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Inside Sport - Last Night - Graham Poll

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  • [cite]Posted By: Spankie[/cite]Yes it was me Hillsy's Up and I thoroughly enjoyed the game and having a good few words with you. Made it all the more enjoyable as I actually like the banter.
    I actually try to make a joke of player's comments if they're said semi-seriously like if a player says to me "There's two sides out here ref" I'll retort with tongue firmly in cheek "If I had a pound for every time that had been said to me I'd be a millionaire". If a player swears bline he was onside when clearly off I'll say back "Funny that, no one's ever offside fella" or if a player calls me useless I'll say "Yeah I was last week also". I don't take the comments seriously enough as I've heard them a thousand times before and realise they have little or no credit!

    Can I book you in to do some of my pre season friendlies? I rather give the cash to someone I know and who will be good rather than some random fella who I get from the league. Also what league/ league do you ref in?
  • [cite]Posted By: Spankie[/cite]I once heard a quote and it sort of rings true "Rugby is a thugs' game played by gentlemen whereas football is a gents' game played by thugs"

    I don't mean thugs in the literal sense (so please don't shoot me down) but I couldn't think of a better word.

    Totally agree with the question why in football the officials are afforded so little respect. I give the players respect and hope they reciprocate.


    A game for ruffians played by gentlemen is perhaps how a rugby player would phrase it.

    Nonetheless, it is interesting how rugby has this image based solely on the fact that they are polite to the referee. If he cannot see there is any amount of punching, stamping, gouging etc far in excess of any handbags seen on a football pitch.
  • [cite]Posted By: Hillsy's Up[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: Spankie[/cite]Yes it was me Hillsy's Up and I thoroughly enjoyed the game and having a good few words with you. Made it all the more enjoyable as I actually like the banter.
    I actually try to make a joke of player's comments if they're said semi-seriously like if a player says to me "There's two sides out here ref" I'll retort with tongue firmly in cheek "If I had a pound for every time that had been said to me I'd be a millionaire". If a player swears bline he was onside when clearly off I'll say back "Funny that, no one's ever offside fella" or if a player calls me useless I'll say "Yeah I was last week also". I don't take the comments seriously enough as I've heard them a thousand times before and realise they have little or no credit!

    Can I book you in to do some of my pre season friendlies? I rather give the cash to someone I know and who will be good rather than some random fella who I get from the league. Also what league/ league do you ref in?

    He does my league, but higher on a Saturday.

    Its bad enough you nicking players, you're not nicking our refs as well !!!
  • [cite]Posted By: cunningstunt87[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: Ledge Knows[/cite]



    Ledge - Playing 5 a side, I frequently go out my way (as a keeper) to give our ref a bit of protection during games, pulling players away from him who are trying to intimidate him. Playing last season, more than once I went out to pull players away from Referee's. I don't air my personal views to referees before, during or after games. So your comments are a bit out of order.

    And maybe if Refs talked to players during the game, Players would have a grasp of the rules.



    oh you are a keeper even bloody worse. - they are the ones furthest from the action sometimes but can still see something better than a ref 2 yards away - lol

    It is surely a players DUTY to know the laws of the game not have a ref give them a running commentary on them during a game. -

    I take your point on most instances and I am saying some of my stuff tongue in cheek don't take it to heart. It's refreshing to know you don't give refs abuse you are in a minute minority.








    [
  • quote]

    He does my league, but higher on a Saturday.

    Its bad enough you nicking players, you're not nicking our refs as well !!![/quote]

    LOL. You need to be quick out of the blocks mate.
  • [cite]Posted By: Ledge Knows[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: cunningstunt87[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: Ledge Knows[/cite]



    Ledge - Playing 5 a side, I frequently go out my way (as a keeper) to give our ref a bit of protection during games, pulling players away from him who are trying to intimidate him. Playing last season, more than once I went out to pull players away from Referee's. I don't air my personal views to referees before, during or after games. So your comments are a bit out of order.

    And maybe if Refs talked to players during the game, Players would have a grasp of the rules.



    oh you are a keeper even bloody worse. - they are the ones furthest from the action sometimes but can still see something better than a ref 2 yards away - lol

    It is surely a players DUTY to know the laws of the game not have a ref give them a running commentary on them during a game. -

    I take your point on most instances and I am saying some of my stuff tongue in cheek don't take it to heart. It's refreshing to know you don't give refs abuse you are in a minute minority.








    [

    Yeah, granted, it can be embarrassing watching someone run 50 yards to comment on a decsion, then turn back round and run the other way.

    I can see, from your point of view, that if players approach you in a friendly manner then its easier to interact. But then the majority of referees take an arrogant stance, so players don' t want to talk rationally because they know if they show a hint of weakness to a ref then its easier for him to get a card out for dissent. Hence the abuse and intimidation tactics (I'm not a pyschologist by the way, just going by previous conversations with people.

