I’ve been watching this channel in the US this week and one thing I’ve noticed that I don’t understand - Rebecca (the presenter) always refers to Robbie Earle by both names. Every single time.
Has Sterling? Do we know he has? He gets abuse no doubt but do we know it’s purely because he is black? And is one type of abuse worse than another and who judges?
Some of the most uncomfortable abuse I’ve witnessed has been at ginger people, who seem fair game to just about anyone who isn’t ginger, have to endure negative connations and casual but often relentless brutal abuse, which if it was directed at skin colour, would send people into a frenzy.
You're on a wind-up right?
No, I ain’t got time for trolling (?) or whatever the term is.
So firstly you know, for sure, that the abuse Raheem receives is purely because he is black?
And you also don’t think the abuse someone suffers due to their minority hair colour and complexion, which they are born with and have no control over, can have the same impact on the receipient as the abuse someone receives over their minority skin colour which they are born with and have no control over?
I think Neville and Carragher are spot on. Neville’s point about ‘Becks’, ‘Wazza’ and ‘Gazza’ Getting stick but also hero worshipped when they got it right was very astute. He saw first hand the abuse they got and says Sterling’s is a lot worse and he has done a lot less wrong.
Saying that racism doesn't exist in football because white players get abuse too and some black players are loved, is simplifying a complicated world. It says that racism can only exist where all black players are hated and only white ones loved. We all know that's not true and that argument should be left there.
It's not worth going over something so logically unsound and out of touch with the way the world works that time would be better spent painting thin air.
Chunes, no one, well certainly not me has ever said racism doesn’t exist in football. It exists everywhere whether consciously or uncounciously, directly or indirectly and is obviously abhorrent to most of us.
What I’m saying is that just because a black person receives abuse, it does not necessarily mean it has happened because they are black.
That assumption implies their skin colour is the only noteable thing about them, if that could be the only plausible reason for the abuse they’ve received.....does it not?
You miss the point Organiser. It's not about the knuckle-dragging mouthbreathers who shout racist things. It's about the press enabling and empowering this sort of attitude, and that's not speculation. It's a proven and demonstrable fact black players get tougher, more critical treatment than white ones. Latent and unconscious it may be, it's still racist.
We’ll just have to agree to disagree mate, but are we just talking Sterling here or are there other clear, proven examples I’m missing. Because I can’t think of many (if any) other black players who receive or ga e received this unwarranted different treatment.
If what you say is true, then that would come across against all or at least a lot more black players than just Sterling, would it not?
I just think that an agenda against Sterling (for whatever reason) is being inexplicably turned into an agenda against black players, which I just don’t see myself.
I haven't read most of this thread, but has anyone pointed out that amongst the 20/30 Chelsea fans, some of which appeared to be abusing Sterling. It looked to me like 3 were black or brown and I thought a couple looked like they were abusing Sterling ?
We’ll just have to agree to disagree mate, but are we just talking Sterling here or are there other clear, proven examples I’m missing. Because I can’t think of many (if any) other black players who receive or ga e received this unwarranted different treatment.
If what you say is true, then that would come across against all or at least a lot more black players than just Sterling, would it not?
I just think that an agenda against Sterling (for whatever reason) is being inexplicably turned into an agenda against black players, which I just don’t see myself.
You don't see an agenda against black players so you can't see one against Sterling. All or more black players aren't targetted so can't be racism? World isn't that simple mate.
The key to all this is you saying they have an agenda against Sterling... "(for whatever reason)."
I’ve been watching this channel in the US this week and one thing I’ve noticed that I don’t understand - Rebecca (the presenter) always refers to Robbie Earle by both names. Every single time.
“Was that a red card Robbieearle?”
Serious answer: It’s because they sometimes have Robbie Mustoe on there too.
I haven't read most of this thread, but has anyone pointed out that amongst the 20/30 Chelsea fans, some of which appeared to be abusing Sterling. It looked to me like 3 were black or brown and I thought a couple looked like they were abusing Sterling ?
We’ll just have to agree to disagree mate, but are we just talking Sterling here or are there other clear, proven examples I’m missing. Because I can’t think of many (if any) other black players who receive or ga e received this unwarranted different treatment.
If what you say is true, then that would come across against all or at least a lot more black players than just Sterling, would it not?
I just think that an agenda against Sterling (for whatever reason) is being inexplicably turned into an agenda against black players, which I just don’t see myself.
