Energy Bills

Jints

I don't have an ideological view on whether utilities should be state owned or private - whatever works best in my view. But I'm amazed that the defauult position of some is that state run agencies are more effcient. The passport office, the DVLA, the Land Registry, border control - they all seem paragons of incompetence and customer disservice as far as I can see.

Chaz Hill

Jints said:

I don't have an ideological view on whether utilities should be state owned or private - whatever works best in my view. But I'm amazed that the defauult position of some is that state run agencies are more effcient. The passport office, the DVLA, the Land Registry, border control - they all seem paragons of incompetence and customer disservice as far as I can see.

Mainly as a result of sub contracting work to the likes of that wonderful example of Private Sector incompetence Serco.

ME14addick

Leroy Ambrose said:

ME14addick said:

MuttleyCAFC said:

I think a big problem was that there were too many operators. Let's be honest, when you change from one provider to another, the gas/electricity comes from the same place. We are paying for discounted prices from companies that have gone bust. This is an industry that needs to be run by one provider for the public and the environment not many providers for the shareholders. Call me a marxist

All the utilities should have remained nationalised and run by the state. We now have private companies making huge profits whilst ordinary people suffer. I used to think that privatisation was a good thing, but it's clear now that privatising the utilities has been very bad for the average person.

Again - I'm stunned that you ever voted Tory

I won't vote Tory ever again.

Jints

Chaz Hill said:

Jints said:

I don't have an ideological view on whether utilities should be state owned or private - whatever works best in my view. But I'm amazed that the defauult position of some is that state run agencies are more effcient. The passport office, the DVLA, the Land Registry, border control - they all seem paragons of incompetence and customer disservice as far as I can see.

Mainly as a result of sub contracting work to the likes of that wonderful example of Private Sector incompetence Serco.

Border control maybe. Not sure you can blame Serco for the others. 

kentaddick

SELR_addicks said:

RaplhMilne said:

LONDON (Reuters) - Major energy traders are taking hundreds of millions of dollars in losses as they scramble to plug a liquefied natural gas (LNG) supply gap after several outages hampered efforts to fill European storage ahead of the winter heating season.

Unplanned disruptions at LNG plants in the United States, Nigeria and Australia have wrong-footed traders, including BP and Shell, forcing them to pay inflated costs for alternative supplies.

BP took a more than $500 million hit to replace LNG cargoes lost after a sudden shutdown of the Freeport LNG plant in Texas in June, industry sources told Reuters.

Both BP and Shell have taken enormous hits from pulling out of Russia due to the war. When COVID kicked off and petrol was 99p, and no one wanted oil, they suffered enormous losses and crash in share price. Shell falling from £23 down to £9. 

This is business good times and bad times. Did the Government let them stop paying tax in the hard times, did they give them public money…. NO

But, now the fact that they are paying 65% tax (including windfall) isn’t enough for some people.  The £400 you are going to get plus whatever else they do, is already being paid for…. By the business, not the state. 

BP will hand billions of pounds to shareholders after tripling its profits to nearly £7bn in the second quarter of the year amid high oil prices during Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, sparking anger from MPs and campaigners as families struggle in the cost of living crisis.

The FTSE 100 oil company on Tuesday said its preferred measure of profit, which it describes as its underlying replacement cost profit, rose to $8.5bn (£6.9bn) between April and June. That is up from $6.2bn in the first three months of the year, and three times BP’s underlying profits of $2.8bn in the second quarter of 2021.

It was the second highest quarterly profit in BP’s history, behind only its $8.8bn underlying profit in the summer of 2008.

Profitting from people suffering ain't alright in my book. 

at least BP pay their taxes in the uk tbf. And would actually be an easy win to tax those profits more.

Chaz Hill

Far too late now but what a pity we didn’t follow the Norwegian model of dealing with ‘our’ North Sea oil and gas instead of the Thatcher model of sell everything off as quickly as possible to the private sector.

kentaddick

I read some where that it's basically inevitable the energy suppliers will be bailed out like the banks were in 2008, which would completely wipe out the headroom for the £20 billion in tax cuts our future PMs have promised.

IdleHans

Jints said:

I don't have an ideological view on whether utilities should be state owned or private - whatever works best in my view. But I'm amazed that the defauult position of some is that state run agencies are more effcient. The passport office, the DVLA, the Land Registry, border control - they all seem paragons of incompetence and customer disservice as far as I can see.

