Not saying people are wrong, it’s just depressing.
We have a sliver of hope this season, because there’s only one really good team in the league, but it’s just a sliver. As it stands there are probably five or six better than us (if we avoid too many injuries). All I can hope is that we improve through the season, and we have a good January window, but I’m not holding my breath.
it’s always been obvious what is needed - huge levels of investment.
And the pay off is unlikely and many many years away.
So an investor gives it a crack, it fails, they then give it another less aggressive spend, it fails again.
Then it feels like good money after bad and they cut costs and look for an exit.
ad Infinitum.
We need a genius and some good money or ludicrous talent coming through the ranks that we can use before they are sold.
I agree but in the scheme of things,. We really just need to win football matches. And in league one it is possible without a huge pot of money.
It takes an open mind approach and the ability to find the right people. One of Sandgaards big mistakes is a quench for a 'style of play'
It really isn't necessary. At this level you just need to win football matches. By fair or foul, Pretty or messy, Amazing or boring. It really doesn't matter. Surround yourself with the right people who know what they are doing. Get the right type of player in and consistently win football matches.
Not saying people are wrong, it’s just depressing.
We have a sliver of hope this season, because there’s only one really good team in the league, but it’s just a sliver. As it stands there are probably five or six better than us (if we avoid too many injuries). All I can hope is that we improve through the season, and we have a good January window, but I’m not holding my breath.
For me, we don’t know if there’s 5 or 6 that are better than us. It could be 10 or 11. I’m not sure it’s anymore than that, but I do think we fall into that way of thinking a bit too much these days. I appreciate you said ‘probably’ 5 or 6.
There’s nothing at the moment for me that says we aren’t firmly stuck in a mini league with the likes of Fleetwood, Cambridge, Accrington and the Lincoln’s of this world.
2pts off of FGR and Fleetwood - that’s pure, unadulterated mediocrity. We can look deeper as well. Kirk being dropped for the last 2 games is a little chink in the workings of building a settled team. Stockley being dropped. Morgan as well. I appreciate it takes a while to find your best XI, but I have a feeling, like Adkins last year, BG is now starting to question how he gets a settled team. It’s nowhere near as bad as that, but it’s beginning to look like plan A with Stockley up top isn’t going to be the one to do it, and we’re now working on a plan B.
I just can’t see it myself and I know I’m adding to the depression, but this is the reality for me
In the grand scheme of things I think the financial commitment level from the owner is largely acceptable and proportionate in relation to current status and how fans are supporting the club. ie. we are not fan wise Sheffield Wednesday and being run on a Fleetwood budget.
What is where we are floundering is in strategy and the running of the club. Those things are much more easily fixable than finding new / additional investment.
Lots of clubs have got out of League One into the Championship in recent years without the need of owners blowing the budget out the water. We need to become one of them, but something has to change as it’s not currently working.
And now more than ever I’m convinced we need a good CEO who is given free reign to run the club. I just can’t see it happening but surely that’s better than Sandgaard losing further millions?
it’s always been obvious what is needed - huge levels of investment.
And the pay off is unlikely and many many years away.
So an investor gives it a crack, it fails, they then give it another less aggressive spend, it fails again.
Then it feels like good money after bad and they cut costs and look for an exit.
ad Infinitum.
We need a genius and some good money or ludicrous talent coming through the ranks that we can use before they are sold.
I agree but in the scheme of things,. We really just need to win football matches. And in league one it is possible without a huge pot of money.
It takes an open mind approach and the ability to find the right people. One of Sandgaards big mistakes is a quench for a 'style of play'
It really isn't necessary. At this level you just need to win football matches. By fair or foul, Pretty or messy, Amazing or boring. It really doesn't matter. Surround yourself with the right people who know what they are doing. Get the right type of player in and consistently win football matches.
I think style of play point is overdone. Your second paragraph is the initial route TS took, Adkins had experience getting promoted and wasn’t known for a specific style of play. We tried to put together a squad around a 4-3-3 with no thought about how it would fit together. Better considering the style - how we’d defend, create and score would have benefitted recruitment that summer.
