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The influence of the EU on Britain.

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  • This is apparently a story behind the FT paywall, and it is similar to the story about stockpiling rations to prepare for the no deal brexit, which to me seems inevitable now.
    It turns out that Northern Ireland can't generate enough energy from it's own resources, and imports it from the south as part of some kind of whole land mass agreement. Anyway Dominic Rabb in preparing for the no deal brexit is going to have to get floating generators on ships obviously to park off the coast of NI in order to supply it's energy needs.
    This is the kind of practical detail I like to know about. When voting leave all those people (who knew what they were voting for how dare we suggest otherwise) were cool about a hard border, costs involving food storage and NI energy supply problems.
    It is no good telling me I am creating another version of operation fear, the actual brexiter UK government is having to face up to operation reality.
    Still if the lights suddenly go off when a midwife is helping with a tricky home birth in Bangor, blue passports eh....a price well worth paying for that.
  • Even more shocking that he is admired by working class Brexit voters for 'saying it like it is'. All just a big con.

    It's worse than a con, he's running the biggest short in UK history. He's basically shorting the entire UK economy. His investment firm has been betting (and advising it's clients to bet) on the UK economy going down, whilst he has been ensuring it happens. Idiots like Chippy call remainers traitors, whilst support a 100% genuine traitor, deliberately pursuing the course that causes maximum damage to the UK in order to maximise his companies profits at all our expense.
    Posh boys are usually the biggest traitors of the lot but reassuringly people believe in them. If the country went belly up Mogg would stand there with his ridiculous suit and smirk whilst making some obscure remark in Latin.
  • seth plum said:

    This is apparently a story behind the FT paywall, and it is similar to the story about stockpiling rations to prepare for the no deal brexit, which to me seems inevitable now.
    It turns out that Northern Ireland can't generate enough energy from it's own resources, and imports it from the south as part of some kind of whole land mass agreement. Anyway Dominic Rabb in preparing for the no deal brexit is going to have to get floating generators on ships obviously to park off the coast of NI in order to supply it's energy needs.
    This is the kind of practical detail I like to know about. When voting leave all those people (who knew what they were voting for how dare we suggest otherwise) were cool about a hard border, costs involving food storage and NI energy supply problems.
    It is no good telling me I am creating another version of operation fear, the actual brexiter UK government is having to face up to operation reality.
    Still if the lights suddenly go off when a midwife is helping with a tricky home birth in Bangor, blue passports eh....a price well worth paying for that.

    I personally can't see this happening but the fact that the UK government is having to waste time and money even planning for it is ridiculous...

    https://independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-no-deal-northern-ireland-eu-withdrawal-electricity-energy-crisis-barge-irish-sea-a8443181.html
  • It' s not just N. Ireland, the rest of the UK imports a large amount of its electricity from Europe. There's a whole complicated pile of EU agreements on supply and price setting that need to transposed/renegotiated for a non-EU UK now. Nobody seems to be in a rush to sort that out either.
  • Not very patriotic to support someone who is going to profit from the collapse of the country. Some of the panto villains leading the Leave campaign and subsequent calls to go over the cliff probably can't believe how many decent folk are happy to line up behind them despite it going against their own interests or livelihood.
  • ''Martin Selmayr's tweet, which came minutes after England's defeat in the semi-final,
    has been described as "graceless".

    Pretty well sums up most of the EU's official wankers!
  • ''Martin Selmayr's tweet, which came minutes after England's defeat in the semi-final,
    has been described as "graceless".

    Pretty well sums up most of the EU's official wankers!

    He sent the exact same one when England qualified for the Semis, so stop being such a snowflake
  • Missed It said:

    It' s not just N. Ireland, the rest of the UK imports a large amount of its electricity from Europe. There's a whole complicated pile of EU agreements on supply and price setting that need to transposed/renegotiated for a non-EU UK now. Nobody seems to be in a rush to sort that out either.

    The situation is exacerbated by the current political gridlock in Northern Ireland. The political paralysis displayed by the Secretary of State and her predecessor gives no real hope for improvement.

    The Courts have made clear (in a case regarding a waste incinerator, ironically designed to generate power at a time when existing generation is coming to the end of its lifespan) that the Civil Service cannot make any decisions, in the absence of Minsters, that would have been subject to Ministerial sign off (including relatively minor decisions). Ministers, of some sort, are legally an essential requirement for any government, good or bad, in Northern Ireland - the Secretary of State has the power and the moral political obligation to ensure that there are Ministers, even without a functioning Assembly, but has signally and repeatedly failed to grasp the nettle...