You forgot HMRC. Shambles.

IdleHans

kentaddick said:

SELR_addicks said:

RaplhMilne said:

LONDON (Reuters) - Major energy traders are taking hundreds of millions of dollars in losses as they scramble to plug a liquefied natural gas (LNG) supply gap after several outages hampered efforts to fill European storage ahead of the winter heating season.

Unplanned disruptions at LNG plants in the United States, Nigeria and Australia have wrong-footed traders, including BP and Shell, forcing them to pay inflated costs for alternative supplies.

BP took a more than $500 million hit to replace LNG cargoes lost after a sudden shutdown of the Freeport LNG plant in Texas in June, industry sources told Reuters.

Both BP and Shell have taken enormous hits from pulling out of Russia due to the war. When COVID kicked off and petrol was 99p, and no one wanted oil, they suffered enormous losses and crash in share price. Shell falling from £23 down to £9. 

This is business good times and bad times. Did the Government let them stop paying tax in the hard times, did they give them public money…. NO

But, now the fact that they are paying 65% tax (including windfall) isn’t enough for some people.  The £400 you are going to get plus whatever else they do, is already being paid for…. By the business, not the state. 

BP will hand billions of pounds to shareholders after tripling its profits to nearly £7bn in the second quarter of the year amid high oil prices during Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, sparking anger from MPs and campaigners as families struggle in the cost of living crisis.

The FTSE 100 oil company on Tuesday said its preferred measure of profit, which it describes as its underlying replacement cost profit, rose to $8.5bn (£6.9bn) between April and June. That is up from $6.2bn in the first three months of the year, and three times BP’s underlying profits of $2.8bn in the second quarter of 2021.

It was the second highest quarterly profit in BP’s history, behind only its $8.8bn underlying profit in the summer of 2008.

Profitting from people suffering ain't alright in my book. 

at least BP pay their taxes in the uk tbf. And would actually be an easy win to tax those profits more.

Even speaking as a BP shareholder (v modest) I think this is the way to go, and I wouldn't complain in the slightest. Apply the taxes when required and remove them whenever energy prices fall back. 

I only bought them as a hedge against high fuel prices anyway, and I've made enough profit to keep my house warm for almost half an hour.

ShootersHillGuru

Stu_of_Kunming said:

Bournemouth Addick said:

bobmunro said:

blackpool72 said:

Starmer should now announce that Labour will nationalise all the gas and electricity companies and ensure that these type of price rises will not happen under their watch.
A major vote winner in my opinion. 

Apologies for getting political. 

That won't necessarily help. The price rises are linked to the global wholesale prices and it is the likes of BP and Shell (the exploration companies) that are making the big profits. The operating companies like Scottish Power (my provider) are passing on the costs they are incurring. BP and Shell can sell into the global market at the prevailing price. 

If the Government want to stop the price cap going up then they are going to have to subsidise the operating companies (and that's not an unreasonable thing to do) otherwise they will all go pop.  

Is this a bad thing necessarily? If their business is unsustainable without causing massive, unprecedented harm to millions of households and businesses across the UK then maybe they ought not to be in business.

I'm playing devil's advocate a little but what's to stop the government soaking up those businesses that fail as the buyer of last resort and starting the process of returning our nationally important utilities into public ownership?

How much would the prices change if BP and Shell keep their prices the same? 

They won’t just drop their prices because the UK gov are in charge, so the new publicly owned companies would still trade at a loss and require subsidisation. 

Nationalisation Shell and BP, could, quite rightly start a war. 

Do you mean like the war currently raging in France when EDF was nationalised?

valleynick66

Well of course the tax take from the likes of BP and Shell will increase just by virtue of the increased profits and then the already imposed windfall element. So it comes down to whether that sum is enough to help Joe public offset the costs however the government chooses to do that - cash payments, freezing or reducing the cap etc. 

They can only ever rob Peter to pay Paul. 

What mechanism ultimately  doesn’t really matter as long as it’s fair and directed where needed. 

Calling for more tax may be right but may not be necessary if the tax take expected / forecast covers the sums needed. Not sure we’ve seen the forecast sums and how that’s being spent. If it isn’t they will inevitably have to tax more as Joe public can’t be stretched further. 

