Attention: Please take a moment to consider our terms and conditions before posting.
A petition to ban racists from football.
Comments
-
Do you believe your point of view is the definitive position - that taking the knee isn't divisive? Its that sort of entrenched view and "doubling down" that will stop this issue from being resolved - there is an end goal here and not accepting different viewpoints is a barrier to achieving it.seth plum said:
I don’t have the power to tell the footballers to change their protest method.SporadicAddick said:
In which case, test it - change the protest to something less "divisive" - if they still boo, then your point is correct and there is no debate.seth plum said:Speaking purely personally I don’t believe people who say they boo because of politics or association with BLM.
I think it is a disingenuous smokescreen distraction argument designed to cover up a real desire to express their racism.
That is a personal opinion.
Anyway it is not divisive from my point of view but a thoroughly good and justified action.
3 -
do they? only when they play like shit possibly but I don't ever remember people booing black players purely because they are black. maybe in the past but haven't witnessed this in the 25 years plus that i have been following/attending Charlton.Chizz said:
I genuinely cannot believe someone is asking this question.DOUCHER said:
i said i'm just a visitor to this topic - it was a suggestion - i don't know the history, i do know why people are booing, whether they are misinformed or not - going round in circles here - cut the link to the BLM knee thing and see what happens - do people boo on red, white and black day? Do people boo any of our black players? no - it has nothing to do with booing black people or the anti racist stance in my opinion so whether i and those booing are uneducated to the origins of the knee is irrelevantGrapevine49 said:Doucher you are helping no one - least of all yourself. There is no value to repeating the same assertion ignoring the challenge I posed. If you have genuinely held conversations about racial protest with black people how on earth did you not know TTK did not originate with the BLM political movement?
Stop posturing and posing deflection upon deflection.
Drew Brees a US Quarter Back spent over 20yrs in a football locker room with up to 70% of his playing colleagues being black and their life challenges still did not register. He even went on annual charity exercises among the community and he still didn’t get it. He had spent his life looking the other way. He gets it now because after an entirely inappropriate comment his locker room colleagues gave him the message loud and clear.
So either you are not asking the right questions or you are not listening.
I ask you again go back to these black acquaintances and ask just when they will have the « conversation « with their children about handling racial intolerance. I would quite like to know because I am grandfather to two delightful mixed race grand daughters.
That is real lives. That is their reality.
YES. THEY. DO.5 -
What does 'stop the issue being resolved' mean? It seems like you're suggesting that 'the issue' is some people have been upset by the method the players have chosen to call for improvements to be made, specifically in terms of inclusion and equality. That isn't the issue that needs fixing. The issue that needs resolving is racism and exclusion.SporadicAddick said:
Do you believe your point of view is the definitive position - that taking the knee isn't divisive? Its that sort of entrenched view and "doubling down" that will stop this issue from being resolved - there is an end goal here and not accepting different viewpoints is a barrier to achieving it.seth plum said:
I don’t have the power to tell the footballers to change their protest method.SporadicAddick said:
In which case, test it - change the protest to something less "divisive" - if they still boo, then your point is correct and there is no debate.seth plum said:Speaking purely personally I don’t believe people who say they boo because of politics or association with BLM.
I think it is a disingenuous smokescreen distraction argument designed to cover up a real desire to express their racism.
That is a personal opinion.
Anyway it is not divisive from my point of view but a thoroughly good and justified action.
Do you think 'the issue' is how the players protest?6 -
I think the team at KIO would disagree that the campaign wasn't (isn't) working. Read their annual report.Cloudworm said:
You must have noticed that the Kick It Out stuff wasn’t working. That’s why it was changed and stepped up.SporadicAddick said:
In which case, test it - change the protest to something less "divisive" - if they still boo, then your point is correct and there is no debate.seth plum said:Speaking purely personally I don’t believe people who say they boo because of politics or association with BLM.
I think it is a disingenuous smokescreen distraction argument designed to cover up a real desire to express their racism.
That is a personal opinion.
We’re well and truly in the realms of ‘protests that white men are comfortable with’ with your lovely t-shirt giveaway.
