So if I'm correct the current state of play on behind the scenes dressing room harmony is that:
@Covered_End_Lad - has mentioned an incident where Bowyer reduced Williams to tears and other senior pros had to step in.
@MuttleyCAFC - has mentioned that Bowyer is apparently wierd/unsupportive around the younger players.
@J-Block - was told by a player in the dressing room the Bowyer has lost the plot.
If these things are true. The two questions I have are:
Why was the dressing room apparently so great during our promotion year. What's happened to change that ethos.
If things are as bad behind the scenes as people are making out, why would it change under a new set of players, and indeed would good players would even want to come to us?
We need a Matt Holland situation - where he allegedly went in to see the chairman at half time and said “we can’t play for that manager”.
I think the promotion year was an easy one for Bowyer - he had some quality players and couldn’t really go wrong. But let’s not forget, that season he still managed to handle a couple of players badly - Marshall and Fosu spring to mind. He made a hash of last season (yes he did have injury problems, the Southall saga and the Lyle Taylor situation to contend with), but the way he set us up after lockdown was a joke. We had numerous opportunities to get out of jail......Brentford away 1-0 up with 15 left. Makes dreadful substitutions and we lose 2-1. Birmingham away, shocking subs at 1-0 up and we draw.
Speaking of Taylor, Bowyer was pissed off he wasn’t going to play, but he never publicly slaughtered him in the way he has players this season. This is a bloke who left us in the shit, yet still got clapped out of the training ground.
In a nutshell, Bowyer is out of depth, lacks the fundamental man management skills that are needed and doesn’t take any responsibility.
I really hope TS pulls the trigger - if we need to lose tomorrow and Saturday for that to happen, then so be it. I’d take that if it meant we don’t have this poor excuse for a manager come Sunday.
If you want a perfect example of the selective blindness that loyalty causes, some posters are only just realising that Bowyer might not be a very nice person.
So if I'm correct the current state of play on behind the scenes dressing room harmony is that:
@Covered_End_Lad - has mentioned an incident where Bowyer reduced Williams to tears and other senior pros had to step in.
@MuttleyCAFC - has mentioned that Bowyer is apparently wierd/unsupportive around the younger players.
@J-Block - was told by a player in the dressing room the Bowyer has lost the plot.
If these things are true. The two questions I have are:
Why was the dressing room apparently so great during our promotion year. What's happened to change that ethos.
If things are as bad behind the scenes as people are making out, why would it change under a new set of players, and indeed would good players would even want to come to us?
Bowyer has done a 180 from the man we saw in the promotion winning era. From his interviews, tactics, man management the list goes on, he has totally changed.
So if I'm correct the current state of play on behind the scenes dressing room harmony is that:
@Covered_End_Lad - has mentioned an incident where Bowyer reduced Williams to tears and other senior pros had to step in.
@MuttleyCAFC - has mentioned that Bowyer is apparently wierd/unsupportive around the younger players.
@J-Block - was told by a player in the dressing room the Bowyer has lost the plot.
If these things are true. The two questions I have are:
Why was the dressing room apparently so great during our promotion year. What's happened to change that ethos.
If things are as bad behind the scenes as people are making out, why would it change under a new set of players, and indeed would good players would even want to come to us?
We need a Matt Holland situation - where he allegedly matched in to see the chairman at half time and said “we can’t play for that manager”.
I think the promotion year was an easy one for Bowyer - he had some quality players and couldn’t really go wrong. But let’s not forget, that season he still managed to handle a couple of players badly - Marshall and Fosu spring to mind. He made a hash of last season (yes he did have injury problems, the Southall saga and the Lyle Taylor situation to contend with), but the way he set us up after lockdown was a joke. We had numerous opportunities to get out of jail......Brentford away 1-0 up with 15 left. Makes dreadful substitutions and we lose 2-1. Birmingham away, shocking subs at 1-0 up and we draw.
Speaking of Taylor, Bowyer was pissed off he wasn’t going to play, but he never publicly slaughtered him in the way he has players this season. This is a bloke who left us in the shit, yet still got clapped out of the training ground.
In a nutshell, Bowyer is out of depth, lacks the fundamental man management skills that are needed and doesn’t take any responsibility.
I really hope TS pulls the trigger - if we need to lose tomorrow and Saturday for that to happen, then so be it. I’d take that if it meant we don’t have this poor excuse for a manager come Sunday.
I’d forgotten about Fosu. There were signs, but I, and I imagine we all, given how well we were doing thought Fosu being dropped was acceptable.