    The introduction of North-South interconnector is an infrastructure project that requires Ministerial approval, which means that it cannot progress any further than it has to date, unless there is a change of heart within HMG.

    The only consolation that I can glean from it all is that it is clear that the handling of Northern Ireland proves that the Government's handling of Brexit is not uniquely incompetent...
  • I think Croatia joining the EU is now just about the only rational argument left for us leaving.
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  • edited July 12

    seth plum said:

    This is apparently a story behind the FT paywall, and it is similar to the story about stockpiling rations to prepare for the no deal brexit, which to me seems inevitable now.
    It turns out that Northern Ireland can't generate enough energy from it's own resources, and imports it from the south as part of some kind of whole land mass agreement. Anyway Dominic Rabb in preparing for the no deal brexit is going to have to get floating generators on ships obviously to park off the coast of NI in order to supply it's energy needs.
    This is the kind of practical detail I like to know about. When voting leave all those people (who knew what they were voting for how dare we suggest otherwise) were cool about a hard border, costs involving food storage and NI energy supply problems.
    It is no good telling me I am creating another version of operation fear, the actual brexiter UK government is having to face up to operation reality.
    Still if the lights suddenly go off when a midwife is helping with a tricky home birth in Bangor, blue passports eh....a price well worth paying for that.

    I'll admit, I hadn't read Varoufakis "Adults in the Room" before I voted. The "reality" you refer to is to accept we are not negotiating with adults. No one foresaw the extent to which the EU has so much in common with Mr Trump's spoiled brat bullying approach.

    Tell me in who's interests it is for an energy deal not to be agreed for Northern Ireland? No one's. Trump says he'll build a wall, the EU says we'll build a wall and turn off access to energy.

    Remainers should apply the same objectivity to Trump's spoiled brat - "it's my ball" - approach as they do to the EU's. Instead, the UK is ridiculed for daring to believe the EU would behave like an adult.




    If the 27 remaining nations of the EU don't change their rules and treaty's for an exiting member, then they are big bullies?
  • seth plum said:

    This is apparently a story behind the FT paywall, and it is similar to the story about stockpiling rations to prepare for the no deal brexit, which to me seems inevitable now.
    It turns out that Northern Ireland can't generate enough energy from it's own resources, and imports it from the south as part of some kind of whole land mass agreement. Anyway Dominic Rabb in preparing for the no deal brexit is going to have to get floating generators on ships obviously to park off the coast of NI in order to supply it's energy needs.
    This is the kind of practical detail I like to know about. When voting leave all those people (who knew what they were voting for how dare we suggest otherwise) were cool about a hard border, costs involving food storage and NI energy supply problems.
    It is no good telling me I am creating another version of operation fear, the actual brexiter UK government is having to face up to operation reality.
    Still if the lights suddenly go off when a midwife is helping with a tricky home birth in Bangor, blue passports eh....a price well worth paying for that.

    I'll admit, I hadn't read Varoufakis "Adults in the Room" before I voted. The "reality" you refer to is to accept we are not negotiating with adults. No one foresaw the extent to which the EU has so much in common with Mr Trump's spoiled brat bullying approach.

    Tell me in who's interests it is for an energy deal not to be agreed for Northern Ireland? No one's. Trump says he'll build a wall, the EU says we'll build a wall and turn off access to energy.

    Remainers should apply the same objectivity to Trump's spoiled brat - "it's my ball" - approach as they do to the EU's. Instead, the UK is ridiculed for daring to believe the EU would behave like an adult.




    Sorry, but where does it state that the EU are going to pull the plug?

    From the Independent piece above: "...However, if no Brexit deal is agreed Whitehall fears suppliers in the Irish Republic could cut off power because the UK would no longer be part of the European electricity market."
  • seth plum said:

    This is apparently a story behind the FT paywall, and it is similar to the story about stockpiling rations to prepare for the no deal brexit, which to me seems inevitable now.
    It turns out that Northern Ireland can't generate enough energy from it's own resources, and imports it from the south as part of some kind of whole land mass agreement. Anyway Dominic Rabb in preparing for the no deal brexit is going to have to get floating generators on ships obviously to park off the coast of NI in order to supply it's energy needs.
    This is the kind of practical detail I like to know about. When voting leave all those people (who knew what they were voting for how dare we suggest otherwise) were cool about a hard border, costs involving food storage and NI energy supply problems.
    It is no good telling me I am creating another version of operation fear, the actual brexiter UK government is having to face up to operation reality.
    Still if the lights suddenly go off when a midwife is helping with a tricky home birth in Bangor, blue passports eh....a price well worth paying for that.

