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Climate Emergency

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  • swordfish said:
    Chizz said:
    1. Norway’s Electricity Exports – Norway’s move to limit electricity exports is based on domestic energy security, not a rejection of net zero policies. Many nations prioritise their own supply in times of scarcity.
    2. Wind Energy Reliability – While wind fluctuations exist, diversified renewable grids, battery storage and backup sources help mitigate intermittency. Climate change is scientifically linked to extreme weather patterns, not a "circular argument."
    3. Climate Policy and Impact – While one country’s policies alone won’t solve climate change, collective global action is essential. Claiming policies do nothing ignores decades of scientific research.
    4. China’s Coal Expansion – China’s energy mix is evolving, with massive investments in renewables alongside coal. It is misleading to justify fossil fuel dependence based on China’s strategy.
    5. Economic and Political Shift – The claim that net zero is anti-prosperity ignores economic benefits of clean energy, job creation, and long-term cost savings. Major investors are still backing green initiatives. 

    The arguments against net zero ignore the long-term benefits of renewable energy, economic growth and global cooperation in addressing climate change. While challenges like energy reliability exist, technological advancements in storage and diversified grids mitigate these issues. Climate policies are not about "appeasing weather gods" but about reducing emissions for a sustainable future. Rejecting net zero would leave Australia economically and environmentally vulnerable as the world transitions to cleaner energy. 

    Still, if enough pale, stale, male presenters say it on telly, some will suck it up.  

    It’s not so much arguing against ‘net zero’ , it’s looking for answers to the bleeding obvious questions that arise around will
    we have sufficient electricity generation capacity in place to accommodate switching to net zero without a) having daily power cuts imposed on everyone before we all go out and trade our ICE vehicles for electric ones we have to plug into the national grid;  b) increasing prices and taxes to subsidise the investment to switch; c) making the UK more and more vulnerable with greater reliance on imported electricity; and d) businesses and homes having to splash out a lot of cash to buy those electric cars, batteries and whatever else, presumably by taking on a lot more debt, pushing inflation up and keeping interest rates high.

    Domestic electricity generation capacity through renewables and nuclear is set to increase though, and ICE's cars will still be on the roads a decade from now as we aren't all intending to trade them in for EV's suddenly at the end of 2029. I'm sure the plan and forecast isn't for a greater reliance on imported electricity under 'net zero,' but delivering to plan is another matter and there are no guarantees that we'll meet it, but is there such a level of uncertainty that justifies us deferring on our 'net zero' commitments now?

    I'm not sure there is, and it would send a terrible signal internationally as others look to us to set an example and might follow our lead.
    FFS, there are just 60 million of us living on a relatively small island. If the rest of World needs us to lead the way then the concept of net zero is fucked anyway.
  • swordfish said:
    Chizz said:
    1. Norway’s Electricity Exports – Norway’s move to limit electricity exports is based on domestic energy security, not a rejection of net zero policies. Many nations prioritise their own supply in times of scarcity.
    2. Wind Energy Reliability – While wind fluctuations exist, diversified renewable grids, battery storage and backup sources help mitigate intermittency. Climate change is scientifically linked to extreme weather patterns, not a "circular argument."
    3. Climate Policy and Impact – While one country’s policies alone won’t solve climate change, collective global action is essential. Claiming policies do nothing ignores decades of scientific research.
    4. China’s Coal Expansion – China’s energy mix is evolving, with massive investments in renewables alongside coal. It is misleading to justify fossil fuel dependence based on China’s strategy.
    5. Economic and Political Shift – The claim that net zero is anti-prosperity ignores economic benefits of clean energy, job creation, and long-term cost savings. Major investors are still backing green initiatives. 

    The arguments against net zero ignore the long-term benefits of renewable energy, economic growth and global cooperation in addressing climate change. While challenges like energy reliability exist, technological advancements in storage and diversified grids mitigate these issues. Climate policies are not about "appeasing weather gods" but about reducing emissions for a sustainable future. Rejecting net zero would leave Australia economically and environmentally vulnerable as the world transitions to cleaner energy. 

    Still, if enough pale, stale, male presenters say it on telly, some will suck it up.  

