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Sangaard did more damage to us than Duchaletet.

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  • PopIcon said:
    I don't think you even have to think about it. Of course Roland did more damage and is still doing so. I have to admit that I am gobsmacked that anybody would see it differently.
    More shocking is the amount of people who agree with this poster!
    It's a series of poor ownerships and mismanagement that has brought us here. Sandgaard and Duchatelet have both contributed to this, but I believe both did what they thought was right in the beginning and both spent a lot of money.

    It was the debacle in the middle of those who caused the most amount of damage,  Matt Southall, Tahnoon Nimer, Paul Elliott and Chris Farnell.
    For me it starts with allowing Dowie to spend over his budget then doing the same with Pardew, but this was all a long time ago now.
    This is fair but the debts were wiped in 2010 and there have also been opportunities to stop the rot in 2012 and 2019 that were not taken. 

    Good people, as well as bad ones, will always make mistakes, but the club failed to reverse the damage when it was well placed to do so. The Spivs had no money and were dishonest borrowing it and Duchatelet was a greedy fool.
    Are you saying Kevin Cash was cashless?
  • Get me a drink. Still some Baileys left
  • I think the kids go back next week.
  • Chizz said:
    For a first-ever thread, I think this is a spectacular effort, Will.  Well done. I can't wait for the next one. 
    He just wanted to get his LOL count off to a strong start. 
  • Whether it was Sangaard, ESI, or whoever, the fact remains that we are now a club that does not own it's ground or training ground.To me that is a big.problem.
    Yes, but the title of your thread says that Sandgaard was worse than Duchatalet. 

    If you are going to start an arguement at least get your facts straight. I see you only joined here in 2022. You might want to reprise yourself of our recent history before starting threads you seem to know nothing about.  
    Whether it was Sangaard, ESI, or whoever, the fact remains that we are now a club that does not own it's ground or training ground.To me that is a big.problem.
    Yes, but the title of your thread says that Sandgaard was worse than Duchatalet. 

    If you are going to start an arguement at least get your facts straight. I see you only joined here in 2022. You might want to reprise yourself of our recent history before starting threads you seem to know nothing about.  
    I have followed this club for probably longer than you so don't be such an arsehole.
    I can confirm @golfaddick has been going for the past 60 years.
  • edited January 3
     One detail which I've never really understood is why Roland suggested/insisted that the EFL bought the club just prior to the ESI sale.
  • edited January 3
    .
    I've made my point

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  • Cloudworm said:
     One detail which I've never really understood is why Roland suggested/insisted that the EFL bought the club just prior to the ESI sale.
    Because he wanted to stop losing money. It wasn’t any deeper than that.
  • Cloudworm said:
     One detail which I've never really understood is why Roland suggested/insisted that the EFL bought the club just prior to the ESI sale.
    That sums up his footballing knowledge.
  • RD was certainly capable of putting together a better squad than anything we've had since, but there was damage done elsewhere, obviously. 

    Southall was worse as all he did was steal from us, give money to his mates and buy copious amounts of snacks. 

    Sandgaard whilst well intentioned was absolutely clueless with anything football and put us in the worst shape we've been on the pitch for a while.

    This new lot. Jury's out, but I think they at least know what they are trying to do with the footballing side. But obvs it's not going that well at the moment.

    But nice to chat xxx
    Don't forget the London apartment, his wife and last but not least The Bitches!!!!
  • JaShea99 said:
    Cloudworm said:
     One detail which I've never really understood is why Roland suggested/insisted that the EFL bought the club just prior to the ESI sale.
    Because he wanted to stop losing money. It wasn’t any deeper than that.
    his premise was that he bought the Club on the believing he could operate it at Break Even, based on the fair play rules, EFL subsequently changed the EFL rules and he felt that EFL were therefore responsible for the losses he was making and should take over the club.
  • Whether it was Sangaard, ESI, or whoever, the fact remains that we are now a club that does not own it's ground or training ground.To me that is a big.problem.
    Yes, but the title of your thread says that Sandgaard was worse than Duchatalet. 

