Karlan and Vetokele have different attributes. Karlan's record speaks for itself this season and should be applauded. But personally. I'd have a fully fit Vetokele all day long. I wasn't sure we would see that, but it looks like we are!
On a wider point. We have had games were the squad was depleted and that has cost us, but our best team is better than the League winning team IMO. By quite a distance too. What scares me is that the Charlton story in recent years is one of lost opportunities. We have a massive one now. I think a small amount of strengthening and we can go up again next season if we manage this situation right.
Will we grab hold of this opportunity? I doubt it with the owner we have. And he doesn't look like selling to anybody else! You don't find a manager who can do what Bowyer and his team is showing very often. You have to have the experience and knowledge to spot it and react to it or the chance goes. It is typical of Charlton that we have this opportunity with an idiot of an owner who wouldn't understand it if it came and punched him in the face!
To be fair I'd agree the penalty was soft and probably changed the game in the sense that it brought us level and put more pressure on the Luton defence to make those two mistakes
The fact remains though that Williams should have had a penalty minutes earlier so evened itself up
If anything; Sonny Bradley was an idiot to put himself in a position only moments after that decision when it would have been fresh in the referee's mind
Not sure about the Williams penalty. Thought he was looking for the challenge and as he had been diving all over the place previously he had wound the referee up, so he wan't going to give him anything. I can also see why the keeper wasn't sent off; there were two Luton players goal-side of the incident. Mind you, at the time I couldn't understand how the keeper stayed on the pitch. OK, so Lyle's pen certainly changed the game but we had been getting closer to the equaliser. After that though, we simply played them off the pitch, they simply had no idea how to cope with us.
But sendings off are not just about denying a clear goal scoring opportunity, this was a reckless and dangerous tackle and if it had been an outfield player there would be no question about a red card.
To be fair I'd agree the penalty was soft and probably changed the game in the sense that it brought us level and put more pressure on the Luton defence to make those two mistakes
The fact remains though that Williams should have had a penalty minutes earlier so evened itself up
If anything; Sonny Bradley was an idiot to put himself in a position only moments after that decision when it would have been fresh in the referee's mind
Not sure about the Williams penalty. Thought he was looking for the challenge and as he had been diving all over the place previously he had wound the referee up, so he wan't going to give him anything. I can also see why the keeper wasn't sent off; there were two Luton players goal-side of the incident. Mind you, at the time I couldn't understand how the keeper stayed on the pitch. OK, so Lyle's pen certainly changed the game but we had been getting closer to the equaliser. After that though, we simply played them off the pitch, they simply had no idea how to cope with us.
But sendings off are not just about denying a clear goal scoring opportunity, this was a reckless and dangerous tackle and if it had been an outfield player there would be no question about a red card.
Aka Knockhart for Brighton yesterday. Same sort of tackle (reckless) and even going away from goal.
He is going to back the ref as that is what he does. If it was the other way round and the ref sent Phillips off, he would be backing the ref making a completely different decision.
To be fair, I think roughly 80% of refs would have sent their keeper off. So in that respect, we were unlucky. I would have sent him off. My son, who is a qualified ref, felt he should have been sent off. What refs seem to hate, and don't seem able to accept is that they interpret the laws differently. As a coach, I have recently seen refs give handball every time the ball hits an arm and have been given the explanation that is what is expected of them now, but we had a great ref this morning who used his judgement. With handball they have got themselves in a hell of a mess.
If you are a ref, you have to make a call and often you might not be sure it is the right one. I think the ref made his call in good faith, but would probably considered sending the keeper off. Then the Williams challenge, which I think Williams played for presented the ref with a call to make and that is when you can get a penalty like we got as the ref has to make another call and the fact he has made two one way means he is more likely to make the next the other.
I was in the East stand and the defender was very silly in terms of where he had his hands. I think Taylor felt them and played for it, but if he didn't feel them he couldn't have made it convincing. The ref would have seen the contact and Taylor going over and it was difficult to gauge the force from his position.
Anyway, I think it was a well deserved win against a decent side. That is the important thing.
Sensible post. I think refs would have a much easier time if they: 1. Admitted they were human 2. Admitted that sometimes they made mistakes 3. Didn’t immediately close ranks in the face of any criticism
I do all three, and it does make life easier. Most players respect me for being honest with them.
