Wasn't it @Swisdom who also previously reported that Fraeye fairly categorically said in casual conversation that SL really is RD's top priority, or is my memory playing tricks on me?
Given that Riga and Fraeye have both participated in the recent upturn in results and both have had an opportunity to get to know and appraise the squad it makes a lot of sense that both of them are involved with the first team next season. And not just for the sanity of the fans!
Is there anything to say that Riga can't be head of the Academy AND in charge of first team affairs, i.e., a director of football with Avory at the Academy and Fraeye and the others running the first team squad. It strikes me that we need one style of football from age 11 through to the first team. So one person manages the strategy, the transition for 16-18 year olds and that same person suggesting the type of player required from elsewhere if the first team is to achieve a certain target in the league.
We should be aware that part of securing Cat 1 status for the Academy requires additional coaches taking the total number of staff to a minimum of 18 and a budget of £2.3M. I believe this might be in excess of £1M more than the current Cat 2 budget? While some of this might be met from additional funding from the FAPL there may still be a cost. Perhaps this might be paid for with enhanced transfer fee income as the Academy hopefully delivers more and more talent. Also it appears that if Chelsea or Arsenal nick a top 14 year old and he then goes on to make 70 Premier League appearances this will generate £1M in compensation.
Riga first team KF youth and watching and learning
If that were the case - with Dyer and Mathew remaining in place - wouldn't it have made more sense to place Fraeye within the Academy straight away, instead of making him 'Assistant Head Coach' for a couple of months and then moving him?
Gets him experience of working with a/the first team in a tense situation but with the older, wiser more experienced head of Riga to actually make the big calls, advised by those who know the players best. RD favours the long game it seems, I expect Fraeye to end up manager/head coach here or Liege eventually but needs more experience. Its the same principle he (RD) applies to players, we'll just have to wait and see if it works...
What would be interesting is who is actually doing the coaching on the training ground. Has Fraeye taken much of a role in this, or has Riga used Dyer and Matthew mainly?
There are 2.25 million players in England and only one Uefa-qualified coach for every 812 people playing the game. Spain, the World Cup favourites, have 408,134 players, giving a ratio of 1:17. In Italy, the world champions, the ratio is 1:48, in France it is 1:96, Germany 1:150 and even Greece, the Euro 2004 winners, have only 180,000 registered players for their 1,100 coaches, a ratio of 1:135.
Wow
Certainly says a lot
I wonder what the reason is though? Is it more expensive over here to start out in coaching? I know Stan Collymore was calling for the basic levels of coaching (Level 1) to be offered for free by the FA. His thought which I agree with is that you start improving standards from the bottom and it has a knock-on effect upwards. Surely we have as many people interested in coaching as other European countries, what is it that stops us?
Well in the case of Germany I know it was part of the big policy overhaul of German football in 2000, when they realised how far they were falling behind ( e.g being thrashed by England and Emile Heskey in their own stadium). And you have to say it has worked.
Riga first team KF youth and watching and learning
If that were the case - with Dyer and Mathew remaining in place - wouldn't it have made more sense to place Fraeye within the Academy straight away, instead of making him 'Assistant Head Coach' for a couple of months and then moving him?
Gets him experience of working with a/the first team in a tense situation but with the older, wiser more experienced head of Riga to actually make the big calls, advised by those who know the players best. RD favours the long game it seems, I expect Fraeye to end up manager/head coach here or Liege eventually but needs more experience. Its the same principle he (RD) applies to players, we'll just have to wait and see if it works...
So despite Grapevine49's long post setting out the relationship between the number of Uefa-qualified coaches and the quality of a country's football and success in World Cups and European Championships - no one is interested in whether Fraeye is one of these many european Uefa-qualified coaches (and if not why not given there are so many and Grapevine49 says Fraeye has been "involved in coaching at a professional or semi professional level for 16yrs") or in cantersaddick's claim above (corroborated by Swisdom) that he "has no coaching qualifications whatsoever"?
