As I thought yesterday - us not buying a forward to replace Washington cost us a victory. That is on TS.
Why are people so wanting to hate this man, who as I can see it, is trying to run this club so that we never have to go through what we went through just before he arrived again.
He isn’t perfect but continuous blaming and hating on him must get so depressing for people.
They’ve said they have to balance the books. We’re looking so much better already than last year.
I certainly don’t hate him. Am grateful to him for saving the club. But I suspect if he wants to balance the books, the team will not be successful (my definition of success being promotion) any time soon.
Apparently he wants to reduce annual losses by £4M, £1M through cost efficiencies and £2-3M through increased revenue. Roughly speaking that equates to ~ another £100K per game, say another 4-5,000 spectators per game. Great that the style of play appears more attractive than last season but results is what will help improve gates and maybe that requires more investment on additional striking options than TS is willing to pay.
Bit more than that. It's highly unlikely that the average ticket yield is £20 net, given that a good 40-45% are concessions and the majority of those are juniors. Even if you factor in what people spend on average, it's relatively minor as a net benefit (and actual revenue from the kiosks, bars and retail goes elsewhere with the club only getting a royalty). I would think you need about 7,000 extra paying fans every game to add £2.3m in ticket revenue - roughly speaking that means doubling (or for some games trebling) the home match sales. That isn't happening any time soon.
I think that this is TS' fundamental problem on terms of his goals, aspirations etc. He's probably run all the maths and done the sums and figured out that ON PAPER you can get a lot more money out than he currently is.
BUT he's either too stubborn or naive/idealistic/stupid (delete as you feel accurate) about turning those sums into reality. He's sure that he can succeed where a lot of others have not and will somehow find the football equivalent of the magic money tree. Chances are that he is very wrong on that.
I think it's a very easy mistake to make, if you don't have the on ground Intel.
Can Charlton sell 20,000 tickets for almost every home game of the season. Of course they can.
We sell about 13ish?
7,000 x times £10 profit per ticket x 25ish home games. Equals nearly £2 million. Simple isn't it.
It's like buying a DVD player manufacturer and saying in 2010 we sold a million players. Why did we only sell 1 last year? Obviously didn't try hard enough.
Yes that's being flippant and over the top but I remember reading an article/interview (maybe someone could dig it out) about how Thomas turned round his company by chasing debt that people advised him he should write off. He increased the resource and targeted management of the recovery team and clawed back millions that people had told him he wouldn't get back.
Unless you actually pay people to turn up you won't get 20,000 in the valley, on a bi weekly basis, in league 1. Full stop.
As I thought yesterday - us not buying a forward to replace Washington cost us a victory. That is on TS.
Why are people so wanting to hate this man, who as I can see it, is trying to run this club so that we never have to go through what we went through just before he arrived again.
He isn’t perfect but continuous blaming and hating on him must get so depressing for people.
They’ve said they have to balance the books. We’re looking so much better already than last year.
I certainly don’t hate him. Am grateful to him for saving the club. But I suspect if he wants to balance the books, the team will not be successful (my definition of success being promotion) any time soon.
Apparently he wants to reduce annual losses by £4M, £1M through cost efficiencies and £2-3M through increased revenue. Roughly speaking that equates to ~ another £100K per game, say another 4-5,000 spectators per game. Great that the style of play appears more attractive than last season but results is what will help improve gates and maybe that requires more investment on additional striking options than TS is willing to pay.
Bit more than that. It's highly unlikely that the average ticket yield is £20 net, given that a good 40-45% are concessions and the majority of those are juniors. Even if you factor in what people spend on average, it's relatively minor as a net benefit (and actual revenue from the kiosks, bars and retail goes elsewhere with the club only getting a royalty). I would think you need about 7,000 extra paying fans every game to add £2.3m in ticket revenue - roughly speaking that means doubling (or for some games trebling) the home match sales. That isn't happening any time soon.
I think that this is TS' fundamental problem on terms of his goals, aspirations etc. He's probably run all the maths and done the sums and figured out that ON PAPER you can get a lot more money out than he currently is.
BUT he's either too stubborn or naive/idealistic/stupid (delete as you feel accurate) about turning those sums into reality. He's sure that he can succeed where a lot of others have not and will somehow find the football equivalent of the magic money tree. Chances are that he is very wrong on that.
I think it's a very easy mistake to make, if you don't have the on ground Intel.
Can Charlton sell 20,000 tickets for almost every home game of the season. Of course they can.
We sell about 13ish?
7,000 x times £10 profit per ticket x 25ish home games. Equals nearly £2 million. Simple isn't it.
It's like buying a DVD player manufacturer and saying in 2010 we sold a million players. Why did we only sell 1 last year? Obviously didn't try hard enough.
Yes that's being flippant and over the top but I remember reading an article/interview (maybe someone could dig it out) about how Thomas turned round his company by chasing debt that people advised him he should write off. He increased the resource and targeted management of the recovery team and clawed back millions that people had told him he wouldn't get back.
Unless you actually pay people to turn up you won't get 20,000 in the valley, on a bi weekly basis, in league 1. Full stop.
As I thought yesterday - us not buying a forward to replace Washington cost us a victory. That is on TS.
Why are people so wanting to hate this man, who as I can see it, is trying to run this club so that we never have to go through what we went through just before he arrived again.
He isn’t perfect but continuous blaming and hating on him must get so depressing for people.
They’ve said they have to balance the books. We’re looking so much better already than last year.
I certainly don’t hate him. Am grateful to him for saving the club. But I suspect if he wants to balance the books, the team will not be successful (my definition of success being promotion) any time soon.
Apparently he wants to reduce annual losses by £4M, £1M through cost efficiencies and £2-3M through increased revenue. Roughly speaking that equates to ~ another £100K per game, say another 4-5,000 spectators per game. Great that the style of play appears more attractive than last season but results is what will help improve gates and maybe that requires more investment on additional striking options than TS is willing to pay.
Bit more than that. It's highly unlikely that the average ticket yield is £20 net, given that a good 40-45% are concessions and the majority of those are juniors. Even if you factor in what people spend on average, it's relatively minor as a net benefit (and actual revenue from the kiosks, bars and retail goes elsewhere with the club only getting a royalty). I would think you need about 7,000 extra paying fans every game to add £2.3m in ticket revenue - roughly speaking that means doubling (or for some games trebling) the home match sales. That isn't happening any time soon.
