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Emiliano Sala plane crash
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I am very happy to admit if I have misinterpreted what @SuedeAdidas has said. But to me, it came across as if there's an implied criticism of Sala for doing something that @SuedeAdidas wouldn't have.Covered End said:
Err, he never said any of that. Weird.Chizz said:
Are you suggesting it was Sala's fault for not properly diagnosing the capabilities of the aircraft?SuedeAdidas said:I'm not being funny.....why would you get on that plane if you were a multi million pound footballer?
I am someway south of that demo-graph...and I wouldn't have got on it.
Have you ever refused to get on a plane, because you're not sure it's airworthy? Do you check over the pilots' credentials every time you get on a flight?
Imagine you had just signed a life-changing contract of work, and had to get to your new place of work, several hundred miles away, that evening. Would you *really* decide that you knew better than the pilot and had more knowledge than him about the plane, the weather and his capabilities, and turn down your only hope of getting where you needed to be that night?
So, perhaps it would have been better not to make that assumption. Saying that you wouldn't do something that someone else has done appears to me like a criticism of that person. So if it's not, I will accept it as a straight question. "Why would you get on that plane if you were a multi million pound footballer?"
And, if it is a straight question, here's my straight answers:
1. If the plane was booked, for the player, the pilot said it was safe, its hard to see why you wouldn't get on the plane
2. I don't know much about Sala's English language skills or the pilot's ability to speak Spanish. So if the player and pilot were not able to communicate about the flight's safety, the player might assume it's safe. Which, it appears, it was.
3. If the player doesn't have all the knowledge about the pilot's competence, licence details or the prevailing meteorological conditions, it's easy to see why he'd assume it was safe.
And, in the spirit of sharing questions, here's one I have: Why would you hire that plane and that pilot if you were a multi million pound football agent?0 -
The thing I am struggling with is why would you say you would make choice B and not assume that it comes across as a criticism of someone making choice A? That's all.Covered End said:
Nor did he say that.Chizz said:
Well that's great for you. And I am both surprised and impressed that you have an intimate and detailed knowledge of how to diagnose an aircraft's airworthiness by simply looking at it. In the dark.SuedeAdidas said:
I'm saying pretty much what I typed......Chizz said:
Are you suggesting it was Sala's fault for not properly diagnosing the capabilities of the aircraft?SuedeAdidas said:I'm not being funny.....why would you get on that plane if you were a multi million pound footballer?
I am someway south of that demo-graph...and I wouldn't have got on it.
Have you ever refused to get on a plane, because you're not sure it's airworthy? Do you check over the pilots' credentials every time you get on a flight?
Imagine you had just signed a life-changing contract of work, and had to get to your new place of work, several hundred miles away, that evening. Would you *really* decide that you knew better than the pilot and had more knowledge than him about the plane, the weather and his capabilities, and turn down your only hope of getting where you needed to be that night?
I would not have got on that elastic band shit heap when there were clearly better options available.
Stop making up complete nonsense.
He was suggesting that he wouldn't have boarded such a small & flimsy looking plane and I agree with him.
I've been on a couple of flights from City Airport, on something like 50 seater planes & they were rather bumpy & worrying.
I know I wouldn't be happy to fly the channel in a very small aircraft, even if you would.
If I was going to say Paris tomorrow I would choose a proper scheduled flight, rather than the plane offered to Sala, even if it was free.
NB I in no way blame Sala, it definitely wasn't his fault, but it was his choice, even if it was a difficult choice.
Incidentally, have you ever refused to get on a flight that's been booked and paid for ,because you have a feeling it's not safe? I haven't. And I don't know anyone who has.0 -
It was probably the cheapest the agent could get. Agents make money for themselves, simple as that.Chizz said:
I am very happy to admit if I have misinterpreted what @SuedeAdidas has said. But to me, it came across as if there's an implied criticism of Sala for doing something that @SuedeAdidas wouldn't have.Covered End said:
Err, he never said any of that. Weird.Chizz said:
Are you suggesting it was Sala's fault for not properly diagnosing the capabilities of the aircraft?SuedeAdidas said:I'm not being funny.....why would you get on that plane if you were a multi million pound footballer?
I am someway south of that demo-graph...and I wouldn't have got on it.
Have you ever refused to get on a plane, because you're not sure it's airworthy? Do you check over the pilots' credentials every time you get on a flight?
Imagine you had just signed a life-changing contract of work, and had to get to your new place of work, several hundred miles away, that evening. Would you *really* decide that you knew better than the pilot and had more knowledge than him about the plane, the weather and his capabilities, and turn down your only hope of getting where you needed to be that night?
So, perhaps it would have been better not to make that assumption. Saying that you wouldn't do something that someone else has done appears to me like a criticism of that person. So if it's not, I will accept it as a straight question. "Why would you get on that plane if you were a multi million pound footballer?"
