Hyperandrogenism / Caster Semenya & others
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*Nepalese0
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*Leap seen0
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This is a really difficult case, but shouldn't be. At the elite level of sport we are talking about tiny fractions of percentages difference between the 8 people in a final. All 8 will be the absolute pinnacle of the species at that event with top notch training, nutrition and medical support. Alongside this all will have superior genetics that have led them to be able to perform at that level. I suspect in an event like the 800m all will have a similar vo2 max, similar mix of fast and slow switch fibres and similar anaerobic respiration thresholds. Semanya also has an genetic makeup that means she produces more testosterone than the physiological norm for females. She has also had to put up with years of extra scrutiny, snide remarks and outright insults, I suspect the psychological strength she has to deal with that is far more effective than the extra testosterone at allowing her to push herself to the absolute limit.
She is a woman, and as such competes in the female category. Good luck to her.7 -
Ignorance.harveys gardener said:Surprised Semenya has the balls to compete as a female athlete. Must know what training her contemporaries do. Doubt she does half.
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What would you say if Sharp was your daughter ?
Not only have you to put up with the state drugged cheating
Russians. but someone, because Nature can do some strange things,
has the body and Testosterone of a man. but because she doesn't have a penis is still classified as a Woman.
I would say try another sport. (not weight lifting)0 -
I would say 'have you considered trying to have her banned?'
'If you can't get her banned can you undermine her confidence in some other way?'
'If that doesn't work, can you get another competitor to trip her up fairly regularly?'
'Are you happy with Silver?'
'I know a guy who knows a guy who could make this problem go away for a few G, how important to you is this, is it worth a life?'
And if she said yes, I would talk to her about her priorities and maybe then disown her or never speak to her again.0 -
I didn't mean if the dad or daughter was in the Mafia !0
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What if your son had to compete against Phelps ?soapboxsam said:What would you say if Sharp was your daughter ?
Not only have you to put up with the state drugged cheating
Russians. but someone, because Nature can do some strange things,
has the body and Testosterone of a man. but because she doesn't have a penis is still classified as a Woman.
I would say try another sport. (not weight lifting)
It seems extraordinary to me that people will overlook male competitors who have genetic advantages over their rivals but will concentrate on this. Has anyone who thinks CS shouldn't compete against women explained why Phelps should be allowed to compete against "normal" men ?1 -
SE9 are you serious ?se9addick said:
What if your son had to compete against Phelps ?soapboxsam said:What would you say if Sharp was your daughter ?
Not only have you to put up with the state drugged cheating
Russians. but someone, because Nature can do some strange things,
has the body and Testosterone of a man. but because she doesn't have a penis is still classified as a Woman.
I would say try another sport. (not weight lifting)
It seems extraordinary to me that people will overlook male competitors who have genetic advantages over the rivals but will concentrate on this. Has anyone who thinks CS shouldn't compete against women explained why Phelps should be allowed to compete against "normal" men ?
In every sport some men have a born advantage over other men.
Going back to Bjorn Borg he had such a slow heart beat that he had a big advantage over other Tennis players who had a "Normal" heart beat.
but he could be beaten. Not often at Wimbledon thou.
Phelps had this great lung Capacity but he could be beaten as Chad le clos
proved when he was only 20 in London 2012.
Caster Semenya can't be beaten by a female athlete, who has a average 2% testosterone against a "Female" Athlete with over 10% in a 800 metre race.
I'm not saying she should take the medication but when she did she came last in a race that i watched.
The athletes who feel they shouldn't race against her should stay on their blocks and force the power that be to make a decision.
Otherwise the 99% are suffering so the 1% can jog round and win races in a canter.
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I'd have thought it's because Phelps' "genetic advantage" doesn't cross the gender divide and the lady's does. The first way competitors get divided up in most, if not all, sports is on their sex. If we started dividing competitors up on how far their arms bent back, or if they can touch their nose with their tongue, then imo your point would stand, but we don't do we?se9addick said:
What if your son had to compete against Phelps ?soapboxsam said:What would you say if Sharp was your daughter ?
Not only have you to put up with the state drugged cheating
Russians. but someone, because Nature can do some strange things,
has the body and Testosterone of a man. but because she doesn't have a penis is still classified as a Woman.