    It’s not so much arguing against ‘net zero’ , it’s looking for answers to the bleeding obvious questions that arise around will
    we have sufficient electricity generation capacity in place to accommodate switching to net zero without a) having daily power cuts imposed on everyone before we all go out and trade our ICE vehicles for electric ones we have to plug into the national grid;  b) increasing prices and taxes to subsidise the investment to switch; c) making the UK more and more vulnerable with greater reliance on imported electricity; and d) businesses and homes having to splash out a lot of cash to buy those electric cars, batteries and whatever else, presumably by taking on a lot more debt, pushing inflation up and keeping interest rates high.

    Domestic electricity generation capacity through renewables and nuclear is set to increase though, and ICE's cars will still be on the roads a decade from now as we aren't all intending to trade them in for EV's suddenly at the end of 2029. I'm sure the plan and forecast isn't for a greater reliance on imported electricity under 'net zero,' but delivering to plan is another matter and there are no guarantees that we'll meet it, but is there such a level of uncertainty that justifies us deferring on our 'net zero' commitments now?

    I'm not sure there is, and it would send a terrible signal internationally as others look to us to set an example and might follow our lead.
    FFS, there are just 60 million of us living on a relatively small island. If the rest of World needs us to lead the way then the concept of net zero is fucked anyway.

    They didn't do so bad following our lead with the industrial revolution though. Quick to follow us then, but I do take your point.
  • edited February 3
    Countries who are moving to renewable sources of energy will be in a much better place than those who don't, as they will have to catch up eventually.

    Those who use disparaging remarks about achieving 'net zero' don't seem to realise that keeping the status quo will cost £billions in mitigations against climate change. Extreme weather events are happening with increasing frequency and each one costs a lot of money in cleaning up, rebuilding and the impact on humans. Australia is currently experiencing severe flooding in Queensland and today Torremolinos in Spain is experiencing flash floods. 

    I posted the article from UK Fire Chiefs as this topic was discussed on BBC Breakfast this morning. The Fire Chief was saying that they were very stretched when we had the wildfires in London a couple of years ago. He also said that they are under prepared to fight wildfires in future. The following is an article from 2023 which discusses the lack of preparedness in the UK.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-66948836




  • swordfish said:
    Chizz said:
    1. Norway’s Electricity Exports – Norway’s move to limit electricity exports is based on domestic energy security, not a rejection of net zero policies. Many nations prioritise their own supply in times of scarcity.
    2. Wind Energy Reliability – While wind fluctuations exist, diversified renewable grids, battery storage and backup sources help mitigate intermittency. Climate change is scientifically linked to extreme weather patterns, not a "circular argument."
    3. Climate Policy and Impact – While one country’s policies alone won’t solve climate change, collective global action is essential. Claiming policies do nothing ignores decades of scientific research.
    4. China’s Coal Expansion – China’s energy mix is evolving, with massive investments in renewables alongside coal. It is misleading to justify fossil fuel dependence based on China’s strategy.
    5. Economic and Political Shift – The claim that net zero is anti-prosperity ignores economic benefits of clean energy, job creation, and long-term cost savings. Major investors are still backing green initiatives. 

    The arguments against net zero ignore the long-term benefits of renewable energy, economic growth and global cooperation in addressing climate change. While challenges like energy reliability exist, technological advancements in storage and diversified grids mitigate these issues. Climate policies are not about "appeasing weather gods" but about reducing emissions for a sustainable future. Rejecting net zero would leave Australia economically and environmentally vulnerable as the world transitions to cleaner energy. 

    Still, if enough pale, stale, male presenters say it on telly, some will suck it up.  

    It’s not so much arguing against ‘net zero’ , it’s looking for answers to the bleeding obvious questions that arise around will
    we have sufficient electricity generation capacity in place to accommodate switching to net zero without a) having daily power cuts imposed on everyone before we all go out and trade our ICE vehicles for electric ones we have to plug into the national grid;  b) increasing prices and taxes to subsidise the investment to switch; c) making the UK more and more vulnerable with greater reliance on imported electricity; and d) businesses and homes having to splash out a lot of cash to buy those electric cars, batteries and whatever else, presumably by taking on a lot more debt, pushing inflation up and keeping interest rates high.

    Domestic electricity generation capacity through renewables and nuclear is set to increase though, and ICE's cars will still be on the roads a decade from now as we aren't all intending to trade them in for EV's suddenly at the end of 2029. I'm sure the plan and forecast isn't for a greater reliance on imported electricity under 'net zero,' but delivering to plan is another matter and there are no guarantees that we'll meet it, but is there such a level of uncertainty that justifies us deferring on our 'net zero' commitments now?

