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A petition to ban racists from football.
Comments
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Yes, but that is how this argument is being framed. We have to understand the context and for that reason, the gesture itself is not political. The Nazi's were a political party.0
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Well put. I appreciate the fact that you are acknowledging the thought processes and reasoning of some of the people involved. That feels like a good starting point for REALLY trying to address the issuesMuttleyCAFC said:
That confused me. Fighting inequality should not belong to the left or right. It is about right and wrong. Taking the knee is not a political act. It can't be, because the people doing it are not left wing activists, but millionaire footballers. Lewis Hamilton does it and he lives in a tax haven. So you are either thick if you can't work that one out or you seek to make it political for another reason.Chizz said:
Ok. So, you don't support it because you think it's become too political. And you think it needs to get more political.SteveKielyCambridge said:Chizz I do take your point and this is the last I will say on this because I have taken up too much of everyone's time, yours more than anyone. If I have been more belligerent than I intend, I do apologise.This cause is important to me for reasons that you have no way to know and that is not your fault.My purpose here is that I have seen altogether too many movements like this fritter away into nothing, and part of that process of frittering away begins with giving up the massive advantage of being non-political, as people think it is fine to have a pop at an MP or two according to their own political preferences. (I am not insisting that this is a fair assessment of the case here, but I have just seen this happen before). This is how a movement or campaign loses momentum and drifts away to nothing.To achieve things, I feel a campaign like this needs to get some leadership, start setting aims and goals, and, yes, get political. Otherwise in a year's time nothing will have changed, or worse, kneeling will just be 'something that happens at the start of a football match and we cannot quite remember why'.Building something to make change also involves listening to people who, at first, oppose you, trying to understand that they might want to achieve the same results but just in a different way, and avoiding the very reasonable temptation to just call them names. But, again, to be able to do that really needs leadership and structure.Again, I do think you have made some very important points, which I will consider.All the best.
Fair enough.
To find that reason, you have to look at what a lot of these anti WOKE mouth foamers views are on racism. These people are the I'm not racist but .... people the Government has courted in recent years. They don't go on EDF rallies and most never have, but they believe that Black people are moaning too much and they have a decent deal, often over working class white people. And they have nothing against foreigners and black people but there are too many of them in this country and we certainly don't want any more.
They opposed the Diversity dance saying they should be dancing about muggers - I think that is one of Jimbo's but he is talking to like minded people. It isn't anything to do with a left wing movement, but their own view and tiredness about winging anti-racists.0 -
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It’s not political. Never has beense9addick said:
How much do you need to earn before you are no longer capable of making political statements?MuttleyCAFC said:
That confused me. Fighting inequality should not belong to the left or right. It is about right and wrong. Taking the knee is not a political act. It can't be, because the people doing it are not left wing activists, but millionaire footballers. Lewis Hamilton does it and he lives in a tax haven. So you are either thick if you can't work that one out or you seek to make it political for another reason.Chizz said:
Ok. So, you don't support it because you think it's become too political. And you think it needs to get more political.SteveKielyCambridge said:Chizz I do take your point and this is the last I will say on this because I have taken up too much of everyone's time, yours more than anyone. If I have been more belligerent than I intend, I do apologise.This cause is important to me for reasons that you have no way to know and that is not your fault.My purpose here is that I have seen altogether too many movements like this fritter away into nothing, and part of that process of frittering away begins with giving up the massive advantage of being non-political, as people think it is fine to have a pop at an MP or two according to their own political preferences. (I am not insisting that this is a fair assessment of the case here, but I have just seen this happen before). This is how a movement or campaign loses momentum and drifts away to nothing.To achieve things, I feel a campaign like this needs to get some leadership, start setting aims and goals, and, yes, get political. Otherwise in a year's time nothing will have changed, or worse, kneeling will just be 'something that happens at the start of a football match and we cannot quite remember why'.Building something to make change also involves listening to people who, at first, oppose you, trying to understand that they might want to achieve the same results but just in a different way, and avoiding the very reasonable temptation to just call them names. But, again, to be able to do that really needs leadership and structure.Again, I do think you have made some very important points, which I will consider.All the best.
Fair enough.