I would say try another sport. (not weight lifting)
It seems extraordinary to me that people will overlook male competitors who have genetic advantages over their rivals but will concentrate on this. Has anyone who thinks CS shouldn't compete against women explained why Phelps should be allowed to compete against "normal" men ?
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Not got an opinion on this woman tbh, but just thought it was obvious shy the debate is being had0
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But Semenya can and has been beaten by other women ? Usuain Bolt hasn't lost a 100m/200m at the Olympics for over a decade, should he be banned too ?soapboxsam said:
SE9 are you serious ?se9addick said:
What if your son had to compete against Phelps ?soapboxsam said:What would you say if Sharp was your daughter ?
Not only have you to put up with the state drugged cheating
Russians. but someone, because Nature can do some strange things,
has the body and Testosterone of a man. but because she doesn't have a penis is still classified as a Woman.
I would say try another sport. (not weight lifting)
It seems extraordinary to me that people will overlook male competitors who have genetic advantages over the rivals but will concentrate on this. Has anyone who thinks CS shouldn't compete against women explained why Phelps should be allowed to compete against "normal" men ?
In every sport some men have a born advantage over other men.
Going back to Bjorn Borg he had such a slow heart beat that he had a big advantage over other Tennis players who had a "Normal" heart beat.
but he could be beaten. Not often at Wimbledon thou.
Phelps had this great lung Capacity but he could be beaten as Chad le clos
proved when he was only 20 in London 2012.
Caster Semenya can't be beaten by a female athlete, who has a average 2% testosterone against a "Female" Athlete with over 10% in a 800 metre race.
I'm not saying she should take the medication but when she did she came last in a race that i watched.
The athletes who feel they shouldn't race against her should stay on their blocks and force the power that be to make a decision.
Otherwise the 99% are suffering so the 1% can jog round and win races in a canter.1 -
Using your logic, all Paralympians whose disability is 'genetic' should be asked to compete in the Olympics and only those who have conditions as a result of an injury or accident can compete in the Paralympicsse9addick said:
But Semenya can and has been beaten by other women ? Usuain Bolt hasn't lost a 100m/200m at the Olympics for over a decade, should he be banned too ?soapboxsam said:
SE9 are you serious ?se9addick said:
What if your son had to compete against Phelps ?soapboxsam said:What would you say if Sharp was your daughter ?
Not only have you to put up with the state drugged cheating
Russians. but someone, because Nature can do some strange things,
has the body and Testosterone of a man. but because she doesn't have a penis is still classified as a Woman.
I would say try another sport. (not weight lifting)
It seems extraordinary to me that people will overlook male competitors who have genetic advantages over the rivals but will concentrate on this. Has anyone who thinks CS shouldn't compete against women explained why Phelps should be allowed to compete against "normal" men ?
In every sport some men have a born advantage over other men.
Going back to Bjorn Borg he had such a slow heart beat that he had a big advantage over other Tennis players who had a "Normal" heart beat.
but he could be beaten. Not often at Wimbledon thou.
Phelps had this great lung Capacity but he could be beaten as Chad le clos
proved when he was only 20 in London 2012.
Caster Semenya can't be beaten by a female athlete, who has a average 2% testosterone against a "Female" Athlete with over 10% in a 800 metre race.
I'm not saying she should take the medication but when she did she came last in a race that i watched.
The athletes who feel they shouldn't race against her should stay on their blocks and force the power that be to make a decision.
Otherwise the 99% are suffering so the 1% can jog round and win races in a canter.0 -
...the whole Pistorious argument again and I don't mean the one about him shooting his Mrs0
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Semenya was beaten when she was on medication or when she was a very young teenager.se9addick said:
But Semenya can and has been beaten by other women ? Usuain Bolt hasn't lost a 100m/200m at the Olympics for over a decade, should he be banned too ?soapboxsam said:
SE9 are you serious ?se9addick said:
What if your son had to compete against Phelps ?soapboxsam said:What would you say if Sharp was your daughter ?
Not only have you to put up with the state drugged cheating
Russians. but someone, because Nature can do some strange things,
has the body and Testosterone of a man. but because she doesn't have a penis is still classified as a Woman.
