It checks the crucial moments - like tries being scored, or wickets being taken. Fulham scored a goal because of that wrongly awarded free kick that should have been our throw, as far as I can tell, under current rules, that would not have been looked at? It became a crucial moment as it cost Charlton two vital points. All, or nothing. Also - just because it doesn't check everything in every sport, that does not mean that it is the right thing to do.
Like I have said previously, if you are happy to wait before a bloke in a studio in west London tells you that you are allowed to celebrate, then you do not have football in your heart or soul. Flaws and errors make up part of the beautiful game. If people want perfection, then find another passtime, leave ours alone.
Trust me, football is comfortably “in my heart and soul”, thanks for the concern. I would just quite like it to be played by the laws of the game. Plus I’m young enough not to be scared by change.
Like I have said previously, if you are happy to wait before a bloke in a studio in west London tells you that you are allowed to celebrate, then you do not have football in your heart or soul.
The VAR check didn’t stop West Ham fans, players and coaching staff from going mental at Bramall Lane the other day.
Honestly think this one is a bit of myth. Disallowed goals happened before VAR.
Someone else may have said this, but I wonder if the problem with VAR occurs when you have to consider two things, neither of which are fixed. So goal line technology works because the goal line is fixed- the question then is, is the whole of the ball over the whole of the line? Same in tennis, is the ball over the line, it’s either in or out as a result. Same with LBW in cricket (where the wicket is fixed).
Trouble with offsides is that the ball is moving and the players are moving, there is no fixed element which then makes it harder to call. Maybe VAR should only be used for things like mistaken identify, serious foul play missed by the onfield officials, and penalties where it is unclear if it is inside or outside the box. Ditch it for everything else, let the onfield and 4th officials make those decisions.
Like I have said previously, if you are happy to wait before a bloke in a studio in west London tells you that you are allowed to celebrate, then you do not have football in your heart or soul.
The VAR check didn’t stop West Ham fans, players and coaching staff from going mental at Bramall Lane the other day.
Honestly think this one is a bit of myth. Disallowed goals happened before VAR.
The difference is when you started celebrating you instantly stopped after looking over at the lino holding his flag up or looking towards the ref who hasn't point to the centre circle. The celebrations were over within seconds.
Now what's happening is the ref is pointing to the centre circle giving the goal and the lino is running back to the halfway line. Players and fans going nuts, then walk back to take kick off only for an armpit in an offside position to go to var.
It checks the crucial moments - like tries being scored, or wickets being taken. Fulham scored a goal because of that wrongly awarded free kick that should have been our throw, as far as I can tell, under current rules, that would not have been looked at? It became a crucial moment as it cost Charlton two vital points. All, or nothing. Also - just because it doesn't check everything in every sport, that does not mean that it is the right thing to do.
Like I have said previously, if you are happy to wait before a bloke in a studio in west London tells you that you are allowed to celebrate, then you do not have football in your heart or soul. Flaws and errors make up part of the beautiful game. If people want perfection, then find another passtime, leave ours alone.
Trust me, football is comfortably “in my heart and soul”, thanks for the concern. I would just quite like it to be played by the laws of the game. Plus I’m young enough not to be scared by change.
I hate VAR but I can't see why it can't be used for all decisions like the infamous Fulham throw in for ANY immediate and obvious errors.
Why is it limited to just goals and penalty decisions?
If the referee has missed something just tell him and get on with the bloody game. Why does it have to take so long and be displayed on a screen like someone has just landed on the moon.
Football is not the same as cricket or tennis or even rugby. It does not stop. All we need to do is cut out obvious errors as soon as they happen. I don't want a forensic scientist involved in each decision.
Like I have said previously, if you are happy to wait before a bloke in a studio in west London tells you that you are allowed to celebrate, then you do not have football in your heart or soul.
The VAR check didn’t stop West Ham fans, players and coaching staff from going mental at Bramall Lane the other day.
Honestly think this one is a bit of myth. Disallowed goals happened before VAR.
The difference is when you started celebrating you instantly stopped after looking over at the lino holding his flag up or looking towards the ref who hasn't point to the centre circle. The celebrations were over within seconds.
