The Dangers of a Cashless Society.

Ormiston_Addick

I got pick-pocketed in Paris in July in the middle of our European holiday.

We basically had to live on cash for the rest of the trip and it was a nightmare, you need credit cards for everything these days!

Algarveaddick

colthe3rd said:

seth plum said:

colthe3rd said:

LenGlover said:

colthe3rd said:

LenGlover said:

Katrien Meire heaven. She's in the wrong business.

Marginalise the elderly or those who cannot afford the latest all singing all dancing mobile telephone.

Elitist and dividing yet the irony is that the most strident advocates will regard themselves as socialist and inclusive.

So the elderly don't have a bank card? WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE OLD PEOPLE????!!!!!

A bank card doesn't help you pay Dartford Crossing charges with a phone app.

A lot of old gits like me still have a mobile phone for making and receiving phone calls and a text message.

My old antique phone actually has a camera on it so if I really feel like living on the edge I occasionally take a photograph all of which will be lost of course once my telephone finally dies a death.

Words like 'App' to me and many others of my vintage is the equivalent of trying to read the excellent work of @ROT, chronicled in other threads, in the original Flemish or is it Dutch or Walloon?

The patronising sniffy attitude towards the technologically disabled, demonstrated by the post I have quoted, is widespread too so does not encourage engagement as nobody likes been laughed at for their inept efforts in any field.

I am the cyber fat kid in the gym trying and failing to vault. I do not think I am alone either although the stigma of being technophobic in modern society seems to be worse than that accorded to racists or anti semites.

From a 30 second search I can see you can pay the Dartford crossing by many ways other than the app even with cash at payzone points.

Ignorance is not an excuse. If people are unwilling to change then that's their fault. Technology is on the whole very user friendly these days. My Dad who's in his seventies doesn't have a problem with it. Never used a computer for his work, never grew up with it but has accepted that things change and if you don't then you'll be left behind. Sure he gets stuck with some things, everyone does but all people need to do is ask for help*.

*Google.

I refer the right honourable poster to the Bexley NHS app, and ask how user friendly that system is for blind people.

I am shocked that the NHS have clocked something up. I'm not saying that every single bit of technology in use is perfect or infallible. It isn't. However on the whole it has made our lives simpler and easier.

There are of course merits to be had both ways for this but this whole debate was not about that. It was scare mongering of the modern world and my point was at the beginning and still is that if you do not accept that the world has changed and do not adapt to it you will be left behind. It has happened at every technological revolution in human history and the same was said by those that resisted change at each of those points.

There are people who genuinely struggle to learn new things though Col. We all assume people are as bright as us (well as bright as you, at least), and they really are not. I am sure that you don't want these people to starve because at some point in the future everyone does their food shopping on line, or not be able to make a doctors appointment if they are ill? Of course you don't. So let them carry on with their luddite lives, which have no real massive negative affect on your effortless glide along the information superhighway anyway, and continue to run a cashless society alongside people for whom cash will always be king.

On another note - just how easy is it for an individual to get hold of a credit card reader?

colthe3rd

Algarveaddick said:

colthe3rd said:

seth plum said:

colthe3rd said:

LenGlover said:

colthe3rd said:

LenGlover said:

Katrien Meire heaven. She's in the wrong business.

Marginalise the elderly or those who cannot afford the latest all singing all dancing mobile telephone.

Elitist and dividing yet the irony is that the most strident advocates will regard themselves as socialist and inclusive.

So the elderly don't have a bank card? WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE OLD PEOPLE????!!!!!

A bank card doesn't help you pay Dartford Crossing charges with a phone app.

A lot of old gits like me still have a mobile phone for making and receiving phone calls and a text message.

My old antique phone actually has a camera on it so if I really feel like living on the edge I occasionally take a photograph all of which will be lost of course once my telephone finally dies a death.

Words like 'App' to me and many others of my vintage is the equivalent of trying to read the excellent work of @ROT, chronicled in other threads, in the original Flemish or is it Dutch or Walloon?

