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A petition to ban racists from football.
Comments
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I believe those taking the knee are also trying to improve circumstances for Asian people, Oriental people, Arabic people as well as Black people. Indeed to urge equality and tolerance for all people subject to negative discrimination.
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ValleyOfTears said:Listening to a great number of people of colour (something that clearly many people still don't do) in a variety of settings I learn a lot more about what really affects them than millionaires squatting on their knee every Saturday afternoon. And lo and behold the things that concern most are waitforitwaitforit ...the same things that concern everybody. And "institutional racism" is not top of their concerns.
Here are just a few of the concerns I hear time and time again:
"I wish my children had some positive male role models in their lives".
"I fear for my child's safety at school and travelling to and from school. There are gangs everywhere".
"I wish we had peace in our family relationships"
"There is so much wickedness in my community".
"We have lost all sense of respect for the elderly and for parents".
"There is no sense of community anymore".
And if "Taking The Knee" or "Black Lives Matter Marxist political group " were ever mentioned. This is the general verdict:
"It's pointless" "A waste of time." " I don't even agree with what they stand for". "I am a Christian".
I would suggest if people are so obsessed about BLM then start listening to the demographic to which this group allegedly wishes to support ~ black people. All we are hearing on the subject are the same white liberals views we have always had to endure.
Here are a few views of the whole Taking The Knee BLM gesture from footballers of colour:
"I feel like taking the knee is degrading" Wilfred Zaha.
"We are being used as puppets" Ivan Toney.
"The message has been lost. It is now not dissimilar to a fancy hashtag or a nice pin badge". Les Ferdinand.
"I do not support Black Lives Matter as an institution or an organisation". Lyle Taylor.
Funnily enough, a few black people can be very quite cagey about what they share with who. The ones I hear most often but aren't on your list are "I wish the police would stop pulling my law abiding son over just because he drives a nice car" and "I wish the police wouldn't randomly stop my kids when they are doing nothing wrong". As those both fit the narrative of institutional racism maybe that's why your black acquaintances haven't chosen to share them with you.
On the individual footballers' comments, it's worth noting that Les Ferdinand changed his view when QPR played Millwall after they booed their players taking the knee and QPR did it in the very next game against them. The Millwall fans (egged on by the Marxists of Spiked, how ironic) made the message relevant again.
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I fail to understand why anyone would think that Charlton players taking the knee is anything other than their reaction to racism and discrimination. It is after all, what was announced in the ground.
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RalphMilnesgut said:I fail to understand why anyone would think that Charlton players taking the knee is anything other than their reaction to racism and discrimination. It is after all, what was announced in the ground.Without getting too deeply into things, I would compare it to Addicks To Victory - if you asked TS, he would no doubt say he was replacing the Red Red Robin because he wanted everyone to be happy and share his excitement about the future of the club. Is he being dishonest? No. But is that all there is to say about it? Also no, whether he even acknowledges it himself, there is a far wider context to that decision, which cannot be disassociated from it, and, frankly, some of the views on his decision might be fair and others might be profoundly unfair, but he needs to bring the club with him.No doubt he is somewhat hurt by having to change it back, but he has to make a choice: he has two options.The first is to insist that he is right, you cannot stop change and the people who do not like it are just a few malcontents who he can force into submission by keeping playing it.The second is that he can listen to what the opposition is saying and try to find common ground and build a coalition for change - understanding that sometimes your most vocal detractors can sometimes become your strongest allies (whilst also acknowledging that there will always be a hard-core who will never like him).I don't say that either of these routes is 'the right' one, but to take it back to the non-football world, we saw BLM pretty much try the first option last year and it wasted the huge desire for change which followed from how appalled almost everyone was by what happened in Minneapolis, and I would really like to see the football protest not just drift away into nothing in a few weeks. My opinion is that to avoid that requires compromise, planning, leadership, and really tangible goals.0
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btw - i haven't and won't boo it - i'm proposing a solution to get over what is going to be an ongoing problem in football groundsMuttleyCAFC said:
I am not calling you a racist, I don't know you but you have made contradictory statements. If the association with the BLM movement is the reason for the booing and nothing else, why make a general point that not much more can be done than is already being done regarding racism in this country. You could, after all, say that you agree with the sentiment behind it but not the way it is being expressed.DOUCHER said:
