I think an internet forum is social media. What happens a lot on here is somebody types something which is then forensically analysed, often for a different meaning than the poster intended. There are a group of people who think they are clever doing that, when of course the opposite is true. This gets us wound up and hating people, which I can be guilty of myself and things can get out of hand.
Many people who hate each other would probably get on in a pub with a pint in their hand. Simply because when you are conversing and somebody misunderstands something, it is easier to ask, or give, clarification and not jump on somebody.
Nothing to do with racism, but I think a forum can follow the same pitfalls of other social media platforms.
I think an internet forum is social media. What happens a lot on here is somebody types something which is then forensically analysed, often for a different meaning than the poster intended. There are a group of people who think they are clever doing that, when of course the opposite is true. This gets us wound up and hating people, which I can be guilty of myself and things can get out of hand.
Many people who hate each other would probably get on in a pub with a pint in their hand. Simply because when you are conversing and somebody misunderstands something, it is easier to ask, or give, clarification and not jump on somebody.
Nothing to do with racism, but I think a forum can follow the same pitfalls of other social media platforms.
Completely agree with all of this. Brilliant post. It is even easier when words are typed, than when they are spoken, to miss (often deliberately) the tone and nuance of what the person is trying to say.
I think an internet forum is social media. What happens a lot on here is somebody types something which is then forensically analysed, often for a different meaning than the poster intended. There are a group of people who think they are clever doing that, when of course the opposite is true. This gets us wound up and hating people, which I can be guilty of myself and things can get out of hand.
Many people who hate each other would probably get on in a pub with a pint in their hand. Simply because when you are conversing and somebody misunderstands something, it is easier to ask, or give, clarification and not jump on somebody.
Nothing to do with racism, but I think a forum can follow the same pitfalls of other social media platforms.
Completely agree with all of this. Brilliant post. It is even easier when words are typed, than when they are spoken, to miss (often deliberately) the tone and nuance of what the person is trying to say.
You're right, of course. As is @MuttleyCAFC, one of my favourite posters (because, while I disagree with some Muttley's posts, I agree with many of them; and they're a poster very quick to clarify anything that could be misconstrued. And usually does so with grace and charm).
The person who delivers a message should always be responsible for how and whether that message is understood. For example, if I don't understand the latest Covid guidelines from the Government, that's Boris Johnson's fault.
Some of the comments on this thread are open to interpretation. And some people might not fully appreciate the tone and nuance of a number of them and misconstrue them. Such as:
'Pompous twats who if they were half as smart as they think they are, would still be twice as smart as they actually are', 'Oh get a grip', 'pathetic', 'prize pedant'.
Let's hope we can draw a line under that this sort of 'jumping on'. We shouldn't use social media (like CL) to abuse other users, particularly on a thread devoted to the prevention of the use of social media to abuse others.
Doesn't include the most popular form of abuse: Direct Messages.
Without the statistics of that, it's useless information. Most UK people would abuse using a way that wouldn't make it a publically available message. Pretty simple.
The 70% figure comes from the Premier League which is a globally supported league. Far different than abuse towards the England national team.
On twitter though you cant send someone a Direct Message unless you follow each other?
Doesn't include the most popular form of abuse: Direct Messages.
Without the statistics of that, it's useless information. Most UK people would abuse using a way that wouldn't make it a publically available message. Pretty simple.
The 70% figure comes from the Premier League which is a globally supported league. Far different than abuse towards the England national team.
On twitter though you cant send someone a Direct Message unless you follow each other?
I think you can if you leave the setting open, could be wrong.
Doesn't include the most popular form of abuse: Direct Messages.
Without the statistics of that, it's useless information. Most UK people would abuse using a way that wouldn't make it a publically available message. Pretty simple.
The 70% figure comes from the Premier League which is a globally supported league. Far different than abuse towards the England national team.
On twitter though you cant send someone a Direct Message unless you follow each other?
I think you can if you leave the setting open, could be wrong.
This is right. Additionally, the default setting is that anyone can send you a DM in Twitter if you are following them. (Even though that's a bit counterintuitive, it works).
I am disappointed that you haven't taken the opportunity to properly explain why you would boo @Billericay Dickie
@bigstemarra - OK... I can see how some people are still equating the taking of the knee with BLM - despite it not originating with them and e.g. Gareth Southgate overtly saying that he and thr players were not aligning themselves with BLM
Would you/people who want to boo the taking of the knee be able to get behind some other symbolic anti racism gesture made by players?
As I said in my post, I have no problem with 'Kick It Out'; quite the reverse. This is a politically neutral movement with none of the BLM baggage which many people, including myself, find very unpalatable. It would be great if the players could revert to supporting this organisation, but I get the feeling that given the 'culture war' vibe around at the moment, both sides are simply going to dig in and refuse to compromise, so the whole shitshow will continue.
