I watch these things out of curiosity but I’ve long accepted that I’m so cautious and cynical of executive presented speak that i don’t believe a single thing that’s said.
Methven’s slide was to show transparency but also to show the things under his (non-football) remit are going in the right direction. Everything is up, we’re doing great is the message.
But the devil is always in the detail that’s not shared, why was 2 seasons ago used as the comparator? Why were the category breakdowns different to those in the published accounts so they couldn’t be fact checked? With nearly half a season and potential playoffs ahead, what factors were built into the forcasted figures for this season that showed everything being up?
Methven is an assertive and convincing orator, on the face of it you more often than not nod along in agreement with pretty much everything he says as he speaks persuasively and based on what he asserts as ‘truth’. You just have to take stock at times and question the fullness of the truth.
For example, he made a big thing (mentioned at least twice) that ‘attendances were strongly up’. But everyone that has been every game this season knows that in no way are attendances strongly up, there was one freak game v Wrexham that distorted the average.
These things shouldn’t be treated too seriously. It’s good that the club are willing to do them as it does provide an element of public accountability but we’ll know when the club has finally turned the corner on the pitch when it stops being such a cautiously managed message exercise.
Another factor is away support - we’ve already played the clubs likely to attend in large numbers. Attendance figures for home support are pretty meaningless as we can all see they are off by thousands and the element of that which is unused comps can’t be determined externally.
I tuned in for 2 mins at one point and CM was saying away support is also down for midweek games at The Valley due to the Sky deal. Obviously that isn't substantial £ for us but I did think it was interesting
Due to Sky or that we are only a mid table L3 team?
It's because we are mid-table league1 and people find us boring.
200 or so at Bolton away on a Tuesday, if it was Liverpool or Man City in a cup game, we sell out our allocation, regardless of it being on telly.
Same applies to teams visting the Valley, if you have the choice between TV or the 5 hour plus round trip, you'd opt for the telly most times, and I don't blame people.
The cure for that, is being a good football team. That's the harsh truth.
I'm not sure fans care who the opposition is much do they? I know you will go to away games regardless and I will go to any that I can, doesn't bother me if the opposition play good football or not. We'll always take more to Man Utd because it's unusual but we wouldn't take more to Rotherham if they played football like 2010 Barcelona
I guess I’m commenting as much that L3 has a ceiling given the general quality of football.
Don’t forget as a ‘London’ team we maybe get some extra away visitors because they might make a trip of it.
Sky must hit as well naturally but last year it could be streamed via clubs own subscription stuff as a non 3pm kick off.
I definitely think this is a net positive for Saturday games but less so on a Tuesday night
Sorry, but a waste of time, people shouldn't even bother tuning in.
Ultimately the two most important things (promotion and ground ownership) are solved by money, and it appears we have owners that aren't willing to break the bank to get it done.
We won't improve our fan base, as there's too many London clubs better than us, we are currently the 3rd worst professional London football club out of 13 (I am not including the non league riff raff). Until that changes, we won't attract new fans (on a large scale) unless they are generational fans.
I'd actually be happy for them to say at this point "we don't have the money to bring you back to the Premier league, we are aiming to keep you afloat until we can make you a more ambitious project to purchase for someone else and make some potential profit on you". Deadly serious as well. I don't believe for a second these owners care further than viewing us as a 3-5 year flip project.
You cannot and I can't emphasise this enough, cannot sustain in this league for a club of our size in London. We are being swallowed every year by more ambitious clubs around us. Brentford as an example are a much bigger club than us now. Forget history, no one cares that we had a good few years in the prem. They dwarf us in following and riches now, that would have been inconceivable only over a decade or so ago. How bad can it get in another decade?
I think people genuinely underestimate how broken we are at times based on youtube chats etc.
All these questions about signs, turnstiles and food options do my nut in. I want to watch Charlton be a team that plays at the top level or at least the second level. Not mixing it up with bloody Shrewsbury, Northampton etc every year. (Sorry any Salops and Cobblers who may be floating about.)
It's imperative we get out of this league and become a good football side again, and it feels like cold water is being thrown on that to me. It's all about being 'sensible' and you just can't be in the modern game, you'll be left behind.
Spot on. Many of the questions are always so idiotic it beggars belief.
Supporters have the opportunity to ask anything about the future of the club’s ambitions and very existence and we get questions about signs and food etc etc.
‘have any conversations been held with RD since your last update AND by when do you expect to either have progressed a sale or renegotiated the lease?’
Yes, we are building a strong relationship with the owner of the ground but by their very nature such talks are commercially sensitive so we can't say too much.. We and the American owners understand that longer tenure is important but there are ten years left so we are not concerned at this point.
Is the pitch better or worse than the contractors indicated it would be AND are you spending more money on it this summer?
We are disappointed with the pitch and have been speaking to the contractors about it. New pitches don't always look their best after one year. This summer we played a pre-season friendly very soon after it was laid and we've then had unusually wet and cold weather. It looks worse than it plays but work will be done in the summer.
What’s happening with the long term search for a new club secretary?
Chris Parkes, who is very experienced and a real Charlton man, is helping us. A Club Secretary is a vital role and we want to make sure that we get the right person. Sometimes, the best people are already employed so there are long periods of notice to work. Jim Rodwell and Andy Scott are both based at the training ground so keep a close eye on things.
Anyway, great result at Bolton, any questions for Nathan?
Can someone point me to a summary of last nights events please (if ones already been done)?
I've started to wade through 600-odd posts but the bickering was becoming a bit much (I know, it's CL - but I don't have the time today!) so a nice succinct summary would be splendid!
I watch these things out of curiosity but I’ve long accepted that I’m so cautious and cynical of executive presented speak that i don’t believe a single thing that’s said.
Methven’s slide was to show transparency but also to show the things under his (non-football) remit are going in the right direction. Everything is up, we’re doing great is the message.
But the devil is always in the detail that’s not shared, why was 2 seasons ago used as the comparator? Why were the category breakdowns different to those in the published accounts so they couldn’t be fact checked? With nearly half a season and potential playoffs ahead, what factors were built into the forcasted figures for this season that showed everything being up?
Methven is an assertive and convincing orator, on the face of it you more often than not nod along in agreement with pretty much everything he says as he speaks persuasively and based on what he asserts as ‘truth’. You just have to take stock at times and question the fullness of the truth.
For example, he made a big thing (mentioned at least twice) that ‘attendances were strongly up’. But everyone that has been every game this season knows that in no way are attendances strongly up, there was one freak game v Wrexham that distorted the average.
These things shouldn’t be treated too seriously. It’s good that the club are willing to do them as it does provide an element of public accountability but we’ll know when the club has finally turned the corner on the pitch when it stops being such a cautiously managed message exercise.
Another factor is away support - we’ve already played the clubs likely to attend in large numbers. Attendance figures for home support are pretty meaningless as we can all see they are off by thousands and the element of that which is unused comps can’t be determined externally.
I tuned in for 2 mins at one point and CM was saying away support is also down for midweek games at The Valley due to the Sky deal. Obviously that isn't substantial £ for us but I did think it was interesting
Due to Sky or that we are only a mid table L3 team?
The point he specifically made was that fans of teams who had to travel more than about 90 mins were coming less, that suggests to me it's Sky rather than the fact they're playing against Charlton
I’m sure that makes a difference - it influences my choices - but not just midweeks, because of VPN. A few hundred away fans is about £5k in ticket revenue though. It’s not a game changer.
I watch these things out of curiosity but I’ve long accepted that I’m so cautious and cynical of executive presented speak that i don’t believe a single thing that’s said.
Methven’s slide was to show transparency but also to show the things under his (non-football) remit are going in the right direction. Everything is up, we’re doing great is the message.
But the devil is always in the detail that’s not shared, why was 2 seasons ago used as the comparator? Why were the category breakdowns different to those in the published accounts so they couldn’t be fact checked? With nearly half a season and potential playoffs ahead, what factors were built into the forcasted figures for this season that showed everything being up?
Methven is an assertive and convincing orator, on the face of it you more often than not nod along in agreement with pretty much everything he says as he speaks persuasively and based on what he asserts as ‘truth’. You just have to take stock at times and question the fullness of the truth.
For example, he made a big thing (mentioned at least twice) that ‘attendances were strongly up’. But everyone that has been every game this season knows that in no way are attendances strongly up, there was one freak game v Wrexham that distorted the average.
These things shouldn’t be treated too seriously. It’s good that the club are willing to do them as it does provide an element of public accountability but we’ll know when the club has finally turned the corner on the pitch when it stops being such a cautiously managed message exercise.
Another factor is away support - we’ve already played the clubs likely to attend in large numbers. Attendance figures for home support are pretty meaningless as we can all see they are off by thousands and the element of that which is unused comps can’t be determined externally.