    I'm not sure there is, and it would send a terrible signal internationally as others look to us to set an example and might follow our lead.
    FFS, there are just 60 million of us living on a relatively small island. If the rest of World needs us to lead the way then the concept of net zero is fucked anyway.
    Wait? You think our virtue signalling government won't inspire the world to copy our model of high prices and declining living standards?
  • edited February 3
    swordfish said:
    Chizz said:
    1. Norway’s Electricity Exports – Norway’s move to limit electricity exports is based on domestic energy security, not a rejection of net zero policies. Many nations prioritise their own supply in times of scarcity.
    2. Wind Energy Reliability – While wind fluctuations exist, diversified renewable grids, battery storage and backup sources help mitigate intermittency. Climate change is scientifically linked to extreme weather patterns, not a "circular argument."
    3. Climate Policy and Impact – While one country’s policies alone won’t solve climate change, collective global action is essential. Claiming policies do nothing ignores decades of scientific research.
    4. China’s Coal Expansion – China’s energy mix is evolving, with massive investments in renewables alongside coal. It is misleading to justify fossil fuel dependence based on China’s strategy.
    5. Economic and Political Shift – The claim that net zero is anti-prosperity ignores economic benefits of clean energy, job creation, and long-term cost savings. Major investors are still backing green initiatives. 

    The arguments against net zero ignore the long-term benefits of renewable energy, economic growth and global cooperation in addressing climate change. While challenges like energy reliability exist, technological advancements in storage and diversified grids mitigate these issues. Climate policies are not about "appeasing weather gods" but about reducing emissions for a sustainable future. Rejecting net zero would leave Australia economically and environmentally vulnerable as the world transitions to cleaner energy. 

    Still, if enough pale, stale, male presenters say it on telly, some will suck it up.  

    It’s not so much arguing against ‘net zero’ , it’s looking for answers to the bleeding obvious questions that arise around will
    we have sufficient electricity generation capacity in place to accommodate switching to net zero without a) having daily power cuts imposed on everyone before we all go out and trade our ICE vehicles for electric ones we have to plug into the national grid;  b) increasing prices and taxes to subsidise the investment to switch; c) making the UK more and more vulnerable with greater reliance on imported electricity; and d) businesses and homes having to splash out a lot of cash to buy those electric cars, batteries and whatever else, presumably by taking on a lot more debt, pushing inflation up and keeping interest rates high.

    Domestic electricity generation capacity through renewables and nuclear is set to increase though, and ICE's cars will still be on the roads a decade from now as we aren't all intending to trade them in for EV's suddenly at the end of 2029. I'm sure the plan and forecast isn't for a greater reliance on imported electricity under 'net zero,' but delivering to plan is another matter and there are no guarantees that we'll meet it, but is there such a level of uncertainty that justifies us deferring on our 'net zero' commitments now?

    I'm not sure there is, and it would send a terrible signal internationally as others look to us to set an example and might follow our lead.
    FFS, there are just 60 million of us living on a relatively small island. If the rest of World needs us to lead the way then the concept of net zero is fucked anyway.
    Wait? You think our virtue signalling government won't inspire the world to copy our model of high prices and declining living standards?
    It wouldn’t surprise me if this lot currently in power offer to pay the rest of world to switch to net zero…
  • Chizz said:
    1. Norway’s Electricity Exports – Norway’s move to limit electricity exports is based on domestic energy security, not a rejection of net zero policies. Many nations prioritise their own supply in times of scarcity.
    2. Wind Energy Reliability – While wind fluctuations exist, diversified renewable grids, battery storage and backup sources help mitigate intermittency. Climate change is scientifically linked to extreme weather patterns, not a "circular argument."
    3. Climate Policy and Impact – While one country’s policies alone won’t solve climate change, collective global action is essential. Claiming policies do nothing ignores decades of scientific research.
    4. China’s Coal Expansion – China’s energy mix is evolving, with massive investments in renewables alongside coal. It is misleading to justify fossil fuel dependence based on China’s strategy.
    5. Economic and Political Shift – The claim that net zero is anti-prosperity ignores economic benefits of clean energy, job creation, and long-term cost savings. Major investors are still backing green initiatives. 