    I'll admit, I hadn't read Varoufakis "Adults in the Room" before I voted. The "reality" you refer to is to accept we are not negotiating with adults. No one foresaw the extent to which the EU has so much in common with Mr Trump's spoiled brat bullying approach.

    Tell me in who's interests it is for an energy deal not to be agreed for Northern Ireland? No one's. Trump says he'll build a wall, the EU says we'll build a wall and turn off access to energy.

    Remainers should apply the same objectivity to Trump's spoiled brat - "it's my ball" - approach as they do to the EU's. Instead, the UK is ridiculed for daring to believe the EU would behave like an adult.




    Tell me why we hear that no deal is better than a bad deal, and there have to be contingency plans for that no deal.
    This is nothing to do with any kind of bullying spoilt brat approach from the EU it is something initiated by the 'grown ups' in the UK all by themselves.
    To answer your question I don't believe it is in anybody's interest not to have an energy deal in Northern Ireland. But as I say, leaving without a deal is an option suggested by the UK.
    Now let me ask you a question, what is the upside of all this brexit malarkey you ushered in?
  • White Papers out.

    https://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44807741

    Government somehow didn't follow convention in letting Opposition have advance copies.
  • seth plum said:

    seth plum said:

    This is apparently a story behind the FT paywall, and it is similar to the story about stockpiling rations to prepare for the no deal brexit, which to me seems inevitable now.
    It turns out that Northern Ireland can't generate enough energy from it's own resources, and imports it from the south as part of some kind of whole land mass agreement. Anyway Dominic Rabb in preparing for the no deal brexit is going to have to get floating generators on ships obviously to park off the coast of NI in order to supply it's energy needs.
    This is the kind of practical detail I like to know about. When voting leave all those people (who knew what they were voting for how dare we suggest otherwise) were cool about a hard border, costs involving food storage and NI energy supply problems.
    It is no good telling me I am creating another version of operation fear, the actual brexiter UK government is having to face up to operation reality.
    Still if the lights suddenly go off when a midwife is helping with a tricky home birth in Bangor, blue passports eh....a price well worth paying for that.

    I'll admit, I hadn't read Varoufakis "Adults in the Room" before I voted. The "reality" you refer to is to accept we are not negotiating with adults. No one foresaw the extent to which the EU has so much in common with Mr Trump's spoiled brat bullying approach.

    Tell me in who's interests it is for an energy deal not to be agreed for Northern Ireland? No one's. Trump says he'll build a wall, the EU says we'll build a wall and turn off access to energy.

    Remainers should apply the same objectivity to Trump's spoiled brat - "it's my ball" - approach as they do to the EU's. Instead, the UK is ridiculed for daring to believe the EU would behave like an adult.




    Tell me why we hear that no deal is better than a bad deal, and there have to be contingency plans for that no deal.
    This is nothing to do with any kind of bullying spoilt brat approach from the EU it is something initiated by the 'grown ups' in the UK all by themselves.
    To answer your question I don't believe it is in anybody's interest not to have an energy deal in Northern Ireland. But as I say, leaving without a deal is an option suggested by the UK.
    Now let me ask you a question, what is the upside of all this brexit malarkey you ushered in?
    Leaving without a deal is not an option, it is a default position if the EU do not negotiate as adults and we are offered a half baked arrangement that leaves the UK more disadvantaged than being in the EU. We can control our future with a no deal, but not with a bad deal tied to the EU without participation in its governance. We can't go back in, so we have to just leave with no deal - get it?

    The upside is avoiding the downsides of being in the EU as its protectionist and undemocratic constitution diminishes in global relevance and implodes, when the can which is the Euro crisis, can no longer be kicked down the road. I'm waiting for the experts to put some numbers on how that would hit our GDP growth if it happened.