I tuned in for 2 mins at one point and CM was saying away support is also down for midweek games at The Valley due to the Sky deal. Obviously that isn't substantial £ for us but I did think it was interesting
Due to Sky or that we are only a mid table L3 team?
The point he specifically made was that fans of teams who had to travel more than about 90 mins were coming less, that suggests to me it's Sky rather than the fact they're playing against Charlton
I’m sure that makes a difference - it influences my choices - but not just midweeks, because of VPN. A few hundred away fans is about £5k in ticket revenue though. It’s not a game changer.
Some good ie the top line finances although we seemed to have skipped a year.
Net transfer spend of £800k to £1m
CM sometimes lets slip more than he intends.
IE bringing catering in house, change in shirt sponsors. Shame those issues weren't probed more but you can't blame in-house interviewers for not going full Jeremy Paxman
Think he confirmed what I said a few weeks back eg the big money guys are happy to put in what they said they would (£10m pa) but they aren't going to splash the cash over and above that.
CM was right say we can't talk about success until we get promoted. Were not on track for that but at least he acknowledged that.
Carter isn't a natural on TV and I keep thinking he's @AFKABartram but he is on top of his brief and appears to be constantly talking to managers.
On to the negative. The questioning was largely vague and soft, and especially from the reps. The fans questions from whattsapp were better and more to the point.
And Ali Maxwell: why? Must be a dozen CAFC fans who could do that.
Technically it was poor, sound was uneven and someone tell CM to look into the camers
I actually think all the fan engagement stuff is good but it's not very sexy for most fans and I have my own issues right now about how much it is real when push comes to shove.
Pleased for Jon and Lewis. I still thing the advisory board set up is totally wrong but that's for another debate.
I'm a big critic of CAST so this will be dismissed by some as having an axe to grind but tonight Heather didn't present CAST as an organisation likely to ask tough or probing questions or that would hold the board to account.
Overall, it was good that it happened but I think the club over managed it due to a lack of confidence/fear of difficult questions when in reality they would have been better to just take whatever came. Nothing should really come as a surprise to them and none of the four are that inarticulate or unable to think on their feet.
So, in a nutshell......
The owners are happy to keep ploughing in £10m a year just to stay in this division, with every few seasons a player sale might be enough to buy a couple more mediocre players that will help us finish 10th. Because they have no ambition to ever spend any money that might get us out of this poxy league.
RIght-o.
Not what I said.
I believe CM sold them the idea that he could reduce costs and increase income (see his ££ slide) and this, plus boosting the squad with academy talent which is our big USP, would produce the additional budget to produce a promotion winning team.
Not happened IMHO because of our poor recruitment (even Rodwell said how poorly we'd used the loan market) and the churn of managers.
I didn’t listen to it, but my reading of the comments made by the SMT is very simple, the plan is. That the owners agreed to give Charlton £10 million a year (losses where around £9 million per year when they took over) to fund the losses which they appear to be doing and are willing to do, therefore at present they are keeping to there part of the plan. This meant we had a million to invest in players and infrastructure/ infrastructure.
The problem is that the SMT stated they could reduce the losses to a more sustainable £3 million or less per year which meant there would be around £7 million per year for investment in players and infrastructure, this they have failed to do successfully as from the figures shown by the SMT would appear that the reduction was being generous £1/2 million or less, so the losses reduced from around £9 million to £8.5 millions. Which means now we have £1.5 millions to invest in infrastructure/ players.
So as I see it the owners are doing their bit, but the SMT have totally failed, I know this is very simplistic but, the owners must be looking at the figures and surly thinking, the SMT are failing and need replacing. They will not be thinking about spending more money than they agreed to (for ground purchase, but if pushed them may consider extending lease), infrastructure and new players, let’s be honest would you?
So my expectations is that there will be a new SMT in place by this time next year, they will be charged to reduce costs hopefully to a more realistic figure (my guess £5 million or less) therefore Charlton would have around £5 million a year for infrastructure and players. The big worry is how do you reduce the losses to £5 million?
Probably a load of rubbish, but that’s my take from what I read on here.
Yes, firstly, I've no idea where the £3m figure came from....... and that would have made a good question perhaps? And then grasping at a straw...... would it be feasible to develop the academy to contributing a further £7m net per annum from player sales......... mens and women's..... by somehow holding on to our young talent for longer.... for silly money...... rather than taking the first offer that came along.....?
He actually said £1m-£2m and that anyone competent could do that and then offset it with player trading - the article does refer to promotion although not in his quote. It’s unlikely you could get to £1m-£2m and stay in the Championship year on year. RD tried that. It basically means running a L1 playing budget and filling the operating loss with the extra central income.
i have a feeling CM said something about getting operating losses down to £6m this season previously, but I haven’t found it. Anyone else remember that?
Thank you! I knew he said, had read he'd said it and we haven't achieved it!
And so.... "You will do that if you have any kind of competence at all"
So, proving my point CM and the SMT HAVE NO KIND OF COMPETENCE AT ALL
Case closed. THAT particular morsel is the line spun to the financiers, I am almost certain of it.....
If we don't buy two or three immediate starters we won't get promoted, Small will leave, Leaburn will be sold and there's no guarantee we'll get out of the division next year.
THE SMT are NOT fit for purpose.
Waffle and conjecture. They give me no confidence. Fair play to CM to say until we get out of this division he doesn't want to talk about success.
He's right.
Sadly I dint think he'll be here IF we ever do get out of this division again... upwards!
What did you expect him to do in that moment? Interrupt to agree? Nothing he said elsewhere in the interview contradicted what Rodwell said.
If the right player is available at the right price, they will bring them in. But they won’t do deals for the wrong players at bad prices just to placate the fans.
His silence said it all
The comment if the right player at the right price is not really an actual defined idea.... nobody knows if they're the right price
I simply don't believe this collective "management" are good enough to get us promoted.
4th highest wage bill. Arguably the richest ownership in the division yet constantly being outperformed by smaller, better run, better managed clubs.
You look for the positives i look at the realities. If this management don't buy two or three players this transfer window it is only going to get harder to get promoted under their leadership.
All I hear are excuses. Charlie said it isn't that difficult to turn fortunes around. He continues to disprove that theory.
We can agree to disagree. We have for years. I still remain unbeaten in our differences over each transfer window. I can't wait to lose one.
Yep.....I'm with you on your last point.
It would be nice for once to be able to say in August......" this squad looks pretty decent, I reckon we could be in with a shout of the play offs".
I watch these things out of curiosity but I’ve long accepted that I’m so cautious and cynical of executive presented speak that i don’t believe a single thing that’s said.
Methven’s slide was to show transparency but also to show the things under his (non-football) remit are going in the right direction. Everything is up, we’re doing great is the message.
But the devil is always in the detail that’s not shared, why was 2 seasons ago used as the comparator? Why were the category breakdowns different to those in the published accounts so they couldn’t be fact checked? With nearly half a season and potential playoffs ahead, what factors were built into the forcasted figures for this season that showed everything being up?
Methven is an assertive and convincing orator, on the face of it you more often than not nod along in agreement with pretty much everything he says as he speaks persuasively and based on what he asserts as ‘truth’. You just have to take stock at times and question the fullness of the truth.
For example, he made a big thing (mentioned at least twice) that ‘attendances were strongly up’. But everyone that has been every game this season knows that in no way are attendances strongly up, there was one freak game v Wrexham that distorted the average.
These things shouldn’t be treated too seriously. It’s good that the club are willing to do them as it does provide an element of public accountability but we’ll know when the club has finally turned the corner on the pitch when it stops being such a cautiously managed message exercise.
Another factor is away support - we’ve already played the clubs likely to attend in large numbers. Attendance figures for home support are pretty meaningless as we can all see they are off by thousands and the element of that which is unused comps can’t be determined externally.
I tuned in for 2 mins at one point and CM was saying away support is also down for midweek games at The Valley due to the Sky deal. Obviously that isn't substantial £ for us but I did think it was interesting
Due to Sky or that we are only a mid table L3 team?
It's because we are mid-table league1 and people find us boring.
200 or so at Bolton away on a Tuesday, if it was Liverpool or Man City in a cup game, we sell out our allocation, regardless of it being on telly.
Same applies to teams visting the Valley, if you have the choice between TV or the 5 hour plus round trip, you'd opt for the telly most times, and I don't blame people.
The cure for that, is being a good football team. That's the harsh truth.
I'm not sure fans care who the opposition is much do they? I know you will go to away games regardless and I will go to any that I can, doesn't bother me if the opposition play good football or not. We'll always take more to Man Utd because it's unusual but we wouldn't take more to Rotherham if they played football like 2010 Barcelona
They do mate, as I'm not simply talking about die hard Charlton fans here, I'm talking about the potential new ones.