    The arguments against net zero ignore the long-term benefits of renewable energy, economic growth and global cooperation in addressing climate change. While challenges like energy reliability exist, technological advancements in storage and diversified grids mitigate these issues. Climate policies are not about "appeasing weather gods" but about reducing emissions for a sustainable future. Rejecting net zero would leave Australia economically and environmentally vulnerable as the world transitions to cleaner energy. 

    Still, if enough pale, stale, male presenters say it on telly, some will suck it up.  

    It’s not so much arguing against ‘net zero’ , it’s looking for answers to the bleeding obvious questions that arise around will
    we have sufficient electricity generation capacity in place to accommodate switching to net zero without a) having daily power cuts imposed on everyone before we all go out and trade our ICE vehicles for electric ones we have to plug into the national grid;  b) increasing prices and taxes to subsidise the investment to switch; c) making the UK more and more vulnerable with greater reliance on imported electricity; and d) businesses and homes having to splash out a lot of cash to buy those electric cars, batteries and whatever else, presumably by taking on a lot more debt, pushing inflation up and keeping interest rates high.

    You haven't answered my question above - I'm not sure how there are significant costs to business or individuals? can you explain please?

    In here you talk about energy security - not having daily power cuts and vulnerability to reliance on imported electricity. What I think this is missing is that the ONLY way to improve energy security is through renewables. Any gas (or oil or coal) produced in the UK is sold on the world market either as a raw product or as energy. UK suppliers will buy from that world market. Therefore relying on gas to any extent is therefore energy insecurity. Makes us reliant on imports and subject to external shocks in world prices. Renewables have a way to get around this outdated system and we are able to make sure these whether government or private sector produced feed only into the UK grid. Therefore giving us energy security. We are also able to export renewables directly to other countries in bilateral agreements or on the world market. No one is pretending we are there yet but moving to renewables is the only way to solve that issue.

    As for prices - renewables cost 70-80% less than gas so moving towards those can only bring prices down the further we go the more pressure there will be on the regulator to update our outdated marginal pricing system which means we pay for every unit of energy as if it was the most expensive unit of gas on the market.
  • We're moving to net zero because we HAVE to, if we don't, the consequences are very severe, no country is immune. 

    Extreme weather events affected people around the globe in 2024 and while not all may be attributed to climate change, we do know that a warming world means their frequency will increase.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/articles/c1el8z2d7v8o


  • It does push up prices when the sun isn't shining, and the wind isn't blowing!

    Nuclear has always seemed like the most sensible option to me. The only reason it isn't more popular is because of the morons in the Soviet Union.
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  • swordfish said:
    swordfish said:
    Chizz said:
    1. Norway’s Electricity Exports – Norway’s move to limit electricity exports is based on domestic energy security, not a rejection of net zero policies. Many nations prioritise their own supply in times of scarcity.
    2. Wind Energy Reliability – While wind fluctuations exist, diversified renewable grids, battery storage and backup sources help mitigate intermittency. Climate change is scientifically linked to extreme weather patterns, not a "circular argument."
    3. Climate Policy and Impact – While one country’s policies alone won’t solve climate change, collective global action is essential. Claiming policies do nothing ignores decades of scientific research.
    4. China’s Coal Expansion – China’s energy mix is evolving, with massive investments in renewables alongside coal. It is misleading to justify fossil fuel dependence based on China’s strategy.
    5. Economic and Political Shift – The claim that net zero is anti-prosperity ignores economic benefits of clean energy, job creation, and long-term cost savings. Major investors are still backing green initiatives. 

    The arguments against net zero ignore the long-term benefits of renewable energy, economic growth and global cooperation in addressing climate change. While challenges like energy reliability exist, technological advancements in storage and diversified grids mitigate these issues. Climate policies are not about "appeasing weather gods" but about reducing emissions for a sustainable future. Rejecting net zero would leave Australia economically and environmentally vulnerable as the world transitions to cleaner energy. 

    Still, if enough pale, stale, male presenters say it on telly, some will suck it up.  