    As I've stated on many occasions, the Brexit downside in GDP terms is insignificant compared to the downside we are experiencing with low productivity. We have more chance of addressing low productivity outside the EU's cosy protectionist blanket as it inhibits innovation and encourages use of an over supply of cheap imported labour to increase profits without needing to invest, rather than through capital investment that improves productivity.

    The myopic view of most Remainers just feeds off Project Fear and an acceptance of the EU's right to behave like a spoiled brat with, as your question suggests, no idea or attempt to envision what a post Brexit World might deliver. Innovation comes from the necessity to survive, and complacency comes from not having to fend for yourself and relying on nanny to run your life.

    Brexit = Innovation and growth
    EU = Complacency and treading water
  • seth plum said:

    This is apparently a story behind the FT paywall, and it is similar to the story about stockpiling rations to prepare for the no deal brexit, which to me seems inevitable now.
    It turns out that Northern Ireland can't generate enough energy from it's own resources, and imports it from the south as part of some kind of whole land mass agreement. Anyway Dominic Rabb in preparing for the no deal brexit is going to have to get floating generators on ships obviously to park off the coast of NI in order to supply it's energy needs.
    This is the kind of practical detail I like to know about. When voting leave all those people (who knew what they were voting for how dare we suggest otherwise) were cool about a hard border, costs involving food storage and NI energy supply problems.
    It is no good telling me I am creating another version of operation fear, the actual brexiter UK government is having to face up to operation reality.
    Still if the lights suddenly go off when a midwife is helping with a tricky home birth in Bangor, blue passports eh....a price well worth paying for that.

    I'll admit, I hadn't read Varoufakis "Adults in the Room" before I voted. The "reality" you refer to is to accept we are not negotiating with adults. No one foresaw the extent to which the EU has so much in common with Mr Trump's spoiled brat bullying approach.

    Tell me in who's interests it is for an energy deal not to be agreed for Northern Ireland? No one's. Trump says he'll build a wall, the EU says we'll build a wall and turn off access to energy.

    Remainers should apply the same objectivity to Trump's spoiled brat - "it's my ball" - approach as they do to the EU's. Instead, the UK is ridiculed for daring to believe the EU would behave like an adult.




    Sorry, but where does it state that the EU are going to pull the plug?

    From the Independent piece above: "...However, if no Brexit deal is agreed Whitehall fears suppliers in the Irish Republic could cut off power because the UK would no longer be part of the European electricity market."
    That's like saying its the hangman that kills you not the Judge who sentenced you to death.
  • If I was a Brexiter - even a hard Brexiter I would be happy for a softer Brexit now. It would be a position to build on - why everything has to be done so quickly bemuses me. Speed is often the enemy of doing things properly. Anyway, If I was a Brexiter I would be looking at it in steps.

    The demands for a Hard Brexit where there is absolutely no evidence that is what the majority of the public want will only make Brexit less likely.

    EU tax evasion regulations come in to force next year?
    As I mentioned many many pages ago, Rees-Mogg will personally trouser £23+million if we're out of the EU before those regulations come in, hence his push for a no-deal (and therefore quick) exit. As always, follow the money, none of them are pushing a no-deal Brexit on ideological grounds.
    To be honest if anybody offered us a fraction of that amount, we would support Brexit.
  • seth plum said:

    seth plum said:

    This is apparently a story behind the FT paywall, and it is similar to the story about stockpiling rations to prepare for the no deal brexit, which to me seems inevitable now.
    It turns out that Northern Ireland can't generate enough energy from it's own resources, and imports it from the south as part of some kind of whole land mass agreement. Anyway Dominic Rabb in preparing for the no deal brexit is going to have to get floating generators on ships obviously to park off the coast of NI in order to supply it's energy needs.
    This is the kind of practical detail I like to know about. When voting leave all those people (who knew what they were voting for how dare we suggest otherwise) were cool about a hard border, costs involving food storage and NI energy supply problems.
    It is no good telling me I am creating another version of operation fear, the actual brexiter UK government is having to face up to operation reality.
    Still if the lights suddenly go off when a midwife is helping with a tricky home birth in Bangor, blue passports eh....a price well worth paying for that.

    I'll admit, I hadn't read Varoufakis "Adults in the Room" before I voted. The "reality" you refer to is to accept we are not negotiating with adults. No one foresaw the extent to which the EU has so much in common with Mr Trump's spoiled brat bullying approach.