The patronising sniffy attitude towards the technologically disabled, demonstrated by the post I have quoted, is widespread too so does not encourage engagement as nobody likes been laughed at for their inept efforts in any field.

I am the cyber fat kid in the gym trying and failing to vault. I do not think I am alone either although the stigma of being technophobic in modern society seems to be worse than that accorded to racists or anti semites.

From a 30 second search I can see you can pay the Dartford crossing by many ways other than the app even with cash at payzone points.

Ignorance is not an excuse. If people are unwilling to change then that's their fault. Technology is on the whole very user friendly these days. My Dad who's in his seventies doesn't have a problem with it. Never used a computer for his work, never grew up with it but has accepted that things change and if you don't then you'll be left behind. Sure he gets stuck with some things, everyone does but all people need to do is ask for help*.

*Google.

I refer the right honourable poster to the Bexley NHS app, and ask how user friendly that system is for blind people.

I am shocked that the NHS have clocked something up. I'm not saying that every single bit of technology in use is perfect or infallible. It isn't. However on the whole it has made our lives simpler and easier.

There are of course merits to be had both ways for this but this whole debate was not about that. It was scare mongering of the modern world and my point was at the beginning and still is that if you do not accept that the world has changed and do not adapt to it you will be left behind. It has happened at every technological revolution in human history and the same was said by those that resisted change at each of those points.

There are people who genuinely struggle to learn new things though Col. We all assume people are as bright as us (well as bright as you, at least), and they really are not. I am sure that you don't want these people to starve because at some point in the future everyone does their food shopping on line, or not be able to make a doctors appointment if they are ill? Of course you don't. So let them carry on with their luddite lives, which have no real massive negative affect on your effortless glide along the information superhighway anyway, and continue to run a cashless society alongside people for whom cash will always be king.

On another note - just how easy is it for an individual to get hold of a credit card reader?

I like you Algarve but I still feel you're missing my point. There are very few places that won't accept cash payments so that argument is out. Last I checked there are still physical shops and supermarkets in which to buy food and I haven't had a doctor's surgery in which at a minimum I couldn't ring up to get an appointment.

My point is, if people want to carry on in being ignorant, then fine, doesn't affect my life whatsoever. Don't moan about change though. If people genuinely don't know how to use something there are lots of places to get help, plenty of initiatives about to help people who might struggle. To me it's all about a refusal to ask for that help not the technology itself.

seth plum

Is it about being ignorant?
I am in favour of new technology, but that technology has to be user friendly. Users ought not have to be contortionist to access the technology. Technology ought to serve us, we shouldn't have to serve it.

bobmunro

seth plum said:

Is it about being ignorant?
I am in favour of new technology, but that technology has to be user friendly. Users ought not have to be contortionist to access the technology. Technology ought to serve us, we shouldn't have to serve it.

Seth, the technology designed for mass use, e.g. Apple Pay, has to be user friendly, otherwise it won't be used.

WSS

seth plum said:

Is it about being ignorant?
I am in favour of new technology, but that technology has to be user friendly. Users ought not have to be contortionist to access the technology. Technology ought to serve us, we shouldn't have to serve it.

Contortionist? You have to slide your thumb up and down on a bit of screen, not escape from a straight jacket whilst being submerged in a locked tank of water in a swimming pool.

seth plum

WSS said:

seth plum said:

Is it about being ignorant?
I am in favour of new technology, but that technology has to be user friendly. Users ought not have to be contortionist to access the technology. Technology ought to serve us, we shouldn't have to serve it.

Contortionist? You have to slide your thumb up and down on a bit of screen, not escape from a straight jacket whilst being submerged in a locked tank of water in a swimming pool.

Sometimes feels like that.

WSS

God knows how you learnt to drive a car and understand all of the different symbols on the dashboard and steering wheel!

cafcfan

Algarveaddick said:

colthe3rd said:

seth plum said:

colthe3rd said:

LenGlover said:

colthe3rd said:

LenGlover said:

Katrien Meire heaven. She's in the wrong business.