I think that this is TS' fundamental problem on terms of his goals, aspirations etc. He's probably run all the maths and done the sums and figured out that ON PAPER you can get a lot more money out than he currently is.
BUT he's either too stubborn or naive/idealistic/stupid (delete as you feel accurate) about turning those sums into reality. He's sure that he can succeed where a lot of others have not and will somehow find the football equivalent of the magic money tree. Chances are that he is very wrong on that.
I think it's a very easy mistake to make, if you don't have the on ground Intel.
Can Charlton sell 20,000 tickets for almost every home game of the season. Of course they can.
We sell about 13ish?
7,000 x times £10 profit per ticket x 25ish home games. Equals nearly £2 million. Simple isn't it.
It's like buying a DVD player manufacturer and saying in 2010 we sold a million players. Why did we only sell 1 last year? Obviously didn't try hard enough.
Yes that's being flippant and over the top but I remember reading an article/interview (maybe someone could dig it out) about how Thomas turned round his company by chasing debt that people advised him he should write off. He increased the resource and targeted management of the recovery team and clawed back millions that people had told him he wouldn't get back.
Unless you actually pay people to turn up you won't get 20,000 in the valley, on a bi weekly basis, in league 1. Full stop.
But that should not stop you trying.
In my view there are two ways you can go - offer people a good deal so that more are encouraged to come or ratchet up the prices and get as much money as you can from those who are already committed. A case can be made for either approach, but not both at the same time.
The problem with Sandgaard’s approach, at least as far as the match tickets are concerned, is that he’s gone for Cakeism.
As I thought yesterday - us not buying a forward to replace Washington cost us a victory. That is on TS.
Why are people so wanting to hate this man, who as I can see it, is trying to run this club so that we never have to go through what we went through just before he arrived again.
He isn’t perfect but continuous blaming and hating on him must get so depressing for people.
They’ve said they have to balance the books. We’re looking so much better already than last year.
I certainly don’t hate him. Am grateful to him for saving the club. But I suspect if he wants to balance the books, the team will not be successful (my definition of success being promotion) any time soon.
Apparently he wants to reduce annual losses by £4M, £1M through cost efficiencies and £2-3M through increased revenue. Roughly speaking that equates to ~ another £100K per game, say another 4-5,000 spectators per game. Great that the style of play appears more attractive than last season but results is what will help improve gates and maybe that requires more investment on additional striking options than TS is willing to pay.
Bit more than that. It's highly unlikely that the average ticket yield is £20 net, given that a good 40-45% are concessions and the majority of those are juniors. Even if you factor in what people spend on average, it's relatively minor as a net benefit (and actual revenue from the kiosks, bars and retail goes elsewhere with the club only getting a royalty). I would think you need about 7,000 extra paying fans every game to add £2.3m in ticket revenue - roughly speaking that means doubling (or for some games trebling) the home match sales. That isn't happening any time soon.
I think that this is TS' fundamental problem on terms of his goals, aspirations etc. He's probably run all the maths and done the sums and figured out that ON PAPER you can get a lot more money out than he currently is.
BUT he's either too stubborn or naive/idealistic/stupid (delete as you feel accurate) about turning those sums into reality. He's sure that he can succeed where a lot of others have not and will somehow find the football equivalent of the magic money tree. Chances are that he is very wrong on that.
I think it's a very easy mistake to make, if you don't have the on ground Intel.
Can Charlton sell 20,000 tickets for almost every home game of the season. Of course they can.
We sell about 13ish?
7,000 x times £10 profit per ticket x 25ish home games. Equals nearly £2 million. Simple isn't it.
It's like buying a DVD player manufacturer and saying in 2010 we sold a million players. Why did we only sell 1 last year? Obviously didn't try hard enough.
Yes that's being flippant and over the top but I remember reading an article/interview (maybe someone could dig it out) about how Thomas turned round his company by chasing debt that people advised him he should write off. He increased the resource and targeted management of the recovery team and clawed back millions that people had told him he wouldn't get back.
Unless you actually pay people to turn up you won't get 20,000 in the valley, on a bi weekly basis, in league 1. Full stop.
But that should not stop you trying.
Of course it shouldn't stop you trying but you shouldn't build your business model on Jam tomorrow.
It's the pragmatic little things that have cost him a lot of money. Buy a center back in January 2021 and half the problems might have gone away.
Of course that wouldn't have guaranteed us promotion but it might have helped. It would have almost certainly have also help the start of the next season.
The awful transfer policies (there have been many) have set the club back years. Now it's a two season project when two years ago it was a one year project.
Now of course I will add the caveat that it's his money and he can choose to spend it as he wishes but by spending it baldy, at the wrong time, it has cost him a lot, my fag packet maths about £10 million, more than it could have done.
As I thought yesterday - us not buying a forward to replace Washington cost us a victory. That is on TS.
Why are people so wanting to hate this man, who as I can see it, is trying to run this club so that we never have to go through what we went through just before he arrived again.
He isn’t perfect but continuous blaming and hating on him must get so depressing for people.
They’ve said they have to balance the books. We’re looking so much better already than last year.
I certainly don’t hate him. Am grateful to him for saving the club. But I suspect if he wants to balance the books, the team will not be successful (my definition of success being promotion) any time soon.
Apparently he wants to reduce annual losses by £4M, £1M through cost efficiencies and £2-3M through increased revenue. Roughly speaking that equates to ~ another £100K per game, say another 4-5,000 spectators per game. Great that the style of play appears more attractive than last season but results is what will help improve gates and maybe that requires more investment on additional striking options than TS is willing to pay.
Bit more than that. It's highly unlikely that the average ticket yield is £20 net, given that a good 40-45% are concessions and the majority of those are juniors. Even if you factor in what people spend on average, it's relatively minor as a net benefit (and actual revenue from the kiosks, bars and retail goes elsewhere with the club only getting a royalty). I would think you need about 7,000 extra paying fans every game to add £2.3m in ticket revenue - roughly speaking that means doubling (or for some games trebling) the home match sales. That isn't happening any time soon.
I think that this is TS' fundamental problem on terms of his goals, aspirations etc. He's probably run all the maths and done the sums and figured out that ON PAPER you can get a lot more money out than he currently is.
BUT he's either too stubborn or naive/idealistic/stupid (delete as you feel accurate) about turning those sums into reality. He's sure that he can succeed where a lot of others have not and will somehow find the football equivalent of the magic money tree. Chances are that he is very wrong on that.