I know that taking the knee originated with Kapaernick, but it was adopted by BLM wholesale after the George Floyd murder. BLM banners were then plastered all over EPL stadiums as players then decide to take the knee.
I know that some are trying to separate BLM from TTK, but they are inextricably, demonstrably linked for the above reasons. People can get upset at that, but it's simply a reflection of reality as people began taking the knee at football matches as part of the BLM movement. Trying to argue the two are not connected is a bit silly, really and certainly an insult to peoples' intelligence. Gaslighting on an industrial scale, maybe. Unless someone is either extremely gullible, or terminally stupid, then you are wasting your time trying to tell them not to believe what they see and hear based in objective reality. Please stop.
The timing, (with the GF murder), the banners and the fact that it was actually printed on the back of their shirts is kind of a big hint, don't you think?
Coming back to my point, though - we are surely in territory where we are beyond gestures. It is time for action; boycott social media sites until they do something about the problem, which they can easily do. Why are people letting them get away with it? Where is the anger with amoral twats who run Twitter, for instance? They enable this bullshit. Verified accounts would be a piece of piss for them to set up and would go a large way to stopping the torrent of racist shit from morons that now appears depressingly predictably after matches. Are we really prepared to see this just go on and on? At present, the answer appears to be yes, unfortunately.
Kneeling on a football pitch is not going to make one iota of difference to anything; it is the epitome of virtue signalling. The idea that a genuine racist will see it and somehow see the error of their ways in some Damascene conversion really is beyond laughable. Some people are just c**ts, no matter how much education they get and how much others attempt to appeal to their better nature. Boycotting social media sites until they exercise a duty of care and take some responsibility to see the perpetrators answer for their actions would actually have an effect if enough people did it. So why don't they?
Come on football, the ball is in your court....do you actually want to change things, or is it just more empty platitudes? Because that is where we are. Still. And nothing has changed, unsurprisingly.
Can’t help feeling you may be massively over complicating this. And talk of ‘virtue signalling’ is straight out of the culture wars text book. Players posting about the racism they receive on social media isn’t virtue signalling, it’s just them sharing the reality of their lives, isn’t it? Kneeling certainly isn’t ‘the epitome of virtue signalling’ as again, they are directly reminding the general public of their lived experience. I thought virtue signalling is saying something so that people think you’re virtuous. They’re clearly not doing that.
Boycotting social media would likely have no effect at all unfortunately, and could be seen as denying them their voice.
A couple of football insiders with an interest in anti-racism have told me that Kick It Out, although well meaning, is generally thought to be pretty ineffective.
And lastly, there is no political organisation behind BLM although some of those who vocally support the organisation may sometimes be ‘left wing’, just as those opposing anti-black racism are more likely to be left wing than right wing; Those on the right are more likely to be anti BLM than those on the left.
Or am I grossly oversimplifying this?
I agree with what you say about the amorality of those running Twitter though. There would be far less abuse if people weren't able to post anonymously on social media.
Yes. BLM is an organisation with extreme views that many, such as myself will not condone and they have chosen that as their vehicle of choice, along with all of its violent baggage. Their choice. They don't get to choose how people react to that; it is an individual's right to call it how they see it.
Your point about KIO is interesting, but surely something can be done about that? Choosing to go the way they have and clumsily importing a divisive, intolerant and violent movement wholesale from a different country with different cultural issues will have consequences; I would have hoped that they would have considered that. It also begs the question that although it is less fashionable and edgy, KIO is much more inclusive and has a simple message. I think that it is sad that they decided to bin it, rather than reshape it into something more effective, which would of course take a lot of effort, but would still be achievable.
This thread overall seems like a bit of a reflection of society currently; the same old same old - people have a position and they stick to it and dismiss any opposing arguments/evidence out of hand.....and round in circles we go.
It's like the culture wars writ large; two sides shouting at each other, each convinced that they are correct, neither giving an inch.
Interesting that there are so many arguments back and forth ignoring the problem of online abuse and what to do about it; and the overall consensus here is.....nothing. What's the definition of madness?
We can revisit this thread when the same thing happens again at the World Cup, then
I actually think it is important that we don't allow groups to own gestures like taking the knee. Taking the knee does not originate from the BLM political group and if the people doing it make it clear it has nothing to do with them that is that. Should we have to explain that we are not racists because we have the England flag flying outside the house during the tournament. We had a few. A while ago, we wouldn't because the racists had claimed it, but we took it back from them. Far better to own it than let them have it.
I actually think it is important that we don't allow groups to own gestures like taking the knee. Taking the knee does not originate from the BLM political group and if the people doing it make it clear it has nothing to do with them that is that. Should we have to explain that we are not racists because we have the England flag flying outside the house during the tournament. We had a few. A while ago, we wouldn't because the racists had claimed it, but we took it back from them. Far better to own it than let them have it.