Marginalise the elderly or those who cannot afford the latest all singing all dancing mobile telephone.

Elitist and dividing yet the irony is that the most strident advocates will regard themselves as socialist and inclusive.

So the elderly don't have a bank card? WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE OLD PEOPLE????!!!!!

A bank card doesn't help you pay Dartford Crossing charges with a phone app.

A lot of old gits like me still have a mobile phone for making and receiving phone calls and a text message.

My old antique phone actually has a camera on it so if I really feel like living on the edge I occasionally take a photograph all of which will be lost of course once my telephone finally dies a death.

Words like 'App' to me and many others of my vintage is the equivalent of trying to read the excellent work of @ROT, chronicled in other threads, in the original Flemish or is it Dutch or Walloon?

The patronising sniffy attitude towards the technologically disabled, demonstrated by the post I have quoted, is widespread too so does not encourage engagement as nobody likes been laughed at for their inept efforts in any field.

I am the cyber fat kid in the gym trying and failing to vault. I do not think I am alone either although the stigma of being technophobic in modern society seems to be worse than that accorded to racists or anti semites.

From a 30 second search I can see you can pay the Dartford crossing by many ways other than the app even with cash at payzone points.

Ignorance is not an excuse. If people are unwilling to change then that's their fault. Technology is on the whole very user friendly these days. My Dad who's in his seventies doesn't have a problem with it. Never used a computer for his work, never grew up with it but has accepted that things change and if you don't then you'll be left behind. Sure he gets stuck with some things, everyone does but all people need to do is ask for help*.

*Google.

I refer the right honourable poster to the Bexley NHS app, and ask how user friendly that system is for blind people.

I am shocked that the NHS have clocked something up. I'm not saying that every single bit of technology in use is perfect or infallible. It isn't. However on the whole it has made our lives simpler and easier.

There are of course merits to be had both ways for this but this whole debate was not about that. It was scare mongering of the modern world and my point was at the beginning and still is that if you do not accept that the world has changed and do not adapt to it you will be left behind. It has happened at every technological revolution in human history and the same was said by those that resisted change at each of those points.

There are people who genuinely struggle to learn new things though Col. We all assume people are as bright as us (well as bright as you, at least), and they really are not. I am sure that you don't want these people to starve because at some point in the future everyone does their food shopping on line, or not be able to make a doctors appointment if they are ill? Of course you don't. So let them carry on with their luddite lives, which have no real massive negative affect on your effortless glide along the information superhighway anyway, and continue to run a cashless society alongside people for whom cash will always be king.

On another note - just how easy is it for an individual to get hold of a credit card reader?

Very easy (and cheap) indeed. But what are they going to learn? There's bugger all on the chip other than what's on the magnetic strip. That is the stuff that's printed on the front anyway. Name, card number, expiry and the three or four digit CVV number off the back. The main exception being that (I think) your PIN is also stored on the chip. But my understanding is that everything on the chip is encrypted. So, unless you are also in possession of the encryption key, even if it could be read it would just be gobbledegook. It only becomes intelligible once it "speaks" with the service providers servers.

As I understand it, this is why most card fraud these days is internet based rather than with a physical card presence. (As you can't Chip & PIN on-line, you use the CVV instead. So, if someone has stolen your card, they can purchase on-line until such time as one of those extra security question pages pops up or your report it missing and get it blocked.)

Edited to add: It's a mystery to me why they still ask you to sign the back of a new card. When did anyone last have it checked? In any event the surface is so slippy, and the strip so small, it looks nothing much like my actual signature anyway.

seth plum

bobmunro said:

seth plum said:

Is it about being ignorant?
I am in favour of new technology, but that technology has to be user friendly. Users ought not have to be contortionist to access the technology. Technology ought to serve us, we shouldn't have to serve it.