Short term just finding a way to win games makes sense, but any sensible owner looking beyond that is going to consider style of play as part of their vision for the club.
It helps you sign better players as many clubs higher up want them to fit that modern style of playing from the back, keeping possession and pressing high.
It means you don’t need to rebuild the squad every time a new manager comes in.
You can also have a shortlist of potential managers should you need to bring one in.
Recruitment is focussed on a style so you can build up lists of potential short and medium term signings.
You can align your style with your academy.
We can debate exactly what attractive or exciting football is but better football when combined with winning games will sell more tickets.
I think TS talking about it frustrates fans as it looks like interference, but for me it was a mistake was not having a style of play from the start. There was no logic in signing Stockley, Watson, Gunter, Arter etc while wanting an energetic pressing side who could pass and move.
Most have now gone but we paid fees for the likes of Stockley and Lavelle who don’t fit the style. That money could have been much better spent. Stockley was good last season and Lavelle decent, but we’ve spoken plenty about how much better this team could be with the right striker and partner for O’Connell.
For me having a style in mind as part of the wider longer term vision is the right way to go, but I don’t have confidence that TS is an owner who can achieve the vision.
I don't agree totally. Money helps but you can be careful how you spend it and have a vision that everybody buys into. Luton are an example of that. The problem with Sandgaard is he threw too much money at it in the beginning and the reason it was too much is that he is throwing too little at it now. He didn't throw the money at it in a sensible and sustainable way and I felt that from the early days.
You don't need to ask why we signed Schwartz, we all know. Kirk was desperate and Aneke was plain stupid. We had a team that just missed out on the play offs and we could have built on that. No the fool decides he wants to change things. The problem with Adkins and to some extent Garner is they sign up to changing things when they have the interview. It is harder when you do so to change tack if it is needed. Adkins clearly felt he couldn't. Garner probably feels he has to make it work and there is a lot of responsibility on his shoulders.
In the grand scheme of things I think the financial commitment level from the owner is largely acceptable and proportionate in relation to current status and how fans are supporting the club. ie. we are not fan wise Sheffield Wednesday and being run on a Fleetwood budget.
What is where we are floundering is in strategy and the running of the club. Those things are much more easily fixable than finding new / additional investment.
Lots of clubs have got out of League One into the Championship in recent years without the need of owners blowing the budget out the water. We need to become one of them, but something has to change as it’s not currently working.
And now more than ever I’m convinced we need a good CEO who is given free reign to run the club. I just can’t see it happening but surely that’s better than Sandgaard losing further millions?
I think the problem is that he’s looking at saving thousands by reducing staff and general overheads, rather than thinking about spending extra thousands in search of the potential millions.
I imagine our running costs, outside of wages, are higher than those of many of our rivals due to the rent paid to RD, and the overheads incurred in the running and maintenance of a larger than average stadium in London.
Certainly agree that we need a CEO, but Sandgaard has gone on record saying he’s stubborn.
If he was clueless when he was spending money, why should we expect him to be any less so when he is spending less? The problem is when you spend less and are clueless it is harder to paper over the cracks.
And now more than ever I’m convinced we need a good CEO who is given free reign to run the club.
I'm not convinced good CEO'S exist without a good owner . The CEO may organise the infrastructure to a point and save a few bob here and there but I'm not sure how they can really affect the first team, playing well, unless the CEO and owner are in sync with each other and I think those relationships only happen over the course of time as the pair get to know each other. Would a Varney or Kavanagh be able to change Sandgaard in to not being a stubborn bellend
Unfortunately even if he found and employed a good CEO he would sack them the following month when the financials came back and after two un-sold-out home games(vs Chippenham town and AFC Sprocket)…
I think Sandgaard needs a good CEO because he knows nothing about the game, but he could manage without one if he did. But if he did, he would probably have one! It is a good point that a CEO who simply tries to keep Sandgaard happy would be as bad as not having one.