    From personal experience, even if you think the referee is shocking, you don't get anywhere by mouthing off. Just gives the game a nasty edge to it.

    My 5 a side team have a regular ref for all our matches (each ref gets allocated a divison, so they get to know all the teams in it). Our ref has said that we are the best team he refs, including the other divisions he does on other night. Simply because I give him a bit of protection, and when he needs to discipline our team, rather than booking players he simply asks me to have a word with them. To be fair to him, he's only a young guy (16/17) trying to earn a bit of money, and the sight of a load of pot bellied adults screaming at him cos he's missed the slightest of knocks winds me up a little.

    To conclude: I think the majority of refs are difficult, arrogant people, but I still go out there and try to help them out during games where possible. Therefore Refs, I am your dream player. Though the occasional bit of light hearted banter, consistency and if you just took a slightly relaxed attitude at times, I would change my opinion. Note: Thats aimed at refs in general and no particular individual.
  • Hillsy's up - I'm not free on 28 July and on holiday from 21 August but any other time I am free and happy to referee a friendly or two. I do Kent Suburbran as Smudge says on a Sunday. I have a fitness test on Sunday to determine my promotion to level 4 which will be an assistant on the Contribs and a referee in the Kent League.

    cs87 - If it's a red card, it's a red card. Simple. They have to go through the system for the proper disciplinary body to deal with. It's not the ref's fault if the player decides to jack it in. Also there are ways of appealing if you think a red has been harshly and incorrectly awarded. In my opinion 90% of red cards are for stupid things anyway like foul and abusive language and violent conduct. It's not the referee's responsibility to talk to the players and teach them the laws of the game. They're on the FA.com website and I've kindly attached a link so you can get yourself one step ahead of the game next season.

    I sincerely hope it helps.

    http://www.thefa.com/TheFA/RulesAndRegulations/FIFALawsOfTheGame/
  • Back to the man himself, anyone who talks about themselves in the 3rd person always makes me wonder about them.
    I think he came across exactly as I had expected him too: An arrogant, conceited, pathetic, self centered wannabe.
    As others have said a truly good referee should not be noticed. All this man seeks is attention and celebrity.
    As for his close relationship with Graham Barber! Well what was that all about? A pair of Jimmy Somerville headed clones!!! Very odd.
  • [cite]Posted By: Spankie[/cite]Hillsy's up - I'm not free on 28 July and on holiday from 21 August but any other time I am free and happy to referee a friendly or two. I do Kent Suburbran as Smudge says on a Sunday. I have a fitness test on Sunday to determine my promotion to level 4 which will be an assistant on the Contribs and a referee in the Kent League.

    cs87 - If it's a red card, it's a red card. Simple. They have to go through the system for the proper disciplinary body to deal with. It's not the ref's fault if the player decides to jack it in. Also there are ways of appealing if you think a red has been harshly and incorrectly awarded. In my opinion 90% of red cards are for stupid things anyway like foul and abusive language and violent conduct. It's not the referee's responsibility to talk to the players and teach them the laws of the game. They're on the FA.com website and I've kindly attached a link so you can get yourself one step ahead of the game next season.

    I sincerely hope it helps.

    http://www.thefa.com/TheFA/RulesAndRegulations/FIFALawsOfTheGame/

    Thank you. Much appreciated.

    But then most of it (see fouls and misconduct) is open to interpretation. So why can't referees tell players how they interpret it? Don't you agree that it would be easier for players (in general) to respect referees (in general) if you took a relaxed attitude, as opposed to an arrogant defensive one?
  • Back to the original thread....again.....
    What do you reckon Murinho said to him that was so unrepeatable? Something about his relationship with Fergie.
    Something like.....
    "Why don't you give Fergie another blow job?"
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  • edited June 2007
    The issue with Refereeing is pretty simple. Either the Authorities back Ref's to the hilt and organise themselves around the premise that the referee's decision is final or the anarchy will increasingly prevail. Already we now have a measure of anarchy. Referees are expected to review and if necessary, overturn decisions they made in the heat of the game. The authorities review decisions "missed" by referees and impose greater punishments. Managers are encouraged to evaluate referee's performances and also are expected by the god of the TV to offer an instant "rent a quote", for the viewers. And slow motion cameras from a multitude of angles, potentially undermines decision made at the pace of the game.

    What this has led to in an undermining of the authority of referees. The feeling that at all levels of the game from local park to the New Wembley, the referee is fair game for verbal and on occasions physical intimidation and abuse. Well we've got what we deserve in my opinion and a potential disaster ensues with refereeing seen as too much hassle to want to get involved with.

    As I understand it, one of Poll's beefs with the authorities is the lack of support given to referees. He's right.

    Whats to be done?