Wasn't it @Swisdom who also previously reported that Fraeye fairly categorically said in casual conversation that SL really is RD's top priority, or is my memory playing tricks on me?
Definitely not me. One of the Charlton Live podcasts around the time of the takeover featured an interview with Sven Klaes and he actually said CAFC would be the top of his tree - above even Standard Liege.
Mick - Very good points - I can find no reference to his UEFA qualifications which is odd - when you consider the European model and especially the (7yr) position with Gent. If they were prepared to employ him for that period without a UEFA badge then they must have seen something in him.
With regard to the past few months I suspect the whole positioning was very much on an interim basis with "all hands to the pump". With the number of young players involved I can well see Riga saying he needed another pair of (assumedly familiar to him) hands on board and you could see Fraeye's experience fitting with the squad profile.
What that means for the future is anyone's guess but that the quartet (with Dyer & Matthew), seem to have been able to work so well together says a great deal about the people themselves and the international language/ nature of the fantastic game we all follow.
We again have to be careful about getting into the area of making judgements based on pure assumption (sorry Granpa this what happens when "speculation" takes a life of its own.) For all we know the gentleman may have come over for a 6 month (possibly reasonably well paid) sabbatical and is heading back to familiar pastures with a job well done tick on his CV.
No doubt we will know more in the next few weeks and make appropriate judgements at that time.
they cant reapply for a while for CAT1 so perhaps they won't employ all the coaches yet?
Very true... Think it might be Feb 2016, three years after the Cat 2 award. This ties into the planning application going in recently. It makes sense to me to build the coaching structures and buildings over the same two year period.
There are 2.25 million players in England and only one Uefa-qualified coach for every 812 people playing the game. Spain, the World Cup favourites, have 408,134 players, giving a ratio of 1:17. In Italy, the world champions, the ratio is 1:48, in France it is 1:96, Germany 1:150 and even Greece, the Euro 2004 winners, have only 180,000 registered players for their 1,100 coaches, a ratio of 1:135.
Wow
Certainly says a lot
I wonder what the reason is though? Is it more expensive over here to start out in coaching? I know Stan Collymore was calling for the basic levels of coaching (Level 1) to be offered for free by the FA. His thought which I agree with is that you start improving standards from the bottom and it has a knock-on effect upwards. Surely we have as many people interested in coaching as other European countries, what is it that stops us?
Well in the case of Germany I know it was part of the big policy overhaul of German football in 2000, when they realised how far they were falling behind ( e.g being thrashed by England and Emile Heskey in their own stadium). And you have to say it has worked.
For Italy it's always been that tactics are a huge part of their football. As well as the usual on the pitch coaching it's normal for a group of youngsters to be sat down in a room to study formations or watch successful teams on film. They try and win the match before even getting on the pitch.
There are 2.25 million players in England and only one Uefa-qualified coach for every 812 people playing the game. Spain, the World Cup favourites, have 408,134 players, giving a ratio of 1:17. In Italy, the world champions, the ratio is 1:48, in France it is 1:96, Germany 1:150 and even Greece, the Euro 2004 winners, have only 180,000 registered players for their 1,100 coaches, a ratio of 1:135.
Wow
Certainly says a lot
I wonder what the reason is though? Is it more expensive over here to start out in coaching? I know Stan Collymore was calling for the basic levels of coaching (Level 1) to be offered for free by the FA. His thought which I agree with is that you start improving standards from the bottom and it has a knock-on effect upwards. Surely we have as many people interested in coaching as other European countries, what is it that stops us?
Well in the case of Germany I know it was part of the big policy overhaul of German football in 2000, when they realised how far they were falling behind ( e.g being thrashed by England and Emile Heskey in their own stadium). And you have to say it has worked.
For Italy it's always been that tactics are a huge part of their football. As well as the usual on the pitch coaching it's normal for a group of youngsters to be sat down in a room to study formations or watch successful teams on film. They try and win the match before even getting on the pitch.