In the articles that promptrd this whole thing, a young black player and a white player the same age both spent near enough the same amount on new houses. One was friviously spending undeservedly high wages, one was making a prudent investment for the future (I imagine you can guess which is which) . Neither was called Raheem Sterling.
I have paraphrased some what but its not my interpretation. Its exactly what was said. You may not see it, but the agenda is there.
We’ll just have to agree to disagree mate, but are we just talking Sterling here or are there other clear, proven examples I’m missing. Because I can’t think of many (if any) other black players who receive or ga e received this unwarranted different treatment.
If what you say is true, then that would come across against all or at least a lot more black players than just Sterling, would it not?
I just think that an agenda against Sterling (for whatever reason) is being inexplicably turned into an agenda against black players, which I just don’t see myself.
Do you see racism in the judiciary because there are few black judges .Do you see racism in the education system because of the tiny amount of black students who attend Oxbridge .Do you see racism in football management given the tiny amount of black managers. Do you see racism in the prison system given the disproportionate amount of black people incarcerated.
If no , then frankly you have a non existent or highly limited understanding of what predudice is and how when added to power racism occurs.
If yes ,then you have a good understanding of race issues with an inexplicable, idiosyncratic perspective on racism in football linked to a curious focus on people with ginger hair
The idea that black players do not get abused by some supporters based solely on their blackness is fatuous and Raheem Sterling has done himself a credit and football a service by evidencing how certain newspapers embed these predujices with racist reporting
imo i think the throwing of a banana skin at aubameyang was far worse as it was a pre mediatated act of racism, yes what the fan said was wrong and a pretty disgusting thing to say but if you change the word from black to palace a lot of ours would be shouting similar at zaha taking a corner, a lot saying that even shouting the c word should not be tolerated.
Has Sterling? Do we know he has? He gets abuse no doubt but do we know it’s purely because he is black? And is one type of abuse worse than another and who judges?
Some of the most uncomfortable abuse I’ve witnessed has been at ginger people, who seem fair game to just about anyone who isn’t ginger, have to endure negative connations and casual but often relentless brutal abuse, which if it was directed at skin colour, would send people into a frenzy.
Strawberry blonde?
Say it loud I'm red headed and proud
Brilliant. Something new to give you abuse over.
Is the abuse a player like Defoe gets at The Valley because he is black?
I remember giving a Norwich winger (can't remember his name just now) some constant abuse close up from the East Stand a few years ago. Useless, too slow, overweight, in your pocket, give up now, that sort of thing. Constant criticism, that got a few laughs from fellow fans around me.
After about 20 minutes of this he had a word with a steward who came over and told me to stop. It was obviously effecting his game.
Did I stop? Did I fuck. Just carried on to continue murdering his performance. He was awful. Lost control of the ball, got rid of it as quickly as he could, misplaced virtually all of his passes., lost possession at least four times and didn't get passed a single Charlton player for the last 20 minutes of the first half. His team mates even stopped moving the ball to him. He was substituted at half time.
Now he may have just had a bad game. But without a doubt fans 'abusing' away players is something that has always happen and will continue to happen as it seen as giving the home side an advantage and is part of the 'fortress' atmosphere.
Should I have started the 'ooh ooh, Nigel' shout in the covered end about thirty years ago at Nigel Batch? Now it would be seen as homophobic - I had and have no idea if Nigel Batch was gay or not, but it was funny, was taken up by other Covered Enders every time Batch payed against us, and obviously put him off with his goal kicks.
Should I have sung 'Sugar, Sugar' at Gary Mabbut when he took a free kick close to me, mocking his diabetes? Wouldn't do it now, bur his free kick went straight out of play.
I'm sure more examples will come to me during the day, but I will always give stick to away players. Not because they are black, white, Scottish, Welsh, tall, short, ginger, overweight or foreign, but because they are away players who can hear me and whose game may be effected by some of the things I shout.
However, I do know when to draw the line and I always try to use humour in my 'abuse'.
Has Sterling? Do we know he has? He gets abuse no doubt but do we know it’s purely because he is black? And is one type of abuse worse than another and who judges?
Some of the most uncomfortable abuse I’ve witnessed has been at ginger people, who seem fair game to just about anyone who isn’t ginger, have to endure negative connations and casual but often relentless brutal abuse, which if it was directed at skin colour, would send people into a frenzy.
Strawberry blonde?
Say it loud I'm red headed and proud
Brilliant. Something new to give you abuse over.
Is the abuse a player like Defoe gets at The Valley because he is black?
I remember giving a Norwich winger (can't remember his name just now) some constant abuse close up from the East Stand a few years ago. Useless, too slow, overweight, in your pocket, give up now, that sort of thing. Constant criticism, that got a few laughs from fellow fans around me.