To find that reason, you have to look at what a lot of these anti WOKE mouth foamers views are on racism. These people are the I'm not racist but .... people the Government has courted. They don't go on EDF rallies and most never have, but they believe that Black people are moaning too much and they have a decent deal, often over working class white people. They opposed the Diversity dance saying they should be dancing about muggers - I think that is one of Jimbo's but he is talking to like minded people. It isn't anything to do with a left wing movement, but their own view and tiredness about winging anti-racists.
Taking the knee is absolutely a political statement, regardless of the wealth of the sportsmen doing it, and good on them because they are doing the right thing. To think that sportsmen are incapable of making political statements and gestures because they are not “left wing activists” is nonsense.2 -
How power and agency is created/shared and who has access to it is absolutely “political”. Changing the fundamental social structures that have enabled the historic and systemic oppression of, including racism towards, minorities in this country and elsewhere is absolutely “political”. Good politics, but politics nonetheless. And I believe that sportsmen are just as entitled as any other demographic to share their political beliefs.Bedsaddick said:
It’s not political. Never has beense9addick said:
How much do you need to earn before you are no longer capable of making political statements?MuttleyCAFC said:
That confused me. Fighting inequality should not belong to the left or right. It is about right and wrong. Taking the knee is not a political act. It can't be, because the people doing it are not left wing activists, but millionaire footballers. Lewis Hamilton does it and he lives in a tax haven. So you are either thick if you can't work that one out or you seek to make it political for another reason.Chizz said:
Ok. So, you don't support it because you think it's become too political. And you think it needs to get more political.SteveKielyCambridge said:Chizz I do take your point and this is the last I will say on this because I have taken up too much of everyone's time, yours more than anyone. If I have been more belligerent than I intend, I do apologise.This cause is important to me for reasons that you have no way to know and that is not your fault.My purpose here is that I have seen altogether too many movements like this fritter away into nothing, and part of that process of frittering away begins with giving up the massive advantage of being non-political, as people think it is fine to have a pop at an MP or two according to their own political preferences. (I am not insisting that this is a fair assessment of the case here, but I have just seen this happen before). This is how a movement or campaign loses momentum and drifts away to nothing.To achieve things, I feel a campaign like this needs to get some leadership, start setting aims and goals, and, yes, get political. Otherwise in a year's time nothing will have changed, or worse, kneeling will just be 'something that happens at the start of a football match and we cannot quite remember why'.Building something to make change also involves listening to people who, at first, oppose you, trying to understand that they might want to achieve the same results but just in a different way, and avoiding the very reasonable temptation to just call them names. But, again, to be able to do that really needs leadership and structure.Again, I do think you have made some very important points, which I will consider.All the best.
Fair enough.
To find that reason, you have to look at what a lot of these anti WOKE mouth foamers views are on racism. These people are the I'm not racist but .... people the Government has courted. They don't go on EDF rallies and most never have, but they believe that Black people are moaning too much and they have a decent deal, often over working class white people. They opposed the Diversity dance saying they should be dancing about muggers - I think that is one of Jimbo's but he is talking to like minded people. It isn't anything to do with a left wing movement, but their own view and tiredness about winging anti-racists.
Taking the knee is absolutely a political statement, regardless of the wealth of the sportsmen doing it, and good on them because they are doing the right thing. To think that sportsmen are incapable of making political statements and gestures because they are not “left wing activists” is nonsense.I think people arguing that it isn’t political fundamentally misunderstand the meaning of the word.4 -
I think you are trying to be too clever and painting too broad a brush that doesn't need to be used. The gesture isn't political unless you chose to be pedantic about what political is in this case. You could probably argue that everything is political.0
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I never try to be clever!MuttleyCAFC said:I think you are trying to be too clever and painting too broad a brush that doesn't need to be used. The gesture isn't political unless you chose to be pedantic about what political is in this case.2 -
Everything is politicalMuttleyCAFC said:I think you are trying to be too clever and painting too broad a brush that doesn't need to be used. The gesture isn't political unless you chose to be pedantic about what political is in this case. You could probably argue that everything is political.0 -
I would say in terms of England taking the knee that it isn't political but the opposition to it is.1
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I don't really understand what all the fuss is about to be honest.