Just to give you a few examples off the top of my head, whenever I go to Shrewsbury, I have two mates who live there, one of them only goes cause he wants to help me with vlogging now, before I did he had 0 interest in going. The other has outright said he won't go cause we are shit. Now these aren't necessarily the fans we want, as they support another club for a start, but that would still be potential revenue for the club, and is interest towards our club. I also genuinely have loads of friends who feel the same way, they'd go, if it wasn't Charlton.
3 of my school mates would go to the odd Charlton game with me, all Arsenal fans. They were all going to games fairly often when we were back in the championship, as soon as we got relegated again, 0 interest. They have all said they would get Charlton season tickets IF we were a Premier League team through quality of football alone and ease of access.
I'd just like to highlight as well, of 5 of those people I've mentioned. Two are Somalian, one is Jamaican and the other Pakistani. All have been welcomed at the Valley and even said they didn't feel out of place here, excluding the Jamaican who won't go cause we are shit so has no idea what it's like at Charlton.
So when I see these campaigns about diversity, and inclusion, I question do they actually know what the likely reason is why there is a lack of diversity at our games? Cause from my experience and speaking to my fairly diverse friend group, it's because they have a lack of affinity to us as a club. People who don't have relatives as Charlton fans, most of the time, would opt for a more exciting team.
You've got a very diverse area, where some people (particularly young people) will potentially be the first generation of people in their families that were born here. Their relatives probably would have watched the likes of Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea etc from afar, with little to no interest in us. When they grow up and take an interest in football, why would they support Charlton? These are the type of topics we should be discussing. We already know we welcome diversity at Charlton, our players throughout our history have shown that.
I'd imagine most of our fans have been brain washed or had Charlton pushed upon us. I had to practically beg my relatives to go Charlton. Mission accomplished to some extent, but there's still a lack of interest at times. The only reason I support Charlton myself is because my first game was Charlton Arsenal and we beat them, had Arsenal won that day, I'd be an Arsenal fan. Unfortunately, that's how simple it can be growing up. I imagine a 10 year old me now rocking up to the Valley and seeing us lose 2-1 to Crawley, I'd have probably never have gone back.
The owners need to have a difficult conversation, and accept that in 20-30 years, we could be getting even lower attendances than now. We are a club massively on the decline and there's nothing exciting about us. Wrexham are more exciting to the general footballing world, and most people had only heard of them 5 years ago, that's the bitter truth.
I look around and I see an aging fan base (no disrespect to any older fans, I'm not ageist and I respect older fans) I see a lack of diversity and youth at away games, unless it's local, or they support Charlton through family.
The only remedy to all of this is solved by us being good at football. This will encourage younger fans to want to support us as they grow up and the multi national population in the South of London. If we carry on as is, our fan base will only decline, and we will be a less attractive proposition in the long run.
In the last 15 years, the majority has been spent in this league. It could well be another 10 for all we know. I genuinely worry about the damage that would do to this club. If that makes me look like a spoiled brat, or impatient, or ungrateful, so be it. I want to be proud to support Charlton again, and I want us to attract new fans. I want people who don't support Charlton through family reasons alone to want to support us. It all falls back to money and ambition.
Didn't watch last night as I find these things pretty much a waste of time as the management bs we all know and love flows superbly.
But if I had, I would have left this one point for the SMT to think about.
Leave Bromley out of the equation, if AFC Wimbledon go up this year and carry on their good form, Leyton Orient carry on the incredible run they are on at the moment and we don't go up, it's not inconceivable we could be the lowest ranked club in London next season.
Think about that. It's incredible. Teams like Orient and Brentford that we always considered no threat lauding it above us whilst the likes of Palace, Fulham, Millwall and QPR that I always thought we were on a par with, if not bigger than in some circumstances, are now firmly established in leagues above us. Indeed, the first two - much as I hate to admit it - miles in front of us atm.
The further we fall, the more our support will crumble as young supporters coming through won't want to be associated with us. Time is not on our side and the SMT really should recognise this.
Bloody hell,never thought of that…that is one scary scenario right there…😳
I'm not quoting all of you as it's too much clutter, but I deliberately mentioned Bournemouth, Brighton and Brentford for a reason, that they're Premier League teams. If they hadn't done what what they did (throw a fuck load of cash at it) they'd arguably be back down here, or, a gatekeeper championship side like Preston or Bristol City at best.
At some point, if you don't spend millions, you end up back here. That's what happened to us and that's what will happen to all of them.
You will need to spend millions eventually and show some ambition. Of all the teams you've mentioned, one has already come back down in Wycombe, soon to be another in Plymouth, the others will probably as well if they don't spend. Then you have the likes of Rotherham, Wigan, Burton, Peterborough and Christ knows how many other examples of getting promoted 'sensibly' and coming right back down.
It is all about money, or getting very, very lucky. Always has been, always will be. Convince yourselves otherwise till your hearts content, makes no difference to me.
So just ignore Luton then? The team we are clearly basing ourselves on. Also Brentford in terms of net spend aren’t really on that level either.
To get to the premier league and stay there you obviously need huge investment. But we are talking about trying to get to the championship, at which point we are much more likely to attract the kind of ownership or additional investment that you want. We spend more in league 1 than all those sensible teams did, if they can get promoted on their budgets then so can we. And we spend more than them so have more chance at staying up and continuing to progress if we do things right, and I think we’ve got the right manager to do that
In league 1 when we don’t own our assets, no one is going to pour that kind of money into us. You can keep saying we need it but it’s never going to happen, so how about try and get behind what is actually realistic instead of this pipe dream that we are going to spend millions on players and buy promotion
Wigan is also the exact example of not being sensible. They spent way too much money on wages to get out of league 1, and it ended up putting them in serious difficulty financially. Much rather be sensible than at higher risk of an owner pulling the plug after spending too much
@Braziliance I won’t quote so not to clog up the thread but I think our wires are crossed. Of course our fans/people with tenuous links care how we play, I’m saying a Shrewsbury fan isn’t more or less likely to sit in the Jimmy Seed based on how Charlton play.
But I fully agree about the aging fan base. I think CM has seen that but his methods for fixing it are massively flawed
Sorry, but a waste of time, people shouldn't even bother tuning in.
Ultimately the two most important things (promotion and ground ownership) are solved by money, and it appears we have owners that aren't willing to break the bank to get it done.
We won't improve our fan base, as there's too many London clubs better than us, we are currently the 3rd worst professional London football club out of 13 (I am not including the non league riff raff). Until that changes, we won't attract new fans unless they are generational fans.
I'd actually be happy for them to say at this point "we don't have the money to bring you back to the Premier league, we are aiming to keep you afloat until we can make you a more ambitious project to purchase for someone else and make some potential profit on you". Deadly serious as well. I don't believe for a second these owners care further than viewing us as a 3-5 year flip project.
You cannot and I can't emphasise this enough, cannot sustain in this league for a club of our size in London. We are being swallowed every year by more ambitious clubs around us. Brentford as an example are a much bigger club than us now. Forget history, no one cares that we had a good few years in the prem. They dwarf us in following and riches now, that would have been inconceivable only over a decade or so ago. How bad can it get in another decade?
I think people genuinely underestimate how broken we are at times based on youtube chats etc.
All these questions about signs, turnstiles and food options do my nut in. I want to watch Charlton be a team that plays at the top level or at least the second level. Not mixing it up with bloody Shrewsbury, Northampton etc every year. (Sorry any Salops and Cobblers who may be floating about.)
It's imperative we get out of this league and become a good football side again, and it feels like cold water is being thrown on that to me. It's all about being 'sensible' and you just can't be in the modern game, you'll be left behind.
There are plenty of examples of teams that are sensible and well-ran climbing the leagues, Brentford just from your post are one of them. There are also lots of examples of teams not being sensible and putting themselves in difficulty. I’d rather try and be a sensible well run club (not saying we are succeeding at this at all), you are much more likely to sustain success by doing this
We can’t just demand ownerships to chuck huge money at this, it just isn’t going to happen. Even with the current levels of spending which you deem not near enough, we are losing £9m a year. This ownership, nor any other potential ownership, isnt going to want to lose significantly more than that into a club that doesn’t even own its assets. You need to be more realistic, we’ve been an absolute shitshow on and off the pitch for a decade, that isn’t going to be turned around overnight, and the state the club and assets are in mean that you aren’t going to get a magic billionaire come in and throw money at it till it succeeds
You will not be able to give me one example of a team that has achieved promotions without spending a fuck ton of money, or, been lucky with academy products. Brentford chucked millions at their team. They of course sold a lot of players for big fees to keep this going, but they were always spending millions on players, that's how it started. Big fees to keep up with the modern game. Brighton who are viewed as a sensible club were the same, spent fortunes to get to the Premier league, so did Bournemouth. None of these became the club's they are now by being sensible.