The second you start referring to peoples colour in the context of their opinion, sadly you risk accentuating the chance of division.3 -
Why is it always the oppressed that have to listen and not the people against progress?SporadicAddick said:
Do you believe your point of view is the definitive position - that taking the knee isn't divisive? Its that sort of entrenched view and "doubling down" that will stop this issue from being resolved - there is an end goal here and not accepting different viewpoints is a barrier to achieving it.seth plum said:
I don’t have the power to tell the footballers to change their protest method.SporadicAddick said:
In which case, test it - change the protest to something less "divisive" - if they still boo, then your point is correct and there is no debate.seth plum said:Speaking purely personally I don’t believe people who say they boo because of politics or association with BLM.
I think it is a disingenuous smokescreen distraction argument designed to cover up a real desire to express their racism.
That is a personal opinion.
Anyway it is not divisive from my point of view but a thoroughly good and justified action.
The protest being divisive is kinda the point. The fact it's divisive is because there are people unhappy that footballers are banding together to be against a form of abuse.
Throw some nonsense like BLM in and you get people already looking for a reason to hate it, finding one.0 -
Neither have I but there again i don't listen out for it - it doesn't even register with me as to whether a player is black or white - its totally irrelevant and i genuinely believe that football is one of the least racist 'industries' there is - there may be a problem with social media idiots abusing star footballers but i think that needs addressing whereby any of these messages can be traced - it must be possible and i don't understand why it isn't but to me, that is a society / technology problem that needs sorting out - to say the kick out racism campaign has failed is nonsense just because this social media thing has reared up. If we were talking about the 70's / 80's etc id say there was a long way to go but not now - and yes, i know i'm not a black guy so how can i know and all that but i talk to people and use my eyes and ears and am quite satisfied that there is very very little racism in football, if any and I remember quite clearly Garth Crooks being showered with bananas when we played spurs in the early 80's. I haven't seen anything vaguely racist in a football ground for over 30 years.Karim_myBagheri said:
do they? only when they play like shit possibly but I don't ever remember people booing black players purely because they are black. maybe in the past but haven't witnessed this in the 25 years plus that i have been following/attending Charlton.Chizz said:
I genuinely cannot believe someone is asking this question.DOUCHER said:
i said i'm just a visitor to this topic - it was a suggestion - i don't know the history, i do know why people are booing, whether they are misinformed or not - going round in circles here - cut the link to the BLM knee thing and see what happens - do people boo on red, white and black day? Do people boo any of our black players? no - it has nothing to do with booing black people or the anti racist stance in my opinion so whether i and those booing are uneducated to the origins of the knee is irrelevantGrapevine49 said:Doucher you are helping no one - least of all yourself. There is no value to repeating the same assertion ignoring the challenge I posed. If you have genuinely held conversations about racial protest with black people how on earth did you not know TTK did not originate with the BLM political movement?
Stop posturing and posing deflection upon deflection.
Drew Brees a US Quarter Back spent over 20yrs in a football locker room with up to 70% of his playing colleagues being black and their life challenges still did not register. He even went on annual charity exercises among the community and he still didn’t get it. He had spent his life looking the other way. He gets it now because after an entirely inappropriate comment his locker room colleagues gave him the message loud and clear.
So either you are not asking the right questions or you are not listening.
I ask you again go back to these black acquaintances and ask just when they will have the « conversation « with their children about handling racial intolerance. I would quite like to know because I am grandfather to two delightful mixed race grand daughters.
That is real lives. That is their reality.
YES. THEY. DO.1 -
It is genuinely tragic. In what mental contortion does the issue of protest become more important than the topic of protest? I genuinely fear for humanity sometimes.Chizz said:
What does 'stop the issue being resolved' mean? It seems like you're suggesting that 'the issue' is some people have been upset by the method the players have chosen to call for improvements to be made, specifically in terms of inclusion and equality. That isn't the issue that needs fixing. The issue that needs resolving is racism and exclusion.SporadicAddick said:
Do you believe your point of view is the definitive position - that taking the knee isn't divisive? Its that sort of entrenched view and "doubling down" that will stop this issue from being resolved - there is an end goal here and not accepting different viewpoints is a barrier to achieving it.seth plum said:
I don’t have the power to tell the footballers to change their protest method.SporadicAddick said:
In which case, test it - change the protest to something less "divisive" - if they still boo, then your point is correct and there is no debate.seth plum said:Speaking purely personally I don’t believe people who say they boo because of politics or association with BLM.