The referee yesterday, and Peter, got it wrong. The keeper sprinted out directly towards Igor, lunged feet first and cleaned him out. The ball had gone as Igor had already lobbed it. It was reckless and it was very dangerous. If a player had sprinted 20 metres to do that to an opponent on the halfway line, it would also have been a red card offence. I would imagine whoever was assessing the ref will have had a word.
I really think it would benefit the game if referees were permitted an interview to give their perspective on controversial decisions. There is no shame in saying "My view was obstructed" or "I couldn't be sure from the angle I was at" or my favourite "Your fat number 9 was in the way and I couldn't see a thing." Also no shame in saying "having viewed the footage, I got it wrong."
Unfortunately, with the FA, from the very top down to the grassroots, there is a culture of closing ranks and refusing to admit to a mistake, generated by a mixture of fear of the consequences and sheer arrogance. Anyone who has had to deal with the monumental cock-up that is the Whole Game System can attest to that. It just seems to be a means to generate income by fining clubs for non-existent misdemeanours. If you query it, or suggest the system is flawed, then you can pay for a personal hearing that costs more than the fine levied! The club I run has been on the receiving end of a few such fines and I just pay them as it's too much aggro and too costly to contest them. Fortunately, as a referee, I get my own back by not processing any cautions or sendings-off (unless it's a serious one), thus depriving the FA of money they don't need or deserve.
Muttley, don't forget Luton were without top scorer Collins, Hylton, Lua Lua, McCormack, Rea and Potts.
And for a few games this season we were without Biliek, Cullen & Taylor.
If we dont go up automatically there is only one entity to blame......the EFL. Upholding the 3 match ban was a travesty and who knows how many more points we would have picked up in those games.
I am delighted that Vetokele scored on Saturday but people claiming that they'd rather have him than Grant is bordering on the insane.
Grant was having an absolute storming season, both scoring and making goals and had a top partnership going with Taylor as well.
Good to see Igor back on the score sheet but he is not even the player he was in that first great half-season, let alone as good as a bloke who got a move to a PL club.
Just watched the Sunderland v Coventry highlights and Coventry looked very scary. Do not want to meet them in the play-offs and they have to play Pompey and Donny is their last fixture of the season.
Just watched the Sunderland v Coventry highlights and Coventry looked very scary. Do not want to meet them in the play-offs and they have to play Pompey and Donny is their last fixture of the season.
I would rather play Coventry, who have beaten us twice this season, than Pompey who we have beaten twice this season, in the play offs.
I am delighted that Vetokele scored on Saturday but people claiming that they'd rather have him than Grant is bordering on the insane.
Grant was having an absolute storming season, both scoring and making goals and had a top partnership going with Taylor as well.
Good to see Igor back on the score sheet but he is not even the player he was in that first great half-season, let alone as good as a bloke who got a move to a PL club.
He got a move to a PL club that was desperate, couldn't score any goals and most likely didn’t want to spend too much money on either a transfer fee or wages because they were going down. They shopped in the bargain basement. They bought somebody that will do them a turn in the Championship next season, or not if he isn’t regularly scoring goals and he becomes the scapegoat if his PL wages teammates don’t perform in that division either and he’s not getting chances.
Igor is the better striker for me. It isn't insane to think that.
A better striker than Grant? Behave yourself!
Firstly, if he was better than Grant he’d have been in the team ahead of him when fit - he wasn’t.
Secondly, Grant is a player on the rise, he has scored roughly 30 goals in his last 60 games in L2, L1 and the PL. That’s impressive stuff.
By contrast Vetokele - after that great start - has scored about 10 goals in the last four years - admittedly he has had long lay offs in that time.
Truth be told Igor will be very lucky to be retained by the club at the end of the season so the idea he is a better striker than KG at this point is bonkers.
At his peak maybe he was, but he ain’t at his peak now.
Igor is the better striker for me. It isn't insane to think that.
A better striker than Grant? Behave yourself!
Firstly, if he was better than Grant he’d have been in the team ahead of him when fit - he wasn’t.
