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Hyperandrogenism / Caster Semenya & others

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  • hoof_it_up_to_benty
    hoof_it_up_to_benty Posts: 22,441
    Dazzler21 said:
    I actually think that the decision is the correct decision. As she has unusually high T levels the playing field is not level unless they manage her levels. 
    Why just pick on testosterone? There are a number of factors that don't make for a level playing field.

    Simolest solution is to remove gender categories. 
  • Big_Bad_World
    Big_Bad_World Posts: 5,859
    edited May 2019
    hoof_it_up_to_benty said:
    Dazzler21 said:
    I actually think that the decision is the correct decision. As she has unusually high T levels the playing field is not level unless they manage her levels. 
    Why just pick on testosterone? There are a number of factors that don't make for a level playing field.

    Simolest solution is to remove gender categories. 
    Not sure I'd be happy with seeing the end to women's athletics. How would you feel about disbanding the Charlton ladies team and them being told that there's one team now and that they have to compete with and against men?
  • Leuth
    Leuth Posts: 23,313
    The simplest solution is to allow a woman who's lived her whole life as a woman, who has female chromosomes and female genitalia, to compete in women's athletics 
  • Leuth
    Leuth Posts: 23,313
    And obviously I'm no great fan of biological essentialism either, but this is a case where the biology surely helps her cause!
  • Covered End
    Covered End Posts: 51,989
    edited May 2019
    https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en-GB&biw=1366&bih=625&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=DK7JXL-UH6-LlwT0tIywDA&q=castor+semenya&oq=castor+semenya&gs_l=img.12...0.0..58444...0.0..0.0.0.......1......gws-wiz-img.PdDpUKm78rI

    She has the physique of a man, when you view photographs.
    It's a shame for her, but it's certainly not fair for Semenya to compete with women.
  • Covered End
    Covered End Posts: 51,989
    Why do we split kids football ?
    Let the U8's play the U23's in future.
  • Leuth
    Leuth Posts: 23,313
    *steps away from the keyboard*
  • PaddyP17
    PaddyP17 Posts: 13,035
    Leuth said:
    This is dreadful of course and hardly even to do with sport. This is, as usual, about the policing of women's bodies, with a side-order of racial discrimination 
    You know me man, I'm pretty damn liberal, but I'm struggling to see your thought processes that have led to this conclusion.

    I sort of get the policing bodies thing, but when we're talking about something in the context of an all-women arena, I don't think it's quite the right angle.

    As for racial discrimination - black athletes tend to dominate track and field anyway. I don't think Semenya's "blackness" is (consciously) affecting the decision making here.
  • Big_Bad_World
    Big_Bad_World Posts: 5,859
    edited May 2019
    Covered End said:
    Why do we split kids football ?
    Let the U8's play the U23's in future.
    You may jest but the Australian women's national team lost 7-0 to an U16 boys junior team in 2016. 
  • PaddyP17
    PaddyP17 Posts: 13,035
    Covered End said:
    https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en-GB&biw=1366&bih=625&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=DK7JXL-UH6-LlwT0tIywDA&q=castor+semenya&oq=castor+semenya&gs_l=img.12...0.0..58444...0.0..0.0.0.......1......gws-wiz-img.PdDpUKm78rI

    She has the physique of a man, when you view photographs.
    It's a shame for her, but it's certainly not fair for Semanya to compete with women.
    I am delighted you're not an authority on the matter. And I suspect most others share that sentiment.
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  • Covered End
    Covered End Posts: 51,989
    PaddyP17 said:
    Covered End said:
    https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en-GB&biw=1366&bih=625&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=DK7JXL-UH6-LlwT0tIywDA&q=castor+semenya&oq=castor+semenya&gs_l=img.12...0.0..58444...0.0..0.0.0.......1......gws-wiz-img.PdDpUKm78rI

    She has the physique of a man, when you view photographs.
    It's a shame for her, but it's certainly not fair for Semanya to compete with women.
    I am delighted you're not an authority on the matter. And I suspect most others share that sentiment.
    So if you "cover up" the longer bit of hair at the back, you don't think she looks like a man ?
    She looks like a much more rugged man than I do.
  • hoof_it_up_to_benty
    hoof_it_up_to_benty Posts: 22,441
    Big_Bad_World said:
    hoof_it_up_to_benty said:
    Dazzler21 said:
    I actually think that the decision is the correct decision. As she has unusually high T levels the playing field is not level unless they manage her levels. 
    Why just pick on testosterone? There are a number of factors that don't make for a level playing field.