Perhaps this was correct, however, he has gone onto much better things
So if I'm correct the current state of play on behind the scenes dressing room harmony is that:
@Covered_End_Lad - has mentioned an incident where Bowyer reduced Williams to tears and other senior pros had to step in.
@MuttleyCAFC - has mentioned that Bowyer is apparently wierd/unsupportive around the younger players.
@J-Block - was told by a player in the dressing room the Bowyer has lost the plot.
If these things are true. The two questions I have are:
Why was the dressing room apparently so great during our promotion year. What's happened to change that ethos.
If things are as bad behind the scenes as people are making out, why would it change under a new set of players, and indeed would good players would even want to come to us?
Bowyer has done a 180 from the man we saw in the promotion winning era. From his interviews, tactics, man management the list goes on, he has totally changed.
Has he changed, or is it that he’s not a manager with a plan (or the temperament) for when things start going wrong?
One man's straight talking is another man's bullying. No idea what has gone on or what has been said to who, but we know Bowyer doesn't really sugar coat things, he speaks his mind, even in interviews, and he;s not really too bothered if it ruffles a few feathers. He's quite old school in that respect - entirely possible he's been giving what he probably feels are a few home s truths to players and some of them maybe don't appreciate the way the message is being delivered. Possibly a bit of a generational divide there too - it's a generalization, but people over a certain age always tend to think people under a certain age are a bit soft.
I don't believe Bowyer is a bully or is out to deliberately upset or belittle anyone, but entirely possible that he's too blunt for some people and that his manner has upset some.
Agreed.
A generational clash and different expectations of what is acceptable.
One man's straight talking is another man's bullying. No idea what has gone on or what has been said to who, but we know Bowyer doesn't really sugar coat things, he speaks his mind, even in interviews, and he;s not really too bothered if it ruffles a few feathers. He's quite old school in that respect - entirely possible he's been giving what he probably feels are a few home s truths to players and some of them maybe don't appreciate the way the message is being delivered. Possibly a bit of a generational divide there too - it's a generalization, but people over a certain age always tend to think people under a certain age are a bit soft.
I don't believe Bowyer is a bully or is out to deliberately upset or belittle anyone, but entirely possible that he's too blunt for some people and that his manner has upset some.
Agreed.
A generational clash and different expectations of what is acceptable.
The game has changed. Bowyer’s a dinosaur. Always been a bully, hasn’t he? Wasn’t he convicted for it?
Football managers aren’t above the law where workplace bullying is concerned. Bullies need outing.
recently read an article about Andy Petterson who said he liked Curbs because he wasn’t a bully like most managers. Suggests it’s a massive problem in the game and maybe the next FA initiative.
If you want a perfect example of the selective blindness that loyalty causes, some posters are only just realising that Bowyer might not be a very nice person.
Nailed it - I have noticed this as well. As I have mentioned before, this is the man who:
Banned for 8 weeks by Charlton for his drug habits. Only played 40 odd games before leaving but somehow his time is treated as a messiah
Charged with affray, trashing a fast food restaurant and making racist remarks to the owner.
Once again caught up in an incident with (again) an Asian guy outside a nightclub which he got off with but begs the question why he got himself caught up in the first place.
Fought his own player on the pitch swinging punches left right and centre.
Now multiple rumours of bullying on the training ground.
‘One of our own’? Not in my book.
Powelly may not have been the greatest manager with us Hudders and Southend. But when someone says One of Our Own and Proper Charlton - step forward that man. Ten times classier than what we currently have.
If there’s any truth in this and I believe there is, just purely by the results and lack of performances, then I’m really surprised that TS hasn’t stepped in, surely he’s got enough of his own people to inform him of the situation. Bullying is a terrible thing and needs stamping on, if true, the Bowyer will never regain the respect of the players.
So much supposition being dressed up as fact. Everything people know is based on third hand accounts and the circumstances, detail, background can get lost along the way.
Football dressing rooms where teams are underperfoming are rarely happy dressing rooms
Football dressing rooms will always be to a degree potentially hostile environments
Off top of my head, ask players under Shankly, Ferguson, Clough, Mourinho, Allardyce, Warnock, Wilder, Dyche, Moyes, Pearson, Keane, Hughes, Souness, Strachan Pearce etc on how they treated players. Don’t even bother thinking about European managers like Capello, Sarri etc as they are based purely on discipline and volatility.
Bowyer seems a bit ‘old skool’ In approach. That's not a right or wrong, that’s just his style. He desperately wants to win, he sets standards and he is honest with players who fall short of those standards. It’s not a style I’d personally take but it’s not unique to football. Loads of our fans want Warnock as manager whenever our job comes available.