    It’s not so much arguing against ‘net zero’ , it’s looking for answers to the bleeding obvious questions that arise around will
    we have sufficient electricity generation capacity in place to accommodate switching to net zero without a) having daily power cuts imposed on everyone before we all go out and trade our ICE vehicles for electric ones we have to plug into the national grid;  b) increasing prices and taxes to subsidise the investment to switch; c) making the UK more and more vulnerable with greater reliance on imported electricity; and d) businesses and homes having to splash out a lot of cash to buy those electric cars, batteries and whatever else, presumably by taking on a lot more debt, pushing inflation up and keeping interest rates high.

    Domestic electricity generation capacity through renewables and nuclear is set to increase though, and ICE's cars will still be on the roads a decade from now as we aren't all intending to trade them in for EV's suddenly at the end of 2029. I'm sure the plan and forecast isn't for a greater reliance on imported electricity under 'net zero,' but delivering to plan is another matter and there are no guarantees that we'll meet it, but is there such a level of uncertainty that justifies us deferring on our 'net zero' commitments now?

    I'm not sure there is, and it would send a terrible signal internationally as others look to us to set an example and might follow our lead.
    FFS, there are just 60 million of us living on a relatively small island. If the rest of World needs us to lead the way then the concept of net zero is fucked anyway.

    They didn't do so bad following our lead with the industrial revolution though. Quick to follow us then, but I do take your point.
    Point of order:
    We proud adventurous generous Brits took the industrial revolution to the world! Johnny Foreigner didn't show up here and think "Good heavens that looks like fun, we'll do some of that when we get back to ...insert name of 'developing' nation here..."
    As for the planet's most culpable environment trashers ever doing anything to moderate their environmental destruction, dream on, they don't give a shit, won't give a shit, we'll have to keep on doing things better because we can and we should.  The fat unsanitary sociopath sat next to you on the train is gonna fart, belch drop his beer can and pick his nose regardless of you and your fellow passengers, even if you ask him to stop, he'll probably light his fag just before he gets off the train too.  We don't do those things cos we're not scum
  • Me when people on this thread claim that renewables push up prices without any evidence or ability to back up that claim.


    …when people think onshore and offshore wind farms and solar panels don’t cost anything to make, install and connect to the national grid without any need for infrastructure or sweeteners from the government (ie the taxpayer) and that they last forever, which in turn makes renewable energy cheap as chips…
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  • Me when people on this thread claim that renewables push up prices without any evidence or ability to back up that claim.


    …when people think onshore and offshore wind farms and solar panels don’t cost anything to make, install and connect to the national grid without any need for infrastructure or sweeteners from the government (ie the taxpayer) and that they last forever, which in turn makes renewable energy cheap as chips…
    As Stig has posted above, why do you say people think any of that? They don't. It would be absolutely ludicrous to think anybody believed that were true. 

    It's absolutely impossible to discuss this in any seriousness when you make posts like that. 
    Genuinely can't get my head around the anti renewables mindset. 

    Even when you take out the climate impacts (we absolutely shouldn't but let's do it for a second). Its still objectively better for energy security, less reliant on the world market, less susceptible to external shocks or geopolitical events, better for air quality and cheaper. 

    The only thing it's not better for is the profits of the fossil fuel industry. And obviously I'm aware of their riches, the power that brings, the influence over politicians and the media they have. But apply the smallest amount of critical thought and even if you were a climate change denier I still can't see how anyone other than a massive investor in fossil fuels would be against the transition. 
    Yep.

    The only arguments against renewables that I can see any kind of logic to are those based on vested interests I.e. investments/NIMBYs. 

    Other than that, it's "just" emotional/illogical.

    Oh... and I am finally realising that there is some kind of semi coherent conspiracy style thinking that a hazy global elite is manipulating everybody into believing that there is a climate crisis when there isn't. Their objective? To somehow enslave us all in the name of saving the world and instal harsh living conditions.  Oh.. and they also want to increase mass migration, but I forget why that is supposed to be happening as part of it all. I try and find reasons to take it seriously and give it a fair crack with an open mind...but... it just doesn't stack up. 
  • Me when people on this thread claim that renewables push up prices without any evidence or ability to back up that claim.


    …when people think onshore and offshore wind farms and solar panels don’t cost anything to make, install and connect to the national grid without any need for infrastructure or sweeteners from the government (ie the taxpayer) and that they last forever, which in turn makes renewable energy cheap as chips…
    As Stig has posted above, why do you say people think any of that? They don't. It would be absolutely ludicrous to think anybody believed that were true. 