    Simolest solution is to remove gender categories. 
    Not sure I'd be happy with seeing the end to women's athletics. How would you feel about disbanding the Charlton ladies team and them being told that there's one team now and that they have to compete with and against men?
    We seem to be reaching a point where we are unable to clearly define genders - from a legal perspective this will be a minefield.

    Where do intersex, transgender etc competitors compete and should they have separate categories? 

    There is no simple answer. 
  • Big_Bad_World
    Big_Bad_World Posts: 5,859
    hoof_it_up_to_benty said:
    Big_Bad_World said:
    hoof_it_up_to_benty said:
    Dazzler21 said:
    I actually think that the decision is the correct decision. As she has unusually high T levels the playing field is not level unless they manage her levels. 
    Why just pick on testosterone? There are a number of factors that don't make for a level playing field.

    Simolest solution is to remove gender categories. 
    Not sure I'd be happy with seeing the end to women's athletics. How would you feel about disbanding the Charlton ladies team and them being told that there's one team now and that they have to compete with and against men?
    We seem to be reaching a point where we are unable to clearly define genders - from a legal perspective this will be a minefield.

    Where do intersex, transgender etc competitors compete and should they have separate categories? 

    There is no simple answer. 
    Biological sex and today's definition of gender are two separate things. Competition should be based on biological sex, not gender.

    That's about the long and short of it, which is what makes Semenya and Chand's cases so controversial. I'm actually on their side in this instance as they're biological females that just happen to have a rare form of increased testosterone that gives them somewhat of a competitive edge.
  • SuedeAdidas
    SuedeAdidas Posts: 7,737
    hoof_it_up_to_benty said:
    Big_Bad_World said:
    hoof_it_up_to_benty said:
    Dazzler21 said:
    I actually think that the decision is the correct decision. As she has unusually high T levels the playing field is not level unless they manage her levels. 
    Why just pick on testosterone? There are a number of factors that don't make for a level playing field.

    Simolest solution is to remove gender categories. 
    Not sure I'd be happy with seeing the end to women's athletics. How would you feel about disbanding the Charlton ladies team and them being told that there's one team now and that they have to compete with and against men?
    We seem to be reaching a point where we are unable to clearly define genders - from a legal perspective this will be a minefield.

    Where do intersex, transgender etc competitors compete and should they have separate categories? 

    There is no simple answer. 
    Seems to me like there will be new categories of athletes created that are specific to their “type” - similar to what currently happens in Paralympics. 
  • eaststandmike
    eaststandmike Posts: 14,956
    Covered End said:
    PaddyP17 said:
    Covered End said:
    https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en-GB&biw=1366&bih=625&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=DK7JXL-UH6-LlwT0tIywDA&q=castor+semenya&oq=castor+semenya&gs_l=img.12...0.0..58444...0.0..0.0.0.......1......gws-wiz-img.PdDpUKm78rI

    She has the physique of a man, when you view photographs.
    It's a shame for her, but it's certainly not fair for Semanya to compete with women.
    I am delighted you're not an authority on the matter. And I suspect most others share that sentiment.
    So if you "cover up" the longer bit of hair at the back, you don't think she looks like a man ?
    She looks like a much more rugged man than I do.
    Looks more rugged than you and I bet she prunes her own tree's  ;)  
  • hoof_it_up_to_benty
    hoof_it_up_to_benty Posts: 22,441
    Big_Bad_World said:
    hoof_it_up_to_benty said:
    Big_Bad_World said:
    hoof_it_up_to_benty said:
    Dazzler21 said:
    I actually think that the decision is the correct decision. As she has unusually high T levels the playing field is not level unless they manage her levels. 
    Why just pick on testosterone? There are a number of factors that don't make for a level playing field.

    Simolest solution is to remove gender categories. 
    Not sure I'd be happy with seeing the end to women's athletics. How would you feel about disbanding the Charlton ladies team and them being told that there's one team now and that they have to compete with and against men?
    We seem to be reaching a point where we are unable to clearly define genders - from a legal perspective this will be a minefield.

    Where do intersex, transgender etc competitors compete and should they have separate categories? 

    There is no simple answer. 
    Biological sex and today's definition of gender are two separate things. Competition should be based on biological sex, not gender.

    That's about the long and short of it, which is what makes Semenya and Chand's cases so controversial. I'm actually on their side in this instance as they're biological females that just happen to have a rare form of increased testosterone that gives them somewhat of a competitive edge.
    I don't think the biological sex definition is as clear cut as you're saying. The athletics authorities have struggled with it for a long time and the focus on testosterone seems a bit arbitary.