    If you are going to start an arguement at least get your facts straight. I see you only joined here in 2022. You might want to reprise yourself of our recent history before starting threads you seem to know nothing about.  
    Whether it was Sangaard, ESI, or whoever, the fact remains that we are now a club that does not own it's ground or training ground.To me that is a big.problem.
    Yes, but the title of your thread says that Sandgaard was worse than Duchatalet. 

    If you are going to start an arguement at least get your facts straight. I see you only joined here in 2022. You might want to reprise yourself of our recent history before starting threads you seem to know nothing about.  
    I have followed this club for probably longer than you so don't be such an arsehole.
    I can confirm @golfaddick has been going for the past 60 years.
    50.......

    But close enough. 
  • Good post Grapevine.
  • edited January 3


    “Similarly one can understand the intent of restructuring the business under Baton 2010 Ltd which legally separated the ownership of The Valley and Sparrow Lane Training Ground from the club. The principle of common ownership ultimately proved to be no protection.”

    @Grapevine49 I won’t comment on your analysis, much of which I agree with, but you are wrong that the establishment of Baton 2010 separated the ownership of club and ground. The ownership had been divided since the early 1990s - the football company and the property company were each a wholly-owned subsidiary of the plc. Holdings Ltd was set up to protect the assets from the football club’s financial fragility in 1992. Baton was simply an alternative private holding company of which they each remained a wholly owned subsidiary until 2020.

    In fact, the club and ground were also separated from 1982-1992, so the “club” hasn’t owned the ground since Michael Gliksten quit as chairman.
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  • Whether it was Sangaard, ESI, or whoever, the fact remains that we are now a club that does not own it's ground or training ground.To me that is a big.problem.
    Yes, but the title of your thread says that Sandgaard was worse than Duchatalet. 

    If you are going to start an arguement at least get your facts straight. I see you only joined here in 2022. You might want to reprise yourself of our recent history before starting threads you seem to know nothing about.  
    Whether it was Sangaard, ESI, or whoever, the fact remains that we are now a club that does not own it's ground or training ground.To me that is a big.problem.
    Yes, but the title of your thread says that Sandgaard was worse than Duchatalet. 

    If you are going to start an arguement at least get your facts straight. I see you only joined here in 2022. You might want to reprise yourself of our recent history before starting threads you seem to know nothing about.  
    I have followed this club for probably longer than you so don't be such an arsehole.
    I can confirm @golfaddick has been going for the past 60 years.
    50.......

    But close enough. 
    50 ! 50 ! Bloody 'Johnny come lately' 😊 
  • edited January 3
    The pre Roland ownership made errors but when he took over the club was still in a reasonably / potentially healthy state. Loss making clearly but so is every club outside of the premier league - ultimately we had a reasonable supporter base, decent ground and training ground and incidentally an excellent manager and some good players in place. The failings of the previous 8 years were perfectly retrievable with somebody willing to swallow a bit of loss/ investment, and by no means terminal at that stage.

    what Duchatalet did from then on rapidly eroded all of this, culminating in him separating stadium and club in a bid to cover the awful losses and mismanagement he had overseen. For this reason he is responsible for the trail of ill-educated, braindead criminals and shysters that have followed and what he has done is therefore very likely terminal. I fear it will take a miracle to recover us from the state we’re in now. Miracles do happen though. 
    I wouldn’t underestimate the damage they did behind the scenes. About a dozen senior people were either forced out or walked on the business side; the club was hollowed out.

    They enabled a culture of bullying internally, they threatened people’s families and they lied to fans. “Made errors” doesn’t cut it. And that’s before we get to allegations of criminality.
    This is all fair - they were not good people and turned the culture around the club toxic. But as fans on the outside looking in, it's hard to not think that that could've all been remedied in the short to medium term if they had sold the club to someone with good intentions in 2013. Instead, we got Duchatelet.