Isn’t the only long term answer to influence the market price via OPEC members etc. ?

bobmunro

ShootersHillGuru said:

Stu_of_Kunming said:

Bournemouth Addick said:

bobmunro said:

blackpool72 said:

Starmer should now announce that Labour will nationalise all the gas and electricity companies and ensure that these type of price rises will not happen under their watch.
A major vote winner in my opinion. 

Apologies for getting political. 

That won't necessarily help. The price rises are linked to the global wholesale prices and it is the likes of BP and Shell (the exploration companies) that are making the big profits. The operating companies like Scottish Power (my provider) are passing on the costs they are incurring. BP and Shell can sell into the global market at the prevailing price. 

If the Government want to stop the price cap going up then they are going to have to subsidise the operating companies (and that's not an unreasonable thing to do) otherwise they will all go pop.  

Is this a bad thing necessarily? If their business is unsustainable without causing massive, unprecedented harm to millions of households and businesses across the UK then maybe they ought not to be in business.

I'm playing devil's advocate a little but what's to stop the government soaking up those businesses that fail as the buyer of last resort and starting the process of returning our nationally important utilities into public ownership?

How much would the prices change if BP and Shell keep their prices the same? 

They won’t just drop their prices because the UK gov are in charge, so the new publicly owned companies would still trade at a loss and require subsidisation. 

Nationalisation Shell and BP, could, quite rightly start a war. 

Do you mean like the war currently raging in France when EDF was nationalised?

EDF primarily uses gas to generate electricity - also nuclear and other renewables. They will be paying for that gas on the wholesale market at the ever increasing wholesale prices. The French Government are taking the hit - perhaps as should ours.

MrWalker

As I said last week. Who will eventually end up paying?

Stu_of_Kunming

ShootersHillGuru said:

Stu_of_Kunming said:

Bournemouth Addick said:

bobmunro said:

blackpool72 said:

Starmer should now announce that Labour will nationalise all the gas and electricity companies and ensure that these type of price rises will not happen under their watch.
A major vote winner in my opinion. 

Apologies for getting political. 

That won't necessarily help. The price rises are linked to the global wholesale prices and it is the likes of BP and Shell (the exploration companies) that are making the big profits. The operating companies like Scottish Power (my provider) are passing on the costs they are incurring. BP and Shell can sell into the global market at the prevailing price. 

If the Government want to stop the price cap going up then they are going to have to subsidise the operating companies (and that's not an unreasonable thing to do) otherwise they will all go pop.  

Is this a bad thing necessarily? If their business is unsustainable without causing massive, unprecedented harm to millions of households and businesses across the UK then maybe they ought not to be in business.

I'm playing devil's advocate a little but what's to stop the government soaking up those businesses that fail as the buyer of last resort and starting the process of returning our nationally important utilities into public ownership?

How much would the prices change if BP and Shell keep their prices the same? 

They won’t just drop their prices because the UK gov are in charge, so the new publicly owned companies would still trade at a loss and require subsidisation. 

Nationalisation Shell and BP, could, quite rightly start a war. 

Do you mean like the war currently raging in France when EDF was nationalised?

You should look into the difference between EDF and Shell / BP

As far as I’m aware EDF don’t source their own oil and gas like BP / Shell, they buy it and the French government subsidise the sale. That is something we could and should be doing. 

Stu_of_Kunming

The idea that foreign states will simply allow the Uk to nationalise infrastructure on their sovereign territory is literally brain dead. 

blackpool72

Stu_of_Kunming said:

The idea that foreign states will simply allow the Uk to nationalise infrastructure on their sovereign territory is literally brain dead. 

It's the selling off of our infrastructure to foreign states that was brain dead.

Stu_of_Kunming

blackpool72 said:

Stu_of_Kunming said:

The idea that foreign states will simply allow the Uk to nationalise infrastructure on their sovereign territory is literally brain dead. 

It's the selling off of our infrastructure to foreign states that was brain dead.

Absolutely and nationalising that, I wouldn’t have an issue with, BP and Shell are both international operations though. 

MuttleyCAFC

It isn't realistic to nationalise those two companies. Nothing wrong with working with them though to help lessen the blow which could involve favourable conditions after the crisis. Absolutely we should look to nationalise the utility companies. They should be there for their customers only.

Bailey

MuttleyCAFC said:

It isn't realistic to nationalise those two companies. Nothing wrong with working with them though to help lessen the blow which could involve favourable conditions after the crisis. Absolutely we should look to nationalise the utility companies. They should be there for their customers only.