I think it's a very easy mistake to make, if you don't have the on ground Intel.
Can Charlton sell 20,000 tickets for almost every home game of the season. Of course they can.
We sell about 13ish?
7,000 x times £10 profit per ticket x 25ish home games. Equals nearly £2 million. Simple isn't it.
It's like buying a DVD player manufacturer and saying in 2010 we sold a million players. Why did we only sell 1 last year? Obviously didn't try hard enough.
Yes that's being flippant and over the top but I remember reading an article/interview (maybe someone could dig it out) about how Thomas turned round his company by chasing debt that people advised him he should write off. He increased the resource and targeted management of the recovery team and clawed back millions that people had told him he wouldn't get back.
Unless you actually pay people to turn up you won't get 20,000 in the valley, on a bi weekly basis, in league 1. Full stop.
But that should not stop you trying.
In my view there are two ways you can go - offer people a good deal so that more are encouraged to come or ratchet up the prices and get as much money as you can from those who are already committed. A case can be made for either approach, but not both at the same time.
The problem with Sandgaard’s approach, at least as far as the match tickets are concerned, is that he’s gone for Cakeism.
I do think it is a very difficult balance to get right, and there is a risk in lowering prices if you then don’t get an increase in numbers attending. But surely you are not suggesting that there is no point in trying to do anything? I remember fans saying the same thing with the target 10,000 campaign and that it was an unrealistic target. That target looks ridiculously low now.
Who knows what the Club and fans could achieve together, but what I do know is that if you don’t try you definitely won’t improve attendance.
As I thought yesterday - us not buying a forward to replace Washington cost us a victory. That is on TS.
Why are people so wanting to hate this man, who as I can see it, is trying to run this club so that we never have to go through what we went through just before he arrived again.
He isn’t perfect but continuous blaming and hating on him must get so depressing for people.
They’ve said they have to balance the books. We’re looking so much better already than last year.
I certainly don’t hate him. Am grateful to him for saving the club. But I suspect if he wants to balance the books, the team will not be successful (my definition of success being promotion) any time soon.
Apparently he wants to reduce annual losses by £4M, £1M through cost efficiencies and £2-3M through increased revenue. Roughly speaking that equates to ~ another £100K per game, say another 4-5,000 spectators per game. Great that the style of play appears more attractive than last season but results is what will help improve gates and maybe that requires more investment on additional striking options than TS is willing to pay.
Bit more than that. It's highly unlikely that the average ticket yield is £20 net, given that a good 40-45% are concessions and the majority of those are juniors. Even if you factor in what people spend on average, it's relatively minor as a net benefit (and actual revenue from the kiosks, bars and retail goes elsewhere with the club only getting a royalty). I would think you need about 7,000 extra paying fans every game to add £2.3m in ticket revenue - roughly speaking that means doubling (or for some games trebling) the home match sales. That isn't happening any time soon.
Happy to bow to your experience on the numbers Airman. I wasn’t sure if an average yield of £20 per ticket would be right given there might be a high proportion of juniors/concessions etc but assumed a reasonable percentage of revenue from bars and retail might go to the club. However, from what you are saying that isn’t hugely significant. But I think my general point stands that it isn’t going to be easy for TS to halve the current losses of £8M per annum, let along break even until we start moving back up the leagues and get bigger gates, increased tv revenues etc. Obviously not rocket science. But difficult to see how he does it without a bigger level of investment in playing staff than he is either willing or able to do. We could be in League 1 for some years.
As I thought yesterday - us not buying a forward to replace Washington cost us a victory. That is on TS.
Why are people so wanting to hate this man, who as I can see it, is trying to run this club so that we never have to go through what we went through just before he arrived again.
He isn’t perfect but continuous blaming and hating on him must get so depressing for people.
They’ve said they have to balance the books. We’re looking so much better already than last year.
I certainly don’t hate him. Am grateful to him for saving the club. But I suspect if he wants to balance the books, the team will not be successful (my definition of success being promotion) any time soon.
Apparently he wants to reduce annual losses by £4M, £1M through cost efficiencies and £2-3M through increased revenue. Roughly speaking that equates to ~ another £100K per game, say another 4-5,000 spectators per game. Great that the style of play appears more attractive than last season but results is what will help improve gates and maybe that requires more investment on additional striking options than TS is willing to pay.
Bit more than that. It's highly unlikely that the average ticket yield is £20 net, given that a good 40-45% are concessions and the majority of those are juniors. Even if you factor in what people spend on average, it's relatively minor as a net benefit (and actual revenue from the kiosks, bars and retail goes elsewhere with the club only getting a royalty). I would think you need about 7,000 extra paying fans every game to add £2.3m in ticket revenue - roughly speaking that means doubling (or for some games trebling) the home match sales. That isn't happening any time soon.
I think that this is TS' fundamental problem on terms of his goals, aspirations etc. He's probably run all the maths and done the sums and figured out that ON PAPER you can get a lot more money out than he currently is.
BUT he's either too stubborn or naive/idealistic/stupid (delete as you feel accurate) about turning those sums into reality. He's sure that he can succeed where a lot of others have not and will somehow find the football equivalent of the magic money tree. Chances are that he is very wrong on that.
I think it's a very easy mistake to make, if you don't have the on ground Intel.
Can Charlton sell 20,000 tickets for almost every home game of the season. Of course they can.
We sell about 13ish?
7,000 x times £10 profit per ticket x 25ish home games. Equals nearly £2 million. Simple isn't it.
It's like buying a DVD player manufacturer and saying in 2010 we sold a million players. Why did we only sell 1 last year? Obviously didn't try hard enough.
Yes that's being flippant and over the top but I remember reading an article/interview (maybe someone could dig it out) about how Thomas turned round his company by chasing debt that people advised him he should write off. He increased the resource and targeted management of the recovery team and clawed back millions that people had told him he wouldn't get back.
Unless you actually pay people to turn up you won't get 20,000 in the valley, on a bi weekly basis, in league 1. Full stop.
But that should not stop you trying.
In my view there are two ways you can go - offer people a good deal so that more are encouraged to come or ratchet up the prices and get as much money as you can from those who are already committed. A case can be made for either approach, but not both at the same time.
The problem with Sandgaard’s approach, at least as far as the match tickets are concerned, is that he’s gone for Cakeism.