    Tell me in who's interests it is for an energy deal not to be agreed for Northern Ireland? No one's. Trump says he'll build a wall, the EU says we'll build a wall and turn off access to energy.

    Remainers should apply the same objectivity to Trump's spoiled brat - "it's my ball" - approach as they do to the EU's. Instead, the UK is ridiculed for daring to believe the EU would behave like an adult.




    Tell me why we hear that no deal is better than a bad deal, and there have to be contingency plans for that no deal.
    This is nothing to do with any kind of bullying spoilt brat approach from the EU it is something initiated by the 'grown ups' in the UK all by themselves.
    To answer your question I don't believe it is in anybody's interest not to have an energy deal in Northern Ireland. But as I say, leaving without a deal is an option suggested by the UK.
    Now let me ask you a question, what is the upside of all this brexit malarkey you ushered in?
    Leaving without a deal is not an option, it is a default position if the EU do not negotiate as adults and we are offered a half baked arrangement that leaves the UK more disadvantaged than being in the EU. We can control our future with a no deal, but not with a bad deal tied to the EU without participation in its governance. We can't go back in, so we have to just leave with no deal - get it?

    The upside is avoiding the downsides of being in the EU as its protectionist and undemocratic constitution diminishes in global relevance and implodes, when the can which is the Euro crisis, can no longer be kicked down the road. I'm waiting for the experts to put some numbers on how that would hit our GDP growth if it happened.

    As I've stated on many occasions, the Brexit downside in GDP terms is insignificant compared to the downside we are experiencing with low productivity. We have more chance of addressing low productivity outside the EU's cosy protectionist blanket as it inhibits innovation and encourages use of an over supply of cheap imported labour to increase profits without needing to invest, rather than through capital investment that improves productivity.

    The myopic view of most Remainers just feeds off Project Fear and an acceptance of the EU's right to behave like a spoiled brat with, as your question suggests, no idea or attempt to envision what a post Brexit World might deliver. Innovation comes from the necessity to survive, and complacency comes from not having to fend for yourself and relying on nanny to run your life.

    Brexit = Innovation and growth
    EU = Complacency and treading water

    You say 'Leaving without a deal is not an option, it is a default position if the EU do not negotiate as 'adults' but I disagree, leaving without a deal is an option, as is keeping 'negotiations' going for more or less ever, as is making a deal.
    Leaving without a deal became an option, a deliberate choice by those who voted brexit without having any idea how to do it, if you like it was a deliberate fall back position that was anticipated as any option would be.
    If we can control our future with a no deal, do you really want me to ask you again about how that control will manifest itself?
    The practical realities such as a hard border, storing up food supplies, floating power stations, cod wars or whatever don't exactly strike me as the adult grown up position, but you would argue that such absurdities await in the corner that the EU is forcing the UK into, I would argue that the UK has freely chosen to occupy such a corner with no help from the EU whatsoever.
    If simply leaving the EU is the upside, then why don't you welcome what you call the default position rather than implying the EU is being childish? The upside is being out of the EU end of, so a no deal scenario is part of that upside you seem to be relishing.
    It is not down to the EU to envision what a post brexit world might deliver, it is down to the UK, and for the UK to lead in making that post brexit world a good thing.
    If productivity is the key to everything, fine. It is like Boxer in Animal Farm saying 'I must work harder'. If the post brexit dream is that the UK workforce solves the financial downside by working itself into an early grave, then it will at least save money on Health and Social Care costs.
  • seth plum said:

    This is apparently a story behind the FT paywall, and it is similar to the story about stockpiling rations to prepare for the no deal brexit, which to me seems inevitable now.
    It turns out that Northern Ireland can't generate enough energy from it's own resources, and imports it from the south as part of some kind of whole land mass agreement. Anyway Dominic Rabb in preparing for the no deal brexit is going to have to get floating generators on ships obviously to park off the coast of NI in order to supply it's energy needs.
    This is the kind of practical detail I like to know about. When voting leave all those people (who knew what they were voting for how dare we suggest otherwise) were cool about a hard border, costs involving food storage and NI energy supply problems.
    It is no good telling me I am creating another version of operation fear, the actual brexiter UK government is having to face up to operation reality.
    Still if the lights suddenly go off when a midwife is helping with a tricky home birth in Bangor, blue passports eh....a price well worth paying for that.

