How long have you been watching live football and presumably living in the same world as the rest of us. Jones is hardly going to say "last game of the season, save your money and time, don't bother coming to support, the game means sod all, I'll have to play a load of the same incapable wankers who have been farting out performances for as long as they've been here, go down the pub instead"
Its the last game of the season, neither side had anything to play for, a fair chunk of those on the pitch are out of contract and have probably already been told they are surplus to requirements or have another club lined up. As much as I desire any player playing for Charlton to leave everything on the pitch I'm aware of this bunches limitations, besides that every Wycombe team I remember watching going back to that rancid league Cup defeat in 2006 has done what they did on Saturday. Killed the game, kicked opposition players, looked to buy fouls themselves, timewaste and get behind the ball when ahead.
Wycombe is always a hard game, they are big, physical and know what they are doing. Lots of our players are shit and seem incapable of doing anything they are told, end of
In the pre match interview Jones did not imply that the game was a dead rubber, or an experiment. Quite the reverse actually. He actually said 'We've gotta make sure we're at it.' And more. If you're able to access his pre Wycombe interview he talks about the game from about three minutes in.
I’m certain Jones did want an “up and at em” performance. I don’t think he ever expects less, but motivating a group of players who know there is nothing to play for and you can add in a fair chunk of the eleven know they’re moving on and what’s said and what happens are two completely different things. If you still think it’s the players making a point of “fuck you” to the fans then I think you’re so far out of whack as to need some help. Not everything is a personal attack directed at you.
The board has been generous so far, no signs of a change (yet) , so it looks good for NJ.
There are no more generous owners than the Coates family who support their managers like very few other owners. If only I could have convinced John to support Charlton!
Nathan Jones wears his heart on his sleeve and that can be great as a motivator or can backfire when things are not going well - the latter was the situation at Stoke and an over-inflated ego-filled dressing room didn't help.
Things are different at Charlton - some meaningful support from the owners (let's face it he was working on a shoestring budget at Luton) together with a group of players who 'get him', and a fair wind with results should mean we have 'Luton' NJ rather than the Stoke or Southampton version.
My fear is that he is backed and does shit. I'm concerned he maybe a bit of a divisive character.
I think the problem will be managing expectations. With Luton he had less pressure to do well. Here, we currently have a midtable league one squad. He will have to make signings to change that but taking a team from 16th to the top 6 in one season is a massive feat, yet people will accept nothing less and start to turn if that isn't looking likely.
I'd like to see him given time regardless of how we start next season. I don't know what to expect for next season but I do believe if you give Nathan 3 years, he will get us out this league.
My fear is that he is backed and does shit. I'm concerned he maybe a bit of a divisive character.
I think he has players that “get him”. Anyone else is up the road.
He seems like the kind of guy who you would describe as either the best coach you had... or the worst, with very little in between.
If it "clicks" and you buy in, you'll find him supportive and encouraging and learn a fair amount too probably. If it doesn't he's just a shouty little man with a funny accent and you're probably going to end up out in the metaphorical cold.
Which is why we need him to be involved in recruitment as he needs buy in from players and no black box or algorithm will really finds that.
My fear is that he is backed and does shit. I'm concerned he maybe a bit of a divisive character.
I think the problem will be managing expectations. With Luton he had less pressure to do well. Here, we currently have a midtable league one squad. He will have to make signings to change that but taking a team from 16th to the top 6 in one season is a massive feat, yet people will accept nothing less and start to turn if that isn't looking likely.
I'd like to see him given time regardless of how we start next season. I don't know what to expect for next season but I do believe if you give Nathan 3 years, he will get us out this league.
I have no idea whether Jones will secure the progress we seek. I am comfortable he will secure progress with a number of individual players because he will challenge them to do better.
Those who have the appetite to meet the challenge will progress, those that don’t will likely fall by the wayside.
Jones has performed to expectation to this point. He did so by limiting the playing pattern to a restricted game plan. The last few games he introduced a few tweaks which with this group served only to confuse. It placed a nice finality to the unbeaten run confirming to both himself and the investors the work that needs to be done.