I do think it is a very difficult balance to get right, and there is a risk in lowering prices if you then don’t get an increase in numbers attending. But surely you are not suggesting that there is no point in trying to do anything? I remember fans saying the same thing with the target 10,000 campaign and that it was an unrealistic target. That target looks ridiculously low now.
Who knows what the Club and fans could achieve together, but what I do know is that if you don’t try you definitely won’t improve attendance.
Different times, different world. I don’t think our current gates are that bad for Charlton in L1 by historical standards. Of course you should try to maximise revenue one way or the other, but what I don’t see here is a credible plan to do either. In fact, I see a pricing structure that mitigates against increasing crowds, accompanied by contradictory rhetoric.
We spent a lot of time working up business cases around pricing in the past because every board of directors contained people who couldn’t see beyond higher prices equals more revenue or thought that if they were putting their spare cash into the club that fans should expect to do so too. Problem is, a lot of people either didn’t have “spare cash” or weren’t that bothered.
In short, I don’t believe TS has a business case for the pricing which would stand up to critical examination - but of course in his structure it won’t get any. That doesn’t make him a bad man but it does mean his budgets will be way off, and that ultimately impinges on the players we sign.
As I thought yesterday - us not buying a forward to replace Washington cost us a victory. That is on TS.
Why are people so wanting to hate this man, who as I can see it, is trying to run this club so that we never have to go through what we went through just before he arrived again.
He isn’t perfect but continuous blaming and hating on him must get so depressing for people.
They’ve said they have to balance the books. We’re looking so much better already than last year.
I certainly don’t hate him. Am grateful to him for saving the club. But I suspect if he wants to balance the books, the team will not be successful (my definition of success being promotion) any time soon.
Apparently he wants to reduce annual losses by £4M, £1M through cost efficiencies and £2-3M through increased revenue. Roughly speaking that equates to ~ another £100K per game, say another 4-5,000 spectators per game. Great that the style of play appears more attractive than last season but results is what will help improve gates and maybe that requires more investment on additional striking options than TS is willing to pay.
Bit more than that. It's highly unlikely that the average ticket yield is £20 net, given that a good 40-45% are concessions and the majority of those are juniors. Even if you factor in what people spend on average, it's relatively minor as a net benefit (and actual revenue from the kiosks, bars and retail goes elsewhere with the club only getting a royalty). I would think you need about 7,000 extra paying fans every game to add £2.3m in ticket revenue - roughly speaking that means doubling (or for some games trebling) the home match sales. That isn't happening any time soon.
Happy to bow to your experience on the numbers Airman. I wasn’t sure if an average yield of £20 per ticket would be right given there might be a high proportion of juniors/concessions etc but assumed a reasonable percentage of revenue from bars and retail might go to the club. However, from what you are saying that isn’t hugely significant. But I think my general point stands that it isn’t going to be easy for TS to halve the current losses of £8M per annum, let along break even until we start moving back up the leagues and get bigger gates, increased tv revenues etc. Obviously not rocket science. But difficult to see how he does it without a bigger level of investment in playing staff than he is either willing or able to do. We could be in League 1 for some years.
I believe they have been getting 18% from the kiosks, but even if the average spend is £3 that’s only 54p per spectator. Remember that most people buy nothing, dragging down the average.
As I thought yesterday - us not buying a forward to replace Washington cost us a victory. That is on TS.
Why are people so wanting to hate this man, who as I can see it, is trying to run this club so that we never have to go through what we went through just before he arrived again.
He isn’t perfect but continuous blaming and hating on him must get so depressing for people.
They’ve said they have to balance the books. We’re looking so much better already than last year.
I would call TS my straw. I don't hate him and I think a case could be made that he is the best owner we have had in years, but look at what we have had. I am a camel and he is the straw that has broken my back. Others may have been haystacks, but I have been watching us in this shit league too long and that isn't Sandgaards fault although it is on him to get us out of it and I don't think he will. I want him to but I can't lie or convince myself otherwise.
I won't protest and I will hope something changes but I am a bit depressed about it to be honest and because he is the straw, my patience levels are close to zero.
Should probably take a break if the club's making you depressed. You seem like you're getting all Bowyer-y again and that's surely a sign to give yourself some time off
Can someone go back and check who was slating Washington's ability as last season went on and cross reference if they're the same saying Washington going was a mistake?
100%
It’s just as bad as Twitter on Tuesday and Twitter on Saturday
People just like to be heard, regardless of the substance
Of course I did call out, admittedly different issues, with Southall when a lot of you lot were still cheering him and blowing smoke up his arse. I love Charlton like the rest of you and have my opinions right or wrong.
Absolutely fair comment, as were your earlier ones. Unfortunately there are now so many posters on here who see any expression of doubt about TS as an act of treason that discussion just gets shut down.
There’s plenty of criticism, and I don’t think it gets shut or shouted down unless it’s overly personal.
My feelings about Sandgaard are similar to my feelings about Stockley. He’s quite a good owner in the same way that Stockley is quite a good striker. Means well, decent fella, and he’s probably heading in the right direction (like Stockley, boom boom), but whether or not he has the wherewithal to get us promoted is a different matter.
As I thought yesterday - us not buying a forward to replace Washington cost us a victory. That is on TS.
Why are people so wanting to hate this man, who as I can see it, is trying to run this club so that we never have to go through what we went through just before he arrived again.
He isn’t perfect but continuous blaming and hating on him must get so depressing for people.
They’ve said they have to balance the books. We’re looking so much better already than last year.
I certainly don’t hate him. Am grateful to him for saving the club. But I suspect if he wants to balance the books, the team will not be successful (my definition of success being promotion) any time soon.
Apparently he wants to reduce annual losses by £4M, £1M through cost efficiencies and £2-3M through increased revenue. Roughly speaking that equates to ~ another £100K per game, say another 4-5,000 spectators per game. Great that the style of play appears more attractive than last season but results is what will help improve gates and maybe that requires more investment on additional striking options than TS is willing to pay.
Bit more than that. It's highly unlikely that the average ticket yield is £20 net, given that a good 40-45% are concessions and the majority of those are juniors. Even if you factor in what people spend on average, it's relatively minor as a net benefit (and actual revenue from the kiosks, bars and retail goes elsewhere with the club only getting a royalty). I would think you need about 7,000 extra paying fans every game to add £2.3m in ticket revenue - roughly speaking that means doubling (or for some games trebling) the home match sales. That isn't happening any time soon.