After about 20 minutes of this he had a word with a steward who came over and told me to stop. It was obviously effecting his game.
Did I stop? Did I fuck. Just carried on to continue murdering his performance. He was awful. Lost control of the ball, got rid of it as quickly as he could, misplaced virtually all of his passes., lost possession at least four times and didn't get passed a single Charlton player for the last 20 minutes of the first half. His team mates even stopped moving the ball to him. He was substituted at half time.
Now he may have just had a bad game. But without a doubt fans 'abusing' away players is something that has always happen and will continue to happen as it seen as giving the home side an advantage and is part of the 'fortress' atmosphere.
Should I have started the 'ooh ooh, Nigel' shout in the covered end about thirty years ago at Nigel Batch? Now it would be seen as homophobic - I had and have no idea if Nigel Batch was gay or not, but it was funny, was taken up by other Covered Enders every time Batch payed against us, and obviously put him off with his goal kicks.
Should I have sung 'Sugar, Sugar' at Gary Mabbut when he took a free kick close to me, mocking his diabetes? Wouldn't do it now, bur his free kick went straight out of play.
I'm sure more examples will come to me during the day, but I will always give stick to away players. Not because they are black, white, Scottish, Welsh, tall, short, ginger, overweight or foreign, but because they are away players who can hear me and whose game may be effected by some of the things I shout.
However, I do know when to draw the line and I always try to use humour in my 'abuse'.
Has Sterling? Do we know he has? He gets abuse no doubt but do we know it’s purely because he is black? And is one type of abuse worse than another and who judges?
Some of the most uncomfortable abuse I’ve witnessed has been at ginger people, who seem fair game to just about anyone who isn’t ginger, have to endure negative connations and casual but often relentless brutal abuse, which if it was directed at skin colour, would send people into a frenzy.
Strawberry blonde?
Say it loud I'm red headed and proud
Is the abuse a player like Defoe gets at The Valley because he is black?
Absolutely. It's pure, subconscious racism. That's whether those abusing him dress it up as being because of how he left the club or not. The reality is it enables their subconscious racism to rise to the surface.
Has Sterling? Do we know he has? He gets abuse no doubt but do we know it’s purely because he is black? And is one type of abuse worse than another and who judges?
Some of the most uncomfortable abuse I’ve witnessed has been at ginger people, who seem fair game to just about anyone who isn’t ginger, have to endure negative connations and casual but often relentless brutal abuse, which if it was directed at skin colour, would send people into a frenzy.
Strawberry blonde?
Say it loud I'm red headed and proud
Brilliant. Something new to give you abuse over.
Is the abuse a player like Defoe gets at The Valley because he is black?
I remember giving a Norwich winger (can't remember his name just now) some constant abuse close up from the East Stand a few years ago. Useless, too slow, overweight, in your pocket, give up now, that sort of thing. Constant criticism, that got a few laughs from fellow fans around me.
After about 20 minutes of this he had a word with a steward who came over and told me to stop. It was obviously effecting his game.
Did I stop? Did I fuck. Just carried on to continue murdering his performance. He was awful. Lost control of the ball, got rid of it as quickly as he could, misplaced virtually all of his passes., lost possession at least four times and didn't get passed a single Charlton player for the last 20 minutes of the first half. His team mates even stopped moving the ball to him. He was substituted at half time.
Now he may have just had a bad game. But without a doubt fans 'abusing' away players is something that has always happen and will continue to happen as it seen as giving the home side an advantage and is part of the 'fortress' atmosphere.
Should I have started the 'ooh ooh, Nigel' shout in the covered end about thirty years ago at Nigel Batch? Now it would be seen as homophobic - I had and have no idea if Nigel Batch was gay or not, but it was funny, was taken up by other Covered Enders every time Batch payed against us, and obviously put him off with his goal kicks.
Should I have sung 'Sugar, Sugar' at Gary Mabbut when he took a free kick close to me, mocking his diabetes? Wouldn't do it now, bur his free kick went straight out of play.
I'm sure more examples will come to me during the day, but I will always give stick to away players. Not because they are black, white, Scottish, Welsh, tall, short, ginger, overweight or foreign, but because they are away players who can hear me and whose game may be effected by some of the things I shout.
However, I do know when to draw the line and I always try to use humour in my 'abuse'.
Clearly we all know why Defoe, and Parker, got abuse from Charlton fans, and it wasn't to do with their race.