And now more than ever I’m convinced we need a good CEO who is given free reign to run the club.
I'm not convinced good CEO'S exist without a good owner . The CEO may organise the infrastructure to a point and save a few bob here and there but I'm not sure how they can really affect the first team, playing well, unless the CEO and owner are in sync with each other and I think those relationships only happen over the course of time as the pair get to know each other. Would a Varney or Kavanagh be able to change Sandgaard in to not being a stubborn bellend
Agree with this, it’s what we need but from the outside looking in, a good CEO couldn’t operate with him. They’d be waiting for the next intervention.
I’ve been very much a wait and see person on this, but for me the evidence I’m seeing doesn’t bode well.
I feel like we are back in the Roland days of it being a simple entertainment event, where if you hang enough baubles on the game they are suddenly going to get a load of commercial revenue that every other mug is missing.
I fear once it becomes clear to TS this isn’t working, there’ll be a rush to get out. Leaving us open to a mob like the previous criminals.
It seems that TS goals were two fold. Gain promotion and /or create a product so exciting that people will come from far and wide to witness it. Well he's attempted to create the later, but was misguided as to how much it would cost and what quality would be needed to achieve it. Its all well and good playing attack, attack, attack, but we needed players professionally capable of doing such. If we had the quality, then it's more likely the product would achieve his aim.
YOU get what YOU paid for Thomas, unfortunately as things stand, the fans DO NOT.
He failed to know a football basic that even some professionals don't seem to know incredibly. maybe becase it is too simple and they try to be too clever. You need goals in your team. Yes, you can find examples where players with poor goal scoring records improve but they are few and far between. So however you play, if you have too many non-goalscorers in your team and you can't rely on a prolific striker or strikers to bail them out you will draw and lose too many.
I believe that there is very little hope we will ever play at a higher level. I have pretty well stopped worrying about whether we will be anything other than a 3rd division club. I hope we don't become a 4th division club. The competition is significantly more challenging and the costs massively higher than they were when Curbs and Gritt led us to the prem, twice, and the chances of getting and staying there are diminishingly small. The stadium is not sustainable going forward and I think we will be at a smaller ground in the not too distant future.
Christ, now I’m depressed!
I think there’s always hope, at least in the short term, but I have to admit that we feel* further away from the Championship/second tier than we ever have in my lifetime.
*I don’t know if we are further from promotion statistically, mathematically or any other objective measurement you care to use, I just have absolutely no belief that there’s a chance of promotion any time soon.
Just feels like we need so much to be able to get into the Championship. Everything needs to come together perfectly, players and management as well as other clubs in the league not being as strong. I do think if we had got Sangaard the season we got promoted into the Championship rather the season after, we'd all feel a lot differently about him (positively)
I disagree. I think they would of not respected the championship either and thought it would be easy peasey
I recall a quote by Sandgasrd on our relegation, something like it was not necessarily a bad thing. I think he said it was down to the need to invest inthe playing side and it was better to do it in L1.
It can be a good thing if you have a young up and coming team and you want to build them up as a team. I don't see how we wil ever be that though because whilst it can be argued we have some great prospects coming up, we will sell those and keep the bang average ones.
Not saying people are wrong, it’s just depressing.
We have a sliver of hope this season, because there’s only one really good team in the league, but it’s just a sliver. As it stands there are probably five or six better than us (if we avoid too many injuries). All I can hope is that we improve through the season, and we have a good January window, but I’m not holding my breath.
Don't really understand the logic of your post JS.
There are two really good teams based on form so far this season as they are both in the top two, both on the same points and are both undefeated this season. Not sure how you have managed to split them?
"As it stands" is an easy one because the league table reflects "as it stands" and as things do stand, we are 14th meaning there are 13 teams better than us "as it stands"
It is too early to let the table tell us that. Maybe in a month or two.... or three! personally, and it is not a certainty, but I think Sheffield Wednesday will win the league comfortably.