It's the complete opposite to what you are saying, we won't sustain like this. This, and rolling the dice and it rolling low will lead to the same outcomes. They both have their own risks.
Losing 9 million a year, exactly! So our owners/represtatives as an example, have literally said, they aren't willing to pay the 40-50 million or whatever it is that Roland is asking for, as its too much. So how long are they willing to be a league1 club for before that's too much money pissed away?
It can literally be turned around in one season with money. If money couldn't turn things around, Birmingham wouldn't be top, Wycombe wouldn't be second and Cambridge wouldn't be bottom. That's all football is, money, that's the harsh reality.
I'm not demanding anything, nor will me doing so make a difference, I am posting what the situation is on a Charlton message board.
If we don't spend a fuck load of money to revive this club, we will die a slow painful death, unless we get extremely lucky, and even then, it would only get us so far. To survive in this climate, you need owners who are willing to spend the cash, all the rest is just noise.
There is no such thing as a 5 year plan in this league, by the time you're two years in, all your players and potentially manager will be hoovered up. Good players don't want to spend 5 years in this shit league, they might be more inclined in the championship where they're potentially one season away from the promised land.
Plymouth, Pompey and Oxford are three examples of clubs that got promoted without spending loads of money and “getting lucky with academy grads”
Those clubs utilised the free agent and loan market brilliantly. They also all had joined up thinking between management, director of football and executives. Something we have lacked.
Until Methven, Rodwell and Scott are gone, we won’t make the progress that we all dream of. I wonder if Nathan Jones thinks the same; I want us to stick with him.
Some good ie the top line finances although we seemed to have skipped a year.
Net transfer spend of £800k to £1m
CM sometimes lets slip more than he intends.
IE bringing catering in house, change in shirt sponsors. Shame those issues weren't probed more but you can't blame in-house interviewers for not going full Jeremy Paxman
Think he confirmed what I said a few weeks back eg the big money guys are happy to put in what they said they would (£10m pa) but they aren't going to splash the cash over and above that.
CM was right say we can't talk about success until we get promoted. Were not on track for that but at least he acknowledged that.
Carter isn't a natural on TV and I keep thinking he's @AFKABartram but he is on top of his brief and appears to be constantly talking to managers.
On to the negative. The questioning was largely vague and soft, and especially from the reps. The fans questions from whattsapp were better and more to the point.
And Ali Maxwell: why? Must be a dozen CAFC fans who could do that.
Technically it was poor, sound was uneven and someone tell CM to look into the camers
I actually think all the fan engagement stuff is good but it's not very sexy for most fans and I have my own issues right now about how much it is real when push comes to shove.
Pleased for Jon and Lewis. I still thing the advisory board set up is totally wrong but that's for another debate.
I'm a big critic of CAST so this will be dismissed by some as having an axe to grind but tonight Heather didn't present CAST as an organisation likely to ask tough or probing questions or that would hold the board to account.
Overall, it was good that it happened but I think the club over managed it due to a lack of confidence/fear of difficult questions when in reality they would have been better to just take whatever came. Nothing should really come as a surprise to them and none of the four are that inarticulate or unable to think on their feet.
So, in a nutshell......
The owners are happy to keep ploughing in £10m a year just to stay in this division, with every few seasons a player sale might be enough to buy a couple more mediocre players that will help us finish 10th. Because they have no ambition to ever spend any money that might get us out of this poxy league.
RIght-o.
Not what I said.
I believe CM sold them the idea that he could reduce costs and increase income (see his ££ slide) and this, plus boosting the squad with academy talent which is our big USP, would produce the additional budget to produce a promotion winning team.
Not happened IMHO because of our poor recruitment (even Rodwell said how poorly we'd used the loan market) and the churn of managers.
I didn’t listen to it, but my reading of the comments made by the SMT is very simple, the plan is. That the owners agreed to give Charlton £10 million a year (losses where around £9 million per year when they took over) to fund the losses which they appear to be doing and are willing to do, therefore at present they are keeping to there part of the plan. This meant we had a million to invest in players and infrastructure/ infrastructure.
The problem is that the SMT stated they could reduce the losses to a more sustainable £3 million or less per year which meant there would be around £7 million per year for investment in players and infrastructure, this they have failed to do successfully as from the figures shown by the SMT would appear that the reduction was being generous £1/2 million or less, so the losses reduced from around £9 million to £8.5 millions. Which means now we have £1.5 millions to invest in infrastructure/ players.
So as I see it the owners are doing their bit, but the SMT have totally failed, I know this is very simplistic but, the owners must be looking at the figures and surly thinking, the SMT are failing and need replacing. They will not be thinking about spending more money than they agreed to (for ground purchase, but if pushed them may consider extending lease), infrastructure and new players, let’s be honest would you?
So my expectations is that there will be a new SMT in place by this time next year, they will be charged to reduce costs hopefully to a more realistic figure (my guess £5 million or less) therefore Charlton would have around £5 million a year for infrastructure and players. The big worry is how do you reduce the losses to £5 million?
Probably a load of rubbish, but that’s my take from what I read on here.
Yes, firstly, I've no idea where the £3m figure came from....... and that would have made a good question perhaps? And then grasping at a straw...... would it be feasible to develop the academy to contributing a further £7m net per annum from player sales......... mens and women's..... by somehow holding on to our young talent for longer.... for silly money...... rather than taking the first offer that came along.....?
He actually said £1m-£2m and that anyone competent could do that and then offset it with player trading - the article does refer to promotion although not in his quote. It’s unlikely you could get to £1m-£2m and stay in the Championship year on year. RD tried that. It basically means running a L1 playing budget and filling the operating loss with the extra central income.
i have a feeling CM said something about getting operating losses down to £6m this season previously, but I haven’t found it. Anyone else remember that?
Thank you! I knew he said, had read he'd said it and we haven't achieved it!
And so.... "You will do that if you have any kind of competence at all"
So, proving my point CM and the SMT HAVE NO KIND OF COMPETENCE AT ALL
Case closed. THAT particular morsel is the line spun to the financiers, I am almost certain of it.....
I asked CM about this at Bromley (but unfortunately in an elongated manner). So he managed to waffle on about revenues being up without addressing the question put.
Not wishing to come across as over bullish at a meeting and make everyone uncomfortable I let him get away with it.
I’d happily pursue it further if I didn’t get the feeling it would not get the approval of the faint hearted.
@Braziliance I won’t quote so not to clog up the thread but I think our wires are crossed. Of course our fans/people with tenuous links care how we play, I’m saying a Shrewsbury fan isn’t more or less likely to sit in the Jimmy Seed based on how Charlton play.
But I fully agree about the aging fan base. I think CM has seen that but his methods for fixing it are massively flawed
They would though if we were a draw and in the Premier league. That's my point mate. Shrewsbury would take more if we were an established Premier League side with exciting players.
That's why we take a combined 450 to Wigan and Bolton on a Tuesday night, but 10k to Manchester United. If Wigan and Bolton were as good as ManU, had the same quality of player and were up there, we'd take thousands as the tie becomes more exciting.
So now I'm applying that same logic to potential new fans. We need to be exciting to gain new fans. We are struggling in this league. Only Wrexham, who I used as an example drummed up an interest in one of our games. As far as I am aware, two of our owners have double the wealth of Ryan Reynolds, why can't they make us exciting as Reynolds has Wrexham.
These are strategy failures for me, and the discussions that should be had. We have two billionaire owners, let's look like it.
Sorry, but a waste of time, people shouldn't even bother tuning in.
Ultimately the two most important things (promotion and ground ownership) are solved by money, and it appears we have owners that aren't willing to break the bank to get it done.
We won't improve our fan base, as there's too many London clubs better than us, we are currently the 3rd worst professional London football club out of 13 (I am not including the non league riff raff). Until that changes, we won't attract new fans unless they are generational fans.
I'd actually be happy for them to say at this point "we don't have the money to bring you back to the Premier league, we are aiming to keep you afloat until we can make you a more ambitious project to purchase for someone else and make some potential profit on you". Deadly serious as well. I don't believe for a second these owners care further than viewing us as a 3-5 year flip project.
You cannot and I can't emphasise this enough, cannot sustain in this league for a club of our size in London. We are being swallowed every year by more ambitious clubs around us. Brentford as an example are a much bigger club than us now. Forget history, no one cares that we had a good few years in the prem. They dwarf us in following and riches now, that would have been inconceivable only over a decade or so ago. How bad can it get in another decade?
I think people genuinely underestimate how broken we are at times based on youtube chats etc.