    As a fan with no skin in the game back then, links to club employees etc, I can't look past the fact that they sold it to him and that's the biggest problem that persists over 10 years later.
  • The pre Roland ownership made errors but when he took over the club was still in a reasonably / potentially healthy state. Loss making clearly but so is every club outside of the premier league - ultimately we had a reasonable supporter base, decent ground and training ground and incidentally an excellent manager and some good players in place. The failings of the previous 8 years were perfectly retrievable with somebody willing to swallow a bit of loss/ investment, and by no means terminal at that stage.

    what Duchatalet did from then on rapidly eroded all of this, culminating in him separating stadium and club in a bid to cover the awful losses and mismanagement he had overseen. For this reason he is responsible for the trail of ill-educated, braindead criminals and shysters that have followed and what he has done is therefore very likely terminal. I fear it will take a miracle to recover us from the state we’re in now. Miracles do happen though. 
    I wouldn’t underestimate the damage they did behind the scenes. About a dozen senior people were either forced out or walked on the business side; the club was hollowed out.

    They enabled a culture of bullying internally, they threatened people’s families and they lied to fans. “Made errors” doesn’t cut it. And that’s before we get to allegations of criminality.
    This is all fair - they were not good people and turned the culture around the club toxic. But as fans on the outside looking in, it's hard to not think that that could've all been remedied in the short to medium term if they had sold the club to someone with good intentions in 2013. Instead, we got Duchatelet.

    As a fan with no skin in the game back then, links to club employees etc, I can't look past the fact that they sold it to him and that's the biggest problem that persists over 10 years later.
    It’s also a function of the fact he couldn’t be bothered to do due diligence and they were desperate, due to holding out too long for a property deal that was never happening anyway.
  • The pre Roland ownership made errors but when he took over the club was still in a reasonably / potentially healthy state. Loss making clearly but so is every club outside of the premier league - ultimately we had a reasonable supporter base, decent ground and training ground and incidentally an excellent manager and some good players in place. The failings of the previous 8 years were perfectly retrievable with somebody willing to swallow a bit of loss/ investment, and by no means terminal at that stage.

    what Duchatalet did from then on rapidly eroded all of this, culminating in him separating stadium and club in a bid to cover the awful losses and mismanagement he had overseen. For this reason he is responsible for the trail of ill-educated, braindead criminals and shysters that have followed and what he has done is therefore very likely terminal. I fear it will take a miracle to recover us from the state we’re in now. Miracles do happen though. 
    I wouldn’t underestimate the damage they did behind the scenes. About a dozen senior people were either forced out or walked on the business side; the club was hollowed out.

    They enabled a culture of bullying internally, they threatened people’s families and they lied to fans. “Made errors” doesn’t cut it. And that’s before we get to allegations of criminality.
    This is all fair - they were not good people and turned the culture around the club toxic. But as fans on the outside looking in, it's hard to not think that that could've all been remedied in the short to medium term if they had sold the club to someone with good intentions in 2013. Instead, we got Duchatelet.

    As a fan with no skin in the game back then, links to club employees etc, I can't look past the fact that they sold it to him and that's the biggest problem that persists over 10 years later.
    It’s also a function of the fact he couldn’t be bothered to do due diligence and they were desperate, due to holding out too long for a property deal that was never happening anyway.
    We were always reminded that Roland knew all and anyone who didn't listen was a fool, a direct quote from the Belgian directed at Chris Powell. Whatever Dutchelet thinks he will never realise his inflated asking price for the freeholds but then again perhaps he never intended to and was just happy get out of the way and sit the freeholds in his estate and continue to lease to whoever owns the Football club.
  • edited January 3
    AndyG said:
    I totally believe TS arrived with the best of intentions and imo without him I doubt we would actually have a club today. He came here and spent money in good faith unfortunately he was a mug and lacked any understanding of football. The people around him who imo should have protected him let him down badly and allowed the fool and his money to be parted, hence Kirk, Aneke the list goes on. Football is awash with dodgy characters who are more than happy to take a few quid to put a word in with the “mark” to get deals done. He burned a fortune on a pile of shite on the advice of gods knows who and I think he realised he was out of his depth
    Pretty much how I see it.