I think that this is TS' fundamental problem on terms of his goals, aspirations etc. He's probably run all the maths and done the sums and figured out that ON PAPER you can get a lot more money out than he currently is.
BUT he's either too stubborn or naive/idealistic/stupid (delete as you feel accurate) about turning those sums into reality. He's sure that he can succeed where a lot of others have not and will somehow find the football equivalent of the magic money tree. Chances are that he is very wrong on that.
I think it's a very easy mistake to make, if you don't have the on ground Intel.
Can Charlton sell 20,000 tickets for almost every home game of the season. Of course they can.
We sell about 13ish?
7,000 x times £10 profit per ticket x 25ish home games. Equals nearly £2 million. Simple isn't it.
It's like buying a DVD player manufacturer and saying in 2010 we sold a million players. Why did we only sell 1 last year? Obviously didn't try hard enough.
Yes that's being flippant and over the top but I remember reading an article/interview (maybe someone could dig it out) about how Thomas turned round his company by chasing debt that people advised him he should write off. He increased the resource and targeted management of the recovery team and clawed back millions that people had told him he wouldn't get back.
Unless you actually pay people to turn up you won't get 20,000 in the valley, on a bi weekly basis, in league 1. Full stop.
But that should not stop you trying.
In my view there are two ways you can go - offer people a good deal so that more are encouraged to come or ratchet up the prices and get as much money as you can from those who are already committed. A case can be made for either approach, but not both at the same time.
The problem with Sandgaard’s approach, at least as far as the match tickets are concerned, is that he’s gone for Cakeism.
I do think it is a very difficult balance to get right, and there is a risk in lowering prices if you then don’t get an increase in numbers attending. But surely you are not suggesting that there is no point in trying to do anything? I remember fans saying the same thing with the target 10,000 campaign and that it was an unrealistic target. That target looks ridiculously low now.
Who knows what the Club and fans could achieve together, but what I do know is that if you don’t try you definitely won’t improve attendance.
We always seem to charge £10 or £15 for cup games (and you get ‘footy for a fiver’ matches). What’s wrong with making them £12 or £13? Some people were literally put off going to the QPR match because of the £15 price tag. So if £10 is deemed too cheap, try £12 or £13?
As I thought yesterday - us not buying a forward to replace Washington cost us a victory. That is on TS.
Why are people so wanting to hate this man, who as I can see it, is trying to run this club so that we never have to go through what we went through just before he arrived again.
He isn’t perfect but continuous blaming and hating on him must get so depressing for people.
They’ve said they have to balance the books. We’re looking so much better already than last year.
I certainly don’t hate him. Am grateful to him for saving the club. But I suspect if he wants to balance the books, the team will not be successful (my definition of success being promotion) any time soon.
Apparently he wants to reduce annual losses by £4M, £1M through cost efficiencies and £2-3M through increased revenue. Roughly speaking that equates to ~ another £100K per game, say another 4-5,000 spectators per game. Great that the style of play appears more attractive than last season but results is what will help improve gates and maybe that requires more investment on additional striking options than TS is willing to pay.
Bit more than that. It's highly unlikely that the average ticket yield is £20 net, given that a good 40-45% are concessions and the majority of those are juniors. Even if you factor in what people spend on average, it's relatively minor as a net benefit (and actual revenue from the kiosks, bars and retail goes elsewhere with the club only getting a royalty). I would think you need about 7,000 extra paying fans every game to add £2.3m in ticket revenue - roughly speaking that means doubling (or for some games trebling) the home match sales. That isn't happening any time soon.
I think that this is TS' fundamental problem on terms of his goals, aspirations etc. He's probably run all the maths and done the sums and figured out that ON PAPER you can get a lot more money out than he currently is.
BUT he's either too stubborn or naive/idealistic/stupid (delete as you feel accurate) about turning those sums into reality. He's sure that he can succeed where a lot of others have not and will somehow find the football equivalent of the magic money tree. Chances are that he is very wrong on that.
I think it's a very easy mistake to make, if you don't have the on ground Intel.
Can Charlton sell 20,000 tickets for almost every home game of the season. Of course they can.
We sell about 13ish?
7,000 x times £10 profit per ticket x 25ish home games. Equals nearly £2 million. Simple isn't it.
It's like buying a DVD player manufacturer and saying in 2010 we sold a million players. Why did we only sell 1 last year? Obviously didn't try hard enough.
Yes that's being flippant and over the top but I remember reading an article/interview (maybe someone could dig it out) about how Thomas turned round his company by chasing debt that people advised him he should write off. He increased the resource and targeted management of the recovery team and clawed back millions that people had told him he wouldn't get back.
Unless you actually pay people to turn up you won't get 20,000 in the valley, on a bi weekly basis, in league 1. Full stop.
But that should not stop you trying.
In my view there are two ways you can go - offer people a good deal so that more are encouraged to come or ratchet up the prices and get as much money as you can from those who are already committed. A case can be made for either approach, but not both at the same time.
The problem with Sandgaard’s approach, at least as far as the match tickets are concerned, is that he’s gone for Cakeism.
I do think it is a very difficult balance to get right, and there is a risk in lowering prices if you then don’t get an increase in numbers attending. But surely you are not suggesting that there is no point in trying to do anything? I remember fans saying the same thing with the target 10,000 campaign and that it was an unrealistic target. That target looks ridiculously low now.
Who knows what the Club and fans could achieve together, but what I do know is that if you don’t try you definitely won’t improve attendance.
We always seem to charge £10 or £15 for cup games (and you get ‘footy for a fiver’ matches). What’s wrong with making them £12 or £13? Some people were literally put off going to the QPR match because of the £15 price tag. So if £10 is deemed too cheap, try £12 or £13?
I wasn’t put off the QPR game because it was £15. I was put off because for as long as I can remember we haven’t taken cup matches seriously, putting out severely weakened teams, putting in severely sub standard performances. If the manager doesn’t take it seriously then neither will the players. That is unfair on Garner but he, the team, and the ultimately the Club suffered as a result.
Can someone go back and check who was slating Washington's ability as last season went on and cross reference if they're the same saying Washington going was a mistake?
100%
It’s just as bad as Twitter on Tuesday and Twitter on Saturday
People just like to be heard, regardless of the substance
It’s a much discussed subject….he was a great player in a number of ways, I liked him as a matter of fact, but his missed opportunities ratios were sadly just not good enough. As for his one on ones with the keeper…..the less said the better. He simply wasn’t a natural goal scorer……end of……sadly.