Now what's happening is the ref is pointing to the centre circle giving the goal and the lino is running back to the halfway line. Players and fans going nuts, then walk back to take kick off only for an armpit in an offside position to go to var.
Callum - that is exactly what I meant, your example is precisely what is wrong. ORH's excellent explanation is very similar to what I have said before in either this or the other VAR thread. It's not just the fans, the players go from euphoria to bitter disappointment in an moment. If that moment is a second or two, you can live with that. If it's minutes, the psychological effects on both teams can also have a huge effect on the game.
Going back to the Fulham thing, and @se9addick 's comments. Charlton could have been relegated by one point that season. It has happened in the past to teams, it will happen again. It could all hinge on a decision like that - you won't know until the fat lady has sung on that last day. As I have said before, you will hear the same people who wanted VAR in the first place saying "Well we can use it for that decision, the technology is there, why can't we use it for this decision?". It comes back to all or nothing - much as @stevexreeve has said above. It then becomes a different game - one for OCD sufferers in my opinion...
Who decides on "clear and obvious"? At some point there is a line between c and o and not c and o. Where that line is, once again, goes back to being a matter of opinion, not a fact. VAR just gives someone elses opinion. Why not leave it in the hands of the referee?
The examples of Henri and Richardson are good examples of huge errors. They are two in over thirty years. Does football need the whole VAR technology to avoid one error every 15 years?
I am not "scared" by change, I welcome it if it makes sense - like goal line technology, which establishes a fact. This is spoiling my enjoyment of football, and many others feel the same. That is why I am against it. If your enjoyment of football is enshrined in the interpretation of the laws being how you want them to be all the time, then I stand by my claim that you have not got the heart and soul of football in you.
It checks the crucial moments - like tries being scored, or wickets being taken. Fulham scored a goal because of that wrongly awarded free kick that should have been our throw, as far as I can tell, under current rules, that would not have been looked at? It became a crucial moment as it cost Charlton two vital points. All, or nothing. Also - just because it doesn't check everything in every sport, that does not mean that it is the right thing to do.
Like I have said previously, if you are happy to wait before a bloke in a studio in west London tells you that you are allowed to celebrate, then you do not have football in your heart or soul. Flaws and errors make up part of the beautiful game. If people want perfection, then find another passtime, leave ours alone.
Trust me, football is comfortably “in my heart and soul”, thanks for the concern. I would just quite like it to be played by the laws of the game. Plus I’m young enough not to be scared by change.
I got called a dinosaur at work by a 'youngen' baring in mind I ain't an old git at 32, all because I was slating var before it came into the premier league.
He said its because you don't like change. He supports man united and has been to old Trafford once at 25 years old so only watches on tv and doesn't find himself hugging random people when scoring a last minute winner.
4 months later and he has gone full circle telling me how var is a disgrace. Haha.
So se9, Callum etc, honestly are you a fan of var because I cant get my head around how anyone can enjoy it as it is.
It checks the crucial moments - like tries being scored, or wickets being taken. Fulham scored a goal because of that wrongly awarded free kick that should have been our throw, as far as I can tell, under current rules, that would not have been looked at? It became a crucial moment as it cost Charlton two vital points. All, or nothing. Also - just because it doesn't check everything in every sport, that does not mean that it is the right thing to do.
Like I have said previously, if you are happy to wait before a bloke in a studio in west London tells you that you are allowed to celebrate, then you do not have football in your heart or soul. Flaws and errors make up part of the beautiful game. If people want perfection, then find another passtime, leave ours alone.
Trust me, football is comfortably “in my heart and soul”, thanks for the concern. I would just quite like it to be played by the laws of the game. Plus I’m young enough not to be scared by change.
"Young enough not to be scared by change".
How insulting. What a twat.
Dagger through the heart.
What? You actually just look a twat. It has nothing to do with a person's age. Open your mind.
It checks the crucial moments - like tries being scored, or wickets being taken. Fulham scored a goal because of that wrongly awarded free kick that should have been our throw, as far as I can tell, under current rules, that would not have been looked at? It became a crucial moment as it cost Charlton two vital points. All, or nothing. Also - just because it doesn't check everything in every sport, that does not mean that it is the right thing to do.