so are u saying i am racist or are u saying what i have said is a lie? i'm not racist and i do have many family, friends and colleagues who are black but i won't get into an argument with u because i remember u to be a very unstable character and i don't want to unbalance u any furthercantersaddick said:
A phrase rarely said in any other contect than trying to justify racismDOUCHER said:
my friend i have plenty of black co workers, family and acquaintances and they all agree that as a country, England can't do much more than they already do - the endless seminars and unconscious bias and this and that , diversity moments and all the rest of it that we now get at work - they all agree is total box ticking nonsense - it can't do any harm so i just go along with it as everybody else does but really? in 1970 there was a lot of room for improvement / awareness - now? if u r going to be racist then you are going to be - the vast majority aren't but i think a lot feel insulted that we have all this self analysis to do just because a complete wrong un was mishandled in america - there will always be rotten apples in a police force, there will always be idiots / racists on social media but the civil disobedience and breakdown in society linked to BLM and the riots in america - just pick a different signal and its problem solved in football grounds - u will never solve racism completely but to flood our country, one which does so much already, with all this OTT stuff is causing more problems than it is solvingrandy andy said:DOUCHER said:Why can't there be a middle ground here? why can't the players do something other than take the knee? those booing are doing so because they are anti the BLM movement (which i believe the knee thing started with?), the protests that ignored social distancing, the rioting and pillaging that went on and all the anti police and society stuff - it is not because they are racist (although there are bound to be a few). Maybe they can't do something else now as it will look bad on the BLM movement so an impasse has been reached. I watched that London riots thing on tv the other night and it seemed most of the rioting and anti society behaviour was undertaken by gangs and the dreggs, which seems to be the same in the recent one's in America. Why can't the players do a different signal and i'm sure there would be full support, as there is for the 'kick out racism' campaign and the red, white and black day stuff - never any booing then but people in this country don't like to have political stuff forced upon them in a sporting arena - change the signal from the knee to something else and its problem solved from what i can see
But you don't agree with the sentiment behind it do you? And ultimately that is why people are booing. They think this country is doing enough in relation to racism even though they have no direct experience of it and are tired of black people and some white people constantly moaning about it. That is the reason people boo and it has nothing to do with a movement that did not invent the gesture, nor has any members within its ranks of those players making the statement. And the fact that people are booing and players are getting abused is extending the gesture as those making it are seeing it as increasingly relevant.1 -
i'm glad i could help - a thousand words are rarely necessary - yes - my colleagues i refer to are black - my son's girlfriend is mixed race, i have played with and recruited many black players to my football teams over the years and consider many to be good friends - that is the basis of my view - real people, real viewsGrapevine49 said:I regret I cannot help your interpretation. I indicated a challenge to your understanding of the racial challenges faced by many based on your referencing such issues with black acquaintances. Is that concise enough for you?1 -
But you're "solution" doesn't solve anything. It won't make the ACTUAL problem go away or change anything.DOUCHER said:
btw - i haven't and won't boo it - i'm proposing a solution to get over what is going to be an ongoing problem in football groundsMuttleyCAFC said:
I am not calling you a racist, I don't know you but you have made contradictory statements. If the association with the BLM movement is the reason for the booing and nothing else, why make a general point that not much more can be done than is already being done regarding racism in this country. You could, after all, say that you agree with the sentiment behind it but not the way it is being expressed.DOUCHER said:
so are u saying i am racist or are u saying what i have said is a lie? i'm not racist and i do have many family, friends and colleagues who are black but i won't get into an argument with u because i remember u to be a very unstable character and i don't want to unbalance u any furthercantersaddick said:
A phrase rarely said in any other contect than trying to justify racismDOUCHER said:
my friend i have plenty of black co workers, family and acquaintances and they all agree that as a country, England can't do much more than they already do - the endless seminars and unconscious bias and this and that , diversity moments and all the rest of it that we now get at work - they all agree is total box ticking nonsense - it can't do any harm so i just go along with it as everybody else does but really? in 1970 there was a lot of room for improvement / awareness - now? if u r going to be racist then you are going to be - the vast majority aren't but i think a lot feel insulted that we have all this self analysis to do just because a complete wrong un was mishandled in america - there will always be rotten apples in a police force, there will always be idiots / racists on social media but the civil disobedience and breakdown in society linked to BLM and the riots in america - just pick a different signal and its problem solved in football grounds - u will never solve racism completely but to flood our country, one which does so much already, with all this OTT stuff is causing more problems than it is solvingrandy andy said:DOUCHER said:Why can't there be a middle ground here? why can't the players do something other than take the knee? those booing are doing so because they are anti the BLM movement (which i believe the knee thing started with?), the protests that ignored social distancing, the rioting and pillaging that went on and all the anti police and society stuff - it is not because they are racist (although there are bound to be a few). Maybe they can't do something else now as it will look bad on the BLM movement so an impasse has been reached. I watched that London riots thing on tv the other night and it seemed most of the rioting and anti society behaviour was undertaken by gangs and the dreggs, which seems to be the same in the recent one's in America. Why can't the players do a different signal and i'm sure there would be full support, as there is for the 'kick out racism' campaign and the red, white and black day stuff - never any booing then but people in this country don't like to have political stuff forced upon them in a sporting arena - change the signal from the knee to something else and its problem solved from what i can see
But you don't agree with the sentiment behind it do you? And ultimately that is why people are booing. They think this country is doing enough in relation to racism even though they have no direct experience of it and are tired of black people and some white people constantly moaning about it. That is the reason people boo and it has nothing to do with a movement that did not invent the gesture, nor has any members within its ranks of those players making the statement. And the fact that people are booing and players are getting abused is extending the gesture as those making it are seeing it as increasingly relevant.2 -
What has struck me was the number of black celebrities who have said they have been stopped by the police. This has never happened to me or my family so something is going on whether intentional or not. It is no good us denying there still isn't a problem.2
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it will stop people booing in the grounds yet still allow a signal / reminder before each kick off that racism has no place in football or society - its a practical solution, not the answer to the worlds problemsthenewbie said:
But you're "solution" doesn't solve anything. It won't make the ACTUAL problem go away or change anything.DOUCHER said:
btw - i haven't and won't boo it - i'm proposing a solution to get over what is going to be an ongoing problem in football groundsMuttleyCAFC said:
I am not calling you a racist, I don't know you but you have made contradictory statements. If the association with the BLM movement is the reason for the booing and nothing else, why make a general point that not much more can be done than is already being done regarding racism in this country. You could, after all, say that you agree with the sentiment behind it but not the way it is being expressed.DOUCHER said:
so are u saying i am racist or are u saying what i have said is a lie? i'm not racist and i do have many family, friends and colleagues who are black but i won't get into an argument with u because i remember u to be a very unstable character and i don't want to unbalance u any furthercantersaddick said:
A phrase rarely said in any other contect than trying to justify racismDOUCHER said:
my friend i have plenty of black co workers, family and acquaintances and they all agree that as a country, England can't do much more than they already do - the endless seminars and unconscious bias and this and that , diversity moments and all the rest of it that we now get at work - they all agree is total box ticking nonsense - it can't do any harm so i just go along with it as everybody else does but really? in 1970 there was a lot of room for improvement / awareness - now? if u r going to be racist then you are going to be - the vast majority aren't but i think a lot feel insulted that we have all this self analysis to do just because a complete wrong un was mishandled in america - there will always be rotten apples in a police force, there will always be idiots / racists on social media but the civil disobedience and breakdown in society linked to BLM and the riots in america - just pick a different signal and its problem solved in football grounds - u will never solve racism completely but to flood our country, one which does so much already, with all this OTT stuff is causing more problems than it is solvingrandy andy said:DOUCHER said:Why can't there be a middle ground here? why can't the players do something other than take the knee? those booing are doing so because they are anti the BLM movement (which i believe the knee thing started with?), the protests that ignored social distancing, the rioting and pillaging that went on and all the anti police and society stuff - it is not because they are racist (although there are bound to be a few). Maybe they can't do something else now as it will look bad on the BLM movement so an impasse has been reached. I watched that London riots thing on tv the other night and it seemed most of the rioting and anti society behaviour was undertaken by gangs and the dreggs, which seems to be the same in the recent one's in America. Why can't the players do a different signal and i'm sure there would be full support, as there is for the 'kick out racism' campaign and the red, white and black day stuff - never any booing then but people in this country don't like to have political stuff forced upon them in a sporting arena - change the signal from the knee to something else and its problem solved from what i can see