And, if it is a straight question, here's my straight answers:
1. If the plane was booked, for the player, the pilot said it was safe, its hard to see why you wouldn't get on the plane
2. I don't know much about Sala's English language skills or the pilot's ability to speak Spanish. So if the player and pilot were not able to communicate about the flight's safety, the player might assume it's safe. Which, it appears, it was.
3. If the player doesn't have all the knowledge about the pilot's competence, licence details or the prevailing meteorological conditions, it's easy to see why he'd assume it was safe.
And, in the spirit of sharing questions, here's one I have: Why would you hire that plane and that pilot if you were a multi million pound football agent?3 -
Most people take calculated risks on a daily basis. For some reason I've developed some sort of late onset phobia of flying** and, for the short term future at least, I won't be getting into any type of aircraft to go anywhere because I've basically got an overwhelming feeling that it's gonna crash. This is some who used to go up in light air craft as a kid from Biggin Hill, with the Air Scouts and would've quite happily wing walked or done a parachute jump up until my early 30's and at one point was preparing to go through initial training with the Royal Marines, which would've obviously included a lot of flying and jumping out of planes, but in the last 10 years or so, I can't think of anything worse then waiting at an airport to get on a plane. I even get sweaty palms just picking people up and dropping an off at the airport these days..2
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....All the above is not to say that I think it serves victims of air accidents right for getting on a plane in the first place0
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I wouldn't parachute out of a plane, even for charity.Chizz said:
The thing I am struggling with is why would you say you would make choice B and not assume that it comes across as a criticism of someone making choice A? That's all.Covered End said:
Nor did he say that.Chizz said:
Well that's great for you. And I am both surprised and impressed that you have an intimate and detailed knowledge of how to diagnose an aircraft's airworthiness by simply looking at it. In the dark.SuedeAdidas said:
I'm saying pretty much what I typed......Chizz said:
Are you suggesting it was Sala's fault for not properly diagnosing the capabilities of the aircraft?SuedeAdidas said:I'm not being funny.....why would you get on that plane if you were a multi million pound footballer?
I am someway south of that demo-graph...and I wouldn't have got on it.
Have you ever refused to get on a plane, because you're not sure it's airworthy? Do you check over the pilots' credentials every time you get on a flight?
Imagine you had just signed a life-changing contract of work, and had to get to your new place of work, several hundred miles away, that evening. Would you *really* decide that you knew better than the pilot and had more knowledge than him about the plane, the weather and his capabilities, and turn down your only hope of getting where you needed to be that night?
I would not have got on that elastic band shit heap when there were clearly better options available.
Stop making up complete nonsense.
He was suggesting that he wouldn't have boarded such a small & flimsy looking plane and I agree with him.
I've been on a couple of flights from City Airport, on something like 50 seater planes & they were rather bumpy & worrying.
I know I wouldn't be happy to fly the channel in a very small aircraft, even if you would.
If I was going to say Paris tomorrow I would choose a proper scheduled flight, rather than the plane offered to Sala, even if it was free.
NB I in no way blame Sala, it definitely wasn't his fault, but it was his choice, even if it was a difficult choice.
Incidentally, have you ever refused to get on a flight that's been booked and paid for ,because you have a feeling it's not safe? I haven't. And I don't know anyone who has.
I wouldn't wish to fly on a small helicopter.
I wouldn't even do water sports on holiday skiing behind a boat or is it called a banana boat ride ?
Those would be my personal choices and the fact that someone would do all those things, possibly even the majority, it would be their choice.
Just because someone makes a choice, it doesn't mean you are criticising someone making a different choice.
Well not in my world anyway.
In my world people are free to choose without being criticised.3 -
Sure mate, I wasn't digging you out. I wouldn't get on such a plane either. But what i've learnt since is that a small private plane which they could have hired (like the one he came out on apparently) would probably look equally dodgy to us if we are the type that don;t fancy small planes, but to the pros it would be perfectly safe - if flown by the right pilots too. And until I started reading that forum thread I wouldn't have a clue what "the right pilot " means either.SuedeAdidas said:
Once again.....my comments have nothing to do with my now alleged understanding of aircraft top trump airworthiness.PragueAddick said:Again (re @SuedeAdidas remarks) the pilots make the point that Joe Public has no way of assessing what is a safe or not safe small plane. As I understand it, that plane would have been perfectly safe if the flight had been during the day and the weather forecast different, and crucially a suitably qualified pilot at the controls and a second pilot on the plane.
Personally I am not keen on small planes. I remember having to take one back from Wolfsburg to Prague and it stopped off in Kassel in pretty heavy snow. It seemed to me to be flying sideways as it came in to land. But in that case the pilots would say "two engines, two pilots, regular accredited commercial airline, sit back and trust the pros to get you home"
I am am saying that I have a perceived understanding of aircraft top trump travel comfort.