Secondly, Grant is a player on the rise, he has scored roughly 30 goals in his last 60 games in L2, L1 and the PL. That’s impressive stuff.
By contrast Vetokele - after that great start - has scored about 10 goals in the last four years - admittedly he has had long lay offs in that time.
Truth be told Igor will be very lucky to be retained by the club at the end of the season so the idea he is a better striker than KG at this point is bonkers.
At his peak maybe he was, but he ain’t at his peak now.
I mean, technically he was. He was tearing up the championship when fit. He then had that injury that has given him no end of problrms, earlier this season he was just starting to look fit again and got injured again, with a serious shoulder dislocation.
This season Karlan had so many chances teed up for him by Lyle it'd be disingenuous to say Karlan is the more rounded player.
I honestly believe a prime Igor was far better than this season's Karlan. Problem is it's been 4 and a half years since we saw that Igor...
Last couple of games he has really turned it around and has looked like the old Igor, even bullying the league leaders defence more than I ever saw Karlan do.
Karlan's pace is his biggest tool and we're seeing with Igor it seems that's his too, but he also seems to have something more about him.
For me who would I rather have the next 4 games were I to have a choice? Both of them obviously but Karlan is probably still the sharper of the two right now, so it'd be him. I say that knowing he's not scored in 3.
Igor is the better striker for me. It isn't insane to think that.
A better striker than Grant? Behave yourself!
Firstly, if he was better than Grant he’d have been in the team ahead of him when fit - he wasn’t.
Secondly, Grant is a player on the rise, he has scored roughly 30 goals in his last 60 games in L2, L1 and the PL. That’s impressive stuff.
By contrast Vetokele - after that great start - has scored about 10 goals in the last four years - admittedly he has had long lay offs in that time.
Truth be told Igor will be very lucky to be retained by the club at the end of the season so the idea he is a better striker than KG at this point is bonkers.
At his peak maybe he was, but he ain’t at his peak now.
I mean, technically he was. He was tearing up the championship when fit. He then had that injury that has given him no end of problrms, earlier this season he was just starting to look fit again and got injured again, with a serious shoulder dislocation.
This season Karlan had so many chances teed up for him by Lyle it'd be disingenuous to say Karlan is the more rounded player.
I honestly believe a prime Igor was far better than this season's Karlan. Problem is it's been 4 and a half years since we saw that Igor...
Last couple of games he has really turned it around and has looked like the old Igor, even bullying the league leaders defence more than I ever saw Karlan do.
Karlan's pace is his biggest tool and we're seeing with Igor it seems that's his too, but he also seems to have something more about him.
For me who would I rather have the next 4 games were I to have a choice? Both of them obviously but Karlan is probably still the sharper of the two right now, so it'd be him. I say that knowing he's not scored in 3.
This is the way I look at it. It isn't being critical of Karlan, who has had a great season, and it supposes Vetokele continues to improve towards the level he was at. But Igor's overall game is better IMO.
Igor is the better striker for me. It isn't insane to think that.
A better striker than Grant? Behave yourself!
Firstly, if he was better than Grant he’d have been in the team ahead of him when fit - he wasn’t.
Secondly, Grant is a player on the rise, he has scored roughly 30 goals in his last 60 games in L2, L1 and the PL. That’s impressive stuff.
By contrast Vetokele - after that great start - has scored about 10 goals in the last four years - admittedly he has had long lay offs in that time.
Truth be told Igor will be very lucky to be retained by the club at the end of the season so the idea he is a better striker than KG at this point is bonkers.
At his peak maybe he was, but he ain’t at his peak now.
I mean, technically he was. He was tearing up the championship when fit. He then had that injury that has given him no end of problrms, earlier this season he was just starting to look fit again and got injured again, with a serious shoulder dislocation.
This season Karlan had so many chances teed up for him by Lyle it'd be disingenuous to say Karlan is the more rounded player.
I honestly believe a prime Igor was far better than this season's Karlan. Problem is it's been 4 and a half years since we saw that Igor...
Last couple of games he has really turned it around and has looked like the old Igor, even bullying the league leaders defence more than I ever saw Karlan do.
Karlan's pace is his biggest tool and we're seeing with Igor it seems that's his too, but he also seems to have something more about him.