Any transfer rumours from yesterday? Did many fans speak to the Sandgaard’s who were sitting in with the fans yesterday?
That did make me laugh when I heard he did that !!!
There itself is all the proof anyone needs that the bloke is a loon 😂
You tell me how many football clubs owners are crazy enough to sit in with the fans ? Just imagine how much grief he would get if we played like we did in the 1st half against Derby.
I would like a fiver for everytime someone asked him if we are buying a striker 😂😂😂
Any transfer rumours from yesterday? Did many fans speak to the Sandgaard’s who were sitting in with the fans yesterday?
That did make me laugh when I heard he did that !!!
There itself is all the proof anyone needs that the bloke is a loon 😂
You tell me how many football clubs owners are crazy enough to sit in with the fans ? Just imagine how much grief he would get if we played like we did in the 1st half against Derby.
I would like a fiver for everytime someone asked him if we are buying a striker 😂😂😂
I have been saying this for many years and I think a lot of people just view the issue from their own perspective. But what I have been saying is that the most important Charlton fans are the fickle ones and the ones who are not Charlton fans yet. Those that would go religiously in League 2 or the national league are to be commended but they are not important at all because they will eat any crap they are given.
The question is always, can we find more of these easily pleased people and I think there is no evidence that it is possible. A club which has a natural home in the Championship can only lose money and over time fans in the lower leagues. If we become an established league one club that will become our natural place and sadly over the last decade, that seems to be where we are settling. That isn't Sandgaard's fault but it is important we remove the chains of League One sooner rather than later and that is where we have a problem if he is incapable of doing so.
The problem with initiatives to increase fans is not just the plan behind them but the importance that everything else aligns alongside them. Airman was part of the club when it had very ambitious targets which some may have felt were impossible, but what they had alongside a great plan was a club on the up under a terrific manager. And we got promoted to the Premier League.
It worries me when we are told it is possible to double or even triple revenue in League One. It is pie in the sky and just another ridiculous thing to add to the list. We have Airman, who some might have said was over optimistic about what could be done with Target 10,000 and Traget 20,000 telling us there is no plan and indeed I can't see one like so many other little things that add up to a big thing - preventing us getting promoted from a division that is sucking the blood out of us like a leech.
It worries me when I hear stories of chaos within the club, it worries me when I see a team start last season with no goals in it and the owner leading it out playing his song, it worries me when the owner tries to change the name of the women's team to Ladies when they don't want it, it worries me when we had a strikers crisis last season which cost us a lot of points and we go into this with fewer strikers, it worries me when the owner seems to think that the U-23s will solve our issues when you can't bank on it, it happens when and if it happens. It worries when I see stories about a staff member issue that the owner doesn't seem to want to address, it worries me when Jacko was sacked without being given a proper chance and whilst Garner seems to be potentially decent, he has to line up with the system he signed up to like Adkins did. I believe Jacko was sacked because he didn't. It worries me when Sandgaard talks crap and I appreciate I should learn to see around some of it but he has got to me. It also worries me when we seem to have money to waste on players but none to spend on glaring needs.
If I am supposed to be happy about all that because we are, and indeed we are, playing some more attractive football, then sorry I can't feel it at all.I look at the past and it makes me worry about the future. I look at an owner who I think is out of his depth but he thinks he is a genius. Some think it is a certainty we will get the striker we need but I am concerned that whilst it is blindingly obvious we need one, maybe two, we haven't got him yet and are very likely not to get him at all.
JFC and Gilbey both off the books would help a lot in being able to bring in a striker IMO
I think that would be a bit of a mistake letting them both go! Injuries or players out of form, then leaves us short in middle of the park.
Let one go, fine - certainly not both
We do still have Aaron Henry. Not sure whether he is ready to play 10+ League matches this season yet.
Personally think he needs a loan to league 2, or at least a promotion contending National league side.
He seems to have been around for a while as he made his debut so young but let's not forget he only turns 19 at the end of this month. He'll get some cup games but i don't think he's really ready to play a serious part in league 1 yet and to me if he's only going to get a few minutes here and there, he'd be better off getting regular football on loan so he can develop better.
I have been saying this for many years and I think a lot of people just view the issue from their own perspective. But what I have been saying is that the most important Charlton fans are the fickle ones and the ones who are not Charlton fans yet. Those that would go religiously in League 2 or the national league are to be commended but they are not important at all because they will eat any crap they are given.
The question is always, can we find more of these easily pleased people and I think there is no evidence that it is possible. A club which has a natural home in the Championship can only lose money and over time fans in the lower leagues. If we become an established league one club that will become our natural place and sadly over the last decade, that seems to be where we are settling. That isn't Sandgaard's fault but it is important we remove the chains of League One sooner rather than later and that is where we have a problem if he is incapable of doing so.
The problem with initiatives to increase fans is not just the plan behind them but the importance that everything else aligns alongside them. Airman was part of the club when it had very ambitious targets which some may have felt were impossible, but what they had alongside a great plan was a club on the up under a terrific manager. And we got promoted to the Premier League.
It worries me when we are told it is possible to double or even triple revenue in League One. It is pie in the sky and just another ridiculous thing to add to the list. We have Airman, who some might have said was over optimistic about what could be done with Target 10,000 and Traget 20,000 telling us there is no plan and indeed I can't see one like so many other little things that add up to a big thing - preventing us getting promoted from a division that is sucking the blood out of us like a leech.
It worries me when I hear stories of chaos within the club, it worries me when I see a team start last season with no goals in it and the owner leading it out playing his song, it worries me when the owner tries to change the name of the women's team to Ladies when they don't want it, it worries me when we had a strikers crisis last season which cost us a lot of points and we go into this with fewer strikers, it worries me when the owner seems to think that the U-23s will solve our issues when you can't bank on it, it happens when and if it happens. It worries when I see stories about a staff member issue that the owner doesn't seem to want to address, it worries me when Jacko was sacked without being given a proper chance and whilst Garner seems to be potentially decent, he has to line up with the system he signed up to like Adkins did. I believe Jacko was sacked because he didn't. It worries me when Sandgaard talks crap and I appreciate I should learn to see around some of it but he has got to me. It also worries me when we seem to have money to waste on players but none to spend on glaring needs.