Mutley, I would ask when you see an end to this crisis ? Totally agree that we should renationlise our utilities and our Railway, although the DFT now run our railway in all but name. Inflation will drop eventually but the prices won't, this crisis is also exasperated by a Labour shortage caused in part but not all by Brexit. Sadly I see this being long term. 

Stu_of_Kunming

MuttleyCAFC said:

It isn't realistic to nationalise those two companies. Nothing wrong with working with them though to help lessen the blow which could involve favourable conditions after the crisis. Absolutely we should look to nationalise the utility companies. They should be there for their customers only.

I absolutely agree with nationalising the utility companies over the long term and subsidising bills in the mean time.

Only those who don’t understand how Shell etc operate are calling for them to be nationalised. 

ShootersHillGuru

Stu_of_Kunming said:

The idea that foreign states will simply allow the Uk to nationalise infrastructure on their sovereign territory is literally brain dead. 

You’re forgetting we’ve taken back control.

cantersaddick

Put this on the other thread. Should have been done decades ago but even 10 years ago there were signs from Russia and the move towards renewables. This should have been an obvious solution.

I'm all for competition in the energy market (water is different in my view) what the government should be doing (and should have started 10 years ago) is setting up an energy firm to compete with the market. It should focus on new green and nuclear infrastructure and aim to grew to become a major supplier. This would at least give people an alternative option and would force existing companies out of their Oligopoly power and to sacrifice a small percentage of excess profits to restrict price increases.

The government can compete successfully in markets - see NEST in pensions market. 

There should also be massive subsidies or even provision of domestic renewables. Every industrial unit with a large roof should have solar panels, domestic solar panels should be everywhere

Athletico Charlton

Just looked at my Octopus energy app which now has a crystal ball setting which says what your monthly payments will be based on current analyst thinking.  According to that my dual bill goes from c £200pcm in August to £1200pcm in Jan!  In a relatively small 1930s suburbia house that is quite the jump!

kentaddick

Athletico Charlton said:

Just looked at my Octopus energy app which now has a crystal ball setting which says what your monthly payments will be based on current analyst thinking.  According to that my dual bill goes from c £200pcm in August to £1200pcm in Jan!  In a relatively small 1930s suburbia house that is quite the jump!

that's utterly mental.

Rob7Lee

Athletico Charlton said:

Just looked at my Octopus energy app which now has a crystal ball setting which says what your monthly payments will be based on current analyst thinking.  According to that my dual bill goes from c £200pcm in August to £1200pcm in Jan!  In a relatively small 1930s suburbia house that is quite the jump!

Thats bonkers and no way correct. Even if I still had my old 1960's boiler which in Dec 21/Jan 22 was costing around £250 a month during the coldest spell wouldn't get to that (5 bed house).

I'd certainly be looking though at the equipment you have. I spent 8k ish on all new plumbing, boiler etc, but reckon I'm saving on average £800-£1k a year on current prices, maybe more, probably double that next year!

Radiators also, Ali one's are far far better but pricey for decent one's.

Lincsaddick

Athletico Charlton said:

Just looked at my Octopus energy app which now has a crystal ball setting which says what your monthly payments will be based on current analyst thinking.  According to that my dual bill goes from c £200pcm in August to £1200pcm in Jan!  In a relatively small 1930s suburbia house that is quite the jump!

so you'll be paying £14,400 a year ? .. a lot wrong there unless your place is a multi roomed hotel or Norman castle and not a 'relatively small' pre WW2 drum

SantaClaus

Give it another 12 months and £14k/year will seem like a bargain.

Lincsaddick

SantaClaus said:

Give it another 12 months and £14k/year will seem like a bargain.

cheaper to kit the family out in mink coats and Inca blankets

cantersaddick

Ski thermals is my plan for this winter. Bit of heating in the morning to take the chill off and a bit in the evening. Rest of the time i'll be wrapped up

Stu_of_Kunming

Athletico Charlton said:

Just looked at my Octopus energy app which now has a crystal ball setting which says what your monthly payments will be based on current analyst thinking.  According to that my dual bill goes from c £200pcm in August to £1200pcm in Jan!  In a relatively small 1930s suburbia house that is quite the jump!

Absolutely insane, my electricity averages out at £8 a months. 

Having no heating definitely help. Honestly can’t see a situation where I could move back to England.