Diego even said a few weeks ago that Gus used to make him watch one player for the entire game and learn how that player would read the game, make the right pass etc - on and off the ball, rather than the game itself. Seems to have worked...
Wasn't it @Swisdom who also previously reported that Fraeye fairly categorically said in casual conversation that SL really is RD's top priority, or is my memory playing tricks on me?
Definitely not me. One of the Charlton Live podcasts around the time of the takeover featured an interview with Sven Klaes and he actually said CAFC would be the top of his tree - above even Standard Liege.
Apologies - I've trawled back through and it was @Seth Plum and @Popicon who met him and a chap called Didier in the boardroom back when CP was still in charge. Here's Seth's quote: "I can also add that when popicon asked Karel and Didier about precedent in Roland's network it was Karel who said it was Standard Liege."
Turns out that I have a link to this Karel chappie. I've actually played at Eendracht Zele, on a pre-season tour of Belgium in 1980 for my club Feltham FC. Nice little club, the dressing rooms/clubhouse are behind the goal, with a small covered terrace along one side. It was about the standard of Cray Wanderers / VCD and a similar set up. We played a mixture of first team / reserves and were well beaten 0-7. There was a clear difference in styles of play and they were very good technically, although they did probably have the advantage of being dry, whereas we had been on the Belgian lager after a game the day before at SV Bornem, a team and stadium the equivalent of Dulwich Hamlet.
I'm a manager of a Belgian team and I'm following talented young players and coaches in the area of Flanders. When I googled Fraeye and Charlton I saw this big forum.
I think it's normal that you addicks are hoping for an experienced head coach that you already know. But don't underestimate Roland Duchatelet and the young coaches he's bringing ( like the former unknown coach Guy Luzon who's still making a chance to get Standard into the Champions League) . I'm following Karel Fraeyes career and he's a talented, typical head coach. I've never seen a more talented young coach in our area. As a young player, he had an accident that made an end at a possible career as a player. From then, he started being a coach in all the youth teams and every year, his former teams gave him more responsibility. He became youth manager of AA Gent (highest Belgian level) and different teams of 3th and 4th division wanted him as a head coach. First he made a wrong choice with Sottegem ( players didn't get paid) but then he chose Zele because there, he got the opportunity to build a new team. Young talented players were coming to Zele because he became head coach. He won the titel and this year he was in first position to gain a new title with almost the same team. Higher playing teams were getting prepared to try to get him in but Duchatelet was the smartest and quickest. He worked as a teacher and became at a younger age director of a school. His strongest part is reading the game and coaching and motivating players as a team or individually. You know: Some Belgian first and second class teams were saying: why does a talented coach as Fraeye chooses for Duchatelet and Charlton if he has opportunities in the Belgian first division. So they are underestimating Charlton and the championship too. If they make Fraeye head coach: he will fully use the talent of the Charlton staff and players and he 'll get the best out of the squad.
Every great player and every great coach once was unexperienced at higher levels. And you are right: Maybe Duchatelet doesn't know the better English coaches.. So isn't it normal that he plays it safe at his point of view and chooses good coaches he knows? And at a very good price/quality rate.
Whatever it will be: I hope your beautiful club will get back in the premier league where you belong. Good luck!
Thanks Bertje for that great summary of Karel. I guess we are all afraid of change especially in a direction where none of us know or recognise except it seems for Roland. We are brought up to believe that to succeed in the English division you must have a great experience of it and the players who can win you the title. It seems to us it is a great gamble if we are to go with Karel especially after the season we have just had where all we want is stability and to compete effectively in the Championship, if not more at a later point. Karel is an unknown quantity but if he get the gig then we will support him like we did with Riga. However having spoke with Jose tonight he wouldn't mind taking the role himself if the circumstances were right.