Like I have said previously, if you are happy to wait before a bloke in a studio in west London tells you that you are allowed to celebrate, then you do not have football in your heart or soul. Flaws and errors make up part of the beautiful game. If people want perfection, then find another passtime, leave ours alone.
Trust me, football is comfortably “in my heart and soul”, thanks for the concern. I would just quite like it to be played by the laws of the game. Plus I’m young enough not to be scared by change.
"Young enough not to be scared by change".
How insulting. What a twat.
Dagger through the heart.
What? You actually just look a twat. It has nothing to do with a person's age. Open your mind.
It checks the crucial moments - like tries being scored, or wickets being taken. Fulham scored a goal because of that wrongly awarded free kick that should have been our throw, as far as I can tell, under current rules, that would not have been looked at? It became a crucial moment as it cost Charlton two vital points. All, or nothing. Also - just because it doesn't check everything in every sport, that does not mean that it is the right thing to do.
Like I have said previously, if you are happy to wait before a bloke in a studio in west London tells you that you are allowed to celebrate, then you do not have football in your heart or soul. Flaws and errors make up part of the beautiful game. If people want perfection, then find another passtime, leave ours alone.
Trust me, football is comfortably “in my heart and soul”, thanks for the concern. I would just quite like it to be played by the laws of the game. Plus I’m young enough not to be scared by change.
"Young enough not to be scared by change".
How insulting. What a twat.
Dagger through the heart.
I'm in my mid 20s and detest VAR. So any notion that anyone who dislikes it must be some crusty old dinosaur can be put to bed. Or does being scared of change start as soon as you leave your teens?
It checks the crucial moments - like tries being scored, or wickets being taken. Fulham scored a goal because of that wrongly awarded free kick that should have been our throw, as far as I can tell, under current rules, that would not have been looked at? It became a crucial moment as it cost Charlton two vital points. All, or nothing. Also - just because it doesn't check everything in every sport, that does not mean that it is the right thing to do.
Like I have said previously, if you are happy to wait before a bloke in a studio in west London tells you that you are allowed to celebrate, then you do not have football in your heart or soul. Flaws and errors make up part of the beautiful game. If people want perfection, then find another passtime, leave ours alone.
Trust me, football is comfortably “in my heart and soul”, thanks for the concern. I would just quite like it to be played by the laws of the game. Plus I’m young enough not to be scared by change.
"Young enough not to be scared by change".
How insulting. What a twat.
Dagger through the heart.
I'm in my mid 20s and detest VAR. So any notion that anyone who dislikes it must be some crusty old dinosaur can be put to bed. Or does being scared of change start as soon as you leave your teens?
Oi not so much of the crusty, dinosaur I can handle 😉
Yesterday I went to my first ever game where VAR was used. It seemed a very alien experience to be honest. It was used to disallow a goal and then give a penalty which evened things out in the end. Can’t say as I’m a fan but I guess you’d get used to it, but feel it takes something away from the game. Football is about the ups and downs and the controversy of “that was handball”! Or significantly “that throw in was given the wrong way” so on the face of it after one game I’m not that impressed.
I got called a dinosaur at work by a 'youngen' baring in mind I ain't an old git at 32, all because I was slating var before it came into the premier league.
He said its because you don't like change. He supports man united and has been to old Trafford once at 25 years old so only watches on tv and doesn't find himself hugging random people when scoring a last minute winner.
4 months later and he has gone full circle telling me how var is a disgrace. Haha.
So se9, Callum etc, honestly are you a fan of var because I cant get my head around how anyone can enjoy it as it is.
In it’s current form, of course not because it’s not winning over the fans but I do see the potential and think it’s worth refining until the right balance is found.
VAR was brought in to sort out clear and obvious errors..like handball in the penalty box that the officials couldn't see and players who were yards offside but not flagged, not for deciding whether someone is offside who because he has a boil on his nose is offside, or for going back 5 mins to see if an infringement somewhere else can call it off... Further it hasn't been consistent with the officials doing the checks either... As lots have said should be matters of fact not opinion...
Fine tuning will make it worse with the FA we have...