I think it is a disingenuous smokescreen distraction argument designed to cover up a real desire to express their racism.
That is a personal opinion.
Anyway it is not divisive from my point of view but a thoroughly good and justified action.
Do you think 'the issue' is how the players protest?
The action of protest is designed to raise an issue for public debate. Can there be a greater deflection than debating the manner of protest rather than the issue on which the protest was raised.4 -
The issue is the disharmony caused by taking the knee. I deliberately separated that statement from my later statement about "the end goal". So in answer to your question, and taking my specific wording in the context in which it was stated, and in the context of my later wording, yes.Chizz said:
What does 'stop the issue being resolved' mean? It seems like you're suggesting that 'the issue' is some people have been upset by the method the players have chosen to call for improvements to be made, specifically in terms of inclusion and equality. That isn't the issue that needs fixing. The issue that needs resolving is racism and exclusion.SporadicAddick said:
Do you believe your point of view is the definitive position - that taking the knee isn't divisive? Its that sort of entrenched view and "doubling down" that will stop this issue from being resolved - there is an end goal here and not accepting different viewpoints is a barrier to achieving it.seth plum said:
I don’t have the power to tell the footballers to change their protest method.SporadicAddick said:
In which case, test it - change the protest to something less "divisive" - if they still boo, then your point is correct and there is no debate.seth plum said:Speaking purely personally I don’t believe people who say they boo because of politics or association with BLM.
I think it is a disingenuous smokescreen distraction argument designed to cover up a real desire to express their racism.
That is a personal opinion.
Anyway it is not divisive from my point of view but a thoroughly good and justified action.
Do you think 'the issue' is how the players protest?0 -
I've witnessed this. More subtle than an outright "boo for black', but exaggerating the negatives of a black player and accentuating the positives of a white player I've seen and heard a lot. Each mistake, misplaced pass reinforces the bias, each positive contribution does the same tho other way. Especially on the train on the way back from the ground. It's harder to call it out when it's like that, but it's a prevailing undercurrent for a minority of fans.Karim_myBagheri said:
do they? only when they play like shit possibly but I don't ever remember people booing black players purely because they are black. maybe in the past but haven't witnessed this in the 25 years plus that i have been following/attending Charlton.Chizz said:
I genuinely cannot believe someone is asking this question.DOUCHER said:
i said i'm just a visitor to this topic - it was a suggestion - i don't know the history, i do know why people are booing, whether they are misinformed or not - going round in circles here - cut the link to the BLM knee thing and see what happens - do people boo on red, white and black day? Do people boo any of our black players? no - it has nothing to do with booing black people or the anti racist stance in my opinion so whether i and those booing are uneducated to the origins of the knee is irrelevantGrapevine49 said:Doucher you are helping no one - least of all yourself. There is no value to repeating the same assertion ignoring the challenge I posed. If you have genuinely held conversations about racial protest with black people how on earth did you not know TTK did not originate with the BLM political movement?
Stop posturing and posing deflection upon deflection.
Drew Brees a US Quarter Back spent over 20yrs in a football locker room with up to 70% of his playing colleagues being black and their life challenges still did not register. He even went on annual charity exercises among the community and he still didn’t get it. He had spent his life looking the other way. He gets it now because after an entirely inappropriate comment his locker room colleagues gave him the message loud and clear.
So either you are not asking the right questions or you are not listening.
I ask you again go back to these black acquaintances and ask just when they will have the « conversation « with their children about handling racial intolerance. I would quite like to know because I am grandfather to two delightful mixed race grand daughters.
That is real lives. That is their reality.