Spot on.
Flag absolutely needs reclaiming from racists and ott nationalists.
Yes. BLM is an organisation with extreme views that many, such as myself will not condone and they have chosen that as their vehicle of choice, along with all of its violent baggage. Their choice. They don't get to choose how people react to that; it is an individual's right to call it how they see it.
Your point about KIO is interesting, but surely something can be done about that? Choosing to go the way they have and clumsily importing a divisive, intolerant and violent movement wholesale from a different country with different cultural issues will have consequences; I would have hoped that they would have considered that. It also begs the question that although it is less fashionable and edgy, KIO is much more inclusive and has a simple message. I think that it is sad that they decided to bin it, rather than reshape it into something more effective, which would of course take a lot of effort, but would still be achievable.
This thread overall seems like a bit of a reflection of society currently; the same old same old - people have a position and they stick to it and dismiss any opposing arguments/evidence out of hand.....and round in circles we go.
It's like the culture wars writ large; two sides shouting at each other, each convinced that they are correct, neither giving an inch.
Interesting that there are so many arguments back and forth ignoring the problem of online abuse and what to do about it; and the overall consensus here is.....nothing. What's the definition of madness?
We can revisit this thread when the same thing happens again at the World Cup, then
Interesting interview (on Womens Hour, but men welcome to listen as well!) with the 3 women who started this petition. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000xv7n Starts at 3min18sec.
I know this isn't necessarily contributing to the thread and I haven't read the whole thread but I can't understand for the life of me why someone uses the skin colour of someone before using a profanity.
If you wanna call someone a c then call them that if you must but why use their skin colour or nationality/belief before it?
I know this isn't necessarily contributing to the thread and I haven't read the whole thread but I can't understand for the life of me why someone uses the skin colour of someone before using a profanity.
If you wanna call someone a c then call them that if you must but why use their skin colour before it?
I know this isn't necessarily contributing to the thread and I haven't read the whole thread but I can't understand for the life of me why someone uses the skin colour of someone before using a profanity.
If you wanna call someone a c then call them that if you must but why use their skin colour or nationality/belief before it?
For the same reason someone would use the word fat, skinny, lanky, short, ginger, specy, spaz, gay, smelly, big nose, Muslim, Jewish, black, white etc etc etc. Nasty gits who want to pick something different about a person when abusing them to hurt them more.
Yes. BLM is an organisation with extreme views that many, such as myself will not condone and they have chosen that as their vehicle of choice, along with all of its violent baggage. Their choice. They don't get to choose how people react to that; it is an individual's right to call it how they see it.
Your point about KIO is interesting, but surely something can be done about that? Choosing to go the way they have and clumsily importing a divisive, intolerant and violent movement wholesale from a different country with different cultural issues will have consequences; I would have hoped that they would have considered that. It also begs the question that although it is less fashionable and edgy, KIO is much more inclusive and has a simple message. I think that it is sad that they decided to bin it, rather than reshape it into something more effective, which would of course take a lot of effort, but would still be achievable.
This thread overall seems like a bit of a reflection of society currently; the same old same old - people have a position and they stick to it and dismiss any opposing arguments/evidence out of hand.....and round in circles we go.
It's like the culture wars writ large; two sides shouting at each other, each convinced that they are correct, neither giving an inch.
Interesting that there are so many arguments back and forth ignoring the problem of online abuse and what to do about it; and the overall consensus here is.....nothing. What's the definition of madness?
We can revisit this thread when the same thing happens again at the World Cup, then
It’s a movement not an organisation. I’d say people who oppose it have extreme views, because they’re opposing an anti-racist movement.
I haven’t read the other posts so forgive me if this is old news but I remember the only time I’ve witnessed racism in a Charlton crowd ever - 2000/01 season away at Villa- one fan made monkey gestures at Ian Taylor when he scored a goal . I was about 14 and I remember feeling indelibly upset about it. I support the players taking the knee and wholly back lifetime bans for these vile people on social media .
If you look at this an alternative way, do you not see it as a positive in how things have progressed that it’s now over 20 years @wmcf123 since you witnessed any form of racism at a football game, and that that incident was such an outliner ?
I haven’t read the other posts so forgive me if this is old news but I remember the only time I’ve witnessed racism in a Charlton crowd ever - 2000/01 season away at Villa- one fan made monkey gestures at Ian Taylor when he scored a goal . I was about 14 and I remember feeling indelibly upset about it. I support the players taking the knee and wholly back lifetime bans for these vile people on social media .
A I remember in my early twenties when I used to sit in the north upper there was this old boy that would complain about everything at the top of his lungs. I remember him calling Lloyd Sam a stupid black c*** don't remember him saying much worse, but he always needed to include the black bit.