I would say try another sport. (not weight lifting)
It seems extraordinary to me that people will overlook male competitors who have genetic advantages over the rivals but will concentrate on this. Has anyone who thinks CS shouldn't compete against women explained why Phelps should be allowed to compete against "normal" men ?
In every sport some men have a born advantage over other men.
Going back to Bjorn Borg he had such a slow heart beat that he had a big advantage over other Tennis players who had a "Normal" heart beat.
but he could be beaten. Not often at Wimbledon thou.
Phelps had this great lung Capacity but he could be beaten as Chad le clos
proved when he was only 20 in London 2012.
Caster Semenya can't be beaten by a female athlete, who has a average 2% testosterone against a "Female" Athlete with over 10% in a 800 metre race.
I'm not saying she should take the medication but when she did she came last in a race that i watched.
The athletes who feel they shouldn't race against her should stay on their blocks and force the power that be to make a decision.
Otherwise the 99% are suffering so the 1% can jog round and win races in a canter.
Bolt is a man who somehow at 6ft 5in can out stride and out pace his opponents over 100 and 200 metres.
Usain Bolt Doesn't "cross the Gender divide"
Gold Medal For i-b-b-o-r-g for the above quote.
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London 2012 gold medallist Mariya Savinova has been stripped of her 800m title and banned until 2019.
The Russian has had all her results from July 2010 to August 2013 annulled after being found guilty of doping.
Savinova beat South Africa's Caster Semenya into second at the London Olympics and the 2011 Worlds in Daegu.0 -
Russian athletes in drugs cheating. I never saw that one coming.1
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Fake news.ShootersHillGuru said:Russian athletes in drugs cheating. I never saw that one coming.
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Caster Semenya has lost a landmark case against athletics' governing body meaning it will be allowed to restrict testosterone levels in female runners.
The Court of Arbitration for Sport (Cas) rejected the South African's challenge against the IAAF's new rules.
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Good.
She might still appeal to the Court of Human Rights.0 - Sponsored links:
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I don't see how this ban can stand up in a court of law.clive said:Caster Semenya has lost a landmark case against athletics' governing body meaning it will be allowed to restrict testosterone levels in female runners.
The Court of Arbitration for Sport (Cas) rejected the South African's challenge against the IAAF's new rules.
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This was inevitably going to be an issue when separating competitors on arbitrary biological differences. There was always going to be an edge case the found the rules wanting.
Female athletes basically compete in a pool where those who biology would give them an unfair advantage are removed. In that way removing Semenya from that pool is no different. That is presumably what CAS has found, that once you can use biology as a determinator for who and who can't compete, then it is hypocritical to then start claiming that one form of biological segregation is OK, whilst another very similar (and many would argue idenitical) form of segregation should somehow not be allowed.0 -
I don't believe it has to stand on its own so long as it is in line with the eligibility regulations that the IAAF brought in last year around competitive fairness in women's athletics.hoof_it_up_to_benty said:
I don't see how this ban can stand up in a court of law.clive said:Caster Semenya has lost a landmark case against athletics' governing body meaning it will be allowed to restrict testosterone levels in female runners.
The Court of Arbitration for Sport (Cas) rejected the South African's challenge against the IAAF's new rules.
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This is dreadful of course and hardly even to do with sport. This is, as usual, about the policing of women's bodies, with a side-order of racial discrimination1
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"You have a natural advantage, and we are ordering you to take drugs to make you unnaturally disadvantaged."
Switch around advantage/disadvantaged in the above sentence and what do you get...
I mean, this is doping. And if we get into the ethics of doping, then surely it's just as bad both ways round?
I feel really bad for Caster Semenya, Dutee Chand and the like - they just want to run as they are, which is natural.4 -
I thought you'd grown up ?Leuth said:This is dreadful of course and hardly even to do with sport. This is, as usual, about the policing of women's bodies, with a side-order of racial discrimination6 -
I agree that the Semenya case (DSD / intersex) should be dealt with differently than transitioned males to females competing in women's events.1
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I actually think that the decision is the correct decision. As she has unusually high T levels the playing field is not level unless they manage her levels.
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And every basketball player over six foot six should have shin reduction surgery. Jesus wept, listen to yourself!2
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Unfortunately, comparing apples with cat food doesn't help.
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