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A petition to ban racists from football.

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  • DOUCHER
    DOUCHER Posts: 7,896
    randy andy said:
    DOUCHER said:
    Why can't there be a middle ground here? why can't the players do something other than take the knee? those booing are doing so because they are anti the BLM movement (which i believe the knee thing started with?), the protests that ignored social distancing, the rioting and pillaging that went on and all the anti police and society stuff - it is not because they are racist (although there are bound to be a few). Maybe they can't do something else now as it will look bad on the BLM movement so an impasse has been reached. I watched that London riots thing on tv the other night and it seemed most of the rioting and anti society behaviour was undertaken by gangs and the dreggs, which seems to be the same in the recent one's in America. Why can't the players do a different signal and i'm sure there would be full support, as there is for the 'kick out racism' campaign and the red, white and black day stuff - never any booing then but people in this country don't like to have political stuff forced upon them in a sporting arena - change the signal from the knee to something else and its problem solved from what i can see  

    my friend i have plenty of black co workers, family and acquaintances and they all agree that as a country, England can't do much more than they already do - the endless seminars and unconscious bias and this and that , diversity moments and all the rest of it that we now get at work - they all agree is total box ticking nonsense - it can't do any harm so i just go along with it as everybody else does but really? in 1970 there was a lot of room for improvement / awareness - now? if u r going to be racist then you are going to be - the vast majority aren't but i think a lot feel insulted that we have all this self analysis to do just because a complete wrong un was mishandled in america - there will always be rotten apples in a police force, there will always be idiots / racists on social media but the civil disobedience and breakdown in society linked to BLM and the riots in america - just pick a different signal and its problem solved in football grounds - u will never solve racism completely but to flood our country, one which does so much already, with all this OTT stuff is causing more problems than it is solving  
  • seth plum
    seth plum Posts: 53,448
    The knee came about because of an individual American Football player. Not created by any Black Lives Matter movement.
  • DOUCHER
    DOUCHER Posts: 7,896
    seth plum said:
    The knee came about because of an individual American Football player. Not created by any Black Lives Matter movement.
    ok then i retract everything other than for the fact that it is synonymous with blm which is the problem so either change it or have an ongoing issue 
  • seth plum
    seth plum Posts: 53,448
    Why do you think it is synonymous with BLM? Isn’t it more fitting, even accurate, to say it’s synonymous with Colin Kaepernick’s original action?
    Anyway that’s the connection I make, and what if anything is wrong with that?
  • DOUCHER
    DOUCHER Posts: 7,896
    because that is why people are booing 
  • McBobbin
    McBobbin Posts: 12,051
    I saw a BLM demonstration where there was no taking of the knee, but there was a clapping. Should we do away with that?
  • CharltonMadrid
    CharltonMadrid Posts: 5,091
    edited August 2021
    Anyone over the age of about twelve who boos things must have more problems than just possibly being a racist. An adult booing something just looks very strange.
  • blackpool72
    blackpool72 Posts: 23,667
    CharltonMadrid said:
    Anyone over the age of about twelve who boos things must have more problems than just possibly being a racist. An adult booing something just looks very strange.
    So if the National Front was marching past you wouldn't boo 
  • CharltonMadrid
    CharltonMadrid Posts: 5,091
    Booing is for children at panto.
  • blackpool72
    blackpool72 Posts: 23,667
    CharltonMadrid said:
    Booing is for children at panto.
    So you wouldn't boo the National Front. 
    Fair enough. 
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  • Friend Or Defoe
    Friend Or Defoe Posts: 18,073
    cafc999 said:
    Cloudworm said:
    cafc999 said:
    Cloudworm said:
    palarsehater said:
    Cloudworm said:
    Taking the knee is an anti-racism gesture. Booing it pro-racism. You boo it, you’re (pro)racist. 
    what about if you don't agree with it but don't boo it?
    If a tree falls in the forest...

    If you’re against it, you’ve probably been reading the wrong newspapers and following the wrong people on social media.
    The poster will have definitley been reading different newspapers to you and following different people on social media. Saying the word wrong though does nothing for inclusion though
    If you think you know why players are kneeling better than the players kneeling, there’s something wrong with the information you’re getting. It’s the WRONG information. Quite simple. There’s shite media and good media. If you don’t realise that, you’re probably part of the problem.
    You can have a different opinion as long as its the same as mine springs to mind!

    My view is very much supportive of the kneeling and anything else trying to stamp out racism. Some people know what it means but just want to watch the football as to them its a get away from their normal day to day world. Who would have thought that eh?