For me who would I rather have the next 4 games were I to have a choice? Both of them obviously but Karlan is probably still the sharper of the two right now, so it'd be him. I say that knowing he's not scored in 3.
Having chances set up by Lyle just shows they were a good partnership. The fact that Grant set up chances for Lyle seems to be forgotten.
Muttley, don't forget Luton were without top scorer Collins, Hylton, Lua Lua, McCormack, Rea and Potts.
And for a few games this season we were without Biliek, Cullen & Taylor.
If we dont go up automatically there is only one entity to blame......the EFL. Upholding the 3 match ban was a travesty and who knows how many more points we would have picked up in those games.
You worry me when you come out with comments that dont seem crazy...
Near perfect performance. Could have been the most amazing afternoon, but why the juvenile nonsense in the corner in added time? We'd taken apart the league leaders, so we shouldn't need to sink to that level.
It's what professional footballers do to win a game.
Personally, I think it's a massive step forward. We've learnt how to win games, rather than previous years, where we sit deeper and deeper until we concede,
It was great game management, my only concern was the defenders might put Lyle or Joe in Row Z.
Defending in your opponents half is always the best option. Dropping deeper and deeper has sent me crazy over the years.
For some reason two matches against Birmingham stick in my mind, when Nikola Zigic the giant Serb came on as Sub at the Valley and we sat deep at 1-0 up instead of having a high defensive line where the 6ft 7" Striker would be nullified. Of course he got the assist with minutes to go. I went to the Return at Birmingham the same season and again 1-0 up we retreated and Ground hog day happened and Zigic scored bizarrely with his feet around the penalty area.
It's not rocket science to work out the further the ball is from your own goal the less chance of the opposition have of scoring. (No shit Sherlock)
Muttley, don't forget Luton were without top scorer Collins, Hylton, Lua Lua, McCormack, Rea and Potts.
And for a few games this season we were without Biliek, Cullen & Taylor.
If we dont go up automatically there is only one entity to blame......the EFL. Upholding the 3 match ban was a travesty and who knows how many more points we would have picked up in those games.
Just watched the Sunderland v Coventry highlights and Coventry looked very scary. Do not want to meet them in the play-offs and they have to play Pompey and Donny is their last fixture of the season.
Coventry are eight points back from 6th; they need a huge turn of fortune from Doncaster to make the Play-Offs now - That last spot is between Donny and Peterborough now depending on whether the latter win their game in hand which I hope they do as is against Portsmouth
Just watched the Sunderland v Coventry highlights and Coventry looked very scary. Do not want to meet them in the play-offs and they have to play Pompey and Donny is their last fixture of the season.
We got more chance of winning the league than they have of getting in the play offs.
Muttley, don't forget Luton were without top scorer Collins, Hylton, Lua Lua, McCormack, Rea and Potts.
And for a few games this season we were without Biliek, Cullen & Taylor.
If we dont go up automatically there is only one entity to blame......the EFL. Upholding the 3 match ban was a travesty and who knows how many more points we would have picked up in those games.
And we sold our top scorer in January.
Precisely. The entity that will cost us promotion is sitting in Belgium taping up a shoe.
Seen the highlights and numerous other media videos, fantastic win and a noisey Valley, monitored on my phone Staurday, a weekend of booze in Bournemouth, my BiL's 60th, hopefully 2 games for me left this season to watch live, the last one being a Wembley victory, unless of course....................................
another bit that i had remembered this morning (though I'm sure other have said it) but how good were Sarr's one on ones with a couple of their players. won every challenge and brushed the attackers a side.
So happy he got the goal. Despite everything, I believe most of us have really wanted him to succeed.
Will be interesting to see how he reacts in the next 7 games.
Or, quite possibly, 4 games when we get to 2nd place
Could there be a true Charlton supporter who didn't want him to succeed? Some may have questioned if he would but that's not saying they didn't want him to.
He is going to back the ref as that is what he does. If it was the other way round and the ref sent Phillips off, he would be backing the ref making a completely different decision.