In terms of approach May is a nice example. We all (inc. Jones) appreciate the contribution May brings to the Group. There is a 100% team ethic but team discipline? Not so much. May, with his background, in search of goals, is want to go “off piste”. If it works he is a diamond. If it doesnt he may just as well not be there.
Not “making an impact” is a polite rebuke. May knows it. Jones knows it.
It is why Kanu & Anderson were used. Jones knew they would deliver to a framework and the industry he wanted.
I believe Jones has been singularly unimpressed with this squads basic understanding of the game. When you have coached at a certain level you have an expectation players will automatically react to game situations. This group largely haven’t done that. Even if they have there appears to be a built in 30 sec delay.
We have been in League 1 far too long.
The recruitment of Wickham and even Lua Lua speak to it. He needed “ grown ups”. Just watching Wickhams natural movement & positional play for 15 minutes revealed what we have missed for far too long. I am not saying we can carry his injury risk but just seeing someone evidencing how to actually lead a front line was a welcome sight.
If that sets a bench mark for future recruitment, then with proven fitness profiles attached there is reason to be optimistic.
I have not been impressed with Jones management, but by avoiding relegation and with his recent media interviews I am having a change of attitude towards him and the apparent backing of our owners.
but
I am a one team supporter and know little of the playing systems of other teams. While I know of Luton's success I do not understand how much Jones's management played in that success and what type of football he used at Luton to achieve success.
So when the more football enlightened of you talk of Jones, his success at Luton and how he will transform our team I do not fully understand and would be grateful of some education on Jones's football management philosophy.
From the time of Jones' appointment, the question was whether he would be Luton Nathan Jones, or Stoke/Southampton Nathan Jones. In short, he has the potential to be very, very successful at this level, or for things to fall apart horribly.
A lot of the earlier posts on this thread were about Wycombe, and I only saw the first half so can't really comment. But in general, Jones came in to a side with some quality but desperately lacking a cohesive gameplan and confidence. He gave them a lot of both. However, after that initial surge, performances and results started to taper off.
Not all of that is on Jones. Some of it was the team being more cautious with injuries, and I'm sure playing players with an eye on next year (especially those with expiring deals). But it did feel like teams started to work us out. The lump it into the channels for May and Kanu to chase became far less effective, especially against weaker sides content to sit deeper and not allow space in behind. We oftentimes looked awkward in possession and taking the game to teams, preferring to look to play in transition instead. And the defense looked better, but still fragile.
This, for me, is where Jones will need to "kick on." There's a lot of talk this summer, as there has been for the last few, about a squad clearout. I think we saw the beginning of that with the retained list. But there are still a lot of players on the books who I'm not convinced by, and as I said on the other thread, many of them have come in in the last year. We don't just need players, we need significant upgrades on players, some of whom cost fees and/or are on significant wages. And that isn't easy to do at our level.
Over the summer we are either going to see a new 11 brought in, or Jones evolving the way his side plays, or possibly both. If you look at the players we have in midfield, for example, it doesn't make sense to have Coventry, Taylor, Anderson, McGrandles, and Fraser (I don't expect all five to be here at the start of the season, but still) only to bypass the midfield and put the ball in the channels. There is quality there, there's no doubt of that. But it's a midfield built to keep the ball and break sides down with clever passing, not simply to play a sort of up and at em style where they focus on winning headers and second balls. And either way, it needs some size and steel.
Same could be said for Kanu, May, Aneke, Campbell, and Leaburn up front (again, expecting some changes/reinforcements here). All can be useful on longer balls, but all are better footballers than they are target men, with maybe the exception of Kanu who isn't a target man but is an agent of chaos (which can be very useful, but whom you can't really build a side around).
So yes, transfers will be key. And with Jones, "buy in" seems to be one of the biggest factors. It seems he's going to be backed in this window. It seems he will have a heavy say in who gets brought in. I think it's now down to whether or not he's as good as most of us hope he is. It's his fifth stint as a manager, two good, two bad so far. This job feels like a "tie breaker" for him in many ways.
My fear is that he is backed and does shit. I'm concerned he maybe a bit of a divisive character.
I think he has players that “get him”. Anyone else is up the road.
He seems like the kind of guy who you would describe as either the best coach you had... or the worst, with very little in between.