YES. THEY. DO.2 -
1. Its appropriate that everyone listens to everyones point of view, rather than take an entrenched position..SELR_addicks said:
Why is it always the oppressed that have to listen and not the people against progress?SporadicAddick said:
Do you believe your point of view is the definitive position - that taking the knee isn't divisive? Its that sort of entrenched view and "doubling down" that will stop this issue from being resolved - there is an end goal here and not accepting different viewpoints is a barrier to achieving it.seth plum said:
I don’t have the power to tell the footballers to change their protest method.SporadicAddick said:
In which case, test it - change the protest to something less "divisive" - if they still boo, then your point is correct and there is no debate.seth plum said:Speaking purely personally I don’t believe people who say they boo because of politics or association with BLM.
I think it is a disingenuous smokescreen distraction argument designed to cover up a real desire to express their racism.
That is a personal opinion.
Anyway it is not divisive from my point of view but a thoroughly good and justified action.
The protest being divisive is kinda the point. The fact it's divisive is because there are people unhappy that footballers are banding together to be against a form of abuse.
Throw some nonsense like BLM in and you get people already looking for a reason to hate it, finding one.
2. I don't believe a divisive protest will lead to the outcome I believe most want to achieve.
3. Remove BLM nonsense from the equation and then we can find out who really hates...1 - Sponsored links:
-
It will be the same people that will instead parrot 'keep politics out of football'.SporadicAddick said:
1. Its appropriate that everyone listens to everyones point of view, rather than take an entrenched position..SELR_addicks said:
Why is it always the oppressed that have to listen and not the people against progress?SporadicAddick said:
Do you believe your point of view is the definitive position - that taking the knee isn't divisive? Its that sort of entrenched view and "doubling down" that will stop this issue from being resolved - there is an end goal here and not accepting different viewpoints is a barrier to achieving it.seth plum said:
I don’t have the power to tell the footballers to change their protest method.SporadicAddick said:
In which case, test it - change the protest to something less "divisive" - if they still boo, then your point is correct and there is no debate.seth plum said:Speaking purely personally I don’t believe people who say they boo because of politics or association with BLM.
I think it is a disingenuous smokescreen distraction argument designed to cover up a real desire to express their racism.
That is a personal opinion.
Anyway it is not divisive from my point of view but a thoroughly good and justified action.
The protest being divisive is kinda the point. The fact it's divisive is because there are people unhappy that footballers are banding together to be against a form of abuse.
Throw some nonsense like BLM in and you get people already looking for a reason to hate it, finding one.
2. I don't believe a divisive protest will lead to the outcome I believe most want to achieve.
3. Remove BLM nonsense from the equation and then we can find out who really hates...
You really don't get it. These people will always find something to hate about it.5 -
i work in a large professional company and most of the employees have a degree and a professional qualification - there is a good mix of races at all levels yet since the George Floyd incident, we have seminar after seminar on all this stuff - how we are being racist without realising it etc etc - we have to set objectives as part of our yearly appraisals etc etc, have a diversity moment before we start the meetings etc - my black colleagues who i talk to are genuinely embarrassed by this - they say they have experienced no racism at the company yet we all go along with it because i guess it can't do any harm - the reality is its actually insulting to well developed, intelligent people to have to have this bombardment of 'learnings' all because an incident happened somewhere in a backward bit of america - its box ticking bollox and all the civil disobedience during lockdown because of it was totally wrong and all this 'stuff', totally out of proportion - the knee thing before kick off the same - players are getting abused by a minority of idiots on social media - not by 99.9% of people in a football stadium and this BLM 'stuff' and all the changes that need to happen in our country when wea re so far advanced of most countries in this respect is what i believe is getting some peoples backs up.Grapevine49 said:
It is genuinely tragic. In what mental contortion does the issue of protest become more important than the topic of protest? I genuinely fear for humanity sometimes.Chizz said:
What does 'stop the issue being resolved' mean? It seems like you're suggesting that 'the issue' is some people have been upset by the method the players have chosen to call for improvements to be made, specifically in terms of inclusion and equality. That isn't the issue that needs fixing. The issue that needs resolving is racism and exclusion.SporadicAddick said:
Do you believe your point of view is the definitive position - that taking the knee isn't divisive? Its that sort of entrenched view and "doubling down" that will stop this issue from being resolved - there is an end goal here and not accepting different viewpoints is a barrier to achieving it.seth plum said:
I don’t have the power to tell the footballers to change their protest method.SporadicAddick said:
In which case, test it - change the protest to something less "divisive" - if they still boo, then your point is correct and there is no debate.seth plum said:Speaking purely personally I don’t believe people who say they boo because of politics or association with BLM.