All these questions about signs, turnstiles and food options do my nut in. I want to watch Charlton be a team that plays at the top level or at least the second level. Not mixing it up with bloody Shrewsbury, Northampton etc every year. (Sorry any Salops and Cobblers who may be floating about.)
It's imperative we get out of this league and become a good football side again, and it feels like cold water is being thrown on that to me. It's all about being 'sensible' and you just can't be in the modern game, you'll be left behind.
There are plenty of examples of teams that are sensible and well-ran climbing the leagues, Brentford just from your post are one of them. There are also lots of examples of teams not being sensible and putting themselves in difficulty. I’d rather try and be a sensible well run club (not saying we are succeeding at this at all), you are much more likely to sustain success by doing this
We can’t just demand ownerships to chuck huge money at this, it just isn’t going to happen. Even with the current levels of spending which you deem not near enough, we are losing £9m a year. This ownership, nor any other potential ownership, isnt going to want to lose significantly more than that into a club that doesn’t even own its assets. You need to be more realistic, we’ve been an absolute shitshow on and off the pitch for a decade, that isn’t going to be turned around overnight, and the state the club and assets are in mean that you aren’t going to get a magic billionaire come in and throw money at it till it succeeds
You will not be able to give me one example of a team that has achieved promotions without spending a fuck ton of money, or, been lucky with academy products. Brentford chucked millions at their team. They of course sold a lot of players for big fees to keep this going, but they were always spending millions on players, that's how it started. Big fees to keep up with the modern game. Brighton who are viewed as a sensible club were the same, spent fortunes to get to the Premier league, so did Bournemouth. None of these became the club's they are now by being sensible.
It's the complete opposite to what you are saying, we won't sustain like this. This, and rolling the dice and it rolling low will lead to the same outcomes. They both have their own risks.
Losing 9 million a year, exactly! So our owners/represtatives as an example, have literally said, they aren't willing to pay the 40-50 million or whatever it is that Roland is asking for, as its too much. So how long are they willing to be a league1 club for before that's too much money pissed away?
It can literally be turned around in one season with money. If money couldn't turn things around, Birmingham wouldn't be top, Wycombe wouldn't be second and Cambridge wouldn't be bottom. That's all football is, money, that's the harsh reality.
I'm not demanding anything, nor will me doing so make a difference, I am posting what the situation is on a Charlton message board.
If we don't spend a fuck load of money to revive this club, we will die a slow painful death, unless we get extremely lucky, and even then, it would only get us so far. To survive in this climate, you need owners who are willing to spend the cash, all the rest is just noise.
There is no such thing as a 5 year plan in this league, by the time you're two years in, all your players and potentially manager will be hoovered up. Good players don't want to spend 5 years in this shit league, they might be more inclined in the championship where they're potentially one season away from the promised land.
Plymouth, Pompey and Oxford are three examples of clubs that got promoted without spending loads of money and “getting lucky with academy grads”
Those clubs utilised the free agent and loan market brilliantly. They also all had joined up thinking between management, director of football and executives. Something we have lacked.
Which is grand for them, but one of them looks very likely to come back down in Plymouth, Pompey could go down still. On the chance of Oxford now staying up, they will find themselves in the same struggle if they don't adjust and match the other big spenders. Sometimes you can get lucky and do it on the cheap, but that will catch up to you, as we learned in 2019.
I need to make it clear at this point that I don't view a single promotion and a relegation as a success. I don't want us to be like Rotherham or Barsnley as two examples.
Fee signings are overrated -- a player doesn't immediately become better because we signed them for money. Many good players run down their contract so they can take the best offer. Some teams have gone up with barely anything spent on fees. Yeah, they might be struggling in the Champ, but whether you can survive there without investment is a different argument altogether.
Sorry, but a waste of time, people shouldn't even bother tuning in.
Ultimately the two most important things (promotion and ground ownership) are solved by money, and it appears we have owners that aren't willing to break the bank to get it done.
We won't improve our fan base, as there's too many London clubs better than us, we are currently the 3rd worst professional London football club out of 13 (I am not including the non league riff raff). Until that changes, we won't attract new fans unless they are generational fans.
I'd actually be happy for them to say at this point "we don't have the money to bring you back to the Premier league, we are aiming to keep you afloat until we can make you a more ambitious project to purchase for someone else and make some potential profit on you". Deadly serious as well. I don't believe for a second these owners care further than viewing us as a 3-5 year flip project.
You cannot and I can't emphasise this enough, cannot sustain in this league for a club of our size in London. We are being swallowed every year by more ambitious clubs around us. Brentford as an example are a much bigger club than us now. Forget history, no one cares that we had a good few years in the prem. They dwarf us in following and riches now, that would have been inconceivable only over a decade or so ago. How bad can it get in another decade?
I think people genuinely underestimate how broken we are at times based on youtube chats etc.
All these questions about signs, turnstiles and food options do my nut in. I want to watch Charlton be a team that plays at the top level or at least the second level. Not mixing it up with bloody Shrewsbury, Northampton etc every year. (Sorry any Salops and Cobblers who may be floating about.)
It's imperative we get out of this league and become a good football side again, and it feels like cold water is being thrown on that to me. It's all about being 'sensible' and you just can't be in the modern game, you'll be left behind.
There are plenty of examples of teams that are sensible and well-ran climbing the leagues, Brentford just from your post are one of them. There are also lots of examples of teams not being sensible and putting themselves in difficulty. I’d rather try and be a sensible well run club (not saying we are succeeding at this at all), you are much more likely to sustain success by doing this
We can’t just demand ownerships to chuck huge money at this, it just isn’t going to happen. Even with the current levels of spending which you deem not near enough, we are losing £9m a year. This ownership, nor any other potential ownership, isnt going to want to lose significantly more than that into a club that doesn’t even own its assets. You need to be more realistic, we’ve been an absolute shitshow on and off the pitch for a decade, that isn’t going to be turned around overnight, and the state the club and assets are in mean that you aren’t going to get a magic billionaire come in and throw money at it till it succeeds
You will not be able to give me one example of a team that has achieved promotions without spending a fuck ton of money, or, been lucky with academy products. Brentford chucked millions at their team. They of course sold a lot of players for big fees to keep this going, but they were always spending millions on players, that's how it started. Big fees to keep up with the modern game. Brighton who are viewed as a sensible club were the same, spent fortunes to get to the Premier league, so did Bournemouth. None of these became the club's they are now by being sensible.
It's the complete opposite to what you are saying, we won't sustain like this. This, and rolling the dice and it rolling low will lead to the same outcomes. They both have their own risks.
Losing 9 million a year, exactly! So our owners/represtatives as an example, have literally said, they aren't willing to pay the 40-50 million or whatever it is that Roland is asking for, as its too much. So how long are they willing to be a league1 club for before that's too much money pissed away?
It can literally be turned around in one season with money. If money couldn't turn things around, Birmingham wouldn't be top, Wycombe wouldn't be second and Cambridge wouldn't be bottom. That's all football is, money, that's the harsh reality.
I'm not demanding anything, nor will me doing so make a difference, I am posting what the situation is on a Charlton message board.
If we don't spend a fuck load of money to revive this club, we will die a slow painful death, unless we get extremely lucky, and even then, it would only get us so far. To survive in this climate, you need owners who are willing to spend the cash, all the rest is just noise.
There is no such thing as a 5 year plan in this league, by the time you're two years in, all your players and potentially manager will be hoovered up. Good players don't want to spend 5 years in this shit league, they might be more inclined in the championship where they're potentially one season away from the promised land.
Plymouth, Pompey and Oxford are three examples of clubs that got promoted without spending loads of money and “getting lucky with academy grads”
Those clubs utilised the free agent and loan market brilliantly. They also all had joined up thinking between management, director of football and executives. Something we have lacked.
Which is grand for them, but one of them looks very likely to come back down in Plymouth, Pompey could go down still. On the chance of Oxford now staying up, they will find themselves in the same struggle if they don't adjust and match the other big spenders. Sometimes you can get lucky and do it on the cheap, but that will catch up to you, as we learned in 2019.
I need to make it clear at this point that I don't view a single promotion and a relegation as a success. I don't want us to be like Rotherham or Barsnley as two examples.
After 5 years in League One, I’d happily take one year in the championship. Easy to say spend spend spend, when 1, it isn’t your money. And two, when you assume spending brings instant success.
Fee signings are overrated -- a player doesn't immediately become better because we signed them for money. Many good players run down their contract so they can take the best offer. Some teams have gone up with barely anything spent on fees. Yeah, they might be struggling in the Champ, but whether you can survive there without investment is a different argument altogether.