But you don't agree with the sentiment behind it do you? And ultimately that is why people are booing. They think this country is doing enough in relation to racism even though they have no direct experience of it and are tired of black people and some white people constantly moaning about it. That is the reason people boo and it has nothing to do with a movement that did not invent the gesture, nor has any members within its ranks of those players making the statement. And the fact that people are booing and players are getting abused is extending the gesture as those making it are seeing it as increasingly relevant.2 -
The players voted to continue to protest with the knee.DOUCHER said:
it will stop people booing in the grounds yet still allow a signal / reminder before each kick off that racism has no place in football or society - its a practical solution, not the answer to the worlds problemsthenewbie said:
But you're "solution" doesn't solve anything. It won't make the ACTUAL problem go away or change anything.DOUCHER said:
btw - i haven't and won't boo it - i'm proposing a solution to get over what is going to be an ongoing problem in football groundsMuttleyCAFC said:
I am not calling you a racist, I don't know you but you have made contradictory statements. If the association with the BLM movement is the reason for the booing and nothing else, why make a general point that not much more can be done than is already being done regarding racism in this country. You could, after all, say that you agree with the sentiment behind it but not the way it is being expressed.DOUCHER said:
so are u saying i am racist or are u saying what i have said is a lie? i'm not racist and i do have many family, friends and colleagues who are black but i won't get into an argument with u because i remember u to be a very unstable character and i don't want to unbalance u any furthercantersaddick said:
A phrase rarely said in any other contect than trying to justify racismDOUCHER said:
my friend i have plenty of black co workers, family and acquaintances and they all agree that as a country, England can't do much more than they already do - the endless seminars and unconscious bias and this and that , diversity moments and all the rest of it that we now get at work - they all agree is total box ticking nonsense - it can't do any harm so i just go along with it as everybody else does but really? in 1970 there was a lot of room for improvement / awareness - now? if u r going to be racist then you are going to be - the vast majority aren't but i think a lot feel insulted that we have all this self analysis to do just because a complete wrong un was mishandled in america - there will always be rotten apples in a police force, there will always be idiots / racists on social media but the civil disobedience and breakdown in society linked to BLM and the riots in america - just pick a different signal and its problem solved in football grounds - u will never solve racism completely but to flood our country, one which does so much already, with all this OTT stuff is causing more problems than it is solvingrandy andy said:DOUCHER said:Why can't there be a middle ground here? why can't the players do something other than take the knee? those booing are doing so because they are anti the BLM movement (which i believe the knee thing started with?), the protests that ignored social distancing, the rioting and pillaging that went on and all the anti police and society stuff - it is not because they are racist (although there are bound to be a few). Maybe they can't do something else now as it will look bad on the BLM movement so an impasse has been reached. I watched that London riots thing on tv the other night and it seemed most of the rioting and anti society behaviour was undertaken by gangs and the dreggs, which seems to be the same in the recent one's in America. Why can't the players do a different signal and i'm sure there would be full support, as there is for the 'kick out racism' campaign and the red, white and black day stuff - never any booing then but people in this country don't like to have political stuff forced upon them in a sporting arena - change the signal from the knee to something else and its problem solved from what i can see
But you don't agree with the sentiment behind it do you? And ultimately that is why people are booing. They think this country is doing enough in relation to racism even though they have no direct experience of it and are tired of black people and some white people constantly moaning about it. That is the reason people boo and it has nothing to do with a movement that did not invent the gesture, nor has any members within its ranks of those players making the statement. And the fact that people are booing and players are getting abused is extending the gesture as those making it are seeing it as increasingly relevant.2 - Sponsored links:
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The problem isn't the booing, it's the racism5
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Doucher you are helping no one - least of all yourself. There is no value to repeating the same assertion ignoring the challenge I posed. If you have genuinely held conversations about racial protest with black people how on earth did you not know TTK did not originate with the BLM political movement?