    I'll admit, I hadn't read Varoufakis "Adults in the Room" before I voted. The "reality" you refer to is to accept we are not negotiating with adults. No one foresaw the extent to which the EU has so much in common with Mr Trump's spoiled brat bullying approach.

    Tell me in who's interests it is for an energy deal not to be agreed for Northern Ireland? No one's. Trump says he'll build a wall, the EU says we'll build a wall and turn off access to energy.

    Remainers should apply the same objectivity to Trump's spoiled brat - "it's my ball" - approach as they do to the EU's. Instead, the UK is ridiculed for daring to believe the EU would behave like an adult.




    Sorry, but where does it state that the EU are going to pull the plug?

    From the Independent piece above: "...However, if no Brexit deal is agreed Whitehall fears suppliers in the Irish Republic could cut off power because the UK would no longer be part of the European electricity market."
    That's like saying its the hangman that kills you not the Judge who sentenced you to death.
    Nope. It's not. You're the one going on about the EU acting like bullies and switching off the lights if we don't do what they tell us to. The reality is a little more complicated and I don't pretend to understand it in any great detail. It seems to me that all parties are in a contractual situation within a larger integrated energy supply framework designed to facilitate the flow, literally, of energy across market borders. This benefits NI because it is unable to meet its own energy needs.

    The UK is the party that has put that framework at risk, not the EU. If the separate suppliers that are signed up to use that framework for cross border supply say the deal's now off because the UK's moved the goalposts then I'm surprised at someone so wedded to the concept of the free market and self responsibility is critical of this. That there is a privately ran enterprise using its market position to it's advantage.

    As I said I think a deal will be struck anyway...but as with so much around us leaving we'll end up paying through the nose for it as a third country.

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  • edited July 12
    As the discussion seems to have moved on to the European Energy Market, it might be worth looking it up: https://ec.europa.eu/energy/en/topics/markets-and-consumers.

    It appears to be very much an innovative approach to providing a secure and fair energy market for all parties in the EU. Brexit will mean that the UK will be outside its remit, and, as the EU Commission has made clear, this includes the possibility, in the absence of agreement, that the currently available legal protections available in the EU will not include the UK.

    It may just be too much hassle for EU energy suppliers to engage in new cross border relationships with UK energy suppliers, lacking in the same level playing field and legal protections that they will enjoy elsewhere in the EU.

    It won't be an EU decision. They can only react to Brexit. If the UK becomes a third party country (not subject to CJEU/ECJ oversight), with diverging rules, regulations and rights, this will influence the decisions made by EU energy supply companies.
  • edited July 12
    A no deal scenario will mean WTO tatriffs but if Boris/Mogg fail to collect them on the NI border, we are also be likely to suffer economic sanctions not just from EU. But hey, F**k business.
  • I note that Dominic Raab, when producing the Government's White Paper today, has suggested, once again, that the UK might not pay the sum agreed in that (80%) part of the Withdrawal Agreement that has been agreed between the UK and EU27, linking this payment to future trade.

    I'm not an expert, but it's absolutely clear that this is not a position that can be entertained by the EU and, if this is the official UK Government stance, it will prove extremely difficult to achieve a binding Withdrawal Agreement, if for no other reason than that the UK would be retreating from what had already been agreed (Phase 1). There really is not enough time for a genuinely negotiated settlement, without adding to the areas that are subject to negotiation.
  • seth plum said:

    seth plum said:

    This is apparently a story behind the FT paywall, and it is similar to the story about stockpiling rations to prepare for the no deal brexit, which to me seems inevitable now.
    It turns out that Northern Ireland can't generate enough energy from it's own resources, and imports it from the south as part of some kind of whole land mass agreement. Anyway Dominic Rabb in preparing for the no deal brexit is going to have to get floating generators on ships obviously to park off the coast of NI in order to supply it's energy needs.
    This is the kind of practical detail I like to know about. When voting leave all those people (who knew what they were voting for how dare we suggest otherwise) were cool about a hard border, costs involving food storage and NI energy supply problems.
    It is no good telling me I am creating another version of operation fear, the actual brexiter UK government is having to face up to operation reality.
    Still if the lights suddenly go off when a midwife is helping with a tricky home birth in Bangor, blue passports eh....a price well worth paying for that.