    How ever frustrating he turned out to be, I think it's so important to point out the differences between TS and his intentions, and that of Southall etc. 
  • edited January 3
    You can knock Cash/Slater/Jimenez as much as you want but that title winning season was one of the best in my 37yrs of following. I don't know who introduced them to the club as it did seem a bit random, but what a great season that was (and the following one too actually). A distant memory now sadly. I'm sure there were a few off field issues with staff/infrastructure etc that I'm not aware of, but that was a high point on the pitch in more recent times.

    Re Tommy, a fool and his money are easily parted. A man with good intentions, but no idea what he was doing! Without him we might not be here today though tbf. COYA

    Edit I agree with @paulsturgess that we seemed an attractive proposition to a potential buyer at the time, from the outside looking in anyway.
  • edited January 3
    The pre Roland ownership made errors but when he took over the club was still in a reasonably / potentially healthy state. Loss making clearly but so is every club outside of the premier league - ultimately we had a reasonable supporter base, decent ground and training ground and incidentally an excellent manager and some good players in place. The failings of the previous 8 years were perfectly retrievable with somebody willing to swallow a bit of loss/ investment, and by no means terminal at that stage.

    what Duchatalet did from then on rapidly eroded all of this, culminating in him separating stadium and club in a bid to cover the awful losses and mismanagement he had overseen. For this reason he is responsible for the trail of ill-educated, braindead criminals and shysters that have followed and what he has done is therefore very likely terminal. I fear it will take a miracle to recover us from the state we’re in now. Miracles do happen though. 
    I wouldn’t underestimate the damage they did behind the scenes. About a dozen senior people were either forced out or walked on the business side; the club was hollowed out.

    They enabled a culture of bullying internally, they threatened people’s families and they lied to fans. “Made errors” doesn’t cut it. And that’s before we get to allegations of criminality.
    I get that. But at that stage, to a lay person anyway, the situation was fairly quickly and reasonably easily rectifiable. It certainly isn’t now.

    Another way to look at it, is the package on sale in 2014 to RD , would be a pretty attractive purchase proposition to many in today’s market. I struggle to conceive of a way in which the club today can be made into anything resembling a palatable purchase for anyone with half a brain, let alone an attractive one. Hence we’re now destined for abyss, barring a miracle which is essentially a cryptocurrency billionaire from Sidcup. 
  • edited January 3
    YTS1978 said:
    You can knock Cash/Slater/Jimenez as much as you want but that title winning season was one of the best in my 37yrs of following. I don't know who introduced them to the club as it did seem a bit random, but what a great season that was (and the following one too actually). A distant memory now sadly. I'm sure there were a few off field issues with staff/infrastructure etc that I'm not aware of, but that was a high point on the pitch in more recent times.

    Re Tommy, a fool and his money are easily parted. A man with good intentions, but no idea what he was doing! Without him we might not be here today though tbf. COYA

    Edit I agree with @paulsturgess that we seemed an attractive proposition to a potential buyer at the time, from the outside looking in anyway.
    The football in 2011/12 had very little to do with Jimenez and nothing to do with Slater. Jimenez’s main contribution was to insist on signing two or three players that Powell didn’t want and didn’t play. The “owners” were nowhere to be seen at the club; it was led by Varney and Kavanagh. I never even met Jimenez until December 2012 and I was part of the senior management team based at The Valley for the previous two years.  

    That said I absolutely understand the operating loss was covered and the players and staff paid (all with borrowing), so it’s not unreasonable for fans to credit the people with ultimate responsibility for that at the time. They rode off the experience in the building and kept out of the way. Fair enough.

    The problem came in the summer of 2012 when they tried to appoint their own replacements because Varney and Kavanagh wouldn’t entertain what they were doing financially. But don’t imagine for a minute that these people cared about Charlton, the supporters or the staff, or contributed any management. 

    All you need to know about them is in the court judgement.
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Roland Out Forever!