If you support the taking the knee then feel free to clap while it takes place.
If you don't agree with it then simply ignore it.
It only lasts for a few seconds so i don't understand why some are getting so wound up by it.18 - Sponsored links:
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Spot onblackpool72 said:I don't really understand what all the fuss is about to be honest.
If you support the taking the knee then feel free to clap while it takes place.
If you don't agree with it then simply ignore it.
It only lasts for a few seconds so i don't understand why some are getting so wound up by it.0 -
To be fair, I am doing what they are doing to the footballers by assuming their motives. So it is important that I say that some may well be stupid enough to think that Southgate and his boys are members of an extreme left political party to escape that accusation.Siv_in_Norfolk said:
Well put. I appreciate the fact that you are acknowledging the thought processes and reasoning of some of the people involved. That feels like a good starting point for REALLY trying to address the issuesMuttleyCAFC said:
That confused me. Fighting inequality should not belong to the left or right. It is about right and wrong. Taking the knee is not a political act. It can't be, because the people doing it are not left wing activists, but millionaire footballers. Lewis Hamilton does it and he lives in a tax haven. So you are either thick if you can't work that one out or you seek to make it political for another reason.Chizz said:
Ok. So, you don't support it because you think it's become too political. And you think it needs to get more political.SteveKielyCambridge said:Chizz I do take your point and this is the last I will say on this because I have taken up too much of everyone's time, yours more than anyone. If I have been more belligerent than I intend, I do apologise.This cause is important to me for reasons that you have no way to know and that is not your fault.My purpose here is that I have seen altogether too many movements like this fritter away into nothing, and part of that process of frittering away begins with giving up the massive advantage of being non-political, as people think it is fine to have a pop at an MP or two according to their own political preferences. (I am not insisting that this is a fair assessment of the case here, but I have just seen this happen before). This is how a movement or campaign loses momentum and drifts away to nothing.To achieve things, I feel a campaign like this needs to get some leadership, start setting aims and goals, and, yes, get political. Otherwise in a year's time nothing will have changed, or worse, kneeling will just be 'something that happens at the start of a football match and we cannot quite remember why'.Building something to make change also involves listening to people who, at first, oppose you, trying to understand that they might want to achieve the same results but just in a different way, and avoiding the very reasonable temptation to just call them names. But, again, to be able to do that really needs leadership and structure.Again, I do think you have made some very important points, which I will consider.All the best.
Fair enough.
To find that reason, you have to look at what a lot of these anti WOKE mouth foamers views are on racism. These people are the I'm not racist but .... people the Government has courted in recent years. They don't go on EDF rallies and most never have, but they believe that Black people are moaning too much and they have a decent deal, often over working class white people. And they have nothing against foreigners and black people but there are too many of them in this country and we certainly don't want any more.
They opposed the Diversity dance saying they should be dancing about muggers - I think that is one of Jimbo's but he is talking to like minded people. It isn't anything to do with a left wing movement, but their own view and tiredness about winging anti-racists.0 -
i agree, to actually boo it means you see it as evil - it's literally what we do in a pantomime to the villain. You'd have to be one hella racist to see anti racism as evil.blackpool72 said:I don't really understand what all the fuss is about to be honest.
If you support the taking the knee then feel free to clap while it takes place.
If you don't agree with it then simply ignore it.
It only lasts for a few seconds so i don't understand why some are getting so wound up by it.3 -
Yes, I don't think one poster has advocated everybody should clap it or even agree with it. The point is they shouldn't boo it.0
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@Pr@PragueAddick you’re right, I did what I complained myself about in playing the man, rather than the ball, but believe me it was not a dig at you, just the current mood music that you happened to comment on at that point. Genuine apologies if that did not seem that way.PragueAddick said:@TheOrganiser I dont think I really needed that lecture, but I take it as you just getting it off your chest. You wouldnt know this but I’ve had equally furious arguments on Czech Twitter the last few days, basically saying what you are saying.But lets not pretend that it was just 10 people or just a hundred at it last week. You know that there are a lot of them. Not you, and doubtless not the people you hang out with on the away trips. When you return to Wembley, there is no way that you can guarantee the core of England away fans can orchestrate the mood and behaviour of the whole crowd.But my point was that unfortunately we have people with racist sympathies in this government and at organs like The Sun, but when they “read the room”’ they then tried to cover it up. Tyrone Mings has taken them out, in one stonking tackle
I know there are more of them and they appear like a nasty rash at certain times, but I genuinely don’t see it as a football problem, but a social one. If this was a black z list on big brother or any such trash tv show, who has caused a stir, they too would no doubt get these same comments from the same pond life.