We should be aware that part of securing Cat 1 status for the Academy requires additional coaches taking the total number of staff to a minimum of 18 and a budget of £2.3M. I believe this might be in excess of £1M more than the current Cat 2 budget? While some of this might be met from additional funding from the FAPL there may still be a cost. Perhaps this might be paid for with enhanced transfer fee income as the Academy hopefully delivers more and more talent. Also it appears that if Chelsea or Arsenal nick a top 14 year old and he then goes on to make 70 Premier League appearances this will generate £1M in compensation.
@seriously_red where did you get this info please? Could provide a very useful tool for me!
hahaha Weegie Addick! Do i sound like his agent? Then I should ask my fee! I came over to see a few games of Tottenham and Charlton but unfortunately I'm not a professional coach or agent. Belgian manager is not the same as a coach but is a football advisor of a club. The last time I saw die hard Addick Gary Taylor in the Millennium Suite.. Great Guy. I invited him to see a Belgian game and he promised me to come.
GreenWithEnvy: I completely agree that it's normal to continue the job with Riga and Fraeye as an assistent or in another network club of Duchatelet.
We should be aware that part of securing Cat 1 status for the Academy requires additional coaches taking the total number of staff to a minimum of 18 and a budget of £2.3M. I believe this might be in excess of £1M more than the current Cat 2 budget? While some of this might be met from additional funding from the FAPL there may still be a cost. Perhaps this might be paid for with enhanced transfer fee income as the Academy hopefully delivers more and more talent. Also it appears that if Chelsea or Arsenal nick a top 14 year old and he then goes on to make 70 Premier League appearances this will generate £1M in compensation.
@seriously_red where did you get this info please? Could provide a very useful tool for me!
Google search on elite player performance and cat 1... Not straight forward as there is a load of journalist rubbish about clubs and even a 60 page FA pdf does not nail the basic requirements. Afraid I'm worse than the kids and work at pace never keeping notes or websites! I recall it was an independent article which explains the compensation... Duchatelet also there is an ongoing row between Villa and Arsenal over poaching
I have been lucky to have conversations with Karel, usually before most home games, he always seemed to notice when I was nervous about a game, he clearly had confidence in the team, which usually managed to calm some of my nerves, and he was genuinely pleased that we had reached safety on Tuesday night, he is approachable, really got to like him, and hope he will be around in some capacity next season.
I have only had the one encounter with Karel Fraeye which I have reported on previously. I didn't really know who he was at the time. However now he is around a lot I have reflected on my impression of him some more, and this is from a fan of Chris Powell. The one thought I dismiss is the idea that Karel Fraeye is a Machiavellian figure who, despite being around the club a while before Chris Powell left, in an 'observational capacity', was secretly plotting to get the gig for himself eventually. I really don't want to believe that, and I can't believe it all worked in such a cynical way. My impression of Karel Fraeye was much more positive. He struck me as inquisitive, receptive, and responsive. He was generally relaxed and unphased, and clearly clued up about the football scene in Europe. He seemed to me at the time as a bloke to be reckoned with, he had a confidence about him. I was also struck by his respect for the Duchatelet network, and that he thought it was certainly a serious enterprise to be intelligently regarded. He also clearly acknowledged the financial imperatives of football, enquiring about our attendances, recognising that young players being poached was a 'bad thing', comparing the lower reaches of Belgium football with ours (we are far far stronger), knowing that prem money is better than champions league money, yet saying that Standard Liege are (at the moment, maybe things can change?) the number one club in the network. For what it is worth I thought he was OK, not sinister at all, although when he unexpectedly turned up alongside Jose Riga I wondered wtf was occurring. On a personal level he was very credible, on a football coaching level I wouldn't know, but I suspect with him we are more in Lawrence/Wenger territory than Warnock/Redknapp.
I'm a manager of a Belgian team and I'm following talented young players and coaches in the area of Flanders. When I googled Fraeye and Charlton I saw this big forum.