    It's absolutely impossible to discuss this in any seriousness when you make posts like that. 
    Genuinely can't get my head around the anti renewables mindset. 

    Even when you take out the climate impacts (we absolutely shouldn't but let's do it for a second). Its still objectively better for energy security, less reliant on the world market, less susceptible to external shocks or geopolitical events, better for air quality and cheaper. 

    The only thing it's not better for is the profits of the fossil fuel industry. And obviously I'm aware of their riches, the power that brings, the influence over politicians and the media they have. But apply the smallest amount of critical thought and even if you were a climate change denier I still can't see how anyone other than a massive investor in fossil fuels would be against the transition. 
    Surely if it’s cheaper to produce and can be sold at the same price, these companies should be investing like crazy into renewables. 
  • edited February 4
    Me when people on this thread claim that renewables push up prices without any evidence or ability to back up that claim.


    …when people think onshore and offshore wind farms and solar panels don’t cost anything to make, install and connect to the national grid without any need for infrastructure or sweeteners from the government (ie the taxpayer) and that they last forever, which in turn makes renewable energy cheap as chips…
    As Stig has posted above, why do you say people think any of that? They don't. It would be absolutely ludicrous to think anybody believed that were true. 

    It's absolutely impossible to discuss this in any seriousness when you make posts like that. 
    Genuinely can't get my head around the anti renewables mindset. 

    Even when you take out the climate impacts (we absolutely shouldn't but let's do it for a second). Its still objectively better for energy security, less reliant on the world market, less susceptible to external shocks or geopolitical events, better for air quality and cheaper. 

    The only thing it's not better for is the profits of the fossil fuel industry. And obviously I'm aware of their riches, the power that brings, the influence over politicians and the media they have. But apply the smallest amount of critical thought and even if you were a climate change denier I still can't see how anyone other than a massive investor in fossil fuels would be against the transition. 
    Surely if it’s cheaper to produce and can be sold at the same price, these companies should be investing like crazy into renewables. 
    Well yes and no. To an extent they have been but they will be well aware of the fine line they are treading. Push things too far will mean the government/regulator has no option but to change the pricing mechanism and thus ending the gravy train. This is in my view why we have seen a slow down in private sector investment in the last year or 2 because the pricing mechanism started to make the news. I remember when there were a few days in a row of completely renewables plus nuclear energy there were headlines asking why we were still paying for it as gas. Current government has chosen to fill the investment gap themselves which I'm not against but I think changing or at least reviewing and committing to changing the pricing mechanism at a certain threshold will stimulate private sector investment as firms will want to be in the best position when the change comes in and will want to lower their cost base.

    These firms have zero altruistic responsibility and so the energy security/susceptibility to external shocks benefits are of no interest to them in the slightest.
  • edited February 4

    If people think the green transition is costing them, then perhaps they'll be open to other solutions. Here's one, but on balance, I think sticking to 'net zero' plans might prove cheaper. Scientists say sprinkling diamond dust into the sky could offset almost all of climate change so far — but it'll cost $175 trillion | Live Science

    Interesting Panorama last night with the debate how to deliver green electricity to homes, the government, being mindful of the infrastructure costs and wanting to minimise them, proposing to use pylons onshore and multiple points to bring offshore wind ashore, environmentalists concerned on the landscape effect but supportive of 'net zero', so wanting them to look at more expensive alternatives. Which should it be, or a combination, or neither and give up?

  • swordfish said:

    If people think the green transition is costing them, then perhaps they'll be open to other solutions. Here's one, but on balance, I think sticking to 'net zero' plans might prove cheaper. Scientists say sprinkling diamond dust into the sky could offset almost all of climate change so far — but it'll cost $175 trillion | Live Science

    Interesting Panorama last night with the debate how to deliver green electricity to homes, the government, being mindful of the infrastructure costs and wanting to minimise them, proposing to use pylons onshore and multiple points to bring offshore wind ashore, environmentalists concerned on the landscape effect but supportive of 'net zero', so wanting them to look at more expensive alternatives. Which should it be, or a combination, or neither and give up?

    I think we need a slight rethink on the concept of a grid. We will need some form of national grid for the large scale production of renewables as well as Nuclear and any imports. but see this being complemented by localised connected "grids" whereby councils, other organisations set up for this, businesses and individuals with batteries can be connected, can charge batteries (and vehicles) from the national grid when production is high and then discharge it locally when required to smooth out peaks and troughs in large scale production. Can be managed through a flexible incentives scheme - reduced prices to charge batteries and vehicles when production is high. These localised grids will also have their own small scale production - solar and mini home wind turbines etc. 

