Interesting debate, mostly sensibly done. My personal opinion, as opinions inevitably are, and not having watched the documentary (I may feel different when I have) is that Apu is a loveable, positive character. Part of the offence appears to be that he is voiced by a white man, okay, Hank Azaria has said he's happy for that to change.
Then again another part of the offence seems to be that he has an Indian (South Asian) accent, and his catchphrase gets used "against" Asian children. So is another actor of sub-continental origin going to come in and change Apu's accent to that of a cultured, second generation Asian American, and Apu going to have no catchphrases? Because whoever voices him, people (kids in the playground) will impersonate him "at" Asian kids, however he sounds - it's what kids do. I am sure that somewhere in the colonies, a red haired Scottish kid is having the piss ripped out of him and being called "Groundskeeper Willie" even as we speak... This does not make it right, and we need to continue educating young people that if ribbing is genuinely hurting someone, it should stop. If it is (not keen on the word, but it describes what I mean perfectly) "banter", then let it flow.
As others have said the show is all about stereotypes (cheese eating surrender monkeys, anyone...), quality of writing and "show-run-it's-course" notwithstanding, if you lose the stereotypes you lose a big part of what the show is all about.
As I wrote, I may feel differently once I have had a chance to watch the doc...
Voiced by an actor. An actor who voices other characters in the program.
He may not get the accent right, but does anyone remember Anton Rodgers Scottish accent in May to December. Now that was offensive and I am not Scottish. Hated the program but had to watch to hear him revert to his very English voice half way through a scene and then bounce back into a Scottish one.
I don't usually like wheeling this line of logic out (i.e. "hey look I'm not white!), but I feel obliged to.
Seeing a white person - or, indeed, white persons in this thread - talk about race, and how their opinion is equal to mine, does grate a little.
First, it's highly unlikely white people have experienced racism in its myriad forms nearly as much as I have. And equally, I probably haven't been overtly racially abused nearly as much as someone from the Asian subcontinent, or someone who's black. Probably because the Chinese have a reputation of keeping themselves to themselves, running a takeaway, and generally minding their own (hah, stereotyping much).
Second, white people declaring their opinions doesn't leave much room for the ethnic minorities concerned to speak up. It makes it that bit harder for their views to be expressed, in that they get lost within equality (a concept all very well and good, but flawed when dealing with inequalities such as racism - sometimes the pendulum has to go the other way [i.e. to non-racism] so eventually it all balances out).
^ addendum to the above - I realise that I am a Chinese man speaking on a thread about Apu and the portrayal of South Asians, but please take my comments as indicative of racial discourse throughout society whenever it happens, rather than on Apu.
---------------------
Anyway, back to the issue at hand, and that is Apu. I think @Manicmania raises several completely valid points in his post near the top of P2, but I'd like to comment on some of them:
- Apu's story arc is excellent. Yes. I see Much Apu About Nothing in the same ballpark as Homer's Phobia, in terms of how societal issues were challenged. However, it's a little disingenuous to focus on a handful of episodes considering there have been 600+ in the show's run. Equally - you're absolutely right MM in that the show has dealt with issues he'd be affected by really rather well.
- I've already talked about the other stereotypes, and how they're not as offensive. The key thing to think about is precedent. Was there already a precedent as to how South Asian people were viewed? No. And having Apu with a silly accent, working as a corner shop guy, saying "Thank you come again!", and so forth, reinforced stereotypes. And because he has different colour skin, apparently that's what all brown people are like - in some people's eyes. (Genuinely - if you're watching in a less ethnically diverse area of America, he's gonna be your only exposure to South Asian people, so what else would you think of them?)
- I don't find Bumblebee Man particularly funny, though he is based on a Univision Spanish language character, and I think that comes from a place of love for his slapstick (can't recall the guy's name at the minute). I'm not at ease with him.
- Many of the other stereotypes listed are of white peoples. I refer back to my point about societal precedent. When it comes to things like Homer in Brazil (which I thought was VERY tired), or when they visit Japan, the thing here is that these were one-off episodes. Thus, the lampooning isn't sustained like Apu's character, if that makes sense. (That, to me, doesn't make some aspects of these vacation episodes any less offensive. But I suppose part of the issue again is prevalence.)