Ask a 1996 Steve Brown or John Robinson what there thoughts of Curbishley’s management during another spell out the side and I’m sure it won’t have been flattering.
Its an massive leap from what might have been a heated dressing after a defeat and Bowyer laying into Williams for pulling out of a key tackle that led to the defeat, to then get to ‘bully’. That would happen in 95% of dressing rooms.
So if I'm correct the current state of play on behind the scenes dressing room harmony is that:
@Covered_End_Lad - has mentioned an incident where Bowyer reduced Williams to tears and other senior pros had to step in.
@MuttleyCAFC - has mentioned that Bowyer is apparently wierd/unsupportive around the younger players.
@J-Block - was told by a player in the dressing room the Bowyer has lost the plot.
If these things are true. The two questions I have are:
Why was the dressing room apparently so great during our promotion year. What's happened to change that ethos.
If things are as bad behind the scenes as people are making out, why would it change under a new set of players, and indeed would good players would even want to come to us?
Bowyer has done a 180 from the man we saw in the promotion winning era. From his interviews, tactics, man management the list goes on, he has totally changed.
Has he changed, or is it that he’s not a manager with a plan (or the temperament) for when things start going wrong?
I have said previously that I thought that LB was lucky, as proven by the dozen or so players now plying their trade at Championship or higher, in our promotion year.
There had been an under current of reasons/blame for the situation we found ourselves in last season with the likes of Solly and Taylor being the ones at the head of that queue. That then progressed to the extent that he started to hold individuals responsible and accountable for defeats. I questioned the lambasting of Bonne immediately after the game but was told that this was just LB being honest and that the player needs to "grow some" if he didn't like it. This is what he said:
“You can say that’s cost us but Macauley [Bonne] has to score. You can’t keep missing chances like that. Three yards out. Connects with the ball properly and you score. Can’t miss chances like that. It ain’t good enough."
LB might have been right about that but you cannot say that in private let alone public because all it does is to reinforce the doubts a player might have about himself and it also demonstrates a fundamental lack of support from the manager. Do that then to at least a dozen individuals and all of a sudden you have lost the dressing room because those players have no way of responding on the same basis i.e. via the press.
Being a manager is the easiest job in the world when things are going well. Ask Klopp about that. What Klopp hasn't done, though, is hang his players out to dry. The only one that does it at the top level is Mourinho but then that is the reason why he has had nine jobs in 20 years - because he has short term success doing what he does. But he never builds a dynasty because when things go wrong he always blames certain players and then they stop playing for him.
The Court of Charlton Life has found Lee Bowyer guilty of all charges. Thankfully I am sure TS is too intelligent to act on he said she said gossip and will be fully conversant with all the facts. What is without question is that something is seriously amiss and it looks like TS may be forced into a decision a lot sooner than he would have liked
So Bowyer is a bully for wanting to win and speaking honestly, but a random fan tells the team in no uncertain terms how shit they have been at a train station but that is a good thing. Righto.
Bowyer is not getting the best out of these players and TS should have moved him on by now IMO but to cast aspersions based on rumour and no context is totally unfair.
Criticise his management, be concerned about bullying players but to suddenly realise that you never liked him doesn't ring true unless you were one of the few who was concerned about some of his history when he became our manager.
It's going to be interesting to see the number of people who now come out of the woodwork saying 'actually, I've always hated Lee Bowyer, he's always been a racist/thug/bully and I've never agreed with him being manager. I just didn't say anything much over the past 3 years because we were winning the football'. Bold stance bros.
So if I'm correct the current state of play on behind the scenes dressing room harmony is that:
@Covered_End_Lad - has mentioned an incident where Bowyer reduced Williams to tears and other senior pros had to step in.
@MuttleyCAFC - has mentioned that Bowyer is apparently wierd/unsupportive around the younger players.
@J-Block - was told by a player in the dressing room the Bowyer has lost the plot.
If these things are true. The two questions I have are:
Why was the dressing room apparently so great during our promotion year. What's happened to change that ethos.
If things are as bad behind the scenes as people are making out, why would it change under a new set of players, and indeed would good players would even want to come to us?
What’s possibly changed is Lee Bowyer. He’s certainly not that same upbeat, calm supportive, thoughtful fella that took charge back then is he ? That’s not to say the allegations are justified either.
I used to love hearing Bows speak, I'd watch back interviews, sky plussed the training ground programme they done and rewatched a few times.
He was almost gushy about the players club, his ambitions but its been a slow decline since Swansea at home 2019 with nothing really new or inventive on the pitch.
I dug him out a bit at half time of Sunderland game in October and said he needs to step up as a coach which got quite a few LOLs at the time.