    Does rely on solid state batteries but am hopeful for some big news on those this year.
  • edited February 4
    swordfish said:

    If people think the green transition is costing them, then perhaps they'll be open to other solutions. Here's one, but on balance, I think sticking to 'net zero' plans might prove cheaper. Scientists say sprinkling diamond dust into the sky could offset almost all of climate change so far — but it'll cost $175 trillion | Live Science

    Interesting Panorama last night with the debate how to deliver green electricity to homes, the government, being mindful of the infrastructure costs and wanting to minimise them, proposing to use pylons onshore and multiple points to bring offshore wind ashore, environmentalists concerned on the landscape effect but supportive of 'net zero', so wanting them to look at more expensive alternatives. Which should it be, or a combination, or neither and give up?

    I think we need a slight rethink on the concept of a grid. We will need some form of national grid for the large scale production of renewables as well as Nuclear and any imports. but see this being complemented by localised connected "grids" whereby councils, other organisations set up for this, businesses and individuals with batteries can be connected, can charge batteries (and vehicles) from the national grid when production is high and then discharge it locally when required to smooth out peaks and troughs in large scale production. Can be managed through a flexible incentives scheme - reduced prices to charge batteries and vehicles when production is high. These localised grids will also have their own small scale production - solar and mini home wind turbines etc. 

    Does rely on solid state batteries but am hopeful for some big news on those this year.
    The game-changing breakthrough will come when the development of "wireless power" via Microwave Power Transmission or Laser Power Transmission reaches mass market status.  

    Wireless power transfer (WPT) is the transmission of electrical energy without the use of physical connectors or wires. Instead of traditional power lines, energy is transferred using electromagnetic fields, radio frequency waves or resonant inductive coupling. This technology has the potential to power electronic devices, electric vehicles, and even entire infrastructure systems remotely. 

    There are several methods of wireless power transmission, including:
    1. Inductive Coupling – Uses coils to transfer power over short distances, commonly found in wireless charging pads for smartphones.
    2. Resonant Inductive Coupling – Extends the range of inductive charging by using tuned resonance between coils, useful for electric vehicle charging.
    3. Microwave Power Transmission – Converts electricity into microwaves, transmits them over long distances, and then converts them back into electricity at the receiving end.
    4. Laser Power Transmission – Uses laser beams to send energy to photovoltaic cells, suitable for space-based or long-range applications.

    Wireless power technology has made significant advancements in recent years:
    - Short-range wireless charging is already commercialised (e.g., Qi wireless charging for smartphones and electric toothbrushes).
    - Mid-range solutions like WiTricity’s magnetic resonance charging are emerging, making electric vehicle (EV) charging "more seamless".
    - Long-range WPT is in the experimental and pilot stage, with companies like *Emrod* developing microwave-based power beaming for remote locations.
    - Space-based solar power (SBSP) is being explored by agencies like NASA, the European Space Agency (ESA) and China, with prototype satellites demonstrating early feasibility. 
  • Me when people on this thread claim that renewables push up prices without any evidence or ability to back up that claim.


    …when people think onshore and offshore wind farms and solar panels don’t cost anything to make, install and connect to the national grid without any need for infrastructure or sweeteners from the government (ie the taxpayer) and that they last forever, which in turn makes renewable energy cheap as chips…
    As Stig has posted above, why do you say people think any of that? They don't. It would be absolutely ludicrous to think anybody believed that were true. 

    It's absolutely impossible to discuss this in any seriousness when you make posts like that. 
    Genuinely can't get my head around the anti renewables mindset. 

    Even when you take out the climate impacts (we absolutely shouldn't but let's do it for a second). Its still objectively better for energy security, less reliant on the world market, less susceptible to external shocks or geopolitical events, better for air quality and cheaper. 

    The only thing it's not better for is the profits of the fossil fuel industry. And obviously I'm aware of their riches, the power that brings, the influence over politicians and the media they have. But apply the smallest amount of critical thought and even if you were a climate change denier I still can't see how anyone other than a massive investor in fossil fuels would be against the transition. 
    Yep.