Seth, the technology designed for mass use, e.g. Apple Pay, has to be user friendly, otherwise it won't be used.

I have to admit I don't have the first idea as to what Apple pay actually is. At a guess it is like what I imagine PayPal to be, but I don't have that either.
The NHS example above seems to be one where technology makes life harder not easier.
Is there also something to be wary of in terms of technology driving us towards certain private businesses rather than others?

letthegoodtimesroll

WSS said:

God knows how you learnt to drive a car and understand all of the different symbols on the dashboard and steering wheel!

The only symbol on the steering wheel in those days was the manufacturers one...

And everything on the dashboard was arbitrary, including the speedometer, if it worked, and if the indicators didn’t work you stuck your hand out of the window...

Lincsaddick

seth plum said:

bobmunro said:

seth plum said:

Is it about being ignorant?
I am in favour of new technology, but that technology has to be user friendly. Users ought not have to be contortionist to access the technology. Technology ought to serve us, we shouldn't have to serve it.

Seth, the technology designed for mass use, e.g. Apple Pay, has to be user friendly, otherwise it won't be used.

I have to admit I don't have the first idea as to what Apple pay actually is. At a guess it is like what I imagine PayPal to be, but I don't have that either.
The NHS example above seems to be one where technology makes life harder not easier.
Is there also something to be wary of in terms of technology driving us towards certain private businesses rather than others?

indeed, he/she/it who controls the algorithms, robots and apps will be the ones who control the world in the VERY near future

Rothko

So if your worried about mobile payment, don’t use Android pay, as google explicitly state they will use transaction data for their own ends. Apple explicitly don’t use it and don’t collect it

seth plum

WSS said:

God knows how you learnt to drive a car and understand all of the different symbols on the dashboard and steering wheel!

After 14 years of driving a motorcycle, learning to drive a car was a choice. It took learning the highway code, a lot of lessons and a test and it was not obligatory.
The examp!e of the NHS Bexley app seems to give the patient no choice, there are inherent assumptions that patients have the skills, and there seems to be, in a medical field no expectations that patients can suffer from blindness, poverty, physical disability and other personal challenges, and worst of all it seems to be obligatory

stonemuse

Raith_C_Chattonell said:

Talking of the olden's, shouldn't think this went down very well, not attempted to used it myself yet. The centre serves about 12,000 people, not sure how it's working, but can only guess they are making plenty of exceptions. I note that the app is specific for Bexley, maybe this is a Rolandesque experiment to be rolled out further into the borough.

Dear patient,

The Medical Centre Walk-In service will be replaced with more convenient and accessible E-Consultation service from 2 July 2018. For further details please visit our website www.belvederemedicalcentre.co.uk or download the NHS Bexley online app from the iPhone App or Google Play store. You can consult our Clinicians online and get a response back on the same day if we receive your eConsult before 1pm after which you will receive a response by the end of the next working day

Many Thanks

Reception

It does also state: "IF YOU HAVE ANY DISABILITY OR BARRIERS WHICH PREVENTS YOU FROM USING E-CONSULTATIONS THEN PLEASE CONTACT RECEPTION"

However, I am not sure what they provide as an alternative.

I use the NHS Bexley online app and have found it much more efficient, but I can understand that, for some people, it would not work.

seth plum

The NHS app could be part of a range of options, and ought not to be the only one.
I assume iPhone and Google pay the Bexley NHS for directing people to their businesses.

Duncan270566

AFKABartram said:

I’m tapping contactless more and more, which is a shame as most of my savings for kids trips / holidays are built up from collecting £2 and 20p coins in my change

More and more people are doing so on public transport and as a direct effect TfL are considering doing away with the Oystercard already. However, we are also hearing more and more excuses such as "I've left my debit/credit card at home", "My phone's out of battery" or "My contactless has stopped working" as reasons to try and bunk their fare.