After that game we went on a 7 game run but I honestly felt we were poor bar Ipswich away.
I'd love nothing more than for us to win every game and make me look a dickhead but I just fear the players have downed tools.
I'll still watch every game regardless but it's more out of scratching my head and praying we can't be worse than the last game.
There is an awful lot of revisionism about Bowyer this morning, but I go back to what I said at the weekend, he looks like a boxer who has taken one too many punches, and the corners need to do the right thing now take him out of it.
It's going to be interesting to see the number of people who now come out of the woodwork saying 'actually, I've always hated Lee Bowyer, he's always been a racist/thug/bully and I've never agreed with him being manager. I just didn't say anything much over the past 3 years because we were winning the football'. Bold stance bros.
I for one won't be one of those people. I wrote before against rewriting history to devalue his Wembley win as I thought and still think that was a huge achievement.
However, things have gone wrong and he's not coped in recent times. I don't know why exactly and I don't know whether Bowyer then or now is the "real" Lee Bowyer.
But I do know he's not capable of turning it around any more.
Fishing is the problem or lack of it. Think it’s fair to say that historically LB has been quite a volatile character and perhaps it’s fishing that’s calmed him down. He came to us a for me a surprisingly chilled person and it would appear has slowly got worse. Perhaps fishing is Lees’s therapy which sadly isn’t conducive with being a football manager. Just a thought and not meant to be flippant.
It's going to be interesting to see the number of people who now come out of the woodwork saying 'actually, I've always hated Lee Bowyer, he's always been a racist/thug/bully and I've never agreed with him being manager. I just didn't say anything much over the past 3 years because we were winning the football'. Bold stance bros.
3 posters in the previous page have already taken/begun to take this stance. Sadly can only see that increasing as it seems to be the thing to do these days as negativity spreads.
It's going to be interesting to see the number of people who now come out of the woodwork saying 'actually, I've always hated Lee Bowyer, he's always been a racist/thug/bully and I've never agreed with him being manager. I just didn't say anything much over the past 3 years because we were winning the football'. Bold stance bros.
seems to be happening already.
met him a couple of times since he's been manager and he was always willing to have a chat about football with me and the kids.
really sad to see how things are now going and I can only see 1 ending unfortunately.
It's going to be interesting to see the number of people who now come out of the woodwork saying 'actually, I've always hated Lee Bowyer, he's always been a racist/thug/bully and I've never agreed with him being manager. I just didn't say anything much over the past 3 years because we were winning the football'. Bold stance bros.
3 posters in the previous page have already taken/begun to take this stance. Sadly can only see that increasing as it seems to be the thing to do these days as negativity spreads.
Disappoints me as whilst Im sure few very of our fanbase have done as bad (if not worse) as Bowyer did in his career... It would surprise me if we have a lot of saints who dont have a period in their lives that they're not proud of, I know I do!!
Who are we to decide if someone isnt allowed to have redemption from those actions and should be forever scarred by the stupidity of those moments?
If you want a perfect example of the selective blindness that loyalty causes, some posters are only just realising that Bowyer might not be a very nice person.
Nailed it - I have noticed this as well. As I have mentioned before, this is the man who:
Banned for 8 weeks by Charlton for his drug habits. Only played 40 odd games before leaving but somehow his time is treated as a messiah
Charged with affray, trashing a fast food restaurant and making racist remarks to the owner.
Once again caught up in an incident with (again) an Asian guy outside a nightclub which he got off with but begs the question why he got himself caught up in the first place.
Fought his own player on the pitch swinging punches left right and centre.
Now multiple rumours of bullying on the training ground.
‘One of our own’? Not in my book.
Powelly may not have been the greatest manager with us Hudders and Southend. But when someone says One of Our Own and Proper Charlton - step forward that man. Ten times classier than what we currently have.
I never really understood the praise he gets when parker generally gets pelters but they both moved on to better things in similar situations. Parer played 3x as many games as Bowyer also.
Very different in tone to the "Bowyer needs more time" piece.
Still balanced though.
Good article, again. Remember that this chap gets the chance to interview Bowyer and also view things as a real "outsider" but with good knowledge of the club, setup and fanbase.
As the form and situation is not changing, I expect the tone to change.
Comments
Speaking of Taylor, Bowyer was pissed off he wasn’t going to play, but he never publicly slaughtered him in the way he has players this season. This is a bloke who left us in the shit, yet still got clapped out of the training ground.
Perhaps this was correct, however, he has gone onto much better things
The game has changed. Bowyer’s a dinosaur. Always been a bully, hasn’t he? Wasn’t he convicted for it?