Stop posturing and posing deflection upon deflection.
Drew Brees a US Quarter Back spent over 20yrs in a football locker room with up to 70% of his playing colleagues being black and their life challenges still did not register. He even went on annual charity exercises among the community and he still didn’t get it. He had spent his life looking the other way. He gets it now because after an entirely inappropriate comment his locker room colleagues gave him the message loud and clear.
So either you are not asking the right questions or you are not listening.
I ask you again go back to these black acquaintances and ask just when they will have the « conversation « with their children about handling racial intolerance. I would quite like to know because I am grandfather to two delightful mixed race grand daughters.
That is real lives. That is their reality.11 -
Testimonies like you describe certainly are harrowing, but I honestly do not think that many people would say that there are no problems in our society, rather that the proposed solutions to the problems might actually be counterproductive. This is particularly true in the UK where over the past many years we have tried to push a message that the least interesting aspect of someone is the colour of their skin and there is plenty of evidence that this approach has made people considerably less racist and even that, today, situations like you describe might not really have so much to do with race.MuttleyCAFC said:What has struck me was the number of black celebrities who have said they have been stopped by the police. This has never happened to me or my family so something is going on whether intentional or not. It is no good us denying there still isn't a problem.
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I have a couple of black mates but surprisingly unlike a lot of people on this thread, I have never actually had a deep conversation with them about racism.Cloudworm said:It’s lucky I’m not a racist because I have absolutely no black friends to refer to in my defence!3 -
I don’t think it will stop the booing, the racists will always find a reason to oppose a stand against their own misguided views.DOUCHER said:
it will stop people booing in the grounds yet still allow a signal / reminder before each kick off that racism has no place in football or society - its a practical solution, not the answer to the worlds problemsthenewbie said:
But you're "solution" doesn't solve anything. It won't make the ACTUAL problem go away or change anything.DOUCHER said:
btw - i haven't and won't boo it - i'm proposing a solution to get over what is going to be an ongoing problem in football groundsMuttleyCAFC said:
I am not calling you a racist, I don't know you but you have made contradictory statements. If the association with the BLM movement is the reason for the booing and nothing else, why make a general point that not much more can be done than is already being done regarding racism in this country. You could, after all, say that you agree with the sentiment behind it but not the way it is being expressed.DOUCHER said:
so are u saying i am racist or are u saying what i have said is a lie? i'm not racist and i do have many family, friends and colleagues who are black but i won't get into an argument with u because i remember u to be a very unstable character and i don't want to unbalance u any furthercantersaddick said:
A phrase rarely said in any other contect than trying to justify racismDOUCHER said:
my friend i have plenty of black co workers, family and acquaintances and they all agree that as a country, England can't do much more than they already do - the endless seminars and unconscious bias and this and that , diversity moments and all the rest of it that we now get at work - they all agree is total box ticking nonsense - it can't do any harm so i just go along with it as everybody else does but really? in 1970 there was a lot of room for improvement / awareness - now? if u r going to be racist then you are going to be - the vast majority aren't but i think a lot feel insulted that we have all this self analysis to do just because a complete wrong un was mishandled in america - there will always be rotten apples in a police force, there will always be idiots / racists on social media but the civil disobedience and breakdown in society linked to BLM and the riots in america - just pick a different signal and its problem solved in football grounds - u will never solve racism completely but to flood our country, one which does so much already, with all this OTT stuff is causing more problems than it is solvingrandy andy said:DOUCHER said:Why can't there be a middle ground here? why can't the players do something other than take the knee? those booing are doing so because they are anti the BLM movement (which