To be fair, I think roughly 80% of refs would have sent their keeper off. So in that respect, we were unlucky. I would have sent him off. My son, who is a qualified ref, felt he should have been sent off. What refs seem to hate, and don't seem able to accept is that they interpret the laws differently. As a coach, I have recently seen refs give handball every time the ball hits an arm and have been given the explanation that is what is expected of them now, but we had a great ref this morning who used his judgement. With handball they have got themselves in a hell of a mess.
If you are a ref, you have to make a call and often you might not be sure it is the right one. I think the ref made his call in good faith, but would probably considered sending the keeper off. Then the Williams challenge, which I think Williams played for presented the ref with a call to make and that is when you can get a penalty like we got as the ref has to make another call and the fact he has made two one way means he is more likely to make the next the other.
I was in the East stand and the defender was very silly in terms of where he had his hands. I think Taylor felt them and played for it, but if he didn't feel them he couldn't have made it convincing. The ref would have seen the contact and Taylor going over and it was difficult to gauge the force from his position.
Anyway, I think it was a well deserved win against a decent side. That is the important thing.
Sensible post. I think refs would have a much easier time if they: 1. Admitted they were human 2. Admitted that sometimes they made mistakes 3. Didn’t immediately close ranks in the face of any criticism
I do all three, and it does make life easier. Most players respect me for being honest with them.
The referee yesterday, and Peter, got it wrong. The keeper sprinted out directly towards Igor, lunged feet first and cleaned him out. The ball had gone as Igor had already lobbed it. It was reckless and it was very dangerous. If a player had sprinted 20 metres to do that to an opponent on the halfway line, it would also have been a red card offence. I would imagine whoever was assessing the ref will have had a word.
I really think it would benefit the game if referees were permitted an interview to give their perspective on controversial decisions. There is no shame in saying "My view was obstructed" or "I couldn't be sure from the angle I was at" or my favourite "Your fat number 9 was in the way and I couldn't see a thing." Also no shame in saying "having viewed the footage, I got it wrong."
Unfortunately, with the FA, from the very top down to the grassroots, there is a culture of closing ranks and refusing to admit to a mistake, generated by a mixture of fear of the consequences and sheer arrogance. Anyone who has had to deal with the monumental cock-up that is the Whole Game System can attest to that. It just seems to be a means to generate income by fining clubs for non-existent misdemeanours. If you query it, or suggest the system is flawed, then you can pay for a personal hearing that costs more than the fine levied! The club I run has been on the receiving end of a few such fines and I just pay them as it's too much aggro and too costly to contest them. Fortunately, as a referee, I get my own back by not processing any cautions or sendings-off (unless it's a serious one), thus depriving the FA of money they don't need or deserve.
As a former club secretary of many years' standing, you Sir, are a man after my own heart.
Surprised nobody mentioned the kerfuffle behind the Luton dugout when Lyle scored. We quite often get a few oppo non-playing squad members sitting in the vacant seats behind the dugout, and I have never seen any issue with any of them in the past. Even if their team scored, they would be respectful and not celebrate. On Saturday, about five Luton players/staff (including Lua-Lua, I'm sure, wearing a stupid baseball cap) were joined in the seats by a couple of Luton fans. When Luton scored, they all jumped up and cheered very loudly, which as I say, I've never seen before in that area. That annoyed some west stand locals (possibly as it woke them up?) and it was considered disrespectful. One steward came down to see what was going on. Lua Lua (if it was him) calmed it all down by telling one guy that if and when Charlton scored, we could all jump up and shout too. Cue Lyle's pen going in and the Luton boys are getting earfuls from all and sundry sitting near them, some of it slightly OTT, but whatever. Lua Lua then put hands on one CA fan and it almost got nasty, before stewards came in and sorted it out. The group were first moved to the front row of seats, then farther along into the sterile area at the end which is not used anymore. It could have got very nasty had they still been around when Igor scored!!! Another senior steward said that they had permission to sit there, but that's never happened in games with a big crowd before.
Comments
The very talented cousin of my son in law.
Not too sure if you were....but I was at Shrewsbury when Karlan missed chance after chance!!
On a wider point. We have had games were the squad was depleted and that has cost us, but our best team is better than the League winning team IMO. By quite a distance too. What scares me is that the Charlton story in recent years is one of lost opportunities. We have a massive one now. I think a small amount of strengthening and we can go up again next season if we manage this situation right.