Football managers aren’t above the law where workplace bullying is concerned. Bullies need outing.
recently read an article about Andy Petterson who said he liked Curbs because he wasn’t a bully like most managers. Suggests it’s a massive problem in the game and maybe the next FA initiative.
Banned for 8 weeks by Charlton for his drug habits. Only played 40 odd games before leaving but somehow his time is treated as a messiah
Charged with affray, trashing a fast food restaurant and making racist remarks to the owner.
Once again caught up in an incident with (again) an Asian guy outside a nightclub which he got off with but begs the question why he got himself caught up in the first place.
Fought his own player on the pitch swinging punches left right and centre.
Now multiple rumours of bullying on the training ground.
‘One of our own’? Not in my book.
Powelly may not have been the greatest manager with us Hudders and Southend. But when someone says One of Our Own and Proper Charlton - step forward that man. Ten times classier than what we currently have.
Very different in tone to the "Bowyer needs more time" piece.
Still balanced though.
Football dressing rooms where teams are underperfoming are rarely happy dressing rooms
Football dressing rooms will always be to a degree potentially hostile environments
Off top of my head, ask players under Shankly, Ferguson, Clough, Mourinho, Allardyce, Warnock, Wilder, Dyche, Moyes, Pearson, Keane, Hughes, Souness, Strachan Pearce etc on how they treated players. Don’t even bother thinking about European managers like Capello, Sarri etc as they are based purely on discipline and volatility.
Bowyer seems a bit ‘old skool’ In approach. That's not a right or wrong, that’s just his style. He desperately wants to win, he sets standards and he is honest with players who fall short of those standards. It’s not a style I’d personally take but it’s not unique to football. Loads of our fans want Warnock as manager whenever our job comes available.
Ask a 1996 Steve Brown or John Robinson what there thoughts of Curbishley’s management during another spell out the side and I’m sure it won’t have been flattering.
Its an massive leap from what might have been a heated dressing after a defeat and Bowyer laying into Williams for pulling out of a key tackle that led to the defeat, to then get to ‘bully’. That would happen in 95% of dressing rooms.
There had been an under current of reasons/blame for the situation we found ourselves in last season with the likes of Solly and Taylor being the ones at the head of that queue. That then progressed to the extent that he started to hold individuals responsible and accountable for defeats. I questioned the lambasting of Bonne immediately after the game but was told that this was just LB being honest and that the player needs to "grow some" if he didn't like it. This is what he said:
“You can say that’s cost us but Macauley [Bonne] has to score. You can’t keep missing chances like that. Three yards out. Connects with the ball properly and you score. Can’t miss chances like that. It ain’t good enough."
LB might have been right about that but you cannot say that in private let alone public because all it does is to reinforce the doubts a player might have about himself and it also demonstrates a fundamental lack of support from the manager. Do that then to at least a dozen individuals and all of a sudden you have lost the dressing room because those players have no way of responding on the same basis i.e. via the press.
Being a manager is the easiest job in the world when things are going well. Ask Klopp about that. What Klopp hasn't done, though, is hang his players out to dry. The only one that does it at the top level is Mourinho but then that is the reason why he has had nine jobs in 20 years - because he has short term success doing what he does. But he never builds a dynasty because when things go wrong he always blames certain players and then they stop playing for him.
Still , passes the time
Thankfully I am sure TS is too intelligent to act on he said she said gossip and will be fully conversant with all the facts.
What is without question is that something is seriously amiss and it looks like TS may be forced into a decision a lot sooner than he would have liked
Bowyer is not getting the best out of these players and TS should have moved him on by now IMO but to cast aspersions based on rumour and no context is totally unfair.
He was almost gushy about the players club, his ambitions but its been a slow decline since Swansea at home 2019 with nothing really new or inventive on the pitch.
I dug him out a bit at half time of Sunderland game in October and said he needs to step up as a coach which got quite a few LOLs at the time.
After that game we went on a 7 game run but I honestly felt we were poor bar Ipswich away.
I'd love nothing more than for us to win every game and make me look a dickhead but I just fear the players have downed tools.
I'll still watch every game regardless but it's more out of scratching my head and praying we can't be worse than the last game.
However, things have gone wrong and he's not coped in recent times. I don't know why exactly and I don't know whether Bowyer then or now is the "real" Lee Bowyer.
But I do know he's not capable of turning it around any more.
met him a couple of times since he's been manager and he was always willing to have a chat about football with me and the kids.
really sad to see how things are now going and I can only see 1 ending unfortunately.
Who are we to decide if someone isnt allowed to have redemption from those actions and should be forever scarred by the stupidity of those moments?
As the form and situation is not changing, I expect the tone to change.