- "But yeah focus on the silly accent." Yes, we should. Kumail Nanjiani, a Pakistani-American actor, was asked more than once to do "the Apu accent" to land roles. I mean, how offensive is that?!
---------------------
I hope I'm making sense here. But Apu needs to be reimagined, IMO. Get an Indian voice actor in, at the very least, given how regular a character he is.
(Another addendum - I realise that we're talking about Apu on Charlton Life right now, which is predominantly populated by white males. Pretty much all of what I've said, though, applies elsewhere on the Internet and in the real Western world.)
Get an Indian voice actor in, at the very least, given how regular a character he is.
I dont see how anyone can have a problem with that.
They need to get a really Hill Billy in at least to play Cletus.
Did you just not read my above post at all, then?
I did and thought it raised some good points, the mocking was towards to PC mob not yourself, although I can see how you took it like that, for which I apologise, I just think this whole saga is laughable(laughable being the key here we should all be able to have a giggle at each other’s differences and cultures without outrage, particularly over a cartoon).
Get an Indian voice actor in, at the very least, given how regular a character he is.
I dont see how anyone can have a problem with that.
They need to get a really Hill Billy in at least to play Cletus.
Did you just not read my above post at all, then?
The trouble on here sometimes is that you can write a long measured post which someone comments on despite not having read it.
I've never understood why some people seem so unable to accept that racism exists or to have a grown up conversation about it.
If comedy moves on in response to changing views in society then surely that's inevitable and has been going on for decades. The Simpsons has been going on since 1989 and inevitably the landscape has changed since then.
Racism as an issue doesn't really touch a lot of white people hence why they sometimes get irritated over a discussion of it.
Get an Indian voice actor in, at the very least, given how regular a character he is.
I dont see how anyone can have a problem with that.
Get a voice actor in who can do a better Indian accent.
In the long run you need a wider variety of characters. Most cartoon characters are stereotypes but at least you get a variety of white ones.
Every community has its own set of stereotypes and if comedy was more diverse we'd see more of these on the screen. There is a massive Asian population in the US but you wouldn't guess this from watching a lot of films and TV.
Get an Indian voice actor in, at the very least, given how regular a character he is.
I dont see how anyone can have a problem with that.
They need to get a really Hill Billy in at least to play Cletus.
Did you just not read my above post at all, then?
The trouble on here sometimes is that you can write a long measured post which someone comments on despite not having read it.
I've never understood why some people seem so unable to accept that racism exists or to have a grown up conversation about it.
If comedy moves on in response to changing views in society then surely that's inevitable and has been going on for decades. The Simpsons has been going on since 1989 and inevitably the landscape has changed since then.
Racism as an issue doesn't really touch a lot of white people hence why they sometimes get irritated over a discussion of it.
Because as soon as someone tries to have a grown up conversation about 'it', and doesn't subscribe to the notion of perfect political correctness it's implied by people on here that they are unable to accept that racism exists.
Get an Indian voice actor in, at the very least, given how regular a character he is.
I dont see how anyone can have a problem with that.
They need to get a really Hill Billy in at least to play Cletus.
Did you just not read my above post at all, then?
The trouble on here sometimes is that you can write a long measured post which someone comments on despite not having read it.
I've never understood why some people seem so unable to accept that racism exists or to have a grown up conversation about it.
If comedy moves on in response to changing views in society then surely that's inevitable and has been going on for decades. The Simpsons has been going on since 1989 and inevitably the landscape has changed since then.
Racism as an issue doesn't really touch a lot of white people hence why they sometimes get irritated over a discussion of it.
Because as soon as someone tries to have a grown up conversation about 'it', and doesn't subscribe to the notion of perfect political correctness it's implied by people on here that they are unable to accept that racism exists.
That's not true though is it? Some people want to have a debate and some don't - If you read some people's posts they haven't bothered to even read the post they're commenting on which is pretty stupid.
Get an Indian voice actor in, at the very least, given how regular a character he is.
I dont see how anyone can have a problem with that.
Get a voice actor in who can do a better Indian accent.
Indian guys tend to be the best at Indian accents. That was much of the point of the post.
Probably, but I am not a racist.