You're a funny guy (cue Goodfellas sketch) SOME times but you're not screaming "f*** off you black C*** or similar at a player just because he's black and plays for the other side.
You know there is a huge difference because, as you say, you know where to draw the line. Unfortunately, others don't or still see all abuse as the same, when it isn't.
PS I also remember the covered end singing "I want ginger hair too"
I really like Sterling, I've seen a couple of pieces on him and ready his story in a publication (can't remember which one) where he talks about his sister taking him on the bus to QPR, and he comes across as an honest young bloke. The media, particularly the Daily Mail, are a disgrace in their approach to his personal life, but for me it isn't close to what Gazza has taken, especially around 2 or 3 years ago. The pictures of him looking a frail old piss head, naked in the street with just an undone dressing gown wrapped round him went way beyond the boundaries of news reporting.
some nice comments about Sterling on sky last night, albeit from a not very pleasant man who knew him at Liverpool, J Carragher .. 'he trains well, is always on time, is quiet, quite shy and listens and takes in good advice' .. I suspect that the difference between his performances for England and Man C is where and how he's asked to play and perhaps he feels more 'secure' with people he knows well, is familiar with and plays with all the time. I hope he doesn't become another Laurie Cunningham and is forced to go abroad to get the real recognition his talent deserves, although his lucrative contract with City will go a long way to make him feel 'at home' despite the unjustified criticism and racist comments he has to endure from a moronic minority
I’ve been watching this channel in the US this week and one thing I’ve noticed that I don’t understand - Rebecca (the presenter) always refers to Robbie Earle by both names. Every single time.
“Was that a red card Robbieearle?”
Possibly because Robbie Mustoe does the Sunday show with Robbie Earle?
I really like Sterling, I've seen a couple of pieces on him and ready his story in a publication (can't remember which one) where he talks about his sister taking him on the bus to QPR, and he comes across as an honest young bloke. The media, particularly the Daily Mail, are a disgrace in their approach to his personal life, but for me it isn't close to what Gazza has taken, especially around 2 or 3 years ago. The pictures of him looking a frail old piss head, naked in the street with just an undone dressing gown wrapped round him went way beyond the boundaries of news reporting.
But think of the behavior it took for him to get that, versus, well, what has Sterling done wrong, exactly?
Now, Gazza's behavior is explained by his mental illness and addiction struggles, I am not here to criticize the man, or anyone struggling with mental illness (as I do myself). I just want to point out the difference in behavior for your example. And also say that just because someone has it worse doesn't mean that racism isn't a factor.
I really like Sterling, I've seen a couple of pieces on him and ready his story in a publication (can't remember which one) where he talks about his sister taking him on the bus to QPR, and he comes across as an honest young bloke. The media, particularly the Daily Mail, are a disgrace in their approach to his personal life, but for me it isn't close to what Gazza has taken, especially around 2 or 3 years ago. The pictures of him looking a frail old piss head, naked in the street with just an undone dressing gown wrapped round him went way beyond the boundaries of news reporting.
But think of the behavior it took for him to get that, versus, well, what has Sterling done wrong, exactly?
Now, Gazza's behavior is explained by his mental illness and addiction struggles, I am not here to criticize the man, or anyone struggling with mental illness (as I do myself). I just want to point out the difference in behavior for your example. And also say that just because someone has it worse doesn't mean that racism isn't a factor.
I didn't suggest otherwise. The Daily Mail know exactly what they're doing.
Has Sterling? Do we know he has? He gets abuse no doubt but do we know it’s purely because he is black? And is one type of abuse worse than another and who judges?
Some of the most uncomfortable abuse I’ve witnessed has been at ginger people, who seem fair game to just about anyone who isn’t ginger, have to endure negative connations and casual but often relentless brutal abuse, which if it was directed at skin colour, would send people into a frenzy.
Strawberry blonde?
Say it loud I'm red headed and proud
Is the abuse a player like Defoe gets at The Valley because he is black?
Absolutely. It's pure, subconscious racism. That's whether those abusing him dress it up as being because of how he left the club or not. The reality is it enables their subconscious racism to rise to the surface.
There can be no other explanation.
Subconscious racism? Let's pretend such a thing exists, even though it doesn't.
Big bad world supports the idea that kids get to wave flags when Charlton enter the pitch. Subconsciously he is a peadophile.
Add subconscious to anything to prove an invalid point.
Comments
So firstly you know, for sure, that the abuse Raheem receives is purely because he is black?