    Am I probably part of the problem? No - see my view on the kneeling in this very post

    Maybe someone else may be part of the problem and doesn't realise that.
    It last 5 seconds, should we stop doing minute silences if remembering those lost at war is such an inconvenience?

  • Chippycafc
    Chippycafc Posts: 14,140
    Just finished shift and had a great chat with one of our engineers tonight who is black. He stated that in the last few years his enjoyment in coming to work and having the work shop banter has diminished too zero, as everyone is frightened to joke with him as the snowflakes and the PC brigade are destroying this environment. I totally agree.

    He is a Reading season ticket holder and hopes the club don't adopt TTK as in his words it's done it's course. I note again that those talking about it most are those who don't attend matches at the valley, or any other stadium to watch Charlton.
  • cantersaddick
    cantersaddick Posts: 16,907
    Chippycafc said:
    Just finished shift and had a great chat with one of our engineers tonight who is black. He stated that in the last few years his enjoyment in coming to work and having the work shop banter has diminished too zero, as everyone is frightened to joke with him as the snowflakes and the PC brigade are destroying this environment. I totally agree.

    He is a Reading season ticket holder and hopes the club don't adopt TTK as in his words it's done it's course. I note again that those talking about it most are those who don't attend matches at the valley, or any other stadium to watch Charlton.
    Thinking its run its course is a genuine concern people may have. Not a reason to boo it though. 
  • cantersaddick
    cantersaddick Posts: 16,907
    DOUCHER said:
    randy andy said:
    DOUCHER said:
    Why can't there be a middle ground here? why can't the players do something other than take the knee? those booing are doing so because they are anti the BLM movement (which i believe the knee thing started with?), the protests that ignored social distancing, the rioting and pillaging that went on and all the anti police and society stuff - it is not because they are racist (although there are bound to be a few). Maybe they can't do something else now as it will look bad on the BLM movement so an impasse has been reached. I watched that London riots thing on tv the other night and it seemed most of the rioting and anti society behaviour was undertaken by gangs and the dreggs, which seems to be the same in the recent one's in America. Why can't the players do a different signal and i'm sure there would be full support, as there is for the 'kick out racism' campaign and the red, white and black day stuff - never any booing then but people in this country don't like to have political stuff forced upon them in a sporting arena - change the signal from the knee to something else and its problem solved from what i can see  

    my friend i have plenty of black co workers, family and acquaintances and they all agree that as a country, England can't do much more than they already do - the endless seminars and unconscious bias and this and that , diversity moments and all the rest of it that we now get at work - they all agree is total box ticking nonsense - it can't do any harm so i just go along with it as everybody else does but really? in 1970 there was a lot of room for improvement / awareness - now? if u r going to be racist then you are going to be - the vast majority aren't but i think a lot feel insulted that we have all this self analysis to do just because a complete wrong un was mishandled in america - there will always be rotten apples in a police force, there will always be idiots / racists on social media but the civil disobedience and breakdown in society linked to BLM and the riots in america - just pick a different signal and its problem solved in football grounds - u will never solve racism completely but to flood our country, one which does so much already, with all this OTT stuff is causing more problems than it is solving  
    A phrase rarely said in any other contect than trying to justify racism
  • DOUCHER
    DOUCHER Posts: 7,896
    cantersaddick said:
    DOUCHER said:
    randy andy said:
    DOUCHER said:
    Why can't there be a middle ground here? why can't the players do something other than take the knee? those booing are doing so because they are anti the BLM movement (which i believe the knee thing started with?), the protests that ignored social distancing, the rioting and pillaging that went on and all the anti police and society stuff - it is not because they are racist (although there are bound to be a few). Maybe they can't do something else now as it will look bad on the BLM movement so an impasse has been reached. I watched that London riots thing on tv the other night and it seemed most of the rioting and anti society behaviour was undertaken by gangs and the dreggs, which seems to be the same in the recent one's in America. Why can't the players do a different signal and i'm sure there would be full support, as there is for the 'kick out racism' campaign and the red, white and black day stuff - never any booing then but people in this country don't like to have political stuff forced upon them in a sporting arena - change the signal from the knee to something else and its problem solved from what i can see  