There is more to the job than just reading from a script and if the part is to be accurate it is not a pure Indian accent, it is the voice of an Indian who has lived most of his life in America. There maybe Americans of Indian or Pakistan heritage better suited to the part? There are some great mimics that are neither of American or Asian heritage that maybe better and could cover more than just one character like at present?
Best not to prejudge things I find.
Do you think it would be racist to advertise for an Indian actor for a voice over?
Do you think one should advertise a job with a preconceived idea what races you are going to exclude from getting the job?
Get an Indian voice actor in, at the very least, given how regular a character he is.
I dont see how anyone can have a problem with that.
They need to get a really Hill Billy in at least to play Cletus.
Did you just not read my above post at all, then?
The trouble on here sometimes is that you can write a long measured post which someone comments on despite not having read it.
I've never understood why some people seem so unable to accept that racism exists or to have a grown up conversation about it.
If comedy moves on in response to changing views in society then surely that's inevitable and has been going on for decades. The Simpsons has been going on since 1989 and inevitably the landscape has changed since then.
Racism as an issue doesn't really touch a lot of white people hence why they sometimes get irritated over a discussion of it.
Because as soon as someone tries to have a grown up conversation about 'it', and doesn't subscribe to the notion of perfect political correctness it's implied by people on here that they are unable to accept that racism exists.
That's not true though is it? Some people want to have a debate and some don't - If you read some people's posts they haven't bothered to even read the post they're commenting on which is pretty stupid.
I can't argue with your last sentence.
In response to the point I highlighted. I'm not sure what isn't true about what I said?
The challenge with the character that Hari has highlighted is that he is / was loved by an indiscriminate audience of millions yet the right to reply seemingly isn't indiscriminate.
That's where I witness the most irritation when topics like this come up and in my (less valid) opinion, that's more dangerous than the character itself.
Get an Indian voice actor in, at the very least, given how regular a character he is.
I dont see how anyone can have a problem with that.
Get a voice actor in who can do a better Indian accent.
Indian guys tend to be the best at Indian accents. That was much of the point of the post.
What would be best though, a brown American bloke who has Indian heritage, or a white Indian bloke who's parents are from the US?
I doubt you care....
?
You seem to be asking a question for no apparent purpose which is why I said this. Never mind.
So you piped up within 3 minutes with a "weird" quip, then accuse me of doing the very same, then tell me not to mind. Is this when I say "Oh the irony"
My point is - if a new actor is taken on for the role, should it be given to an American bloke who has Indian heritage and a not very good Indian accent, or a White Indian bloke who has Indian nationality with a perfect Indian accent?
Get an Indian voice actor in, at the very least, given how regular a character he is.
I dont see how anyone can have a problem with that.
They need to get a really Hill Billy in at least to play Cletus.
Did you just not read my above post at all, then?
The trouble on here sometimes is that you can write a long measured post which someone comments on despite not having read it.
I've never understood why some people seem so unable to accept that racism exists or to have a grown up conversation about it.
If comedy moves on in response to changing views in society then surely that's inevitable and has been going on for decades. The Simpsons has been going on since 1989 and inevitably the landscape has changed since then.
Racism as an issue doesn't really touch a lot of white people hence why they sometimes get irritated over a discussion of it.
Because as soon as someone tries to have a grown up conversation about 'it', and doesn't subscribe to the notion of perfect political correctness it's implied by people on here that they are unable to accept that racism exists.
That's not true though is it? Some people want to have a debate and some don't - If you read some people's posts they haven't bothered to even read the post they're commenting on which is pretty stupid.
I can't argue with your last sentence.
In response to the point I highlighted. I'm not sure what isn't true about what I said?
The challenge with the character that Hari has highlighted is that he is / was loved by an indiscriminate audience of millions yet the right to reply isn't indiscriminate.
That's where I witness the most irritation when topics like this come up and in my (less valid) opinion, that's more dangerous than the character itself.
I think we are getting our wires crossed here. There are some on here who don't want to debate and I wasn't suggesting that either of us were in this group.
I was trying to make the point that sometimes people reply to a previous post without having taken the time to read it which is a bit irritating.
Get an Indian voice actor in, at the very least, given how regular a character he is.
I dont see how anyone can have a problem with that.