  • SuedeAdidas
    SuedeAdidas Posts: 7,737
    eaststandmike said:
    Covered End said:
    PaddyP17 said:
    Covered End said:
    https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en-GB&biw=1366&bih=625&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=DK7JXL-UH6-LlwT0tIywDA&q=castor+semenya&oq=castor+semenya&gs_l=img.12...0.0..58444...0.0..0.0.0.......1......gws-wiz-img.PdDpUKm78rI

    She has the physique of a man, when you view photographs.
    It's a shame for her, but it's certainly not fair for Semanya to compete with women.
    I am delighted you're not an authority on the matter. And I suspect most others share that sentiment.
    So if you "cover up" the longer bit of hair at the back, you don't think she looks like a man ?
    She looks like a much more rugged man than I do.
    Looks more rugged than you and I bet she prunes her own tree's  ;)  
    Is that a euphemism for shaving her plums?
  • PaddyP17
    PaddyP17 Posts: 13,035
    Covered End said:
    PaddyP17 said:
    Covered End said:
    https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en-GB&biw=1366&bih=625&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=DK7JXL-UH6-LlwT0tIywDA&q=castor+semenya&oq=castor+semenya&gs_l=img.12...0.0..58444...0.0..0.0.0.......1......gws-wiz-img.PdDpUKm78rI

    She has the physique of a man, when you view photographs.
    It's a shame for her, but it's certainly not fair for Semanya to compete with women.
    I am delighted you're not an authority on the matter. And I suspect most others share that sentiment.
    So if you "cover up" the longer bit of hair at the back, you don't think she looks like a man ?
    She looks like a much more rugged man than I do.
    It's more that you've basically said "she looks like a man and therefore shouldn't be allowed to compete against women".

    That's reductive, simplistic, and redundant in myriad ways, doing nothing to advance the conversation.
  • Big_Bad_World
    Big_Bad_World Posts: 5,859
    edited May 2019
    hoof_it_up_to_benty said:
    Big_Bad_World said:
    hoof_it_up_to_benty said:
    Big_Bad_World said:
    hoof_it_up_to_benty said:
    Dazzler21 said:
    I actually think that the decision is the correct decision. As she has unusually high T levels the playing field is not level unless they manage her levels. 
    Why just pick on testosterone? There are a number of factors that don't make for a level playing field.

    Simolest solution is to remove gender categories. 
    Not sure I'd be happy with seeing the end to women's athletics. How would you feel about disbanding the Charlton ladies team and them being told that there's one team now and that they have to compete with and against men?
    We seem to be reaching a point where we are unable to clearly define genders - from a legal perspective this will be a minefield.

    Where do intersex, transgender etc competitors compete and should they have separate categories? 

    There is no simple answer. 
    Biological sex and today's definition of gender are two separate things. Competition should be based on biological sex, not gender.

    That's about the long and short of it, which is what makes Semenya and Chand's cases so controversial. I'm actually on their side in this instance as they're biological females that just happen to have a rare form of increased testosterone that gives them somewhat of a competitive edge.
    I don't think the biological sex definition is as clear cut as you're saying. The athletics authorities have struggled with it for a long time and the focus on testosterone seems a bit arbitary.


    Maybe their regulations need to be changed to include other hormonal and genetic targets. The risk then is making the entry harder for those we seek to help. It's easier to make something worse, by changing the rules, than it is to make something better. Especially if what you're looking to change is already running at a pretty optimal level and in a largely fair way.
  • Covered End
    Covered End Posts: 51,989
    edited May 2019
    PaddyP17 said:
    Covered End said:
    PaddyP17 said:
    Covered End said:
    https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en-GB&biw=1366&bih=625&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=DK7JXL-UH6-LlwT0tIywDA&q=castor+semenya&oq=castor+semenya&gs_l=img.12...0.0..58444...0.0..0.0.0.......1......gws-wiz-img.PdDpUKm78rI

    She has the physique of a man, when you view photographs.
    It's a shame for her, but it's certainly not fair for Semanya to compete with women.
    I am delighted you're not an authority on the matter. And I suspect most others share that sentiment.
    So if you "cover up" the longer bit of hair at the back, you don't think she looks like a man ?
    She looks like a much more rugged man than I do.
    It's more that you've basically said "she looks like a man and therefore shouldn't be allowed to compete against women".

    That's reductive, simplistic, and redundant in myriad ways, doing nothing to advance the conversation.
    I never said because she looks like a man she shouldn't be allowed to compete against women.