If I am supposed to be happy about all that because we are, and indeed we are, playing some more attractive football, then sorry I can't feel it at all.I look at the past and it makes me worry about the future. I look at an owner who I think is out of his depth but he thinks he is a genius. Some think it is a certainty we will get the striker we need but I am concerned that whilst it is blindingly obvious we need one, maybe two, we haven't got him yet and are very likely not to get him at all.
JFC and Gilbey both off the books would help a lot in being able to bring in a striker IMO
I think that would be a bit of a mistake letting them both go! Injuries or players out of form, then leaves us short in middle of the park.
Let one go, fine - certainly not both
We do still have Aaron Henry. Not sure whether he is ready to play 10+ League matches this season yet.
The worst thing for Henry to be would be 6th of 6. Travelling and not making the 18, not able to play for the U21 incase he is needed on the bench etc etc.
If you then have a few injuries and want him in the team ahead of who ever number 6 is, that's fine but I would rather have an older player, who isn't a long term investment be 6th.
A loan to a League 2 club would seem sensible and hopefully if all goes well he will be ripe fruit for us in January. I think the same applies to Leaburn but we don't have other options there.
As I thought yesterday - us not buying a forward to replace Washington cost us a victory. That is on TS.
Why are people so wanting to hate this man, who as I can see it, is trying to run this club so that we never have to go through what we went through just before he arrived again.
He isn’t perfect but continuous blaming and hating on him must get so depressing for people.
They’ve said they have to balance the books. We’re looking so much better already than last year.
I certainly don’t hate him. Am grateful to him for saving the club. But I suspect if he wants to balance the books, the team will not be successful (my definition of success being promotion) any time soon.
Apparently he wants to reduce annual losses by £4M, £1M through cost efficiencies and £2-3M through increased revenue. Roughly speaking that equates to ~ another £100K per game, say another 4-5,000 spectators per game. Great that the style of play appears more attractive than last season but results is what will help improve gates and maybe that requires more investment on additional striking options than TS is willing to pay.
Bit more than that. It's highly unlikely that the average ticket yield is £20 net, given that a good 40-45% are concessions and the majority of those are juniors. Even if you factor in what people spend on average, it's relatively minor as a net benefit (and actual revenue from the kiosks, bars and retail goes elsewhere with the club only getting a royalty). I would think you need about 7,000 extra paying fans every game to add £2.3m in ticket revenue - roughly speaking that means doubling (or for some games trebling) the home match sales. That isn't happening any time soon.
I think that this is TS' fundamental problem on terms of his goals, aspirations etc. He's probably run all the maths and done the sums and figured out that ON PAPER you can get a lot more money out than he currently is.
BUT he's either too stubborn or naive/idealistic/stupid (delete as you feel accurate) about turning those sums into reality. He's sure that he can succeed where a lot of others have not and will somehow find the football equivalent of the magic money tree. Chances are that he is very wrong on that.
I think it's a very easy mistake to make, if you don't have the on ground Intel.
Can Charlton sell 20,000 tickets for almost every home game of the season. Of course they can.
We sell about 13ish?
7,000 x times £10 profit per ticket x 25ish home games. Equals nearly £2 million. Simple isn't it.
It's like buying a DVD player manufacturer and saying in 2010 we sold a million players. Why did we only sell 1 last year? Obviously didn't try hard enough.
Yes that's being flippant and over the top but I remember reading an article/interview (maybe someone could dig it out) about how Thomas turned round his company by chasing debt that people advised him he should write off. He increased the resource and targeted management of the recovery team and clawed back millions that people had told him he wouldn't get back.
Unless you actually pay people to turn up you won't get 20,000 in the valley, on a bi weekly basis, in league 1. Full stop.
But that should not stop you trying.
In my view there are two ways you can go - offer people a good deal so that more are encouraged to come or ratchet up the prices and get as much money as you can from those who are already committed. A case can be made for either approach, but not both at the same time.
The problem with Sandgaard’s approach, at least as far as the match tickets are concerned, is that he’s gone for Cakeism.
I do think it is a very difficult balance to get right, and there is a risk in lowering prices if you then don’t get an increase in numbers attending. But surely you are not suggesting that there is no point in trying to do anything? I remember fans saying the same thing with the target 10,000 campaign and that it was an unrealistic target. That target looks ridiculously low now.
Who knows what the Club and fans could achieve together, but what I do know is that if you don’t try you definitely won’t improve attendance.
We always seem to charge £10 or £15 for cup games (and you get ‘footy for a fiver’ matches). What’s wrong with making them £12 or £13? Some people were literally put off going to the QPR match because of the £15 price tag. So if £10 is deemed too cheap, try £12 or £13?
I wasn’t put off the QPR game because it was £15. I was put off because for as long as I can remember we haven’t taken cup matches seriously, putting out severely weakened teams, putting in severely sub standard performances. If the manager doesn’t take it seriously then neither will the players. That is unfair on Garner but he, the team, and the ultimately the Club suffered as a result.
Perhaps after the QPR win more will turn up for the next rounds?
Just wondering what effect rising energy prices will have on ticket sales come the winter time. Lowering prices, even a little might help, but season ticket holders might feel hard done by.
Muttley, I agree with a great deal of what you say in your post. However, I think I would describe my feelings as being more resigned and mildly irritated.
I guess it's a fact of life that as you get older you become more cynical and feel like you have seen and heard it all before. So be it politicians, football club owners, whatever, they say a lot but very often don't deliver. A few weeks ago I said in a post that my reaction to TS's pronouncements is simply "show me", i.e. the motto of the State of Missouri. This is my 60th year supporting the club. God knows success has never been a given but at the end of the day this is professional sport. So, whilst playing attractive football is a bonus, winning and achieving things is what it is about.
I like to think I am not a dummy. I had a 40 year career working in finance, treasury, strategic planning, procurement in a large corporation. I simply don't think TS's attempts to reduce losses and increase attendances has a reasonable chance of producing success on the field any time soon. I think a greater level of investment will be required to achieve that. I think his strategy will simply ensure we remain a more financially stable club at League 1 level and I think there are quite a few fans who will be happy to accept that. Sounds boring to me though.
So, I can't get worked up enough to be worried, just resigned and mildly irritated.
Well it doesn't consume my life. It just means I have become extremely negative about my club which manifests itself in club related discussions. I will always support them and will always love them. I have a Charlton tattoo and I am not a tattoo person but to an extent I have fallen a bit out of love with them because IMO they have been run by idiots and crooks for too long. It seems if you don't get one you get the other and I'm not going to cheer that on from the sidelines.