Will we grab hold of this opportunity? I doubt it with the owner we have. And he doesn't look like selling to anybody else! You don't find a manager who can do what Bowyer and his team is showing very often. You have to have the experience and knowledge to spot it and react to it or the chance goes. It is typical of Charlton that we have this opportunity with an idiot of an owner who wouldn't understand it if it came and punched him in the face!
What Bowyer is doing is special.
The referee yesterday, and Peter, got it wrong. The keeper sprinted out directly towards Igor, lunged feet first and cleaned him out. The ball had gone as Igor had already lobbed it. It was reckless and it was very dangerous. If a player had sprinted 20 metres to do that to an opponent on the halfway line, it would also have been a red card offence. I would imagine whoever was assessing the ref will have had a word.
I really think it would benefit the game if referees were permitted an interview to give their perspective on controversial decisions. There is no shame in saying "My view was obstructed" or "I couldn't be sure from the angle I was at" or my favourite "Your fat number 9 was in the way and I couldn't see a thing." Also no shame in saying "having viewed the footage, I got it wrong."
Unfortunately, with the FA, from the very top down to the grassroots, there is a culture of closing ranks and refusing to admit to a mistake, generated by a mixture of fear of the consequences and sheer arrogance. Anyone who has had to deal with the monumental cock-up that is the Whole Game System can attest to that. It just seems to be a means to generate income by fining clubs for non-existent misdemeanours. If you query it, or suggest the system is flawed, then you can pay for a personal hearing that costs more than the fine levied!
The club I run has been on the receiving end of a few such fines and I just pay them as it's too much aggro and too costly to contest them. Fortunately, as a referee, I get my own back by not processing any cautions or sendings-off (unless it's a serious one), thus depriving the FA of money they don't need or deserve.
If we dont go up automatically there is only one entity to blame......the EFL. Upholding the 3 match ban was a travesty and who knows how many more points we would have picked up in those games.
Grant was having an absolute storming season, both scoring and making goals and had a top partnership going with Taylor as well.
Good to see Igor back on the score sheet but he is not even the player he was in that first great half-season, let alone as good as a bloke who got a move to a PL club.
Do not want to meet them in the play-offs and they have to play Pompey and Donny is their last fixture of the season.
A better striker than Grant? Behave yourself!
Firstly, if he was better than Grant he’d have been in the team ahead of him when fit - he wasn’t.
Secondly, Grant is a player on the rise, he has scored roughly 30 goals in his last 60 games in L2, L1 and the PL. That’s impressive stuff.
By contrast Vetokele - after that great start - has scored about 10 goals in the last four years - admittedly he has had long lay offs in that time.
Truth be told Igor will be very lucky to be retained by the club at the end of the season so the idea he is a better striker than KG at this point is bonkers.
At his peak maybe he was, but he ain’t at his peak now.
This season Karlan had so many chances teed up for him by Lyle it'd be disingenuous to say Karlan is the more rounded player.
I honestly believe a prime Igor was far better than this season's Karlan. Problem is it's been 4 and a half years since we saw that Igor...
Last couple of games he has really turned it around and has looked like the old Igor, even bullying the league leaders defence more than I ever saw Karlan do.
Karlan's pace is his biggest tool and we're seeing with Igor it seems that's his too, but he also seems to have something more about him.
For me who would I rather have the next 4 games were I to have a choice? Both of them obviously but Karlan is probably still the sharper of the two right now, so it'd be him. I say that knowing he's not scored in 3.
https://youtu.be/fp4yL6_nTVE
Makes me think someone has hacked your account
Defending in your opponents half is always the best option. Dropping deeper and deeper has sent me crazy over the years.
For some reason two matches against Birmingham stick in my mind, when Nikola Zigic the giant Serb came on as Sub at the Valley and we sat deep at 1-0 up instead of having a high defensive line where the 6ft 7" Striker would be nullified. Of course he got the assist with minutes to go.
I went to the Return at Birmingham the same season and again 1-0 up we retreated and Ground hog day happened and Zigic scored bizarrely with his feet around the penalty area.
It's not rocket science to work out the further the ball is from your own goal the less chance of the opposition have of scoring. (No shit Sherlock)