    my friend i have plenty of black co workers, family and acquaintances and they all agree that as a country, England can't do much more than they already do - the endless seminars and unconscious bias and this and that , diversity moments and all the rest of it that we now get at work - they all agree is total box ticking nonsense - it can't do any harm so i just go along with it as everybody else does but really? in 1970 there was a lot of room for improvement / awareness - now? if u r going to be racist then you are going to be - the vast majority aren't but i think a lot feel insulted that we have all this self analysis to do just because a complete wrong un was mishandled in america - there will always be rotten apples in a police force, there will always be idiots / racists on social media but the civil disobedience and breakdown in society linked to BLM and the riots in america - just pick a different signal and its problem solved in football grounds - u will never solve racism completely but to flood our country, one which does so much already, with all this OTT stuff is causing more problems than it is solving  
    A phrase rarely said in any other contect than trying to justify racism
    so are u saying i am racist or are u saying what i have said is a lie? i'm not racist and i do have many family, friends and colleagues who are black  but i won't get into an argument with u because i remember u to be a very unstable character and i don't want to unbalance u any further  
  • The_Organiser
    The_Organiser Posts: 3,999

    For what it's worth, as a non-booer but a non-booer who believes in the right of my fellow supporters to boo, I actually believe the football view.

    However they can't get away from the fact that taking the knee has links to politics that others may not find particularly pallatable, though. Football can't on the one hand dictate to supporters how the former's gesture should be interpretted while simultaneously unilaterally deciding how the latter's gesture must be interpretted.

    Seemingly without realising it (else they'd surely offer others the same courtesy they request for themselves), the pro-kneetakers are actually only serving to rip the rug out from under their own argument when they refuse to allow anti-kneetakers the same right to have their own reasons for their gestures of disapproval.

    Just as I am sure that, while there are some idiots who have jumped on the knee-taking bandwagon because they are in fact neo-Marxists who want to defund the police etc, the vast majority of those who support taking the knee do so out of genuine sympathy (even empathy) to the cause of anti-racism, I am just as sure that, while there are some idiots who have jumped on the booing bandwagon because they are in fact racists, the vast majority of those who support booing do so because they don't like many of the things that are connected to that which they are booing - or morever because, regardless of their own personal persuasions, simply don't agree with politics encroaching into sport.


  • Grapevine49
    Grapevine49 Posts: 997
    Doucher, far be it for me to challenge the veracity of your experience but I am just a little puzzled if you have so many black acquaintances where you discussed racial discrimination just quite how you did not know the Taking of the Knee did not originate with the Black Lives Matter Political Movement.

    It is not hard to Google.

    In reality of course their opinion on the action of the Taking the Knee by others is as irrelevant as yours. If a group of individuals chooses to exercise their democratic right to peaceably protest within the confines of the law that is their right. By what right do you believe you have the right to curtail peoples right to protest.

    I am also intrigued by this perception there is nothing more the UK need do in improving its racial tolerance. Perhaps you might like to ask your black acquaintances when they propose to « have the conversation » with their children. No not the one about the birds and the bees but the one where they prepare their off spring to handle the racial intolerance they will face as they grow up.

    Now you of course may think that is perfectly acceptable and normal. There are of course a great many people who don’t.
  • Weegie Addick
    Weegie Addick Posts: 16,519
    Superbly said, @Grapevine49. Any chance you could pop over to Twitter and eloquently respond to similar ramblings by Charlton’s former owner - the one who led us to bankruptcy in the 80s - Mark Hulyer?
  • DOUCHER
    DOUCHER Posts: 7,896
    Grapevine49 said:
    Doucher, far be it for me to challenge the veracity of your experience but I am just a little puzzled if you have so many black acquaintances where you discussed racial discrimination just quite how you did not know the Taking of the Knee did not originate with the Black Lives Matter Political Movement.

    It is not hard to Google.

    In reality of course their opinion on the action of the Taking the Knee by others is as irrelevant as yours. If a group of individuals chooses to exercise their democratic right to peaceably protest within the confines of the law that is their right. By what right do you believe you have the right to curtail peoples right to protest.

    I am also intrigued by this perception there is nothing more the UK need do in improving its racial tolerance. Perhaps you might like to ask your black acquaintances when they propose to « have the conversation » with their children. No not the one about the birds and the bees but the one where they prepare their off spring to handle the racial intolerance they will face as they grow up.