i believe the knee thing started with?), the protests that ignored social distancing, the rioting and pillaging that went on and all the anti police and society stuff - it is not because they are racist (although there are bound to be a few). Maybe they can't do something else now as it will look bad on the BLM movement so an impasse has been reached. I watched that London riots thing on tv the other night and it seemed most of the rioting and anti society behaviour was undertaken by gangs and the dreggs, which seems to be the same in the recent one's in America. Why can't the players do a different signal and i'm sure there would be full support, as there is for the 'kick out racism' campaign and the red, white and black day stuff - never any booing then but people in this country don't like to have political stuff forced upon them in a sporting arena - change the signal from the knee to something else and its problem solved from what i can see
But you don't agree with the sentiment behind it do you? And ultimately that is why people are booing. They think this country is doing enough in relation to racism even though they have no direct experience of it and are tired of black people and some white people constantly moaning about it. That is the reason people boo and it has nothing to do with a movement that did not invent the gesture, nor has any members within its ranks of those players making the statement. And the fact that people are booing and players are getting abused is extending the gesture as those making it are seeing it as increasingly relevant.5 -
Taking the knee is self evidently divisive. There are enough people saying that they disagree with it in principle because of what they associate with the act. Nothing is achieved by continually saying these people are misinterpreting the intent or the message it conveys as that is their view.
If we are seeking unity, then why not adopt a form of demonstration which self evidently isn't divisive. Kick it Out, for example, has no political association, to the best of my knowledge, that anyone other than a racist would object to.
Before every match, the players stand together in the centre circle with their KIO shirts on and applaud the fans - the fans return that applause - its a two way act which demonstrates unity. The players then give their t-shirts to the crowd. It takes a bit longer, but loses all of the connotations people are debating.
I think it would be fair to say that anyone booing KIO and the demonstration of unity could be rightly challenged. They would be booing an act of unification, as opposed to one that they believe has associations with which they disagree.
Unfortunately we are going down a route of entrenched positions and, in modern political parlance, "doubling down". I have a real concern that this will end up creating exactly the division the act is designed to highlight and remove.4 -
i said i'm just a visitor to this topic - it was a suggestion - i don't know the history, i do know why people are booing, whether they are misinformed or not - going round in circles here - cut the link to the BLM knee thing and see what happens - do people boo on red, white and black day? Do people boo any of our black players? no - it has nothing to do with booing black people or the anti racist stance in my opinion so whether i and those booing are uneducated to the origins of the knee is irrelevantGrapevine49 said:Doucher you are helping no one - least of all yourself. There is no value to repeating the same assertion ignoring the challenge I posed. If you have genuinely held conversations about racial protest with black people how on earth did you not know TTK did not originate with the BLM political movement?
Stop posturing and posing deflection upon deflection.
Drew Brees a US Quarter Back spent over 20yrs in a football locker room with up to 70% of his playing colleagues being black and their life challenges still did not register. He even went on annual charity exercises among the community and he still didn’t get it. He had spent his life looking the other way. He gets it now because after an entirely inappropriate comment his locker room colleagues gave him the message loud and clear.
So either you are not asking the right questions or you are not listening.
I ask you again go back to these black acquaintances and ask just when they will have the « conversation « with their children about handling racial intolerance. I would quite like to know because I am grandfather to two delightful mixed race grand daughters.
That is real lives. That is their reality.1 -
Speaking purely personally I don’t believe people who say they boo because of politics or association with BLM.
I think it is a disingenuous smokescreen distraction argument designed to cover up a real desire to express their racism.