Wilma

Duncan270566 said:

AFKABartram said:

I’m tapping contactless more and more, which is a shame as most of my savings for kids trips / holidays are built up from collecting £2 and 20p coins in my change

More and more people are doing so on public transport and as a direct effect TfL are considering doing away with the Oystercard already. However, we are also hearing more and more excuses such as "I've left my debit/credit card at home", "My phone's out of battery" or "My contactless has stopped working" as reasons to try and bunk their fare.

See the fare dodging pretty much every day with teenagers going from Dartford to Bluewater. Hit and Miss as to whether they'll get away with it, seen a few sent away by the bus driver whilst other fare dodgers refuse to leave the bus until the driver gives up and lets them stay on.

I have Oyster PAYG which I use for buses, I top up at payday so that if I'm a bit short of cash at the end of the month, I can still use the bus.

Covered End

Wilma said:

Duncan270566 said:

AFKABartram said:

I’m tapping contactless more and more, which is a shame as most of my savings for kids trips / holidays are built up from collecting £2 and 20p coins in my change

More and more people are doing so on public transport and as a direct effect TfL are considering doing away with the Oystercard already. However, we are also hearing more and more excuses such as "I've left my debit/credit card at home", "My phone's out of battery" or "My contactless has stopped working" as reasons to try and bunk their fare.

See the fare dodging pretty much every day with teenagers going from Dartford to Bluewater. Hit and Miss as to whether they'll get away with it, seen a few sent away by the bus driver whilst other fare dodgers refuse to leave the bus until the driver gives up and lets them stay on.

I have Oyster PAYG which I use for buses, I top up at payday so that if I'm a bit short of cash at the end of the month, I can still use the bus.

I hadn't used my Oyster for years, since contact less was introduced.
Amazingly if you use an underground ticket machine, you can get your minimal balance & £3 deposit repaid, with a couple of taps. I couldn't believe how simple it was.

Duncan270566

We had to introduce that as the ticket offices were all closed down

colthe3rd

Wilma said:

Duncan270566 said:

AFKABartram said:

I’m tapping contactless more and more, which is a shame as most of my savings for kids trips / holidays are built up from collecting £2 and 20p coins in my change

More and more people are doing so on public transport and as a direct effect TfL are considering doing away with the Oystercard already. However, we are also hearing more and more excuses such as "I've left my debit/credit card at home", "My phone's out of battery" or "My contactless has stopped working" as reasons to try and bunk their fare.

See the fare dodging pretty much every day with teenagers going from Dartford to Bluewater. Hit and Miss as to whether they'll get away with it, seen a few sent away by the bus driver whilst other fare dodgers refuse to leave the bus until the driver gives up and lets them stay on.

I have Oyster PAYG which I use for buses, I top up at payday so that if I'm a bit short of cash at the end of the month, I can still use the bus.

We have a few fare dodgers on here.

Surely the fare dodging issue is a moot. If someone says they don't have a contactless card it's no different to saying you forgot your Oyster or you forgot cash.

Tbf I've stopped using Oyster, some cases it works out cheaper to use contactless card as well.

guinnessaddick

Duncan270566 said:

We had to introduce that as the ticket offices were all closed down

I believe there won’t be ticket offices on the crossrail libe.

seth plum

I thought an Oyster card was an actual contactless card.

Covered End

seth plum said:

I thought an Oyster card was an actual contactless card.

Well it sort of is/isn't, but why go to the trouble of topping up an oyster card if you can just use a credit/debit card ?

bobmunro

seth plum said:

I thought an Oyster card was an actual contactless card.

It is, Seth but just for TfL journeys. You can use your contactless debit or credit card as well.

Duncan270566

It is, of sorts, but it still needs to be topped up. Auto top up can be set but not many people actually know that.

Duncan270566

colthe3rd said:

Wilma said:

Duncan270566 said:

AFKABartram said:

I’m tapping contactless more and more, which is a shame as most of my savings for kids trips / holidays are built up from collecting £2 and 20p coins in my change

More and more people are doing so on public transport and as a direct effect TfL are considering doing away with the Oystercard already. However, we are also hearing more and more excuses such as "I've left my debit/credit card at home", "My phone's out of battery" or "My contactless has stopped working" as reasons to try and bunk their fare.