    I'll admit, I hadn't read Varoufakis "Adults in the Room" before I voted. The "reality" you refer to is to accept we are not negotiating with adults. No one foresaw the extent to which the EU has so much in common with Mr Trump's spoiled brat bullying approach.

    Tell me in who's interests it is for an energy deal not to be agreed for Northern Ireland? No one's. Trump says he'll build a wall, the EU says we'll build a wall and turn off access to energy.

    Remainers should apply the same objectivity to Trump's spoiled brat - "it's my ball" - approach as they do to the EU's. Instead, the UK is ridiculed for daring to believe the EU would behave like an adult.




    Tell me why we hear that no deal is better than a bad deal, and there have to be contingency plans for that no deal.
    This is nothing to do with any kind of bullying spoilt brat approach from the EU it is something initiated by the 'grown ups' in the UK all by themselves.
    To answer your question I don't believe it is in anybody's interest not to have an energy deal in Northern Ireland. But as I say, leaving without a deal is an option suggested by the UK.
    Now let me ask you a question, what is the upside of all this brexit malarkey you ushered in?
    Leaving without a deal is not an option, it is a default position if the EU do not negotiate as adults and we are offered a half baked arrangement that leaves the UK more disadvantaged than being in the EU. We can control our future with a no deal, but not with a bad deal tied to the EU without participation in its governance. We can't go back in, so we have to just leave with no deal - get it?

    The upside is avoiding the downsides of being in the EU as its protectionist and undemocratic constitution diminishes in global relevance and implodes, when the can which is the Euro crisis, can no longer be kicked down the road. I'm waiting for the experts to put some numbers on how that would hit our GDP growth if it happened.

    As I've stated on many occasions, the Brexit downside in GDP terms is insignificant compared to the downside we are experiencing with low productivity. We have more chance of addressing low productivity outside the EU's cosy protectionist blanket as it inhibits innovation and encourages use of an over supply of cheap imported labour to increase profits without needing to invest, rather than through capital investment that improves productivity.

    The myopic view of most Remainers just feeds off Project Fear and an acceptance of the EU's right to behave like a spoiled brat with, as your question suggests, no idea or attempt to envision what a post Brexit World might deliver. Innovation comes from the necessity to survive, and complacency comes from not having to fend for yourself and relying on nanny to run your life.

    Brexit = Innovation and growth
    EU = Complacency and treading water
    So of the 12 odd countries with better productivity stats, ten of them are Northern European with most of them full members of the EU. If we leave can we just copy what they do and innovatively ignore them? The premise of your argument is cliff face fallacy.

    There's no place like innovation. Oh sorry, yes there is in Northern Europe in the EU. Can you please innovate and do everything in our favour? Mind you please do it undemocratically to suit 10% of your leaving population. I'm not against a no deal, just would guess that the quality of Davis, Farage, Johnson, Gove and Mogg might struggle when the cold hand of the free market test any of their imbecilic policy.
  • seth plum said:

    Effort needs to be put in by people in order to vote in an informed way but I wouldn't exclude them for ignorance.
    People are the people they are, not what one would wish them to be.

  • So there we have it, @Southbank and @Dippenhall and other Brexiteers

    Donald Trump has made it absolutely clear that May's approach to Brexit is totally unacceptable to him, and that she needs to be replaced by his "friend" Boris Johnson, who will deliver the Brexit that he, Trump, requires.

    I am sure that you are delighted, and that he is not "interfering in the affairs of a sovereign nation" as Leavers (and possibly you personally, I cannot recall) accused Obama of doing.

    Adults in the room...



  • We should just put Farage Boris and Trump in charge of Brexit - I'm sure it will be fine. They can just slag off foreigners and tell them how crap they are.

    Diplomacy and brains are so last year!
  • So there we have it, @Southbank and @Dippenhall and other Brexiteers

    Donald Trump has made it absolutely clear that May's approach to Brexit is totally unacceptable to him, and that she needs to be replaced by his "friend" Boris Johnson, who will deliver the Brexit that he, Trump, requires.

    I am sure that you are delighted, and that he is not "interfering in the affairs of a sovereign nation" as Leavers (and possibly you personally, I cannot recall) accused Obama of doing.

    Adults in the room...



    Where? all I can see is Verruca Salt stamping her feet and yelling, "Daddy! That's not the result I wanted, make them do it again!".

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Roland Out!