Called him out for it once and the large group of mixed age blokes around him began effing and jeffing at me for calling him out. I'm not stupid so I wound my neck in. I ended up moving my seat in the end as I hated hearing him and his negativity and racism week in and week out.
I know this isn't necessarily contributing to the thread and I haven't read the whole thread but I can't understand for the life of me why someone uses the skin colour of someone before using a profanity.
If you wanna call someone a c then call them that if you must but why use their skin colour before it?
3 days after it came to light, Portsmouth still haven't sacked their racist academy players yet.
The last statement they put out was 2pm Thursday. Because they are u18 it's to do with safeguarding. I doubt there will be a statement before Monday as it's now the weekend. Imo if this had been a 16/17 year old fan it would of been sorted by Thursday evening.
I know this isn't necessarily contributing to the thread and I haven't read the whole thread but I can't understand for the life of me why someone uses the skin colour of someone before using a profanity.
If you wanna call someone a c then call them that if you must but why use their skin colour before it?
I know this isn't necessarily contributing to the thread and I haven't read the whole thread but I can't understand for the life of me why someone uses the skin colour of someone before using a profanity.
If you wanna call someone a c then call them that if you must but why use their skin colour before it?
Comments
Many people who hate each other would probably get on in a pub with a pint in their hand. Simply because when you are conversing and somebody misunderstands something, it is easier to ask, or give, clarification and not jump on somebody.
Nothing to do with racism, but I think a forum can follow the same pitfalls of other social media platforms.
The person who delivers a message should always be responsible for how and whether that message is understood. For example, if I don't understand the latest Covid guidelines from the Government, that's Boris Johnson's fault.
Some of the comments on this thread are open to interpretation. And some people might not fully appreciate the tone and nuance of a number of them and misconstrue them. Such as:
'Pompous twats who if they were half as smart as they think they are, would still be twice as smart as they actually are', 'Oh get a grip', 'pathetic', 'prize pedant'.
Let's hope we can draw a line under that this sort of 'jumping on'. We shouldn't use social media (like CL) to abuse other users, particularly on a thread devoted to the prevention of the use of social media to abuse others.
Can’t help feeling you may be massively over complicating this. And talk of ‘virtue signalling’ is straight out of the culture wars text book. Players posting about the racism they receive on social media isn’t virtue signalling, it’s just them sharing the reality of their lives, isn’t it? Kneeling certainly isn’t ‘the epitome of virtue signalling’ as again, they are directly reminding the general public of their lived experience. I thought virtue signalling is saying something so that people think you’re virtuous. They’re clearly not doing that.
Those on the right are more likely to be anti BLM than those on the left.
I agree with what you say about the amorality of those running Twitter though. There would be far less abuse if people weren't able to post anonymously on social media.
2020 you can be found guilty of racial abuse in football and your club will publicly back you.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-57852315
Yes. BLM is an organisation with extreme views that many, such as myself will not condone and they have chosen that as their vehicle of choice, along with all of its violent baggage. Their choice. They don't get to choose how people react to that; it is an individual's right to call it how they see it.
Your point about KIO is interesting, but surely something can be done about that? Choosing to go the way they have and clumsily importing a divisive, intolerant and violent movement wholesale from a different country with different cultural issues will have consequences; I would have hoped that they would have considered that. It also begs the question that although it is less fashionable and edgy, KIO is much more inclusive and has a simple message. I think that it is sad that they decided to bin it, rather than reshape it into something more effective, which would of course take a lot of effort, but would still be achievable.
This thread overall seems like a bit of a reflection of society currently; the same old same old - people have a position and they stick to it and dismiss any opposing arguments/evidence out of hand.....and round in circles we go.
It's like the culture wars writ large; two sides shouting at each other, each convinced that they are correct, neither giving an inch.
Interesting that there are so many arguments back and forth ignoring the problem of online abuse and what to do about it; and the overall consensus here is.....nothing. What's the definition of madness?
We can revisit this thread when the same thing happens again at the World Cup, then
Flag absolutely needs reclaiming from racists and ott nationalists.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000xv7n Starts at 3min18sec.
https://www.skysports.com/football/news/12016/12357046/nottingham-trent-university-withdraws-offer-from-student-over-racist-snapchat-aimed-at-england-players
If you wanna call someone a c then call them that if you must but why use their skin colour or nationality/belief before it?
Called him out for it once and the large group of mixed age blokes around him began effing and jeffing at me for calling him out. I'm not stupid so I wound my neck in. I ended up moving my seat in the end as I hated hearing him and his negativity and racism week in and week out.
Because they are u18 it's to do with safeguarding.
I doubt there will be a statement before Monday as it's now the weekend.
Imo if this had been a 16/17 year old fan it would of been sorted by Thursday evening.
Nor me.