I think it is a disingenuous smokescreen distraction argument designed to cover up a real desire to express their racism.
That is a personal opinion.
Anyway it is not divisive from my point of view but a thoroughly good and justified action.
Do you think 'the issue' is how the players protest?
The action of protest is designed to raise an issue for public debate. Can there be a greater deflection than debating the manner of protest rather than the issue on which the protest was raised.4 -
Take a moment. Because, we can all post stuff without thinking things through properly - I know I am as guilty as many others. But, please, take a moment and think about whether 'the issue', really is 'the disharmony caused by taking the knee'.SporadicAddick said:
The issue is the disharmony caused by taking the knee. I deliberately separated that statement from my later statement about "the end goal". So in answer to your question, and taking my specific wording in the context in which it was stated, and in the context of my later wording, yes.Chizz said:
What does 'stop the issue being resolved' mean? It seems like you're suggesting that 'the issue' is some people have been upset by the method the players have chosen to call for improvements to be made, specifically in terms of inclusion and equality. That isn't the issue that needs fixing. The issue that needs resolving is racism and exclusion.SporadicAddick said:
Do you believe your point of view is the definitive position - that taking the knee isn't divisive? Its that sort of entrenched view and "doubling down" that will stop this issue from being resolved - there is an end goal here and not accepting different viewpoints is a barrier to achieving it.seth plum said:
I don’t have the power to tell the footballers to change their protest method.SporadicAddick said:
In which case, test it - change the protest to something less "divisive" - if they still boo, then your point is correct and there is no debate.seth plum said:Speaking purely personally I don’t believe people who say they boo because of politics or association with BLM.
I think it is a disingenuous smokescreen distraction argument designed to cover up a real desire to express their racism.
That is a personal opinion.
Anyway it is not divisive from my point of view but a thoroughly good and justified action.
Do you think 'the issue' is how the players protest?
Think that through, completely and properly.
If that were 'the issue', then 'the issue' would fully and totally disappear the moment the players decide to end their protest. Racism and inequality would continue, unabated; but 'the issue' would have been thoroughly eradicated. Is it that simple? Is it true to say that 'the issue' is that the players' protest - specifically, the way in which the players have chosen to protest - is 'the issue'?
Or would you say that 'the issue' is, in fact, racism, bigotry, insouciance, prejudice, inequality...?
Take a moment. Because we all post things without thinking them through properly, from time to time. But do you really think the issue is being caused by the players?
1 -
Yes, they do.Karim_myBagheri said:
do they? only when they play like shit possibly but I don't ever remember people booing black players purely because they are black. maybe in the past but haven't witnessed this in the 25 years plus that i have been following/attending Charlton.Chizz said:
I genuinely cannot believe someone is asking this question.DOUCHER said:
i said i'm just a visitor to this topic - it was a suggestion - i don't know the history, i do know why people are booing, whether they are misinformed or not - going round in circles here - cut the link to the BLM knee thing and see what happens - do people boo on red, white and black day? Do people boo any of our black players? no - it has nothing to do with booing black people or the anti racist stance in my opinion so whether i and those booing are uneducated to the origins of the knee is irrelevantGrapevine49 said:Doucher you are helping no one - least of all yourself. There is no value to repeating the same assertion ignoring the challenge I posed. If you have genuinely held conversations about racial protest with black people how on earth did you not know TTK did not originate with the BLM political movement?
Stop posturing and posing deflection upon deflection.