    The only arguments against renewables that I can see any kind of logic to are those based on vested interests I.e. investments/NIMBYs. 

    Other than that, it's "just" emotional/illogical.

    Oh... and I am finally realising that there is some kind of semi coherent conspiracy style thinking that a hazy global elite is manipulating everybody into believing that there is a climate crisis when there isn't. Their objective? To somehow enslave us all in the name of saving the world and instal harsh living conditions.  Oh.. and they also want to increase mass migration, but I forget why that is supposed to be happening as part of it all. I try and find reasons to take it seriously and give it a fair crack with an open mind...but... it just doesn't stack up. 
    I know it's pointless trying to find any semblance of coherence of thought in conspiracy theories - they're rooted, after all, in the conclusion that anything you say to refute them is what 'they' (ie: the unseen controlling power) want you to say - but I've always found it especially lunatic to suggest that the Climate Change Cabal are lying about climate change to increase migration... When preventing man made climate change is the very thing that is likely to stem the immigration flow. 🤪
    I have a (conspiracy?) theory that a lot of these conspiracy theories are started by petrochemical companies who are on course to lose out on trillions. There was a crash in Orpington recently where a car pulled out on a new all electric 358 bus. Completely the car driver's fault and an area which is prone to crashes (including the death of a driver of a petrol bus) yet plenty of laughing emojis on facebook as an electric bus crashed. The internet was a step to far for some people.
  • Chizz said:
    swordfish said:

    If people think the green transition is costing them, then perhaps they'll be open to other solutions. Here's one, but on balance, I think sticking to 'net zero' plans might prove cheaper. Scientists say sprinkling diamond dust into the sky could offset almost all of climate change so far — but it'll cost $175 trillion | Live Science

    Interesting Panorama last night with the debate how to deliver green electricity to homes, the government, being mindful of the infrastructure costs and wanting to minimise them, proposing to use pylons onshore and multiple points to bring offshore wind ashore, environmentalists concerned on the landscape effect but supportive of 'net zero', so wanting them to look at more expensive alternatives. Which should it be, or a combination, or neither and give up?

    I think we need a slight rethink on the concept of a grid. We will need some form of national grid for the large scale production of renewables as well as Nuclear and any imports. but see this being complemented by localised connected "grids" whereby councils, other organisations set up for this, businesses and individuals with batteries can be connected, can charge batteries (and vehicles) from the national grid when production is high and then discharge it locally when required to smooth out peaks and troughs in large scale production. Can be managed through a flexible incentives scheme - reduced prices to charge batteries and vehicles when production is high. These localised grids will also have their own small scale production - solar and mini home wind turbines etc. 

    Does rely on solid state batteries but am hopeful for some big news on those this year.
    The game-changing breakthrough will come when the development of "wireless power" via Microwave Power Transmission or Laser Power Transmission reaches mass market status.  

    Wireless power transfer (WPT) is the transmission of electrical energy without the use of physical connectors or wires. Instead of traditional power lines, energy is transferred using electromagnetic fields, radio frequency waves or resonant inductive coupling. This technology has the potential to power electronic devices, electric vehicles, and even entire infrastructure systems remotely. 

    There are several methods of wireless power transmission, including:
    1. Inductive Coupling – Uses coils to transfer power over short distances, commonly found in wireless charging pads for smartphones.
    2. Resonant Inductive Coupling – Extends the range of inductive charging by using tuned resonance between coils, useful for electric vehicle charging.
    3. Microwave Power Transmission – Converts electricity into microwaves, transmits them over long distances, and then converts them back into electricity at the receiving end.
    4. Laser Power Transmission – Uses laser beams to send energy to photovoltaic cells, suitable for space-based or long-range applications.

    Wireless power technology has made significant advancements in recent years:
    - Short-range wireless charging is already commercialised (e.g., Qi wireless charging for smartphones and electric toothbrushes).
    - Mid-range solutions like WiTricity’s magnetic resonance charging are emerging, making electric vehicle (EV) charging "more seamless".
    - Long-range WPT is in the experimental and pilot stage, with companies like *Emrod* developing microwave-based power beaming for remote locations.
    - Space-based solar power (SBSP) is being explored by agencies like NASA, the European Space Agency (ESA) and China, with prototype satellites demonstrating early feasibility. 
    Havent heard of this tech before! Interesting. How close to being implementable is it?
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