    It's the high testosterone levels, which enable her to have a man's physique, which gives her an unfair advantage over the other competitors.

    I believe in being fair, but fair to everyone. I don't think one person's rights has priority over let's say 1,000 women's rights.

    I think the answer has to be separate categories, with like being able to compete with like.

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  • hoof_it_up_to_benty
    hoof_it_up_to_benty Posts: 22,441
    I admire the strength of character Semenya has shown to keep going given the massive anount of abuse levelled at her. It must be a very difficult life to be villified in such a public manner.
  • Six-a-bag-of-nuts
    Six-a-bag-of-nuts Posts: 8,127
    Leuth said:
    And obviously I'm no great fan of biological essentialism either,
    Neither is my Nan.

    What?  ;)
  • seth plum
    seth plum Posts: 53,448
    So they're going to test athletes to make sure they haven't taken stuff, and test athletes to make sure they have taken stuff.

  • JollyRobin
    JollyRobin Posts: 1,706
    edited May 2019
    Leuth said:
    This is dreadful of course and hardly even to do with sport. This is, as usual, about the policing of women's bodies, with a side-order of racial discrimination 
    Covered End said:
    She has the physique of a man, when you view photographs.
    It's a shame for her, but it's certainly not fair for Semenya to compete with women.
     There's certainly some tough competition for "worst take" award on this thread.
  • lolwray
    lolwray Posts: 4,899
    eaststandmike said:
    Covered End said:
    PaddyP17 said:
    Covered End said:
    https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en-GB&biw=1366&bih=625&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=DK7JXL-UH6-LlwT0tIywDA&q=castor+semenya&oq=castor+semenya&gs_l=img.12...0.0..58444...0.0..0.0.0.......1......gws-wiz-img.PdDpUKm78rI

    She has the physique of a man, when you view photographs.
    It's a shame for her, but it's certainly not fair for Semanya to compete with women.
    I am delighted you're not an authority on the matter. And I suspect most others share that sentiment.
    So if you "cover up" the longer bit of hair at the back, you don't think she looks like a man ?
    She looks like a much more rugged man than I do.
    Looks more rugged than you and I bet she prunes her own tree's  ;)  
    I thought this was some kind of euphemism and then I realized 
  • lolwray
    lolwray Posts: 4,899
    I think the whole thing is a shame ..if she is biologically a female and doesn't enhance her metabolism illegally she should be left alone ...I think they created a very dangerous and unsafe precedent ...

    She isn't a cheat 
  • MuttleyCAFC
    MuttleyCAFC Posts: 47,728
    It is an issue for women's sport though. On one side, you could argue that you can't penalise a basketball player for being 7ft, even though he/she has an advantage over a 5ft player. But in Semenya's case, you are saying  to women with normal testosterone levels that they might as well not bother competing as they won't beat her. But her argument is like the basketball player, it is a natural advantage. 

    The logical solution is for women to compete with men, then it won't matter. But we know that is certain aspects they can't. The whole notion of women's sport accepts its participants are not the strongest or fastest. Because there is women's sport (as there should be) I don't think it is possible to find a fair solution.
  • Stig
    Stig Posts: 29,021
    MuttleyCAFC said:
    It is an issue for women's sport though. On one side, you could argue that you can't penalise a basketball player for being 7ft, even though he/she has an advantage over a 5ft player. But in Semenya's case, you are saying  to women with normal testosterone levels that they might as well not bother competing as they won't beat her. But her argument is like the basketball player, it is a natural advantage. 

    The logical solution is for women to compete with men, then it won't matter. But we know that is certain aspects they can't. The whole notion of women's sport accepts its participants are not the strongest or fastest. Because there is women's sport (as there should be) I don't think it is possible to find a fair solution.
    What exactly is 'normal' though? She's a natural human being living a healthy life and isn't trying to enhance her body through use of artificial drugs or stimulants. What could be more normal? It's only societal pressures that decide what normal is, there's nothing intrinsic about 'normal'.
  • nth_london_addick
    nth_london_addick Posts: 35,919
    It’s 100% right that they bring it to a level playing field 

    what’s she scared of healthy competition for once 


  • Redvalleyeast
    Redvalleyeast Posts: 4,689
    clive said:

    Caster Semenya has lost a landmark case against athletics' governing body meaning it will be allowed to restrict testosterone levels in female runners.

    The Court of Arbitration for Sport (Cas) rejected the South African's challenge against the IAAF's new rules.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/48102479

    Well,thats bollocks....

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