On this basis I would not have got on the plane.
This is is purely a personal statement....I have no reason to blame Sala, Cardiff or Mackay.1 -
Cardiff refuse to pay for Sala.
Looks like it will be going to court.
How very sad.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/sport/premier-league/exclusive-cardiff-city-plan-to-tell-fifa-deal-struck-to-buy-emiliano-sala-became-null-and-void-after-he-died/ar-BBVawF2?li=BBoPWjP
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i_b_b_o_r_g said:Most people take calculated risks on a daily basis. For some reason I've developed some sort of late onset phobia of flying** and, for the short term future at least, I won't be getting into any type of aircraft to go anywhere because I've basically got an overwhelming feeling that it's gonna crash. This is some who used to go up in light air craft as a kid from Biggin Hill, with the Air Scouts and would've quite happily wing walked or done a parachute jump up until my early 30's and at one point was preparing to go through initial training with the Royal Marines, which would've obviously included a lot of flying and jumping out of planes, but in the last 10 years or so, I can't think of anything worse then waiting at an airport to get on a plane. I even get sweaty palms just picking people up and dropping an off at the airport these days..I do my best to fly airlines and planes with a long history of safe performance. Southwest Airlines death/flight rate is 1/50th American and United for several reasons, which is why I take them as often as possible.I will never get on a small private plane or helicopter because the crash rates are multiples above commercial air travel. I try to take planes that have low crash rates too.Of course, looking in the rear view mirror does not work forever. Southwest finally had one person die on a plane last year. And the plane I most trusted... the 737, is not looking so great right now. I would not fly on a 737-Max right now if you let my fly for free.0
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So part of Cardiff’s argument is that a contract they gave Sala, who signed it, was rejected by the PL as it contravened their rules. They would have known that and yet they now use that to renege on the deal. Hope they get relegated, I really do.Covered End said:Cardiff refuse to pay for Sala.
Looks like it will be going to court.
How very sad.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/sport/premier-league/exclusive-cardiff-city-plan-to-tell-fifa-deal-struck-to-buy-emiliano-sala-became-null-and-void-after-he-died/ar-BBVawF2?li=BBoPWjP4 - Sponsored links:
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Time for the football world to drag itself into the 21st century & do things by the book. No backhanders or using middle men.4
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What an awful turn of events from a horrible situation. Classless1
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This went from the darkest moment in Cardiffs history to a legal squabble rather quickly.0
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LargeAddick said:
So part of Cardiff’s argument is that a contract they gave Sala, who signed it, was rejected by the PL as it contravened their rules. They would have known that and yet they now use that to renege on the deal. Hope they get relegated, I really do.Covered End said:Cardiff refuse to pay for Sala.
Looks like it will be going to court.
How very sad.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/sport/premier-league/exclusive-cardiff-city-plan-to-tell-fifa-deal-struck-to-buy-emiliano-sala-became-null-and-void-after-he-died/ar-BBVawF2?li=BBoPWjPLegally, that sounds like a winning argument. When he was on the plane he did not belong legally to Cardiff. Ouch. Morality does not count for much in legal fights.
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What a horrible scenario this has turned into.0
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But neither did he belong to Nantes. They had completed all their paperwork and from there it was between Cardiff and the FA.NapaAddick said:LargeAddick said:
So part of Cardiff’s argument is that a contract they gave Sala, who signed it, was rejected by the PL as it contravened their rules. They would have known that and yet they now use that to renege on the deal. Hope they get relegated, I really do.Covered End said:Cardiff refuse to pay for Sala.
Looks like it will be going to court.
How very sad.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/sport/premier-league/exclusive-cardiff-city-plan-to-tell-fifa-deal-struck-to-buy-emiliano-sala-became-null-and-void-after-he-died/ar-BBVawF2?li=BBoPWjPLegally, that sounds like a winning argument. When he was on the plane he did not belong legally to Cardiff. Ouch. Morality does not count for much in legal fights.
Are Cardiff trying to get the FA to pay the transfer fee?1 -
Wow! I am completely shocked that Cardiff are pulling this trick!
Who could possibly have foreseen this happening?4 -
Maybe Roland inspired them to ask for League help. 😂Callumcafc said:
But neither did he belong to Nantes. They had completed all their paperwork and from there it was between Cardiff and the FA.NapaAddick said:LargeAddick said:
So part of Cardiff’s argument is that a contract they gave Sala, who signed it, was rejected by the PL as it contravened their rules. They would have known that and yet they now use that to renege on the deal. Hope they get relegated, I really do.Covered End said:Cardiff refuse to pay for Sala.
Looks like it will be going to court.