And when you sign these players on a free, it's achieved by matching the going price for wages, being willing to pay agent fees, paying the right money to secure the right recruitment scouts who can identify these players, paying the free agent a lucrative signing on fee to match or fend off competition.
You still need to be competitive to sign free agents or have an advantage in some form like area. We secured Lyle Taylor and Alfie May over Sunderland and Derby respectively through location as an example.
Spending transfer fees can in some cases can bypass competition in the free agent market and potentially avoid bigger singing on fees.
Top free agents aren't cheap. This all falls back to spending cash, again.
Fee signings are overrated -- a player doesn't immediately become better because we signed them for money. Many good players run down their contract so they can take the best offer. Some teams have gone up with barely anything spent on fees. Yeah, they might be struggling in the Champ, but whether you can survive there without investment is a different argument altogether.
And when you sign these players on a free, it's achieved by matching the going price for wages, being willing to pay agent fees, paying the right money to secure the right recruitment scouts who can identify these players, paying the free agent a lucrative signing on fee to match or fend off competition.
You still need to be competitive to sign free agents or have an advantage in some form like area. We secured Lyle Taylor and Alfie May over Sunderland and Derby respectively through location as an example.
Spending transfer fees can in some cases can bypass competition in the free agent market and potentially avoid bigger singing on fees.
Top free agents aren't cheap. This all falls back to spending cash, again.
We have consistently underperformed relative to our budget, to a huge margin. If the fourth-highest budget in the league (effectively third, given the anomaly of Birmingham) lands us in 10th place, simply spending more won't solve the problem. Even jumping to the second-highest budget doesn't bridge that gap. In my view, the issue continues to be how we spend, not what we spend.
Fee signings are overrated -- a player doesn't immediately become better because we signed them for money. Many good players run down their contract so they can take the best offer. Some teams have gone up with barely anything spent on fees. Yeah, they might be struggling in the Champ, but whether you can survive there without investment is a different argument altogether.
And when you sign these players on a free, it's achieved by matching the going price for wages, being willing to pay agent fees, paying the right money to secure the right recruitment scouts who can identify these players, paying the free agent a lucrative signing on fee to match or fend off competition.
You still need to be competitive to sign free agents or have an advantage in some form like area. We secured Lyle Taylor and Alfie May over Sunderland and Derby respectively through location as an example.
Spending transfer fees can in some cases can bypass competition in the free agent market and potentially avoid bigger singing on fees.
Top free agents aren't cheap. This all falls back to spending cash, again.
We have consistently underperformed relative to our budget, to a huge margin. If the fourth-highest budget in the league (effectively third, given the anomaly of Birmingham) lands us in 10th place, simply spending more won't solve the problem. Even jumping to the second-highest budget doesn't bridge that gap. In my view, the issue continues to be how we spend, not what we spend.
And what motivates hiring the people who actually understand football, the value of players and that can scout efficiently..
Jon Whitfield and Lewis Catt appointed to the new Advisory Board.
Get the fuck in Defo the two best candidates
Brilliant. They should be running the supporters Trust as well.
Of course anyone who wants to change the trust could stand for election on the board, doesn’t seem to happen people just pile on. I haven’t been able to watch tonight and I’m sure the criticism is valid but if people want to change something they have the option to
Nothing wrong with the concept of a Supporters Trust. Every club should have one, but its how its run is important
Name one that is run significantly better, and how exactly.
Alternatively stand for election, get voted in, and show us all how to run it better.
no knowledge on the trust either pro or anti, just think that the questions, that they thought to be important to the fans, were completely misjudged and therefore give the impression that they do not have their finger on the pulse of what is the fans priorities.
They are not the questions I'd have asked either. The first one might have worked if Heather was moderating a live interview with them, with follow up questions and in front of a live audience. Second one seemed pretty marginal to me too, but I suppose Heather figured that all the most obvious questions would be asked by multiple fans,and she's always aware the Trust has to represent the broad fanbase. I'm sure she didn't think the banner was the most important issue to ask about.
The Supporters Trust, and most other Supporters Trusts would much prefer a live meeting of sustained questioning, or regular minuted closed meetings, with owners/SMTs. Very few STs manage to get that. The more "issues' there are among supporters, the less likely owners and SMTs agree to such formats.
Anyway my response was specifically to Shirty5 who has been making similar comments like that for the last 10 years without ever explaining how it would be run better, let alone getting himself elected to run it better. And I've met with a lot of ST board members from other clubs in the last 10 years ago, they all get the same kind of shit hurled at them. Two stalwarts from the Spurs Trust, name of Martin Cloake and Kat Law were out here a few weeks ago so I caught up with them. Top people. Managed to get Daniel Levy to agree to minuted meetings. Few years back, Kat was getting vicious dogs' abuse on Twitter from mighty Spurs keyboard warriors about the state of the stadium bogs, I mean like, as if it were her responsibility to get them fixed. Thing was, they weren't the bogs at WHL. They weren't even bogs in an English stadium. It was effing Red Star Belgrade!! Kat was there of course, they are away with Spurs most games, and apparently because she was there, she should have had the Serbian khazis fixed.
Good luck to John and Lewis, let's see how much they manage to achieve.
You mention Martin Cloake…..surely that can’t be the ex member of the Charlton Vice Presidents Club? He lives in West London and Charlton blood runs through his veins, he is/was a black cab driver. Nice fella and his son is also a 100% Addick, often seen together at home and some away games….though I must admit I’ve not seen him for a while. I find it very hard to believe that he would be involved in any shape or form with Spurs? 🧐
There’s a different Martin Cloake who is part of the Spurs trust.
“Our” Martin Cloke’s son Ben is one of our guys on Charlton Live
Thanks for clearing that up Louis……quite a coincidence though I have to say.🤔
Fee signings are overrated -- a player doesn't immediately become better because we signed them for money. Many good players run down their contract so they can take the best offer. Some teams have gone up with barely anything spent on fees. Yeah, they might be struggling in the Champ, but whether you can survive there without investment is a different argument altogether.
I think the gap is getting bigger and bigger in terms of what you need to invest upon promotion to stay in the championship every year. It's going to be an interesting conundrum because it's getting to the point that you'd probably need to be investing £5-10m to keep up with the midtable sides.
Sorry, but a waste of time, people shouldn't even bother tuning in.
Ultimately the two most important things (promotion and ground ownership) are solved by money, and it appears we have owners that aren't willing to break the bank to get it done.
We won't improve our fan base, as there's too many London clubs better than us, we are currently the 3rd worst professional London football club out of 13 (I am not including the non league riff raff). Until that changes, we won't attract new fans unless they are generational fans.
I'd actually be happy for them to say at this point "we don't have the money to bring you back to the Premier league, we are aiming to keep you afloat until we can make you a more ambitious project to purchase for someone else and make some potential profit on you". Deadly serious as well. I don't believe for a second these owners care further than viewing us as a 3-5 year flip project.
You cannot and I can't emphasise this enough, cannot sustain in this league for a club of our size in London. We are being swallowed every year by more ambitious clubs around us. Brentford as an example are a much bigger club than us now. Forget history, no one cares that we had a good few years in the prem. They dwarf us in following and riches now, that would have been inconceivable only over a decade or so ago. How bad can it get in another decade?
I think people genuinely underestimate how broken we are at times based on youtube chats etc.
All these questions about signs, turnstiles and food options do my nut in. I want to watch Charlton be a team that plays at the top level or at least the second level. Not mixing it up with bloody Shrewsbury, Northampton etc every year. (Sorry any Salops and Cobblers who may be floating about.)
It's imperative we get out of this league and become a good football side again, and it feels like cold water is being thrown on that to me. It's all about being 'sensible' and you just can't be in the modern game, you'll be left behind.
There are plenty of examples of teams that are sensible and well-ran climbing the leagues, Brentford just from your post are one of them. There are also lots of examples of teams not being sensible and putting themselves in difficulty. I’d rather try and be a sensible well run club (not saying we are succeeding at this at all), you are much more likely to sustain success by doing this
We can’t just demand ownerships to chuck huge money at this, it just isn’t going to happen. Even with the current levels of spending which you deem not near enough, we are losing £9m a year. This ownership, nor any other potential ownership, isnt going to want to lose significantly more than that into a club that doesn’t even own its assets. You need to be more realistic, we’ve been an absolute shitshow on and off the pitch for a decade, that isn’t going to be turned around overnight, and the state the club and assets are in mean that you aren’t going to get a magic billionaire come in and throw money at it till it succeeds
You will not be able to give me one example of a team that has achieved promotions without spending a fuck ton of money, or, been lucky with academy products. Brentford chucked millions at their team. They of course sold a lot of players for big fees to keep this going, but they were always spending millions on players, that's how it started. Big fees to keep up with the modern game. Brighton who are viewed as a sensible club were the same, spent fortunes to get to the Premier league, so did Bournemouth. None of these became the club's they are now by being sensible.