Drew Brees a US Quarter Back spent over 20yrs in a football locker room with up to 70% of his playing colleagues being black and their life challenges still did not register. He even went on annual charity exercises among the community and he still didn’t get it. He had spent his life looking the other way. He gets it now because after an entirely inappropriate comment his locker room colleagues gave him the message loud and clear.
So either you are not asking the right questions or you are not listening.
I ask you again go back to these black acquaintances and ask just when they will have the « conversation « with their children about handling racial intolerance. I would quite like to know because I am grandfather to two delightful mixed race grand daughters.
That is real lives. That is their reality.
YES. THEY. DO.
For the record, in the last 25 years, I have never witnessed murder, VAT fraud, bank robberies, GBH or arson. But I am very sure they exist too.
I believe you if you say you have never witnessed it, even though it's very surprising. I have.3 -
As Trevor Phillips, Tony Blairs advisor said - we've gone too far with all this social engineering and if you keep pushing things too far and denying the differences there are in society, you end up with a reaction and that it what has lead to the likes of Brexit, UKIP and the even more sinister groups rising up. When people in a country start feeling they are being treated as second class citizens when compared to immigrants, resentment builds up. You are never going to solve everything but i don't think the situation in this country is that awful for non white races is it really? The non white people i talk to don't think so that's for sure.1
-
Always an interesting tactic to assume the moral and intellectual high ground and position those that disagree as somehow devoid of thought and humanity...Grapevine49 said:
It is genuinely tragic. In what mental contortion does the issue of protest become more important than the topic of protest? I genuinely fear for humanity sometimes.Chizz said:
What does 'stop the issue being resolved' mean? It seems like you're suggesting that 'the issue' is some people have been upset by the method the players have chosen to call for improvements to be made, specifically in terms of inclusion and equality. That isn't the issue that needs fixing. The issue that needs resolving is racism and exclusion.SporadicAddick said:
Do you believe your point of view is the definitive position - that taking the knee isn't divisive? Its that sort of entrenched view and "doubling down" that will stop this issue from being resolved - there is an end goal here and not accepting different viewpoints is a barrier to achieving it.seth plum said:
I don’t have the power to tell the footballers to change their protest method.SporadicAddick said:
In which case, test it - change the protest to something less "divisive" - if they still boo, then your point is correct and there is no debate.seth plum said:Speaking purely personally I don’t believe people who say they boo because of politics or association with BLM.
I think it is a disingenuous smokescreen distraction argument designed to cover up a real desire to express their racism.
That is a personal opinion.
Anyway it is not divisive from my point of view but a thoroughly good and justified action.
Do you think 'the issue' is how the players protest?
The action of protest is designed to raise an issue for public debate. Can there be a greater deflection than debating the manner of protest rather than the issue on which the protest was raised.
I don't believe this debate deflects the issue - rather it highlights a very real barrier to the effective demonstration of the unity which I genuinely believe exists.3 -
personally I think taking the knee makes fuck all difference and is a bit of a token gesture by the players. (it doesn't bother me that they do it)
they would be better off all throwing their weight behind kick it out and actually get involved.
I'm aware that some players do get involved but if they are all voting to take the knee and claiming they all want to make a difference then get involved and do something2 -
I do get it, but the current process isn't flushing them out - at the moment the hate is hidden behind a screen - remove that screen and the debate ends.SELR_addicks said:
It will be the same people that will instead parrot 'keep politics out of football'.SporadicAddick said:
1. Its appropriate that everyone listens to everyones point of view, rather than take an entrenched position..SELR_addicks said:
Why is it always the oppressed that have to listen and not the people against progress?SporadicAddick said:
Do you believe your point of view is the definitive position - that taking the knee isn't divisive? Its that sort of entrenched view and "doubling down" that will stop this issue from being resolved - there is an end goal here and not accepting different viewpoints is a barrier to achieving it.seth plum said:
I don’t have the power to tell the footballers to change their protest method.SporadicAddick said:
In which case, test it - change the protest to something less "divisive" - if they still boo, then your point is correct and there is no debate.seth plum said:Speaking purely personally I don’t believe people who say they boo because of politics or association with BLM.
I think it is a disingenuous smokescreen distraction argument designed to cover up a real desire to express their racism.