    Now you of course may think that is perfectly acceptable and normal. There are of course a great many people who don’t.
    is that a round about way of saying you think i'm lying as well grapevine? being concise can be a positive sometimes ?.... i do not have debates about this topic, i am merely a visitor to it but it seems a practical solution - stop taking the knee and do something else and then we can focus on supporting the anti racism cause rather than arguing about the BLM stuff    
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  • DOUCHER
    DOUCHER Posts: 7,896
    next 

  • Grapevine49
    Grapevine49 Posts: 997
    I regret I cannot help your interpretation. I indicated a challenge to your understanding of the racial challenges faced by many  based on your referencing such issues with black acquaintances. Is that concise enough for you?
  • Cloudworm
    Cloudworm Posts: 973
    DOUCHER said:
    because that is why people are booing 
    Then they really are idiots.

    Jason Pearce is a Marxist! Ryan Innis wants to defund the police!

    It’s so dumb, it’s hilarious!
  • JamesSeed
    JamesSeed Posts: 17,380
    DOUCHER said:
    because that is why people are booing 
    People have been gaslit about BLM. It’s not an organised revolutionary Marxist movement as some on the internet (and some of the right wing press) would have you believe. Ask yourself why would they misrepresent BLM? What’s in it for the likes of Trump, Le Pen, Farage and Orban?
  • ValleyOfTears
    ValleyOfTears Posts: 1,067
    Listening to a great number of people of colour (something that clearly many people still don't do) in a variety of settings I learn a lot more about what really affects them than millionaires squatting on their knee every Saturday afternoon. And lo and behold the things that concern most are waitforitwaitforit ...the same things that concern everybody. And "institutional racism" is not top of their concerns. 

    Here are just a few of the concerns I hear time and time again:

    "I wish my children had some positive male role models in their lives". 
    "I fear for my child's safety at school and travelling to and from school. There are gangs everywhere". 
    "I wish we had peace in our family relationships" 
    "There is so much wickedness in my community". 
    "We have lost all sense of respect for the elderly and for parents". 
    "There is no sense of community anymore". 

    And if "Taking The Knee" or "Black Lives Matter Marxist political group " were ever mentioned. This is the general verdict: 

    "It's pointless"  "A waste of time." " I don't even agree with what they stand for". "I am a Christian". 

    I would suggest if people are so obsessed about BLM then start listening to the demographic to which this group allegedly wishes to support ~ black people. All we are hearing on the subject  are the same white liberals views we have always had to endure. 

    Here are a few views of the whole Taking The Knee BLM gesture from footballers of colour:

    "I feel like taking the knee is degrading" Wilfred Zaha. 

    "We are being used as puppets" Ivan Toney. 
    "The message has been lost. It is now not dissimilar to a fancy hashtag or a nice pin badge". Les Ferdinand. 

    "I do not support Black Lives Matter as an institution or an organisation". Lyle Taylor. 
  • SELR_addicks
    SELR_addicks Posts: 15,446
    ValleyOfTears said:
    Listening to a great number of people of colour (something that clearly many people still don't do) in a variety of settings I learn a lot more about what really affects them than millionaires squatting on their knee every Saturday afternoon. And lo and behold the things that concern most are waitforitwaitforit ...the same things that concern everybody. And "institutional racism" is not top of their concerns. 

    Here are just a few of the concerns I hear time and time again:

    "I wish my children had some positive male role models in their lives". 
    "I fear for my child's safety at school and travelling to and from school. There are gangs everywhere". 
    "I wish we had peace in our family relationships" 
    "There is so much wickedness in my community". 
    "We have lost all sense of respect for the elderly and for parents". 
    "There is no sense of community anymore". 

    And if "Taking The Knee" or "Black Lives Matter Marxist political group " were ever mentioned. This is the general verdict: 

    "It's pointless"  "A waste of time." " I don't even agree with what they stand for". "I am a Christian". 

    I would suggest if people are so obsessed about BLM then start listening to the demographic to which this group allegedly wishes to support ~ black people. All we are hearing on the subject  are the same white liberals views we have always had to endure. 

    Here are a few views of the whole Taking The Knee BLM gesture from footballers of colour:

    "I feel like taking the knee is degrading" Wilfred Zaha. 

    "We are being used as puppets" Ivan Toney. 
    "The message has been lost. It is now not dissimilar to a fancy hashtag or a nice pin badge". Les Ferdinand. 

    "I do not support Black Lives Matter as an institution or an organisation". Lyle Taylor. 
    Chose not to listen to Marcus Rashford, Raheem Sterling or any of the players that don't fit your world view though? 

    The majority of black players support taking of the knee, that isn't in doubt right? You cherry-picking 5 players doesn't change that. 