It's the complete opposite to what you are saying, we won't sustain like this. This, and rolling the dice and it rolling low will lead to the same outcomes. They both have their own risks.
Losing 9 million a year, exactly! So our owners/represtatives as an example, have literally said, they aren't willing to pay the 40-50 million or whatever it is that Roland is asking for, as its too much. So how long are they willing to be a league1 club for before that's too much money pissed away?
It can literally be turned around in one season with money. If money couldn't turn things around, Birmingham wouldn't be top, Wycombe wouldn't be second and Cambridge wouldn't be bottom. That's all football is, money, that's the harsh reality.
I'm not demanding anything, nor will me doing so make a difference, I am posting what the situation is on a Charlton message board.
If we don't spend a fuck load of money to revive this club, we will die a slow painful death, unless we get extremely lucky, and even then, it would only get us so far. To survive in this climate, you need owners who are willing to spend the cash, all the rest is just noise.
There is no such thing as a 5 year plan in this league, by the time you're two years in, all your players and potentially manager will be hoovered up. Good players don't want to spend 5 years in this shit league, they might be more inclined in the championship where they're potentially one season away from the promised land.
Plymouth, Pompey and Oxford are three examples of clubs that got promoted without spending loads of money and “getting lucky with academy grads”
Those clubs utilised the free agent and loan market brilliantly. They also all had joined up thinking between management, director of football and executives. Something we have lacked.
Which is grand for them, but one of them looks very likely to come back down in Plymouth, Pompey could go down still. On the chance of Oxford now staying up, they will find themselves in the same struggle if they don't adjust and match the other big spenders. Sometimes you can get lucky and do it on the cheap, but that will catch up to you, as we learned in 2019.
I need to make it clear at this point that I don't view a single promotion and a relegation as a success. I don't want us to be like Rotherham or Barsnley as two examples.
That isn't what you first said though: "You will not be able to give me one example of a team that has achieved promotions without spending a fuck ton of money, or, been lucky with academy products" which is why i've read about a dozen replies listing teams who got promoted.
Also in reply to your earlier message, Brentford didn't get promoted by spending loads of money. They did it by great recruitment. Continually selling players then buying others with the money. For example they sold Andre Gray and Scott Hogan and went and got Watkins and Maupay. When Watkins was sold for 30m they spent just a quarter of that to get Ivan Toney. They sold Tony for 40m.
They bought Konsa from us for 2.5m and a year later sold him for 12m. They got Benrahma for 2.5m and sold him for 25m. Raya bought for 3m and sold for 30m. Mbeumo cost them less than 6m and is now worth 10 times that.
Sorry, but a waste of time, people shouldn't even bother tuning in.
Ultimately the two most important things (promotion and ground ownership) are solved by money, and it appears we have owners that aren't willing to break the bank to get it done.
We won't improve our fan base, as there's too many London clubs better than us, we are currently the 3rd worst professional London football club out of 13 (I am not including the non league riff raff). Until that changes, we won't attract new fans unless they are generational fans.
I'd actually be happy for them to say at this point "we don't have the money to bring you back to the Premier league, we are aiming to keep you afloat until we can make you a more ambitious project to purchase for someone else and make some potential profit on you". Deadly serious as well. I don't believe for a second these owners care further than viewing us as a 3-5 year flip project.
You cannot and I can't emphasise this enough, cannot sustain in this league for a club of our size in London. We are being swallowed every year by more ambitious clubs around us. Brentford as an example are a much bigger club than us now. Forget history, no one cares that we had a good few years in the prem. They dwarf us in following and riches now, that would have been inconceivable only over a decade or so ago. How bad can it get in another decade?
I think people genuinely underestimate how broken we are at times based on youtube chats etc.
All these questions about signs, turnstiles and food options do my nut in. I want to watch Charlton be a team that plays at the top level or at least the second level. Not mixing it up with bloody Shrewsbury, Northampton etc every year. (Sorry any Salops and Cobblers who may be floating about.)
It's imperative we get out of this league and become a good football side again, and it feels like cold water is being thrown on that to me. It's all about being 'sensible' and you just can't be in the modern game, you'll be left behind.
There are plenty of examples of teams that are sensible and well-ran climbing the leagues, Brentford just from your post are one of them. There are also lots of examples of teams not being sensible and putting themselves in difficulty. I’d rather try and be a sensible well run club (not saying we are succeeding at this at all), you are much more likely to sustain success by doing this
We can’t just demand ownerships to chuck huge money at this, it just isn’t going to happen. Even with the current levels of spending which you deem not near enough, we are losing £9m a year. This ownership, nor any other potential ownership, isnt going to want to lose significantly more than that into a club that doesn’t even own its assets. You need to be more realistic, we’ve been an absolute shitshow on and off the pitch for a decade, that isn’t going to be turned around overnight, and the state the club and assets are in mean that you aren’t going to get a magic billionaire come in and throw money at it till it succeeds
You will not be able to give me one example of a team that has achieved promotions without spending a fuck ton of money, or, been lucky with academy products. Brentford chucked millions at their team. They of course sold a lot of players for big fees to keep this going, but they were always spending millions on players, that's how it started. Big fees to keep up with the modern game. Brighton who are viewed as a sensible club were the same, spent fortunes to get to the Premier league, so did Bournemouth. None of these became the club's they are now by being sensible.
It's the complete opposite to what you are saying, we won't sustain like this. This, and rolling the dice and it rolling low will lead to the same outcomes. They both have their own risks.
Losing 9 million a year, exactly! So our owners/represtatives as an example, have literally said, they aren't willing to pay the 40-50 million or whatever it is that Roland is asking for, as its too much. So how long are they willing to be a league1 club for before that's too much money pissed away?
It can literally be turned around in one season with money. If money couldn't turn things around, Birmingham wouldn't be top, Wycombe wouldn't be second and Cambridge wouldn't be bottom. That's all football is, money, that's the harsh reality.
I'm not demanding anything, nor will me doing so make a difference, I am posting what the situation is on a Charlton message board.
If we don't spend a fuck load of money to revive this club, we will die a slow painful death, unless we get extremely lucky, and even then, it would only get us so far. To survive in this climate, you need owners who are willing to spend the cash, all the rest is just noise.
There is no such thing as a 5 year plan in this league, by the time you're two years in, all your players and potentially manager will be hoovered up. Good players don't want to spend 5 years in this shit league, they might be more inclined in the championship where they're potentially one season away from the promised land.
Plymouth, Pompey and Oxford are three examples of clubs that got promoted without spending loads of money and “getting lucky with academy grads”
Those clubs utilised the free agent and loan market brilliantly. They also all had joined up thinking between management, director of football and executives. Something we have lacked.
Which is grand for them, but one of them looks very likely to come back down in Plymouth, Pompey could go down still. On the chance of Oxford now staying up, they will find themselves in the same struggle if they don't adjust and match the other big spenders. Sometimes you can get lucky and do it on the cheap, but that will catch up to you, as we learned in 2019.
I need to make it clear at this point that I don't view a single promotion and a relegation as a success. I don't want us to be like Rotherham or Barsnley as two examples.
That isn't what you first said though: "You will not be able to give me one example of a team that has achieved promotions without spending a fuck ton of money, or, been lucky with academy products" which is why i've read about a dozen replies listing teams who got promoted.
Also in reply to your earlier message, Brentford didn't get promoted by spending loads of money. They did it by great recruitment. Continually selling players then buying others with the money. For example they sold Andre Gray and Scott Hogan and went and got Watkins and Maupay. When Watkins was sold for 30m they spent just a quarter of that to get Ivan Toney. They sold Tony for 40m.
They bought Konsa from us for 2.5m and a year later sold him for 12m. They got Benrahma for 2.5m and sold him for 25m. Raya bought for 3m and sold for 30m. Mbeumo cost them less than 6m and is now worth 10 times that.
So just to clarify. Every club that got promoted did actually spend money, or had good players already. Which would have cost them money at some stage, and the teams who didn't carry on doing so have ended up back down here, or are on a trajectory to do so?
And Brentford did get promoted by spending millions initially? Whether or not they made profit, is not entirely relevant to my point, they still gambled/showed ambition by signing the players initially for very high fees at the time. It all started with them spending millions and buying players. How much they made in the future is an entirely different topic in itself.
You didn't need to highlight what they spent, as I already know. That is why I deliberately mentioned them. They bought Watkins for 7 million. Where'd they get the money from? Previous sales. How did they facilitate those signings prior? By buying those players for very high fees.
People could reply to me a thousand times. Doesn't make a difference, you need to spend money to make money. That applies to any business in life.