I would go as far as to say that the latest idiot isn't the worst by a long shot. But my expecations of him being our saviour have probably disapointed me the most. Look at my Muttley badge and see an example of the hope I had for Sandgaard. The club is shrinking and if it has the inability to be a Championship club, we could become a Gillingham and over time the Valley will be too big for us, maybe that is what needs to happen but I always dreamed of the Premier League one day and for a short period we got it. Getting bullied and outplayed by Accrington is not up there with things I enjoy.
Comments
Can Charlton sell 20,000 tickets for almost every home game of the season. Of course they can.
We sell about 13ish?
7,000 x times £10 profit per ticket x 25ish home games. Equals nearly £2 million. Simple isn't it.
It's like buying a DVD player manufacturer and saying in 2010 we sold a million players. Why did we only sell 1 last year? Obviously didn't try hard enough.
Yes that's being flippant and over the top but I remember reading an article/interview (maybe someone could dig it out) about how Thomas turned round his company by chasing debt that people advised him he should write off. He increased the resource and targeted management of the recovery team and clawed back millions that people had told him he wouldn't get back.
Unless you actually pay people to turn up you won't get 20,000 in the valley, on a bi weekly basis, in league 1. Full stop.
It's the pragmatic little things that have cost him a lot of money. Buy a center back in January 2021 and half the problems might have gone away.
Of course that wouldn't have guaranteed us promotion but it might have helped. It would have almost certainly have also help the start of the next season.
The awful transfer policies (there have been many) have set the club back years. Now it's a two season project when two years ago it was a one year project.
Now of course I will add the caveat that it's his money and he can choose to spend it as he wishes but by spending it baldy, at the wrong time, it has cost him a lot, my fag packet maths about £10 million, more than it could have done.
Who knows what the Club and fans could achieve together, but what I do know is that if you don’t try you definitely won’t improve attendance.
In short, I don’t believe TS has a business case for the pricing which would stand up to critical examination - but of course in his structure it won’t get any. That doesn’t make him a bad man but it does mean his budgets will be way off, and that ultimately impinges on the players we sign.
People just like to be heard, regardless of the substance
As for his one on ones with the keeper…..the less said the better.
He simply wasn’t a natural goal scorer……end of……sadly.
Let one go, fine - certainly not both
The question is always, can we find more of these easily pleased people and I think there is no evidence that it is possible. A club which has a natural home in the Championship can only lose money and over time fans in the lower leagues. If we become an established league one club that will become our natural place and sadly over the last decade, that seems to be where we are settling. That isn't Sandgaard's fault but it is important we remove the chains of League One sooner rather than later and that is where we have a problem if he is incapable of doing so.
The problem with initiatives to increase fans is not just the plan behind them but the importance that everything else aligns alongside them. Airman was part of the club when it had very ambitious targets which some may have felt were impossible, but what they had alongside a great plan was a club on the up under a terrific manager. And we got promoted to the Premier League.
It worries me when we are told it is possible to double or even triple revenue in League One. It is pie in the sky and just another ridiculous thing to add to the list. We have Airman, who some might have said was over optimistic about what could be done with Target 10,000 and Traget 20,000 telling us there is no plan and indeed I can't see one like so many other little things that add up to a big thing - preventing us getting promoted from a division that is sucking the blood out of us like a leech.
It worries me when I hear stories of chaos within the club, it worries me when I see a team start last season with no goals in it and the owner leading it out playing his song, it worries me when the owner tries to change the name of the women's team to Ladies when they don't want it, it worries me when we had a strikers crisis last season which cost us a lot of points and we go into this with fewer strikers, it worries me when the owner seems to think that the U-23s will solve our issues when you can't bank on it, it happens when and if it happens. It worries when I see stories about a staff member issue that the owner doesn't seem to want to address, it worries me when Jacko was sacked without being given a proper chance and whilst Garner seems to be potentially decent, he has to line up with the system he signed up to like Adkins did. I believe Jacko was sacked because he didn't. It worries me when Sandgaard talks crap and I appreciate I should learn to see around some of it but he has got to me. It also worries me when we seem to have money to waste on players but none to spend on glaring needs.
If I am supposed to be happy about all that because we are, and indeed we are, playing some more attractive football, then sorry I can't feel it at all.I look at the past and it makes me worry about the future. I look at an owner who I think is out of his depth but he thinks he is a genius. Some think it is a certainty we will get the striker we need but I am concerned that whilst it is blindingly obvious we need one, maybe two, we haven't got him yet and are very likely not to get him at all.
He seems to have been around for a while as he made his debut so young but let's not forget he only turns 19 at the end of this month. He'll get some cup games but i don't think he's really ready to play a serious part in league 1 yet and to me if he's only going to get a few minutes here and there, he'd be better off getting regular football on loan so he can develop better.
If you then have a few injuries and want him in the team ahead of who ever number 6 is, that's fine but I would rather have an older player, who isn't a long term investment be 6th.
I guess it's a fact of life that as you get older you become more cynical and feel like you have seen and heard it all before. So be it politicians, football club owners, whatever, they say a lot but very often don't deliver. A few weeks ago I said in a post that my reaction to TS's pronouncements is simply "show me", i.e. the motto of the State of Missouri. This is my 60th year supporting the club. God knows success has never been a given but at the end of the day this is professional sport. So, whilst playing attractive football is a bonus, winning and achieving things is what it is about.
I like to think I am not a dummy. I had a 40 year career working in finance, treasury, strategic planning, procurement in a large corporation. I simply don't think TS's attempts to reduce losses and increase attendances has a reasonable chance of producing success on the field any time soon. I think a greater level of investment will be required to achieve that. I think his strategy will simply ensure we remain a more financially stable club at League 1 level and I think there are quite a few fans who will be happy to accept that. Sounds boring to me though.
So, I can't get worked up enough to be worried, just resigned and mildly irritated.
I would go as far as to say that the latest idiot isn't the worst by a long shot. But my expecations of him being our saviour have probably disapointed me the most. Look at my Muttley badge and see an example of the hope I had for Sandgaard. The club is shrinking and if it has the inability to be a Championship club, we could become a Gillingham and over time the Valley will be too big for us, maybe that is what needs to happen but I always dreamed of the Premier League one day and for a short period we got it. Getting bullied and outplayed by Accrington is not up there with things I enjoy.