Get a voice actor in who can do a better Indian accent.
Indian guys tend to be the best at Indian accents. That was much of the point of the post.
Probably, but I am not a racist.
There is more to the job than just reading from a script and if the part is to be accurate it is not a pure Indian accent, it is the voice of an Indian who has lived most of his life in America. There maybe Americans of Indian or Pakistan heritage better suited to the part? There are some great mimics that are neither of American or Asian heritage that maybe better and could cover more than just one character like at present?
Best not to prejudge things I find.
Do you think it would be racist to advertise for an Indian actor for a voice over?
Do you think one should advertise a job with a preconceived idea what races you are going to exclude from getting the job?
Have... have you just implied I'm a racist?! Or am I reading that completely wrong?
As for the part itself - Apu is ethnically Indian. Have an ethnically Indian guy voice him.
When it comes to your questions - if you're specifically looking for an Indian accent, then no it's not racist to ask for an Indian person.
Advertising a job where race is not a determining factor in how well someone can play the role and racially discriminating is, of course, racist.
If you're about to say something like "Aha! But a voiceover is just a voice!" - then, well, no. If a white man is doing an Indian accent then it contributes to a lack of ethnically diverse representation in acting, and there's the chance that the accent may offend.
Why not minimise risk and stay true to a character's background by getting someone of the same background to voice him?
Get an Indian voice actor in, at the very least, given how regular a character he is.
I dont see how anyone can have a problem with that.
Get a voice actor in who can do a better Indian accent.
Indian guys tend to be the best at Indian accents. That was much of the point of the post.
Probably, but I am not a racist.
There is more to the job than just reading from a script and if the part is to be accurate it is not a pure Indian accent, it is the voice of an Indian who has lived most of his life in America. There maybe Americans of Indian or Pakistan heritage better suited to the part? There are some great mimics that are neither of American or Asian heritage that maybe better and could cover more than just one character like at present?
Best not to prejudge things I find.
Do you think it would be racist to advertise for an Indian actor for a voice over?
Do you think one should advertise a job with a preconceived idea what races you are going to exclude from getting the job?
Have... have you just implied I'm a racist?! Or am I reading that completely wrong?
As for the part itself - Apu is ethnically Indian. Have an ethnically Indian guy voice him.
When it comes to your questions - if you're specifically looking for an Indian accent, then no it's not racist to ask for an Indian person.
Advertising a job where race is not a determining factor in how well someone can play the role and racially discriminating is, of course, racist.
If you're about to say something like "Aha! But a voiceover is just a voice!" - then, well, no. If a white man is doing an Indian accent then it contributes to a lack of ethnically diverse representation in acting, and there's the chance that the accent may offend.
Why not minimise risk and stay true to a character's background by getting someone of the same background to voice him?
Comments
He may not get the accent right, but does anyone remember Anton Rodgers Scottish accent in May to December. Now that was offensive and I am not Scottish. Hated the program but had to watch to hear him revert to his very English voice half way through a scene and then bounce back into a Scottish one.
Outrageous!!!
“Now all I have left is my massive genitals”
Seeing a white person - or, indeed, white persons in this thread - talk about race, and how their opinion is equal to mine, does grate a little.
First, it's highly unlikely white people have experienced racism in its myriad forms nearly as much as I have. And equally, I probably haven't been overtly racially abused nearly as much as someone from the Asian subcontinent, or someone who's black. Probably because the Chinese have a reputation of keeping themselves to themselves, running a takeaway, and generally minding their own (hah, stereotyping much).
Second, white people declaring their opinions doesn't leave much room for the ethnic minorities concerned to speak up. It makes it that bit harder for their views to be expressed, in that they get lost within equality (a concept all very well and good, but flawed when dealing with inequalities such as racism - sometimes the pendulum has to go the other way [i.e. to non-racism] so eventually it all balances out).
^ addendum to the above - I realise that I am a Chinese man speaking on a thread about Apu and the portrayal of South Asians, but please take my comments as indicative of racial discourse throughout society whenever it happens, rather than on Apu.