There are no magic beans. Even if we wanted to sell academy products to fund a competitive team, we would still need to invest heavily into that side of things.
We would also struggle to keep or lure very good academy prospects because of our first teams position. Like I said earlier, one of the worst London clubs. We are up against the likes of Arsenal, West Ham, Chelsea, Spurs, Palace, Fulham, Millwall, QPR etc.
We can only avoid that by being in the higher leagues. It's extremely unlikely we will have players of the quality of Joe Gomez, Lookman, Konsa etc as a league1 side.
The thing I distinctly picked up on which pissed me off was the strongly hinted scenario that we are going to be producing players for the benefit of other clubs. THIS IS NOT WHAT WE WANT TO BE HEARING!
The thing I distinctly picked up on which pissed me off was the strongly hinted scenario that we are going to be producing players for the benefit of other clubs. THIS IS NOT WHAT WE WANT TO BE HEARING!
Fee signings are overrated -- a player doesn't immediately become better because we signed them for money. Many good players run down their contract so they can take the best offer. Some teams have gone up with barely anything spent on fees. Yeah, they might be struggling in the Champ, but whether you can survive there without investment is a different argument altogether.
And when you sign these players on a free, it's achieved by matching the going price for wages, being willing to pay agent fees, paying the right money to secure the right recruitment scouts who can identify these players, paying the free agent a lucrative signing on fee to match or fend off competition.
You still need to be competitive to sign free agents or have an advantage in some form like area. We secured Lyle Taylor and Alfie May over Sunderland and Derby respectively through location as an example.
Spending transfer fees can in some cases can bypass competition in the free agent market and potentially avoid bigger singing on fees.
Top free agents aren't cheap. This all falls back to spending cash, again.
Spending money is generally the key, we're trying to do things on the cheap. That is the problem.
Comments
T'was ever thus...
And so.... "You will do that if you have any kind of competence at all"
So, proving my point CM and the SMT HAVE NO KIND OF COMPETENCE AT ALL
Case closed. THAT particular morsel is the line spun to the financiers, I am almost certain of it.....
Just to give you a few examples off the top of my head, whenever I go to Shrewsbury, I have two mates who live there, one of them only goes cause he wants to help me with vlogging now, before I did he had 0 interest in going. The other has outright said he won't go cause we are shit. Now these aren't necessarily the fans we want, as they support another club for a start, but that would still be potential revenue for the club, and is interest towards our club. I also genuinely have loads of friends who feel the same way, they'd go, if it wasn't Charlton.
3 of my school mates would go to the odd Charlton game with me, all Arsenal fans. They were all going to games fairly often when we were back in the championship, as soon as we got relegated again, 0 interest. They have all said they would get Charlton season tickets IF we were a Premier League team through quality of football alone and ease of access.
I'd just like to highlight as well, of 5 of those people I've mentioned. Two are Somalian, one is Jamaican and the other Pakistani. All have been welcomed at the Valley and even said they didn't feel out of place here, excluding the Jamaican who won't go cause we are shit so has no idea what it's like at Charlton.
So when I see these campaigns about diversity, and inclusion, I question do they actually know what the likely reason is why there is a lack of diversity at our games? Cause from my experience and speaking to my fairly diverse friend group, it's because they have a lack of affinity to us as a club. People who don't have relatives as Charlton fans, most of the time, would opt for a more exciting team.
You've got a very diverse area, where some people (particularly young people) will potentially be the first generation of people in their families that were born here. Their relatives probably would have watched the likes of Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea etc from afar, with little to no interest in us. When they grow up and take an interest in football, why would they support Charlton? These are the type of topics we should be discussing. We already know we welcome diversity at Charlton, our players throughout our history have shown that.
I'd imagine most of our fans have been brain washed or had Charlton pushed upon us. I had to practically beg my relatives to go Charlton. Mission accomplished to some extent, but there's still a lack of interest at times. The only reason I support Charlton myself is because my first game was Charlton Arsenal and we beat them, had Arsenal won that day, I'd be an Arsenal fan. Unfortunately, that's how simple it can be growing up. I imagine a 10 year old me now rocking up to the Valley and seeing us lose 2-1 to Crawley, I'd have probably never have gone back.
The owners need to have a difficult conversation, and accept that in 20-30 years, we could be getting even lower attendances than now. We are a club massively on the decline and there's nothing exciting about us. Wrexham are more exciting to the general footballing world, and most people had only heard of them 5 years ago, that's the bitter truth.
I look around and I see an aging fan base (no disrespect to any older fans, I'm not ageist and I respect older fans) I see a lack of diversity and youth at away games, unless it's local, or they support Charlton through family.
The only remedy to all of this is solved by us being good at football. This will encourage younger fans to want to support us as they grow up and the multi national population in the South of London. If we carry on as is, our fan base will only decline, and we will be a less attractive proposition in the long run.
In the last 15 years, the majority has been spent in this league. It could well be another 10 for all we know. I genuinely worry about the damage that would do to this club. If that makes me look like a spoiled brat, or impatient, or ungrateful, so be it. I want to be proud to support Charlton again, and I want us to attract new fans. I want people who don't support Charlton through family reasons alone to want to support us. It all falls back to money and ambition.
But I fully agree about the aging fan base. I think CM has seen that but his methods for fixing it are massively flawed
Those clubs utilised the free agent and loan market brilliantly. They also all had joined up thinking between management, director of football and executives. Something we have lacked.
So he managed to waffle on about revenues being up without addressing the question put.
I’d happily pursue it further if I didn’t get the feeling it would not get the approval of the faint hearted.
That's why we take a combined 450 to Wigan and Bolton on a Tuesday night, but 10k to Manchester United. If Wigan and Bolton were as good as ManU, had the same quality of player and were up there, we'd take thousands as the tie becomes more exciting.
So now I'm applying that same logic to potential new fans. We need to be exciting to gain new fans. We are struggling in this league. Only Wrexham, who I used as an example drummed up an interest in one of our games. As far as I am aware, two of our owners have double the wealth of Ryan Reynolds, why can't they make us exciting as Reynolds has Wrexham.
These are strategy failures for me, and the discussions that should be had. We have two billionaire owners, let's look like it.
I need to make it clear at this point that I don't view a single promotion and a relegation as a success. I don't want us to be like Rotherham or Barsnley as two examples.
You still need to be competitive to sign free agents or have an advantage in some form like area. We secured Lyle Taylor and Alfie May over Sunderland and Derby respectively through location as an example.
Spending transfer fees can in some cases can bypass competition in the free agent market and potentially avoid bigger singing on fees.
Top free agents aren't cheap. This all falls back to spending cash, again.
I think the gap is getting bigger and bigger in terms of what you need to invest upon promotion to stay in the championship every year. It's going to be an interesting conundrum because it's getting to the point that you'd probably need to be investing £5-10m to keep up with the midtable sides.
"You will not be able to give me one example of a team that has achieved promotions without spending a fuck ton of money, or, been lucky with academy products"
which is why i've read about a dozen replies listing teams who got promoted.
Also in reply to your earlier message, Brentford didn't get promoted by spending loads of money. They did it by great recruitment. Continually selling players then buying others with the money. For example they sold Andre Gray and Scott Hogan and went and got Watkins and Maupay. When Watkins was sold for 30m they spent just a quarter of that to get Ivan Toney. They sold Tony for 40m.
They bought Konsa from us for 2.5m and a year later sold him for 12m.
They got Benrahma for 2.5m and sold him for 25m.
Raya bought for 3m and sold for 30m.
Mbeumo cost them less than 6m and is now worth 10 times that.
And Brentford did get promoted by spending millions initially? Whether or not they made profit, is not entirely relevant to my point, they still gambled/showed ambition by signing the players initially for very high fees at the time. It all started with them spending millions and buying players. How much they made in the future is an entirely different topic in itself.
You didn't need to highlight what they spent, as I already know. That is why I deliberately mentioned them. They bought Watkins for 7 million. Where'd they get the money from? Previous sales. How did they facilitate those signings prior? By buying those players for very high fees.
People could reply to me a thousand times. Doesn't make a difference, you need to spend money to make money. That applies to any business in life.
There are no magic beans. Even if we wanted to sell academy products to fund a competitive team, we would still need to invest heavily into that side of things.
We would also struggle to keep or lure very good academy prospects because of our first teams position. Like I said earlier, one of the worst London clubs. We are up against the likes of Arsenal, West Ham, Chelsea, Spurs, Palace, Fulham, Millwall, QPR etc.
We can only avoid that by being in the higher leagues. It's extremely unlikely we will have players of the quality of Joe Gomez, Lookman, Konsa etc as a league1 side.
THIS IS NOT WHAT WE WANT TO BE HEARING!