    I'm sure I could find 3 players in the EFL that believe the Royal Family are aliens, doesn't mean all footballers do. 
  • Cloudworm
    Cloudworm Posts: 973
    The_Organiser said:

    For what it's worth, as a non-booer but a non-booer who believes in the right of my fellow supporters to boo, I actually believe the football view.

    However they can't get away from the fact that taking the knee has links to politics that others may not find particularly pallatable, though. Football can't on the one hand dictate to supporters how the former's gesture should be interpretted while simultaneously unilaterally deciding how the latter's gesture must be interpretted.

    Seemingly without realising it (else they'd surely offer others the same courtesy they request for themselves), the pro-kneetakers are actually only serving to rip the rug out from under their own argument when they refuse to allow anti-kneetakers the same right to have their own reasons for their gestures of disapproval.

    Just as I am sure that, while there are some idiots who have jumped on the knee-taking bandwagon because they are in fact neo-Marxists who want to defund the police etc, the vast majority of those who support taking the knee do so out of genuine sympathy (even empathy) to the cause of anti-racism, I am just as sure that, while there are some idiots who have jumped on the booing bandwagon because they are in fact racists, the vast majority of those who support booing do so because they don't like many of the things that are connected to that which they are booing - or morever because, regardless of their own personal persuasions, simply don't agree with politics encroaching into sport.


    How else can a boo be interpreted, other than to be in direct opposition to the thing that prompts it? If that thing is defined by the players as taking a stand against racist, then booing can only be interpreted as being against that. Those booing don’t see that because as someone has said, they’ve been gaslit into thinking kneeling > BLM > BLM BAD!
  • Cloudworm
    Cloudworm Posts: 973
    It’s lucky I’m not a racist because I have absolutely no black friends to refer to in my defence!
  • MuttleyCAFC
    MuttleyCAFC Posts: 47,728
    edited August 2021
    DOUCHER said:
    cantersaddick said:
    DOUCHER said:
    randy andy said:
    DOUCHER said:
    Why can't there be a middle ground here? why can't the players do something other than take the knee? those booing are doing so because they are anti the BLM movement (which i believe the knee thing started with?), the protests that ignored social distancing, the rioting and pillaging that went on and all the anti police and society stuff - it is not because they are racist (although there are bound to be a few). Maybe they can't do something else now as it will look bad on the BLM movement so an impasse has been reached. I watched that London riots thing on tv the other night and it seemed most of the rioting and anti society behaviour was undertaken by gangs and the dreggs, which seems to be the same in the recent one's in America. Why can't the players do a different signal and i'm sure there would be full support, as there is for the 'kick out racism' campaign and the red, white and black day stuff - never any booing then but people in this country don't like to have political stuff forced upon them in a sporting arena - change the signal from the knee to something else and its problem solved from what i can see  

    my friend i have plenty of black co workers, family and acquaintances and they all agree that as a country, England can't do much more than they already do - the endless seminars and unconscious bias and this and that , diversity moments and all the rest of it that we now get at work - they all agree is total box ticking nonsense - it can't do any harm so i just go along with it as everybody else does but really? in 1970 there was a lot of room for improvement / awareness - now? if u r going to be racist then you are going to be - the vast majority aren't but i think a lot feel insulted that we have all this self analysis to do just because a complete wrong un was mishandled in america - there will always be rotten apples in a police force, there will always be idiots / racists on social media but the civil disobedience and breakdown in society linked to BLM and the riots in america - just pick a different signal and its problem solved in football grounds - u will never solve racism completely but to flood our country, one which does so much already, with all this OTT stuff is causing more problems than it is solving  
    A phrase rarely said in any other contect than trying to justify racism
    so are u saying i am racist or are u saying what i have said is a lie? i'm not racist and i do have many family, friends and colleagues who are black  but i won't get into an argument with u because i remember u to be a very unstable character and i don't want to unbalance u any further  
    I am not calling you a racist, I don't know you but you have made contradictory statements. If the association with the BLM movement is the reason for the booing and nothing else, why make a general point that not much more can be done than is already being done regarding racism in this country. You could, after all, say that you agree with the sentiment behind it but not the way it is being expressed.

    But you don't agree with the sentiment behind it do you? And ultimately that is why people are booing. They think this country is doing enough in relation to racism even though they have no direct experience of it and are tired of black people and some white people constantly moaning about it. That is the reason people boo and it has nothing to do with a movement that did not invent the gesture, nor has any members within its ranks of those players making the statement. And the fact that people are booing and players are getting abused is extending the gesture as those making it are seeing it as increasingly relevant.
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