Equally, you have just as much racism from other communities, but that does not seem to resonate with the media, govt or liberal joe Bloggs who doesn’t see outside his comfort zone.1 -
blackpool72 said:I don't really understand what all the fuss is about to be honest.
If you support the taking the knee then feel free to clap while it takes place.
If you don't agree with it then simply ignore it.
It only lasts for a few seconds so i don't understand why some are getting so wound up by it.
My one question is, how can anyone not agree with it?2 -
I think we all have different ideas of the meaning of politics. Actually I was surprised how many definitions limit it to issues around government, and I think quite a few people have that narrow definition in their minds. I think @SteveKielyCambridge worries that an action like Mings' tweet or the petition quickly becomes subsumed in party politics. To my surprise, the most open definition of the word I found is on Wikipedia...
the set of activities that are associated with making decisions in groups, or other forms of power relations between individuals, such as the distribution of resources or status.
Now more than ever we have a class of party politicians who have never done anything else in their lives of any merit. Starting with our PM, who is a failed journalist. They think that politics is some kind of profession. Then it gets worse, they start to think that nobody from outside this "profession", but with a public profile, has the right to use their public profile to criticise them. So you end up with career politicians like Gove slagging off 'experts", Whitty being attacked by a mob, and twats like this one, vaguely part of the political "profession" coming out with this appalling tweet back at Mings. Look on it and wonder at the industrial levels of entitlement and presumed power over us ordinary citizens. "Submission"...!!??!! WTAF?
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Thats a very fair point and the game should show zero tolerance, just as I believe society is moving towards. There have been far to many 'he is not that sort of player' smoke screens put out, all the time its clear how someone within the game has behaved. Your right there is a case that double standards are at play, I do get that.clb74 said:
Why do I get vexed Clive?SE7toSG3 said:I struggle why people are getting so vexed over this, no-one is asking anyone to take the knee or even show visible/audible support for a group of players taking the knee, (a group of players who have consistently said their gesture is not political but something they feel they need to do).
All that is being asked is that people respect their 10 second gesture and not to boo it.
If you don't agree don't engage, to actively boo when a group of players decide they want to do this just seems provocatively childish to me.
Because in my view in football we only deal with racism when we want to.
We can have a player racially abuse another player and yes to me its basically swept under the carpet 8 match ban.
This ban was accepted by the majority of fans and by football clubs.
Dave from bilericay boos the taking of the knee and we want him banned for life.0 -
“submission”, Christ, what a choice of word.PragueAddick said:I think we all have different ideas of the meaning of politics. Actually I was surprised how many definitions limit it to issues around government, and I think quite a few people have that narrow definition in their minds. I think @SteveKielyCambridge worries that an action like Mings' tweet or the petition quickly becomes subsumed in party politics. To my surprise, the most open definition of the word I found is on Wikipedia...
the set of activities that are associated with making decisions in groups, or other forms of power relations between individuals, such as the distribution of resources or status.
Now more than ever we have a class of party politicians who have never done anything else in their lives of any merit. Starting with our PM, who is a failed journalist. They think that politics is some kind of profession. Then it gets worse, they start to think that nobody from outside this "profession", but with a public profile, has the right to use their public profile to criticise them. So you end up with career politicians like Gove slagging off 'experts", Whitty being attacked by a mob, and twats like this one, vaguely part of the political "profession" coming out with this appalling tweet back at Mings. Look on it and wonder at the industrial levels of entitlement and presumed power over us ordinary citizens. "Submission"...!!??!! WTAF?1 -
Surprisingly, I think some people may not agree with it because it is not political and/or is unlikely to achieve anything. But that reason wouldn't mean they would boo those doing it.colthe3rd said:blackpool72 said:I don't really understand what all the fuss is about to be honest.