If it "clicks" and you buy in, you'll find him supportive and encouraging and learn a fair amount too probably. If it doesn't he's just a shouty little man with a funny accent and you're probably going to end up out in the metaphorical cold.
Which is why we need him to be involved in recruitment as he needs buy in from players and no black box or algorithm will really finds that.
exactly my thoughts on him.....he'll be marmite amongst the players I'm sure, therefore imperative he gets final say in recruitment - and I'm sure he negotiated that when he agreed to join
I have not been impressed with Jones management, but by avoiding relegation and with his recent media interviews I am having a change of attitude towards him and the apparent backing of our owners.
but
I am a one team supporter and know little of the playing systems of other teams. While I know of Luton's success I do not understand how much Jones's management played in that success and what type of football he used at Luton to achieve success.
So when the more football enlightened of you talk of Jones, his success at Luton and how he will transform our team I do not fully understand and would be grateful of some education on Jones's football management philosophy.
He likes his teams to be tall, strong, powerful and on the front foot, with less tippy tappy at the back and more getting the ball forward earlier, closing down and pressurising the opposition.
Was Wycombe away a meh performance, or two fingers to the superb fans who made the effort?
A meh performance by two teams with zip to play for and certainly in Charltons case a good few knowing that it was their last performance in a Charlton shirt. Certainly no two fingers to the travelling fans and I can’t see any way on earth you could think it was.
Any way on earth? Really? I watched it all and whilst doing so I could hear our fans getting behind the team. The players hardly gave a damn.
If you think the players did a purposeful “fuck you” to the fans then it’s even by your standards one of your weirdest posts. It was a typically flat performance by two poor teams with nothing to play for and already on a beach somewhere. It would have been replicated in many games.
You’re welcome to read the match thread, the post match thread and look at the player marks if you like. If you believe my take is so weirdly out of kilter with what others are saying or said then fine. I certainly think that when fans spend on tickets and travel and sell out and sing, in what was potentially a match where the unbeaten run could’ve been sustained, and a good performance could’ve been a nice pointer towards the future, and encouraged ticket sales and a general feel good factor, that the players and management team could have made much more effort. I watched and felt that the players took the support for granted and played like they couldn’t really care less, and Jones put out an appalling team, and did appalling substitutions. Yeah I know, another weird post from me as the only fan who feels let down and insulted by the performance on Saturday.
Can’t disagree with that. However, I think that you are a bit naive in thinking that today’s modern footballer relates to the fans at all. Some of these players wouldn’t bust a gut even if I were to fly from the moon and only had one month to live!
They certainly wouldn’t care that my 9 year old daughter was at her first match, and my son at his first match since the 2019 play off final, and might both have fallen asleep if I hadn’t engaged in conversation with those around me.
The exceptions to this are Dobson and May which is why they are so loved by the fans, and why Dobson got such a great send-off.
Comments
How long have you been watching live football and presumably living in the same world as the rest of us. Jones is hardly going to say "last game of the season, save your money and time, don't bother coming to support, the game means sod all, I'll have to play a load of the same incapable wankers who have been farting out performances for as long as they've been here, go down the pub instead"
Its the last game of the season, neither side had anything to play for, a fair chunk of those on the pitch are out of contract and have probably already been told they are surplus to requirements or have another club lined up. As much as I desire any player playing for Charlton to leave everything on the pitch I'm aware of this bunches limitations, besides that every Wycombe team I remember watching going back to that rancid league Cup defeat in 2006 has done what they did on Saturday. Killed the game, kicked opposition players, looked to buy fouls themselves, timewaste and get behind the ball when ahead.
Wycombe is always a hard game, they are big, physical and know what they are doing. Lots of our players are shit and seem incapable of doing anything they are told, end of
You disagree.
let’s face it he’s a crank of the up and at em mould
how far can it get you next season will show
he does shit =he wasn’t backed
he does well= he’s the messiah
I'd like to see him given time regardless of how we start next season. I don't know what to expect for next season but I do believe if you give Nathan 3 years, he will get us out this league.
If it "clicks" and you buy in, you'll find him supportive and encouraging and learn a fair amount too probably. If it doesn't he's just a shouty little man with a funny accent and you're probably going to end up out in the metaphorical cold.