How very sad.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/sport/premier-league/exclusive-cardiff-city-plan-to-tell-fifa-deal-struck-to-buy-emiliano-sala-became-null-and-void-after-he-died/ar-BBVawF2?li=BBoPWjPLegally, that sounds like a winning argument. When he was on the plane he did not belong legally to Cardiff. Ouch. Morality does not count for much in legal fights.
Are Cardiff trying to get the FA to pay the transfer fee?3 -
I suspect when a lot of money is involved you feel pressured to do things you might otherwise not. I enjoy flying, but I wouldn't fancy flying over a stretch of water in a one engined plane in bad weather. But in Sala's position, I probably would have!0
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It can now be disclosed it was rejected because the club had front-loaded his signing-on fee in contravention of rules stipulating such money must be paid in equal instalments over the duration of a player’s contract.
And what, pray, was the role of the agent in drafting this? Hmmm? A British agent, who will - or should - know the FAPL and FA rules by heart, and stands to trouser huge commission. And who arranged the flight. He's not in court, then? What a surprise. Of course he has two sons on Cardiff's books.
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Legally, that sounds like a pathetic attempt to get out of meeting obligations that were freely entered into.NapaAddick said:LargeAddick said:
So part of Cardiff’s argument is that a contract they gave Sala, who signed it, was rejected by the PL as it contravened their rules. They would have known that and yet they now use that to renege on the deal. Hope they get relegated, I really do.Covered End said:Cardiff refuse to pay for Sala.
Looks like it will be going to court.
How very sad.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/sport/premier-league/exclusive-cardiff-city-plan-to-tell-fifa-deal-struck-to-buy-emiliano-sala-became-null-and-void-after-he-died/ar-BBVawF2?li=BBoPWjPLegally, that sounds like a winning argument. When he was on the plane he did not belong legally to Cardiff. Ouch. Morality does not count for much in legal fights.
If the Premier League refused to sanction the contract Cardiff had with Sala, that's for Cardiff to sort out, not Nantes.
Nantes sold them the player. They then had to have him registered with the PL. The fact they hadn't done so is not the fault of Nantes - who seem to have gone to all reasonable lengths to ensure their obligations to Cardiff were, or were being, met.
If Cardiff rely on their own inability to draw up a contract within PL rules as a defence, they deserve to lose.
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There was absolutely no need to put him on that plane. A comfortable biz class flight on a normal commercial service via Amsterdam was available, and if that really didn't do the trick time-wise, the same plane that got him out there, would have got him back again. But for reasons that are not yet being properly interrogated, he was put on that plane, with that pilot.MuttleyCAFC said:I suspect when a lot of money is involved you feel pressured to do things you might otherwise not. I enjoy flying, but I wouldn't fancy flying over a stretch of water in a one engined plane in bad weather. But in Sala's position, I probably would have!0 -
One thing I did learn today, is that the pilot is just missing, presumed dead.0
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Unless they find a body that’s always the case0
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Agreed. What I am saying that when presented with something that looked a little dodgy, Sala did what most of us would do in the circumstances. Somebody is culpable by the sound of it. This clearly wasn't a kosher private flight.PragueAddick said:
There was absolutely no need to put him on that plane. A comfortable biz class flight on a normal commercial service via Amsterdam was available, and if that really didn't do the trick time-wise, the same plane that got him out there, would have got him back again. But for reasons that are not yet being properly interrogated, he was put on that plane, with that pilot.MuttleyCAFC said:I suspect when a lot of money is involved you feel pressured to do things you might otherwise not. I enjoy flying, but I wouldn't fancy flying over a stretch of water in a one engined plane in bad weather. But in Sala's position, I probably would have!0 -
#againstmodernfootball0
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Also says thst the flight was due to leave in the morning but Sala spent all day saying goodbye to his (ex) teammates. Nothing wrong with that......apart from it meant they didn't leave until 7pm......and that the pilot should be in charge with times etc.
Feel the pilot will get a hard time over all this when in reality it looks like he may have been "pressured" into doing something he knew he shouldn't. I wonder how Willie McKay can sleep at night.
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golfaddick said:Also says thst the flight was due to leave in the morning but Sala spent all day saying goodbye to his (ex) teammates. Nothing wrong with that......apart from it meant they didn't leave until 7pm......and that the pilot should be in charge with times etc.
Feel the pilot will get a hard time over all this when in reality it looks like he may have been "pressured" into doing something he knew he shouldn't. I wonder how Willie McKay can sleep at night.
Hell sleep in a nice superking bed in his very comfortable house I’d imagine.0 -
Also, the pilot and plane were hired by Sala's agent. That will muddy the waters. If Cardiff or Nantes had directly hired the plane, that could have gone a long way to determining who owed who, what. Now it will have to be determined who the agent was acting FOR, Nantes or Cardiff. Given it was heading TO Cardiff....Addickted said:
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