---------------------
Anyway, back to the issue at hand, and that is Apu. I think @Manicmania raises several completely valid points in his post near the top of P2, but I'd like to comment on some of them:
- Apu's story arc is excellent. Yes. I see Much Apu About Nothing in the same ballpark as Homer's Phobia, in terms of how societal issues were challenged. However, it's a little disingenuous to focus on a handful of episodes considering there have been 600+ in the show's run. Equally - you're absolutely right MM in that the show has dealt with issues he'd be affected by really rather well.
- I've already talked about the other stereotypes, and how they're not as offensive. The key thing to think about is precedent. Was there already a precedent as to how South Asian people were viewed? No. And having Apu with a silly accent, working as a corner shop guy, saying "Thank you come again!", and so forth, reinforced stereotypes. And because he has different colour skin, apparently that's what all brown people are like - in some people's eyes. (Genuinely - if you're watching in a less ethnically diverse area of America, he's gonna be your only exposure to South Asian people, so what else would you think of them?)
- I don't find Bumblebee Man particularly funny, though he is based on a Univision Spanish language character, and I think that comes from a place of love for his slapstick (can't recall the guy's name at the minute). I'm not at ease with him.
- Many of the other stereotypes listed are of white peoples. I refer back to my point about societal precedent. When it comes to things like Homer in Brazil (which I thought was VERY tired), or when they visit Japan, the thing here is that these were one-off episodes. Thus, the lampooning isn't sustained like Apu's character, if that makes sense. (That, to me, doesn't make some aspects of these vacation episodes any less offensive. But I suppose part of the issue again is prevalence.)
- "But yeah focus on the silly accent." Yes, we should. Kumail Nanjiani, a Pakistani-American actor, was asked more than once to do "the Apu accent" to land roles. I mean, how offensive is that?!
---------------------
I hope I'm making sense here. But Apu needs to be reimagined, IMO. Get an Indian voice actor in, at the very least, given how regular a character he is.
I dont see how anyone can have a problem with that.
I've never understood why some people seem so unable to accept that racism exists or to have a grown up conversation about it.
If comedy moves on in response to changing views in society then surely that's inevitable and has been going on for decades. The Simpsons has been going on since 1989 and inevitably the landscape has changed since then.
Racism as an issue doesn't really touch a lot of white people hence why they sometimes get irritated over a discussion of it.
Every community has its own set of stereotypes and if comedy was more diverse we'd see more of these on the screen. There is a massive Asian population in the US but you wouldn't guess this from watching a lot of films and TV.
There is more to the job than just reading from a script and if the part is to be accurate it is not a pure Indian accent, it is the voice of an Indian who has lived most of his life in America. There maybe Americans of Indian or Pakistan heritage better suited to the part? There are some great mimics that are neither of American or Asian heritage that maybe better and could cover more than just one character like at present?
Best not to prejudge things I find.
Do you think it would be racist to advertise for an Indian actor for a voice over?
Do you think one should advertise a job with a preconceived idea what races you are going to exclude from getting the job?
In response to the point I highlighted. I'm not sure what isn't true about what I said?
The challenge with the character that Hari has highlighted is that he is / was loved by an indiscriminate audience of millions yet the right to reply seemingly isn't indiscriminate.
That's where I witness the most irritation when topics like this come up and in my (less valid) opinion, that's more dangerous than the character itself.
My point is - if a new actor is taken on for the role, should it be given to an American bloke who has Indian heritage and a not very good Indian accent, or a White Indian bloke who has Indian nationality with a perfect Indian accent?
I was trying to make the point that sometimes people reply to a previous post without having taken the time to read it which is a bit irritating.
As for the part itself - Apu is ethnically Indian. Have an ethnically Indian guy voice him.
When it comes to your questions - if you're specifically looking for an Indian accent, then no it's not racist to ask for an Indian person.
Advertising a job where race is not a determining factor in how well someone can play the role and racially discriminating is, of course, racist.
If you're about to say something like "Aha! But a voiceover is just a voice!" - then, well, no. If a white man is doing an Indian accent then it contributes to a lack of ethnically diverse representation in acting, and there's the chance that the accent may offend.
Why not minimise risk and stay true to a character's background by getting someone of the same background to voice him?
(... Wow, am I really having to explain this?)
I mean - at least the Indian guy in that who kept wobbling his head and saying “a thousand apologies Sir” - was actually Indian.