It is too early to let the table tell us that. Maybe in a month or two.... or three! personally, and it is not a certainty, but I think Sheffield Wednesday will win the league comfortably.
For most of our game up there, we dominated. Frustrating how good this team could have been.
Not saying people are wrong, it’s just depressing.
We have a sliver of hope this season, because there’s only one really good team in the league, but it’s just a sliver. As it stands there are probably five or six better than us (if we avoid too many injuries). All I can hope is that we improve through the season, and we have a good January window, but I’m not holding my breath.
Don't really understand the logic of your post JS.
There are two really good teams based on form so far this season as they are both in the top two, both on the same points and are both undefeated this season. Not sure how you have managed to split them?
"As it stands" is an easy one because the league table reflects "as it stands" and as things do stand, we are 14th meaning there are 13 teams better than us "as it stands"
I don’t think you can base everything on league positions at this stage of the season (9 games played), Mike.
Portsmouth tend to fade, and haven’t had the hardest start to the season in terms of fixtures.
If you watch Ipswich they seem to have started this season in the way that they ended the last one, playing quality football.
There’s a reason Ipswich are 5/4 for the title, and Portsmouth are 13/2. Ipswich are imho a good bet for the title, whereas I believe Portsmouth are more likely to be playoff contenders, unless they go on one of their losing streaks.
Charlton are 40/1 (joint 8th favourites) for the title. I’m saying there are probably five or six better teams than us in the league if we avoid injuries, but obviously we won’t. The bookies know that.
It is too early to let the table tell us that. Maybe in a month or two.... or three! personally, and it is not a certainty, but I think Sheffield Wednesday will win the league comfortably.
Get your money on Muttley. They’re 7/2 second favourites. Not a bad price.
It is too early to let the table tell us that. Maybe in a month or two.... or three! personally, and it is not a certainty, but I think Sheffield Wednesday will win the league comfortably.
I understand that the Chansiri family have pumped over £200M into the Club so far. You have to think they need to be promoted this season as I'm unsure how long they can sustain the scale of losses they incur year on year, £(24)M for season 19/20, £(25)M 20/21 in the Championship. Figures for 21/22 in L1 are yet to be published.
Although they're hugely indebted to their owners, I don't believe they're currently under investigation for more regulation breaches, so they should be a safe bet as they won't be having any more points deductions.
Not saying people are wrong, it’s just depressing.
We have a sliver of hope this season, because there’s only one really good team in the league, but it’s just a sliver. As it stands there are probably five or six better than us (if we avoid too many injuries). All I can hope is that we improve through the season, and we have a good January window, but I’m not holding my breath.
Don't really understand the logic of your post JS.
There are two really good teams based on form so far this season as they are both in the top two, both on the same points and are both undefeated this season. Not sure how you have managed to split them?
"As it stands" is an easy one because the league table reflects "as it stands" and as things do stand, we are 14th meaning there are 13 teams better than us "as it stands"
I don’t think you can base everything on league positions at this stage of the season (9 games played), Mike.
Portsmouth tend to fade, and haven’t had the hardest start to the season in terms of fixtures.
If you watch Ipswich they seem to have started this season in the way that they ended the last one, playing quality football.
There’s a reason Ipswich are 5/4 for the title, and Portsmouth are 13/2. Ipswich are imho a good bet for the title, whereas I believe Portsmouth are more likely to be playoff contenders, unless they go on one of their losing streaks.
Charlton are 40/1 (joint 8th favourites) for the title. I’m saying there are probably five or six better teams than us in the league if we avoid injuries, but obviously we won’t. The bookies know that.
Charlton are 66/1 10th favourites on Skybet. This means if you place £10 on Charlton to win the title you lose £10.
It is too early to let the table tell us that. Maybe in a month or two.... or three! personally, and it is not a certainty, but I think Sheffield Wednesday will win the league comfortably.
Get your money on Muttley. They’re 7/2 second favourites. Not a bad price.
Ipswich look a better team to me... I have both to finish top 6 in my pre season accy along with Man City winning the PL but sadly the 4th was Millwall top half...!