If you support the taking the knee then feel free to clap while it takes place.
If you don't agree with it then simply ignore it.
It only lasts for a few seconds so i don't understand why some are getting so wound up by it.
My one question is, how can anyone not agree with it?0 - Sponsored links:
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Oh no it isn’tkentaddick said:
i agree, to actually boo it means you see it as evil - it's literally what we do in a pantomime to the villain. You'd have to be one hella racist to see anti racism as evil.blackpool72 said:I don't really understand what all the fuss is about to be honest.
If you support the taking the knee then feel free to clap while it takes place.
If you don't agree with it then simply ignore it.
It only lasts for a few seconds so i don't understand why some are getting so wound up by it.6 -
Because they don't like being called out by the 'entertainment'.se9addick said:I don’t understand why people suddenly have an issue with footballers “being political”?
After generations of having footballers with nothing interesting to say or sounding thick as two planks when they did say it, England seem to have a team composed of articulate, intelligent, young men and I find them sharing their experiences and the things they stand for really refreshing.I would guess the people that think these players shouldn’t “be political” by standing against social injustice and racism are the same people that love the wearing of poppies on shirts and the playing of God Save the Queen before matches.
They're not allowed to be people with their own opinions.1 -
Tweet from BBC Have I got News for You
'Amid calls to ban racist fans from grounds indefinitely, clubs argue they'd struggle to survive with audiences of 12'
This is what BBC comedians think of us. Despite it being a very, very tiny minority of racist tweeters who started all of this. They think all football fans are thick racists.5 -
I haven’t read the other posts so forgive me if this is old news but I remember the only time I’ve witnessed racism in a Charlton crowd ever - 2000/01 season away at Villa- one fan made monkey gestures at Ian Taylor when he scored a goal . I was about 14 and I remember feeling indelibly upset about it. I support the players taking the knee and wholly back lifetime bans for these vile people on social media .5
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Southbank said:Tweet from BBC Have I got News for You
'Amid calls to ban racist fans from grounds indefinitely, clubs argue they'd struggle to survive with audiences of 12'
This is what BBC comedians think of us. Despite it being a very, very tiny minority of racist tweeters who started all of this. They think all football fans are thick racists.Well they’re only working with the gift they’re given by the racist idiots.0 -
Christ, I knew BBC comedy had got bad but not that shit….Southbank said:Tweet from BBC Have I got News for You
'Amid calls to ban racist fans from grounds indefinitely, clubs argue they'd struggle to survive with audiences of 12'
This is what BBC comedians think of us. Despite it being a very, very tiny minority of racist tweeters who started all of this. They think all football fans are thick racists.0 -
Can’t be true, @ch@Chizz says that is not being suggested or implied by anyone that English football fans are racist 🙄Southbank said:Tweet from BBC Have I got News for You
'Amid calls to ban racist fans from grounds indefinitely, clubs argue they'd struggle to survive with audiences of 12'
This is what BBC comedians think of us. Despite it being a very, very tiny minority of racist tweeters who started all of this. They think all football fans are thick racists.2 -
Yes, they definitely 100% fully truly believe this to be absolutely factual and are in no way exaggerating for comedic effect.Southbank said:Tweet from BBC Have I got News for You
'Amid calls to ban racist fans from grounds indefinitely, clubs argue they'd struggle to survive with audiences of 12'
This is what BBC comedians think of us. Despite it being a very, very tiny minority of racist tweeters who started all of this. They think all football fans are thick racists.
God help me but there are some very thin skins around here.7 -
No. I said that no-one is calling all football fans racist.The_Organiser said:
Can’t be true, @ch@Chizz says that is not being suggested or implied by anyone that English football fans are racist 🙄Southbank said:Tweet from BBC Have I got News for You
'Amid calls to ban racist fans from grounds indefinitely, clubs argue they'd struggle to survive with audiences of 12'
This is what BBC comedians think of us. Despite it being a very, very tiny minority of racist tweeters who started all of this. They think all football fans are thick racists.0 -
It’s a cheap laugh.
Get over yourselves it’s not important.
It’s been a constant refrain for at least the last 60 years.
And doesn’t really matter.1
This discussion has been closed.