If the game is going to persist with VAR I would like to see the Law changed to the extent that there has to be daylight between the attacker and the defender for it be offside i.e. if any part of the body is level then the attacker is deemed onside. VAR decisions would, generally speaking, be far clearer and the game would be rewarding, rather than penalising, an attacker.
The Law was changed before as level used to be offside so why not go that one step further?
FIFA are looking to bring this change in at their meeting on 29th February and if passed will be in place on 1st June - 12 days before the Euro 2020.
Can only see positives in terms of more goals being scored and clarity of decision making.
I have always thought the sensible introduction of VAR would be a good thing. Other sports seem to have managed to do it well. But Football at the higher levels is more about corruption and a by product of that is the people running the game at European and World level are self interested idiots riding a gravy train. It is the idiot part that applies to VAR. There may be different ways to apply it successfully, but you need to get a small group of sensible people (ex players would be my suggestion) and get them to come up with and tweak something that works well.
I think the first thing to acknowledge is that you can't make decisions 100% fair. There is a subjective element to many decisions. Ultimately the ref should have the final say. It seems obvious to me that if a team thinks the ref has got something material to the result of the game wrong they should have the opportunity to ask them to look at it again. It shouldn't be another ref as that puts pressure on the ref. If another ref suggests the ref looks at it again, it is suggesting he might have got it wrong.
England won a test match against Australia last summer because the umpires made an error. They couldn't challenge the decision because they had wasted their appeal not long before. Nobody made any fuss about the injustice of it, not even the Aussies. They accepted it and along with that were critical of themselves. Wrong decision but no controversy which there may have been had there not been a review system. That is how it should work in football. Give each team one appeal and they keep it if they are right. If they waste it, they cant complain if it bites them on the bum later. The ref is not under the same pressure and whilst not being fully fair (which is unachievable) the game is fairer and there is a mechanism to prevent a massive injustice. Then let the ref manage the game. I'm sure refs will like this as they will accept they can miss things and this will help if that is the case, and they can actually ref a game not massively differently to how they have before VAR.
I have always thought the sensible introduction of VAR would be a good thing. Other sports seem to have managed to do it well. But Football at the higher levels is more about corruption and a by product of that is the people running the game at European and World level are self interested idiots riding a gravy train. It is the idiot part that applies to VAR. There may be different ways to apply it successfully, but you need to get a small group of sensible people (ex players would be my suggestion) and get them to come up with and tweak something that works well.
I think the first thing to acknowledge is that you can't make decisions 100% fair. There is a subjective element to many decisions. Ultimately the ref should have the final say. It seems obvious to me that if a team thinks the ref has got something material to the result of the game wrong they should have the opportunity to ask them to look at it again. It shouldn't be another ref as that puts pressure on the ref. If another ref suggests the ref looks at it again, it is suggesting he might have got it wrong.
England won a test match against Australia last summer because the umpires made an error. They couldn't challenge the decision because they had wasted their appeal not long before. Nobody made any fuss about the injustice of it, not even the Aussies. They accepted it and along with that were critical of themselves. Wrong decision but no controversy which there may have been had there not been a review system. That is how it should work in football. Give each team one appeal and they keep it if they are right. If they waste it, they cant complain if it bites them on the bum later. The ref is not under the same pressure and whilst not being fully fair (which is unachievable) the game is fairer and there is a mechanism to prevent a massive injustice. Then let the ref manage the game. I'm sure refs will like this as they will accept they can miss things and this will help if that is the case, and they can actually ref a game not massively differently to how they have before VAR.
Challenges work absolutely fine in stop start sports like Cricket or American Football, where there is 15/20 seconds between plays to check before challenging. It doesn't in a free flowing sport like Football
To add to that point, NFL teams employ people in the booths to review calls and relay that down to head coach to appeal the call, and it doesn't work, look at the shambles around Pass Interference this season
Agree, away fans go mental ( forget for a mo it’s WH) then that.
F that for football
After 5 seconds of watching the celebrations, I just thought to myself, VAR surely can't muck this up can they? He's miles onside. Literally can't celebrate without fearing the worst
Our goal at Wembley could well have been ruled out by var. Imagine that.
Comments
Honestly think this one is a bit of myth. Disallowed goals happened before VAR.
of the line? Same in tennis, is the ball over the line, it’s either in or out as a result. Same with LBW in cricket (where the wicket is fixed).