Which is why we need him to be involved in recruitment as he needs buy in from players and no black box or algorithm will really finds that.
Those who have the appetite to meet the challenge will progress, those that don’t will likely fall by the wayside.
Jones has performed to expectation to this point. He did so by limiting the playing pattern to a restricted game plan. The last few games he introduced a few tweaks which with this group served only to confuse. It placed a nice finality to the unbeaten run confirming to both himself and the investors the work that needs to be done.
In terms of approach May is a nice example. We all (inc. Jones) appreciate the contribution May brings to the Group. There is a 100% team ethic but team discipline? Not so much. May, with his background, in search of goals, is want to go “off piste”. If it works he is a diamond. If it doesnt he may just as well not be there.
Not “making an impact” is a polite rebuke. May knows it. Jones knows it.
It is why Kanu & Anderson were used. Jones knew they would deliver to a framework and the industry he wanted.
I believe Jones has been singularly unimpressed with this squads basic understanding of the game. When you have coached at a certain level you have an expectation players will automatically react to game situations. This group largely haven’t done that. Even if they have there appears to be a built in 30 sec delay.
If that sets a bench mark for future recruitment, then with proven fitness profiles attached there is reason to be optimistic.
but
I am a one team supporter and know little of the playing systems of other teams. While I know of Luton's success I do not understand how much Jones's management played in that success and what type of football he used at Luton to achieve success.
So when the more football enlightened of you talk of Jones, his success at Luton and how he will transform our team I do not fully understand and would be grateful of some education on Jones's football management philosophy.
A lot of the earlier posts on this thread were about Wycombe, and I only saw the first half so can't really comment. But in general, Jones came in to a side with some quality but desperately lacking a cohesive gameplan and confidence. He gave them a lot of both. However, after that initial surge, performances and results started to taper off.
Not all of that is on Jones. Some of it was the team being more cautious with injuries, and I'm sure playing players with an eye on next year (especially those with expiring deals). But it did feel like teams started to work us out. The lump it into the channels for May and Kanu to chase became far less effective, especially against weaker sides content to sit deeper and not allow space in behind. We oftentimes looked awkward in possession and taking the game to teams, preferring to look to play in transition instead. And the defense looked better, but still fragile.
This, for me, is where Jones will need to "kick on." There's a lot of talk this summer, as there has been for the last few, about a squad clearout. I think we saw the beginning of that with the retained list. But there are still a lot of players on the books who I'm not convinced by, and as I said on the other thread, many of them have come in in the last year. We don't just need players, we need significant upgrades on players, some of whom cost fees and/or are on significant wages. And that isn't easy to do at our level.
Over the summer we are either going to see a new 11 brought in, or Jones evolving the way his side plays, or possibly both. If you look at the players we have in midfield, for example, it doesn't make sense to have Coventry, Taylor, Anderson, McGrandles, and Fraser (I don't expect all five to be here at the start of the season, but still) only to bypass the midfield and put the ball in the channels. There is quality there, there's no doubt of that. But it's a midfield built to keep the ball and break sides down with clever passing, not simply to play a sort of up and at em style where they focus on winning headers and second balls. And either way, it needs some size and steel.
Same could be said for Kanu, May, Aneke, Campbell, and Leaburn up front (again, expecting some changes/reinforcements here). All can be useful on longer balls, but all are better footballers than they are target men, with maybe the exception of Kanu who isn't a target man but is an agent of chaos (which can be very useful, but whom you can't really build a side around).
So yes, transfers will be key. And with Jones, "buy in" seems to be one of the biggest factors. It seems he's going to be backed in this window. It seems he will have a heavy say in who gets brought in. I think it's now down to whether or not he's as good as most of us hope he is. It's his fifth stint as a manager, two good, two bad so far. This job feels like a "tie breaker" for him in many ways.
They certainly wouldn’t care that my 9 year old daughter was at her first match, and my son at his first match since the 2019 play off final, and might both have fallen asleep if I hadn’t engaged in conversation with those around me.
The exceptions to this are Dobson and May which is why they are so loved by the fans, and why Dobson got such a great send-off.