That is a personal opinion.9 -
It would be interesting to see and would perhaps help to identify what is actually going on. I wonder what objections the racists would raise next. I wonder what those who say that they support anti-racisn messages, but not taking the knee would then doStu_of_Kunming said:
I don’t think it will stop the booing, the racists will always find a reason to oppose a stand against their own misguided views.DOUCHER said:
it will stop people booing in the grounds yet still allow a signal / reminder before each kick off that racism has no place in football or society - its a practical solution, not the answer to the worlds problemsthenewbie said:
But you're "solution" doesn't solve anything. It won't make the ACTUAL problem go away or change anything.DOUCHER said:
btw - i haven't and won't boo it - i'm proposing a solution to get over what is going to be an ongoing problem in football groundsMuttleyCAFC said:
I am not calling you a racist, I don't know you but you have made contradictory statements. If the association with the BLM movement is the reason for the booing and nothing else, why make a general point that not much more can be done than is already being done regarding racism in this country. You could, after all, say that you agree with the sentiment behind it but not the way it is being expressed.DOUCHER said:
so are u saying i am racist or are u saying what i have said is a lie? i'm not racist and i do have many family, friends and colleagues who are black but i won't get into an argument with u because i remember u to be a very unstable character and i don't want to unbalance u any furthercantersaddick said:
A phrase rarely said in any other contect than trying to justify racismDOUCHER said:
my friend i have plenty of black co workers, family and acquaintances and they all agree that as a country, England can't do much more than they already do - the endless seminars and unconscious bias and this and that , diversity moments and all the rest of it that we now get at work - they all agree is total box ticking nonsense - it can't do any harm so i just go along with it as everybody else does but really? in 1970 there was a lot of room for improvement / awareness - now? if u r going to be racist then you are going to be - the vast majority aren't but i think a lot feel insulted that we have all this self analysis to do just because a complete wrong un was mishandled in america - there will always be rotten apples in a police force, there will always be idiots / racists on social media but the civil disobedience and breakdown in society linked to BLM and the riots in america - just pick a different signal and its problem solved in football grounds - u will never solve racism completely but to flood our country, one which does so much already, with all this OTT stuff is causing more problems than it is solvingrandy andy said:DOUCHER said:Why can't there be a middle ground here? why can't the players do something other than take the knee? those booing are doing so because they are anti the BLM movement (which i believe the knee thing started with?), the protests that ignored social distancing, the rioting and pillaging that went on and all the anti police and society stuff - it is not because they are racist (although there are bound to be a few). Maybe they can't do something else now as it will look bad on the BLM movement so an impasse has been reached. I watched that London riots thing on tv the other night and it seemed most of the rioting and anti society behaviour was undertaken by gangs and the dreggs, which seems to be the same in the recent one's in America. Why can't the players do a different signal and i'm sure there would be full support, as there is for the 'kick out racism' campaign and the red, white and black day stuff - never any booing then but people in this country don't like to have political stuff forced upon them in a sporting arena - change the signal from the knee to something else and its problem solved from what i can see
But you don't agree with the sentiment behind it do you? And ultimately that is why people are booing. They think this country is doing enough in relation to racism even though they have no direct experience of it and are tired of black people and some white people constantly moaning about it. That is the reason people boo and it has nothing to do with a movement that did not invent the gesture, nor has any members within its ranks of those players making the statement. And the fact that people are booing and players are getting abused is extending the gesture as those making it are seeing it as increasingly relevant.
But I take the point of other posters that it isn't really appropriate to try to restrict what other people choose to use as symbols of protest when they aren't doing any harm.... especially when it's mostly a bunch of white people telling people how to protest racism!
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so it is you that is missing the point grapevine - what do you propose to prevent an ongoing problem that will occur at every match up and down the country?0
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In which case, test it - change the protest to something less "divisive" - if they still boo, then your point is correct and there is no debate.seth plum said:Speaking purely personally I don’t believe people who say they boo because of politics or association with BLM.
I think it is a disingenuous smokescreen distraction argument designed to cover up a real desire to express their racism.