It seems that TS goals were two fold. Gain promotion and /or create a product so exciting that people will come from far and wide to witness it. Well he's attempted to create the later, but was misguided as to how much it would cost and what quality would be needed to achieve it. Its all well and good playing attack, attack, attack, but we needed players professionally capable of doing such. If we had the quality, then it's more likely the product would achieve his aim.
YOU get what YOU paid for Thomas, unfortunately as things stand, the fans DO NOT.
I think you're right, but his second aim may have (originally?) been a little broader that that: To create a tv channel that would pick up viewers from countries too distant for people to travel. That's why we have the professionalism of Scott Minto whilst other clubs at our level have nothing close.
It's a strategy based on a false reading of reality though. Sure there's a small percentage of people who are so keen to watch football that they'll tune in seven days a week to watch live matches with no need at all to be followers of one of the participating teams. Taken globally that small percentage may well number into the millions. The trouble is, that audience is so well catered for with top flight football from around the world, they rarely need to drop their sights as low as Championship, let alone League One, level. The only people interested in watching Charlton are, and probably always will be, Charlton fans.
It is too early to let the table tell us that. Maybe in a month or two.... or three! personally, and it is not a certainty, but I think Sheffield Wednesday will win the league comfortably.
Get your money on Muttley. They’re 7/2 second favourites. Not a bad price.
Ipswich look a better team to me... I have both to finish top 6 in my pre season accy along with Man City winning the PL but sadly the 4th was Millwall top half...!
Not saying people are wrong, it’s just depressing.
We have a sliver of hope this season, because there’s only one really good team in the league, but it’s just a sliver. As it stands there are probably five or six better than us (if we avoid too many injuries). All I can hope is that we improve through the season, and we have a good January window, but I’m not holding my breath.
Don't really understand the logic of your post JS.
There are two really good teams based on form so far this season as they are both in the top two, both on the same points and are both undefeated this season. Not sure how you have managed to split them?
"As it stands" is an easy one because the league table reflects "as it stands" and as things do stand, we are 14th meaning there are 13 teams better than us "as it stands"
I don’t think you can base everything on league positions at this stage of the season (9 games played), Mike.
Portsmouth tend to fade, and haven’t had the hardest start to the season in terms of fixtures.
If you watch Ipswich they seem to have started this season in the way that they ended the last one, playing quality football.
There’s a reason Ipswich are 5/4 for the title, and Portsmouth are 13/2. Ipswich are imho a good bet for the title, whereas I believe Portsmouth are more likely to be playoff contenders, unless they go on one of their losing streaks.
Charlton are 40/1 (joint 8th favourites) for the title. I’m saying there are probably five or six better teams than us in the league if we avoid injuries, but obviously we won’t. The bookies know that.
You were the one that quoted “as it stands” so the table after nine games shows exactly as it stands.
No worries going round in circles here and to be honest I don’t give that much of a toss to debate it
I think it is now too late to appoint a CEO capable enough to run the business and turn the ship around with TS’ current budget setting/limitations in mind. An experienced CEO will cost what c£250k-£1m, inclusive of performance related bonus? That will be unpalatable for TS when pursuing a break even (or even 50% deficit closure year one) strategy and all the while believing he can be owner and run the business effectively himself… Only a reality bite will help turn this unwelcome situation around, just a question of how long until the teeth sink in?
Sandguard is an idiot. He had a problem and he chose the wrong pathway for the required solution.
It is completely understandable that he may feel rather shitty whenever checking his finances of losses. That's what we can at least acknowledge.
It took him time to discover he doesn't care enough about the club for what it is, in itself. Why would he have natural love for Charlton? He didn't support us before his purchase and he knows a minimal amount about football in general.
You have to weather the storm in the correct appropriate way.
He would have recieved the reward he is looking for if he helped Charlton push for promotion to the championship and we at least stayed in that division.