See the fare dodging pretty much every day with teenagers going from Dartford to Bluewater. Hit and Miss as to whether they'll get away with it, seen a few sent away by the bus driver whilst other fare dodgers refuse to leave the bus until the driver gives up and lets them stay on.

I have Oyster PAYG which I use for buses, I top up at payday so that if I'm a bit short of cash at the end of the month, I can still use the bus.

We have a few fare dodgers on here.

Surely the fare dodging issue is a moot. If someone says they don't have a contactless card it's no different to saying you forgot your Oyster or you forgot cash.

Tbf I've stopped using Oyster, some cases it works out cheaper to use contactless card as well.

There are more excuses for deliberately not paying with contactless

colthe3rd

Duncan270566 said:

colthe3rd said:

Wilma said:

Duncan270566 said:

AFKABartram said:

I’m tapping contactless more and more, which is a shame as most of my savings for kids trips / holidays are built up from collecting £2 and 20p coins in my change

More and more people are doing so on public transport and as a direct effect TfL are considering doing away with the Oystercard already. However, we are also hearing more and more excuses such as "I've left my debit/credit card at home", "My phone's out of battery" or "My contactless has stopped working" as reasons to try and bunk their fare.

See the fare dodging pretty much every day with teenagers going from Dartford to Bluewater. Hit and Miss as to whether they'll get away with it, seen a few sent away by the bus driver whilst other fare dodgers refuse to leave the bus until the driver gives up and lets them stay on.

I have Oyster PAYG which I use for buses, I top up at payday so that if I'm a bit short of cash at the end of the month, I can still use the bus.

We have a few fare dodgers on here.

Surely the fare dodging issue is a moot. If someone says they don't have a contactless card it's no different to saying you forgot your Oyster or you forgot cash.

Tbf I've stopped using Oyster, some cases it works out cheaper to use contactless card as well.

There are more excuses for deliberately not paying with contactless

Go on...

Raith_C_Chattonell

stonemuse said:

Raith_C_Chattonell said:

Talking of the olden's, shouldn't think this went down very well, not attempted to used it myself yet. The centre serves about 12,000 people, not sure how it's working, but can only guess they are making plenty of exceptions. I note that the app is specific for Bexley, maybe this is a Rolandesque experiment to be rolled out further into the borough.

Dear patient,

The Medical Centre Walk-In service will be replaced with more convenient and accessible E-Consultation service from 2 July 2018. For further details please visit our website www.belvederemedicalcentre.co.uk or download the NHS Bexley online app from the iPhone App or Google Play store. You can consult our Clinicians online and get a response back on the same day if we receive your eConsult before 1pm after which you will receive a response by the end of the next working day

Many Thanks

Reception

It does also state: "IF YOU HAVE ANY DISABILITY OR BARRIERS WHICH PREVENTS YOU FROM USING E-CONSULTATIONS THEN PLEASE CONTACT RECEPTION"

However, I am not sure what they provide as an alternative.

I use the NHS Bexley online app and have found it much more efficient, but I can understand that, for some people, it would not work.

As I said I've not used it myself but confess to being a little shocked at receiving the email. I don't think the surgery would turn away anyone in difficulty, be it with technology or a disability. The thing that is lost is the very popular walk in clinic, where by and large one would be seen by a doctor within the hour. I suspect the E - consultation is a form of triage where a future appointment would be made if necessary This alone obviously builds a delay into being seen. I'm glad it works for you, I will try it myself soon enough no doubt ... but hopefully not too soon

Incidentally, have to agree with @colthe3rd. No one can stand in the way of technology.


.

Callumcafc

If cash is your records, then plastic is your CDs and online wallets are the mp3 downloads. Will cash become fashionable again over time?