That is a personal opinion.1 -
I think it's worth noting that one of the effects of this "problem" is that it is prompting conversations and debate about (racial) inequalities in society.DOUCHER said:so it is you that is missing the point grapevine - what do you propose to prevent an ongoing problem that will occur at every match up and down the country?
It could be argued that the current methods are achieving that aim and so no change to them is required.
Not necessarily my view... but I can see that perspective.
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Seems like the problem is with the racists/fantasists booing the knee rather than the act of taking a knee itself.DOUCHER said:so it is you that is missing the point grapevine - what do you propose to prevent an ongoing problem that will occur at every match up and down the country?
Those people need to change, not the footballers.4 -
I don’t have the power to tell the footballers to change their protest method.SporadicAddick said:
In which case, test it - change the protest to something less "divisive" - if they still boo, then your point is correct and there is no debate.seth plum said:Speaking purely personally I don’t believe people who say they boo because of politics or association with BLM.
I think it is a disingenuous smokescreen distraction argument designed to cover up a real desire to express their racism.
That is a personal opinion.
Anyway it is not divisive from my point of view but a thoroughly good and justified action.0 -
I give up - i can see those that are entrenched in the view that all those booing are racist so pointless continuing the debate for me - lets see where we are in 2 months time when this situation continues to be an 'issue'. I reiterate, i will not be booing.2
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You must have noticed that the Kick It Out stuff wasn’t working. That’s why it was changed and stepped up.SporadicAddick said:
In which case, test it - change the protest to something less "divisive" - if they still boo, then your point is correct and there is no debate.seth plum said:Speaking purely personally I don’t believe people who say they boo because of politics or association with BLM.
I think it is a disingenuous smokescreen distraction argument designed to cover up a real desire to express their racism.
That is a personal opinion.
We’re well and truly in the realms of ‘protests that white men are comfortable with’ with your lovely t-shirt giveaway.2 -
I am missing no point because I have no problem with people booing. If it is a problem I would far rather it were out there to be addressed than people continuing to look the other way as society has either consciously or sub consciously sought to do for centuries.
I will challenge the need for it because the inclusion of the BLM political connotation is a deliberate attempt to deflect and conflate three entirely different issues.
So actually I welcome every complaint about TTK because it keeps the issue alive and keeps people uncomfortable. Racial protest is uncomfortable and will remain so.8 -
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Same.Karim_myBagheri said:
I have a couple of black mates but surprisingly unlike a lot of people on this thread, I have never actually had a deep conversation with them about racism.Cloudworm said:It’s lucky I’m not a racist because I have absolutely no black friends to refer to in my defence!0 -
I genuinely cannot believe someone is asking this question.DOUCHER said:
i said i'm just a visitor to this topic - it was a suggestion - i don't know the history, i do know why people are booing, whether they are misinformed or not - going round in circles here - cut the link to the BLM knee thing and see what happens - do people boo on red, white and black day? Do people boo any of our black players? no - it has nothing to do with booing black people or the anti racist stance in my opinion so whether i and those booing are uneducated to the origins of the knee is irrelevantGrapevine49 said:Doucher you are helping no one - least of all yourself. There is no value to repeating the same assertion ignoring the challenge I posed. If you have genuinely held conversations about racial protest with black people how on earth did you not know TTK did not originate with the BLM political movement?
Stop posturing and posing deflection upon deflection.
Drew Brees a US Quarter Back spent over 20yrs in a football locker room with up to 70% of his playing colleagues being black and their life challenges still did not register. He even went on annual charity exercises among the community and he still didn’t get it. He had spent his life looking the other way. He gets it now because after an entirely inappropriate comment his locker room colleagues gave him the message loud and clear.
So either you are not asking the right questions or you are not listening.
I ask you again go back to these black acquaintances and ask just when they will have the « conversation « with their children about handling racial intolerance. I would quite like to know because I am grandfather to two delightful mixed race grand daughters.
That is real lives. That is their reality.
YES. THEY. DO.0
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