I think it's normal that you addicks are hoping for an experienced head coach that you already know. But don't underestimate Roland Duchatelet and the young coaches he's bringing ( like the former unknown coach Guy Luzon who's still making a chance to get Standard into the Champions League) . I'm following Karel Fraeyes career and he's a talented, typical head coach. I've never seen a more talented young coach in our area. As a young player, he had an accident that made an end at a possible career as a player. From then, he started being a coach in all the youth teams and every year, his former teams gave him more responsibility. He became youth manager of AA Gent (highest Belgian level) and different teams of 3th and 4th division wanted him as a head coach. First he made a wrong choice with Sottegem ( players didn't get paid) but then he chose Zele because there, he got the opportunity to build a new team. Young talented players were coming to Zele because he became head coach. He won the titel and this year he was in first position to gain a new title with almost the same team. Higher playing teams were getting prepared to try to get him in but Duchatelet was the smartest and quickest. He worked as a teacher and became at a younger age director of a school. His strongest part is reading the game and coaching and motivating players as a team or individually. You know: Some Belgian first and second class teams were saying: why does a talented coach as Fraeye chooses for Duchatelet and Charlton if he has opportunities in the Belgian first division. So they are underestimating Charlton and the championship too. If they make Fraeye head coach: he will fully use the talent of the Charlton staff and players and he 'll get the best out of the squad.
Every great player and every great coach once was unexperienced at higher levels. And you are right: Maybe Duchatelet doesn't know the better English coaches.. So isn't it normal that he plays it safe at his point of view and chooses good coaches he knows? And at a very good price/quality rate.
Whatever it will be: I hope your beautiful club will get back in the premier league where you belong. Good luck!
Thanks for the info Karel, see you at the valley soon
Comments
Wasn't it @Swisdom who also previously reported that Fraeye fairly categorically said in casual conversation that SL really is RD's top priority, or is my memory playing tricks on me?
Is there anything to say that Riga can't be head of the Academy AND in charge of first team affairs, i.e., a director of football with Avory at the Academy and Fraeye and the others running the first team squad. It strikes me that we need one style of football from age 11 through to the first team. So one person manages the strategy, the transition for 16-18 year olds and that same person suggesting the type of player required from elsewhere if the first team is to achieve a certain target in the league.
We should be aware that part of securing Cat 1 status for the Academy requires additional coaches taking the total number of staff to a minimum of 18 and a budget of £2.3M. I believe this might be in excess of £1M more than the current Cat 2 budget? While some of this might be met from additional funding from the FAPL there may still be a cost. Perhaps this might be paid for with enhanced transfer fee income as the Academy hopefully delivers more and more talent. Also it appears that if Chelsea or Arsenal nick a top 14 year old and he then goes on to make 70 Premier League appearances this will generate £1M in compensation.
Well in the case of Germany I know it was part of the big policy overhaul of German football in 2000, when they realised how far they were falling behind ( e.g being thrashed by England and Emile Heskey in their own stadium). And you have to say it has worked.
With regard to the past few months I suspect the whole positioning was very much on an interim basis with "all hands to the pump". With the number of young players involved I can well see Riga saying he needed another pair of (assumedly familiar to him) hands on board and you could see Fraeye's experience fitting with the squad profile.
What that means for the future is anyone's guess but that the quartet (with Dyer & Matthew), seem to have been able to work so well together says a great deal about the people themselves and the international language/ nature of the fantastic game we all follow.
We again have to be careful about getting into the area of making judgements based on pure assumption (sorry Granpa this what happens when "speculation" takes a life of its own.) For all we know the gentleman may have come over for a 6 month (possibly reasonably well paid) sabbatical and is heading back to familiar pastures with a job well done tick on his CV.
No doubt we will know more in the next few weeks and make appropriate judgements at that time.
For Italy it's always been that tactics are a huge part of their football. As well as the usual on the pitch coaching it's normal for a group of youngsters to be sat down in a room to study formations or watch successful teams on film. They try and win the match before even getting on the pitch.
For Italy it's always been that tactics are a huge part of their football. As well as the usual on the pitch coaching it's normal for a group of youngsters to be sat down in a room to study formations or watch successful teams on film. They try and win the match before even getting on the pitch.Diego even said a few weeks ago that Gus used to make him watch one player for the entire game and learn how that player would read the game, make the right pass etc - on and off the ball, rather than the game itself. Seems to have worked...