That is a personal opinion.
Anyway it is not divisive from my point of view but a thoroughly good and justified action.
The protest being divisive is kinda the point. The fact it's divisive is because there are people unhappy that footballers are banding together to be against a form of abuse.
Throw some nonsense like BLM in and you get people already looking for a reason to hate it, finding one.
2. I don't believe a divisive protest will lead to the outcome I believe most want to achieve.
3. Remove BLM nonsense from the equation and then we can find out who really hates...
You really don't get it. These people will always find something to hate about it.0 -
The Taking the Knee protest by footballers in England is not part of the protest that rose up after the murder of George Floyd and it obviously does not have the same goals. But, since you raised the issue of George Floyd's murder, and brought up the suggestion that 99.9% of people in a football stadium are different from the minority of idiots on social media, let me ask you a question.DOUCHER said:
i work in a large professional company and most of the employees have a degree and a professional qualification - there is a good mix of races at all levels yet since the George Floyd incident, we have seminar after seminar on all this stuff - how we are being racist without realising it etc etc - we have to set objectives as part of our yearly appraisals etc etc, have a diversity moment before we start the meetings etc - my black colleagues who i talk to are genuinely embarrassed by this - they say they have experienced no racism at the company yet we all go along with it because i guess it can't do any harm - the reality is its actually insulting to well developed, intelligent people to have to have this bombardment of 'learnings' all because an incident happened somewhere in a backward bit of america - its box ticking bollox and all the civil disobedience during lockdown because of it was totally wrong and all this 'stuff', totally out of proportion - the knee thing before kick off the same - players are getting abused by a minority of idiots on social media - not by 99.9% of people in a football stadium and this BLM 'stuff' and all the changes that need to happen in our country when wea re so far advanced of most countries in this respect is what i believe is getting some peoples backs up.Grapevine49 said:
It is genuinely tragic. In what mental contortion does the issue of protest become more important than the topic of protest? I genuinely fear for humanity sometimes.Chizz said:
What does 'stop the issue being resolved' mean? It seems like you're suggesting that 'the issue' is some people have been upset by the method the players have chosen to call for improvements to be made, specifically in terms of inclusion and equality. That isn't the issue that needs fixing. The issue that needs resolving is racism and exclusion.SporadicAddick said:
Do you believe your point of view is the definitive position - that taking the knee isn't divisive? Its that sort of entrenched view and "doubling down" that will stop this issue from being resolved - there is an end goal here and not accepting different viewpoints is a barrier to achieving it.seth plum said:
I don’t have the power to tell the footballers to change their protest method.SporadicAddick said:
In which case, test it - change the protest to something less "divisive" - if they still boo, then your point is correct and there is no debate.seth plum said:Speaking purely personally I don’t believe people who say they boo because of politics or association with BLM.
I think it is a disingenuous smokescreen distraction argument designed to cover up a real desire to express their racism.
That is a personal opinion.
Anyway it is not divisive from my point of view but a thoroughly good and justified action.
Do you think 'the issue' is how the players protest?
The action of protest is designed to raise an issue for public debate. Can there be a greater deflection than debating the manner of protest rather than the issue on which the protest was raised.
It seems that you're suggesting that the vast majority of people don't need to benefit from additional education on the harms of racism, as you're implying that 99.9% act in the right way. Here's the question: what percentage of the population murdered George Floyd? You see the point? Any level of racism is incompatible with a fair society. And it's a fair society that the players are protesting for.