I actually hate the bloke more than Duchâtelet. At least the Belgian cretin didn't try to disguise his views, and what he was doing; or the fact that he was a clueless, egotistical twat.
Comments
It takes an open mind approach and the ability to find the right people. One of Sandgaards big mistakes is a quench for a 'style of play'
There’s nothing at the moment for me that says we aren’t firmly stuck in a mini league with the likes of Fleetwood, Cambridge, Accrington and the Lincoln’s of this world.
I just can’t see it myself and I know I’m adding to the depression, but this is the reality for me
What is where we are floundering is in strategy and the running of the club. Those things are much more easily fixable than finding new / additional investment.
Short term just finding a way to win games makes sense, but any sensible owner looking beyond that is going to consider style of play as part of their vision for the club.
It helps you sign better players as many clubs higher up want them to fit that modern style of playing from the back, keeping possession and pressing high.
It means you don’t need to rebuild the squad every time a new manager comes in.
You can also have a shortlist of potential managers should you need to bring one in.
You can align your style with your academy.
We can debate exactly what attractive or exciting football is but better football when combined with winning games will sell more tickets.
I think TS talking about it frustrates fans as it looks like interference, but for me it was a mistake was not having a style of play from the start. There was no logic in signing Stockley, Watson, Gunter, Arter etc while wanting an energetic pressing side who could pass and move.
Most have now gone but we paid fees for the likes of Stockley and Lavelle who don’t fit the style. That money could have been much better spent. Stockley was good last season and Lavelle decent, but we’ve spoken plenty about how much better this team could be with the right striker and partner for O’Connell.
For me having a style in mind as part of the wider longer term vision is the right way to go, but I don’t have confidence that TS is an owner who can achieve the vision.
You don't need to ask why we signed Schwartz, we all know. Kirk was desperate and Aneke was plain stupid. We had a team that just missed out on the play offs and we could have built on that. No the fool decides he wants to change things. The problem with Adkins and to some extent Garner is they sign up to changing things when they have the interview. It is harder when you do so to change tack if it is needed. Adkins clearly felt he couldn't. Garner probably feels he has to make it work and there is a lot of responsibility on his shoulders.
The CEO may organise the infrastructure to a point and save a few bob here and there but I'm not sure how they can really affect the first team, playing well, unless the CEO and owner are in sync with each other and I think those relationships only happen over the course of time as the pair get to know each other.
Would a Varney or Kavanagh be able to change Sandgaard in to not being a stubborn bellend
YOU get what YOU paid for Thomas, unfortunately as things stand, the fans DO NOT.
Apologies if I have got that totally wrong!
There are two really good teams based on form so far this season as they are both in the top two, both on the same points and are both undefeated this season. Not sure how you have managed to split them?
"As it stands" is an easy one because the league table reflects "as it stands" and as things do stand, we are 14th meaning there are 13 teams better than us "as it stands"
Although they're hugely indebted to their owners, I don't believe they're currently under investigation for more regulation breaches, so they should be a safe bet as they won't be having any more points deductions.
This means if you place £10 on Charlton to win the title you lose £10.
It's a strategy based on a false reading of reality though. Sure there's a small percentage of people who are so keen to watch football that they'll tune in seven days a week to watch live matches with no need at all to be followers of one of the participating teams. Taken globally that small percentage may well number into the millions. The trouble is, that audience is so well catered for with top flight football from around the world, they rarely need to drop their sights as low as Championship, let alone League One, level. The only people interested in watching Charlton are, and probably always will be, Charlton fans.
It is completely understandable that he may feel rather shitty whenever checking his finances of losses. That's what we can at least acknowledge.
It took him time to discover he doesn't care enough about the club for what it is, in itself. Why would he have natural love for Charlton?
He didn't support us before his purchase and he knows a minimal amount about football in general.
You have to weather the storm in the correct appropriate way.
He would have recieved the reward he is looking for if he helped Charlton push for promotion to the championship and we at least stayed in that division.
No pain, no gain
Not half as egotistical as Sandgaard, mind you.