Also, chuck in groundsman duties & perhaps man a turnstyle :-)
When I googled Fraeye and Charlton I saw this big forum.
I think it's normal that you addicks are hoping for an experienced head coach that you already know.
But don't underestimate Roland Duchatelet and the young coaches he's bringing ( like the former unknown coach Guy Luzon who's still making a chance to get Standard into the Champions League) .
I'm following Karel Fraeyes career and he's a talented, typical head coach. I've never seen a more talented young coach in our area.
As a young player, he had an accident that made an end at a possible career as a player.
From then, he started being a coach in all the youth teams and every year, his former teams gave him more responsibility.
He became youth manager of AA Gent (highest Belgian level) and different teams of 3th and 4th division wanted him as a head coach.
First he made a wrong choice with Sottegem ( players didn't get paid) but then he chose Zele because there, he got the opportunity to build a new team. Young talented players were coming to Zele because he became head coach.
He won the titel and this year he was in first position to gain a new title with almost the same team.
Higher playing teams were getting prepared to try to get him in but Duchatelet was the smartest and quickest.
He worked as a teacher and became at a younger age director of a school.
His strongest part is reading the game and coaching and motivating players as a team or individually.
You know: Some Belgian first and second class teams were saying: why does a talented coach as Fraeye chooses for Duchatelet and Charlton if he has opportunities in the Belgian first division. So they are underestimating Charlton and the championship too.
If they make Fraeye head coach: he will fully use the talent of the Charlton staff and players and he 'll get the best out of the squad.
Every great player and every great coach once was unexperienced at higher levels.
And you are right: Maybe Duchatelet doesn't know the better English coaches.. So isn't it normal that he plays it safe at his point of view and chooses good coaches he knows?
And at a very good price/quality rate.
Whatever it will be: I hope your beautiful club will get back in the premier league where you belong.
Good luck!
@seriously_red where did you get this info please? Could provide a very useful tool for me!
I came over to see a few games of Tottenham and Charlton but unfortunately I'm not a professional coach or agent.
Belgian manager is not the same as a coach but is a football advisor of a club.
The last time I saw die hard Addick Gary Taylor in the Millennium Suite.. Great Guy.
I invited him to see a Belgian game and he promised me to come.
GreenWithEnvy: I completely agree that it's normal to continue the job with Riga and Fraeye as an assistent or in another network club of Duchatelet.
zamante.com/uk/profile/football-coach/karelfraeye/view/contact
No idea how accurate that is, especially if he has told people in person that he has no badges, but thought it might be relevant here.
The one thought I dismiss is the idea that Karel Fraeye is a Machiavellian figure who, despite being around the club a while before Chris Powell left, in an 'observational capacity', was secretly plotting to get the gig for himself eventually. I really don't want to believe that, and I can't believe it all worked in such a cynical way.
My impression of Karel Fraeye was much more positive. He struck me as inquisitive, receptive, and responsive. He was generally relaxed and unphased, and clearly clued up about the football scene in Europe. He seemed to me at the time as a bloke to be reckoned with, he had a confidence about him. I was also struck by his respect for the Duchatelet network, and that he thought it was certainly a serious enterprise to be intelligently regarded.
He also clearly acknowledged the financial imperatives of football, enquiring about our attendances, recognising that young players being poached was a 'bad thing', comparing the lower reaches of Belgium football with ours (we are far far stronger), knowing that prem money is better than champions league money, yet saying that Standard Liege are (at the moment, maybe things can change?) the number one club in the network.
For what it is worth I thought he was OK, not sinister at all, although when he unexpectedly turned up alongside Jose Riga I wondered wtf was occurring. On a personal level he was very credible, on a football coaching level I wouldn't know, but I suspect with him we are more in Lawrence/Wenger territory than Warnock/Redknapp.