(Also, if you're going to bring up a murder, it would be sensible to call it a murder, rather than the slightly diminishing euphemism 'the George Floyd incident'. George Floyd was not involved in 'an incident'. He was murdered by a racist).8 -
Thanks for the advise on my thought process....Chizz said:
Take a moment. Because, we can all post stuff without thinking things through properly - I know I am as guilty as many others. But, please, take a moment and think about whether 'the issue', really is 'the disharmony caused by taking the knee'.SporadicAddick said:
The issue is the disharmony caused by taking the knee. I deliberately separated that statement from my later statement about "the end goal". So in answer to your question, and taking my specific wording in the context in which it was stated, and in the context of my later wording, yes.Chizz said:
What does 'stop the issue being resolved' mean? It seems like you're suggesting that 'the issue' is some people have been upset by the method the players have chosen to call for improvements to be made, specifically in terms of inclusion and equality. That isn't the issue that needs fixing. The issue that needs resolving is racism and exclusion.SporadicAddick said:
Do you believe your point of view is the definitive position - that taking the knee isn't divisive? Its that sort of entrenched view and "doubling down" that will stop this issue from being resolved - there is an end goal here and not accepting different viewpoints is a barrier to achieving it.seth plum said:
I don’t have the power to tell the footballers to change their protest method.SporadicAddick said:
In which case, test it - change the protest to something less "divisive" - if they still boo, then your point is correct and there is no debate.seth plum said:Speaking purely personally I don’t believe people who say they boo because of politics or association with BLM.
I think it is a disingenuous smokescreen distraction argument designed to cover up a real desire to express their racism.
That is a personal opinion.
Anyway it is not divisive from my point of view but a thoroughly good and justified action.
Do you think 'the issue' is how the players protest?
Think that through, completely and properly.
If that were 'the issue', then 'the issue' would fully and totally disappear the moment the players decide to end their protest. Racism and inequality would continue, unabated; but 'the issue' would have been thoroughly eradicated. Is it that simple? Is it true to say that 'the issue' is that the players' protest - specifically, the way in which the players have chosen to protest - is 'the issue'?
Or would you say that 'the issue' is, in fact, racism, bigotry, insouciance, prejudice, inequality...?
Take a moment. Because we all post things without thinking them through properly, from time to time. But do you really think the issue is being caused by the players?
The "issue" we are discussing here is the issue of booing taking the knee.
Therefore, in the narrow context of the discussion, the answer is yes. There is a direct causal link between that action and the booing.
Remove that action, which is linked by many to a political movement which they oppose (whether we chose to agree with them on that interpretation or not) and which is evidently in and of itself causing division, and we enable a different approach. An approach that doesn't have the same supposed link. If at that point people are still booing, then their defence of political motivation is removed.
All I see is a path to the end goal being interrupted.
For the avoidance of doubt, I fundamentally disagree with the booing of the knee. For the further avoidance of doubt, I believe we would all be better served by an alternative methodology of protest and unity.2 - Sponsored links:
-
I have had discussion regarding the BLM so called movement, the politics, the marxism, the black power salute, the every life (not just black lives) issues. I have been open to trying to understand why people boo, but they do not hold a position that is possible for them to explain, especially when they are given counter truthful information, like the taking of the knee was initiated by a single American Football player not part of a black lives matter organisation designed to overthrow civilization or anything approaching it.SporadicAddick said:
Do you believe your point of view is the definitive position - that taking the knee isn't divisive? Its that sort of entrenched view and "doubling down" that will stop this issue from being resolved - there is an end goal here and not accepting different viewpoints is a barrier to achieving it.seth plum said:
I don’t have the power to tell the footballers to change their protest method.SporadicAddick said:
In which case, test it - change the protest to something less "divisive" - if they still boo, then your point is correct and there is no debate.seth plum said:Speaking purely personally I don’t believe people who say they boo because of politics or association with BLM.
I think it is a disingenuous smokescreen distraction argument designed to cover up a real desire to express their racism.
That is a personal opinion.
Anyway it is not divisive from my point of view but a thoroughly good and justified action.
So there you have it, I have explored the issue to discover if my view is unreasonable or entrenched. If you are suggesting I accept a different viewpoint that justifies the booing then what is that viewpoint? The closest argument against taking the knee is that it will become a tired gesture that has had its day and that's about it.
If you want to propose a different viewpoint for me to accept then go right ahead, I don't want to be a barrier to achieving greater harmony amongst people.0 -
Quick reminder for those who want to rehash the "taking the knee" debate yet again, there's a post on the House of Commoners for that: https://charltonlife.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/89098/taking-a-knee#latest
0
This discussion has been closed.