And you also don’t think the abuse someone suffers due to their minority hair colour and complexion, which they are born with and have no control over, can have the same impact on the receipient as the abuse someone receives over their minority skin colour which they are born with and have no control over?
Chunes, no one, well certainly not me has ever said racism doesn’t exist in football. It exists everywhere whether consciously or uncounciously, directly or indirectly and is obviously abhorrent to most of us.
What I’m saying is that just because a black person receives abuse, it does not necessarily mean it has happened because they are black.
That assumption implies their skin colour is the only noteable thing about them, if that could be the only plausible reason for the abuse they’ve received.....does it not?
If what you say is true, then that would come across against all or at least a lot more black players than just Sterling, would it not?
I just think that an agenda against Sterling (for whatever reason) is being inexplicably turned into an agenda against black players, which I just don’t see myself.
It looked to me like 3 were black or brown and I thought a couple looked like they were abusing Sterling ?
The key to all this is you saying they have an agenda against Sterling... "(for whatever reason)."
It’s because they sometimes have Robbie Mustoe on there too.
I have paraphrased some what but its not my interpretation. Its exactly what was said. You may not see it, but the agenda is there.
If no , then frankly you have a non existent or highly limited understanding of what predudice is and how when added to power racism occurs.
If yes ,then you have a good understanding of race issues with an inexplicable, idiosyncratic perspective on racism in football linked to a curious focus on people with ginger hair
The idea that black players do not get abused by some supporters based solely on their blackness is fatuous and Raheem Sterling has done himself a credit and football a service by evidencing how certain newspapers embed these predujices with racist reporting
More power to your elbow Raheem
Is the abuse a player like Defoe gets at The Valley because he is black?
I remember giving a Norwich winger (can't remember his name just now) some constant abuse close up from the East Stand a few years ago. Useless, too slow, overweight, in your pocket, give up now, that sort of thing. Constant criticism, that got a few laughs from fellow fans around me.
After about 20 minutes of this he had a word with a steward who came over and told me to stop. It was obviously effecting his game.
Did I stop? Did I fuck. Just carried on to continue murdering his performance. He was awful. Lost control of the ball, got rid of it as quickly as he could, misplaced virtually all of his passes., lost possession at least four times and didn't get passed a single Charlton player for the last 20 minutes of the first half. His team mates even stopped moving the ball to him. He was substituted at half time.
Now he may have just had a bad game. But without a doubt fans 'abusing' away players is something that has always happen and will continue to happen as it seen as giving the home side an advantage and is part of the 'fortress' atmosphere.
Should I have started the 'ooh ooh, Nigel' shout in the covered end about thirty years ago at Nigel Batch? Now it would be seen as homophobic - I had and have no idea if Nigel Batch was gay or not, but it was funny, was taken up by other Covered Enders every time Batch payed against us, and obviously put him off with his goal kicks.
Should I have sung 'Sugar, Sugar' at Gary Mabbut when he took a free kick close to me, mocking his diabetes? Wouldn't do it now, bur his free kick went straight out of play.
I'm sure more examples will come to me during the day, but I will always give stick to away players. Not because they are black, white, Scottish, Welsh, tall, short, ginger, overweight or foreign, but because they are away players who can hear me and whose game may be effected by some of the things I shout.
However, I do know when to draw the line and I always try to use humour in my 'abuse'.
There can be no other explanation.
You're a funny guy (cue Goodfellas sketch) SOME times but you're not screaming "f*** off you black C*** or similar at a player just because he's black and plays for the other side.
You know there is a huge difference because, as you say, you know where to draw the line. Unfortunately, others don't or still see all abuse as the same, when it isn't.
PS I also remember the covered end singing "I want ginger hair too"
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I suspect that the difference between his performances for England and Man C is where and how he's asked to play and perhaps he feels more 'secure' with people he knows well, is familiar with and plays with all the time.
I hope he doesn't become another Laurie Cunningham and is forced to go abroad to get the real recognition his talent deserves, although his lucrative contract with City will go a long way to make him feel 'at home' despite the unjustified criticism and racist comments he has to endure from a moronic minority
Now, Gazza's behavior is explained by his mental illness and addiction struggles, I am not here to criticize the man, or anyone struggling with mental illness (as I do myself). I just want to point out the difference in behavior for your example. And also say that just because someone has it worse doesn't mean that racism isn't a factor.
Let's pretend such a thing exists, even though it doesn't.
Big bad world supports the idea that kids get to wave flags when Charlton enter the pitch.
Subconsciously he is a peadophile.
Add subconscious to anything to prove an invalid point.