Trouble with offsides is that the ball is moving and the players are moving, there is no fixed element which then makes it harder to call. Maybe VAR should only be used for things like mistaken identify, serious foul play missed by the onfield officials, and penalties where it is unclear if it is inside or outside the box. Ditch it for everything else, let the onfield and 4th officials make those decisions.
Now what's happening is the ref is pointing to the centre circle giving the goal and the lino is running back to the halfway line. Players and fans going nuts, then walk back to take kick off only for an armpit in an offside position to go to var.
How insulting. What a twat.
Why is it limited to just goals and penalty decisions?
If the referee has missed something just tell him and get on with the bloody game. Why does it have to take so long and be displayed on a screen like someone has just landed on the moon.
Football is not the same as cricket or tennis or even rugby. It does not stop. All we need to do is cut out obvious errors as soon as they happen. I don't want a forensic scientist involved in each decision.
Callum - that is exactly what I meant, your example is precisely what is wrong. ORH's excellent explanation is very similar to what I have said before in either this or the other VAR thread. It's not just the fans, the players go from euphoria to bitter disappointment in an moment. If that moment is a second or two, you can live with that. If it's minutes, the psychological effects on both teams can also have a huge effect on the game.
Going back to the Fulham thing, and @se9addick 's comments. Charlton could have been relegated by one point that season. It has happened in the past to teams, it will happen again. It could all hinge on a decision like that - you won't know until the fat lady has sung on that last day. As I have said before, you will hear the same people who wanted VAR in the first place saying "Well we can use it for that decision, the technology is there, why can't we use it for this decision?". It comes back to all or nothing - much as @stevexreeve has said above. It then becomes a different game - one for OCD sufferers in my opinion...
Who decides on "clear and obvious"? At some point there is a line between c and o and not c and o. Where that line is, once again, goes back to being a matter of opinion, not a fact. VAR just gives someone elses opinion. Why not leave it in the hands of the referee?
The examples of Henri and Richardson are good examples of huge errors. They are two in over thirty years. Does football need the whole VAR technology to avoid one error every 15 years?
I am not "scared" by change, I welcome it if it makes sense - like goal line technology, which establishes a fact. This is spoiling my enjoyment of football, and many others feel the same. That is why I am against it. If your enjoyment of football is enshrined in the interpretation of the laws being how you want them to be all the time, then I stand by my claim that you have not got the heart and soul of football in you.
He said its because you don't like change. He supports man united and has been to old Trafford once at 25 years old so only watches on tv and doesn't find himself hugging random people when scoring a last minute winner.
4 months later and he has gone full circle telling me how var is a disgrace. Haha.
So se9, Callum etc, honestly are you a fan of var because I cant get my head around how anyone can enjoy it as it is.
Fine tuning will make it worse with the FA we have...
Norwich red card given on review - yellow card changed to a red.
Wolves penalty given on review - ref had waved play on.
(I'm not mentioning the Palarse decision)
Can only see positives in terms of more goals being scored and clarity of decision making.
I think the first thing to acknowledge is that you can't make decisions 100% fair. There is a subjective element to many decisions. Ultimately the ref should have the final say. It seems obvious to me that if a team thinks the ref has got something material to the result of the game wrong they should have the opportunity to ask them to look at it again. It shouldn't be another ref as that puts pressure on the ref. If another ref suggests the ref looks at it again, it is suggesting he might have got it wrong.
England won a test match against Australia last summer because the umpires made an error. They couldn't challenge the decision because they had wasted their appeal not long before. Nobody made any fuss about the injustice of it, not even the Aussies. They accepted it and along with that were critical of themselves. Wrong decision but no controversy which there may have been had there not been a review system. That is how it should work in football. Give each team one appeal and they keep it if they are right. If they waste it, they cant complain if it bites them on the bum later. The ref is not under the same pressure and whilst not being fully fair (which is unachievable) the game is fairer and there is a mechanism to prevent a massive injustice. Then let the ref manage the game. I'm sure refs will like this as they will accept they can miss things and this will help if that is the case, and they can actually ref a game not massively differently to how they have before VAR.