    Stop the managers evaluation of referees.
    Stop retrospective decision making
    Enforce rules against dissent/intimidation of referees
    Stand up to the power of the clubs in their attempts to undermine referees

    Will that happen?

    In a word - no. The vested interests hold too many trump cards. I seriously fear for the game.
  • as opposed to an arrogant defensive one?

    ___________________

    This may be a little controversial, however: would you come out and say that all people of a certain ethnic origin are muggers, even though it's not true, as that's just as much of a sweeping generalisation as some of the comments you've made here are. Yes, some ref's are jumped up power tripping prick's I'm sure, however most are not, most are from that just people like to focus on the negatives.

    Without ref giving up their time to come and help you there would be no matches, then what would you do for enjoyment?
  • [cite]Posted By: Stu of SE7[/cite]as opposed to an arrogant defensive one?

    ___________________

    This may be a little controversial, however: would you come out and say that all people of a certain ethnic origin are muggers, even though it's not true, as that's just as much of a sweeping generalisation as some of the comments you've made here are. Yes, some ref's are jumped up power tripping prick's I'm sure, however most are not, most are from that just people like to focus on the negatives.

    Without ref giving up their time to come and help you there would be no matches, then what would you do for enjoyment?

    I'm talking about the majority of Refs that I've had in the past couple of seasons. I'm talking from experience and have used the word "majority" not "all". You can only comment on what you've seen, which is all I've done. I go out my way to try and offer referees some sort of protection when I'm playing, frequently defending them from the types of intimidation that others have talked about on here. But the majority are still "jumped up pricks" in my opinion (going on the basis of the referee's I've had)
  • Referees at all levels, from 5 a side and park refs, all the way up to Professional refs are jumped up little shits who believe the game is about them.
    _________________

    That's an 'all' comment.

    As stated before, how can you expect a referee to aplogise for getting something wrong if he thinks he's got it right, surely he has nothing to apologise for. As a general rule people don't go out of their way to ruin your weekend, sometime they make mistakes and god forbid maybe even sometimes you get it wrong and maybe the oppo should have had that free kick.

    Peoples constant slagging off of refs is ruining the game it really needs to stop.
  • [cite]Posted By: DJ Davey Dave[/cite]Back to the original thread....again.....
    What do you reckon Murinho said to him that was so unrepeatable? Something about his relationship with Fergie.
    Something like.....
    "Why don't you give Fergie another blow job?"

    Something along those lines and about homosexuality I reckon. It funny though thinking back, David Moyes praised him one minute, then when he sent off McFadden for calling him a cheating C**t, Moyes dragged Mcfadden into a press conference to denied he'd said that.....and asked the press who they beleived?

    IMO thats not fair.
  • What a cracking thread I have started....Fight, Fight, Fight....
  • Don't you agree that it would be easier for players (in general) to respect referees (in general) if you took a relaxed attitude, as opposed to an arrogant defensive one?

    The flip side of the coin is why can't all players have a respectful attitude to referees because not all do. Some are defensive and arrogant because of the abuse and dissent they have received either recently or throughout their time with the whistle. It works both ways. Some are sick of having their authority questioned time and time and time again so build up their own level of defensiveness. We are human after all.

    I still think calling the majority of refs jumped up pricks is not only extremely harsh but probably wide of the mark.

    You have your opinion I just wish it was a little more positive.
  • How true the Moyes/McFadden thing is. The referee's secretary of my Sunday League said you can see from the referee's scores from both teams who's won and who's lost as the winning team will give the ref an 8 and the losing team will give a 4. Also you can have a great game and both teams knowing that and give a contentious penalty in the 89th minute which makes one team lose. Their mark will probably go from a 9 to below 5 in an instant just because they don't agree with the decision and have lost late in the day indirectly because of a refereeing decision. Swings and roundabouts.
  • Players admit they make mistakes, despite at the time thinking they are doing the right thing. They can admit their mistakes afterwards.

    Managers admit they make mistakes, despite at the time thinking they are doing the right thing. They can admit their mistakes afterwards.

    Referees don't. They choose not to. I'll give you a great example. A couple of years ago, a team I was playing for were 9-0 down in a league match with around 15 minutes left to go. The opposition had a corner, from it had a free shot at goal which hit the defender at the near posts hand. They put the ball in the net anyway, but the ref sent him off, booked me for asking him why it was necessary to give our player a red card given that they had scored and were beating us anyway, and the ref awarded a penalty (which I saved anyway). Our player got a £25 fine and a 3 game ban and said sod this, quit football. See the type of arrogant, petulant attitude that refs have? He could have rescinded it at the final whistle and everyone would probably have agreed that he had done the right thing. He could have ignored it and let their goal stand.

    If our team had done him over in the car park and he had quit reffing there would have been an uproar. You can't have it both ways.
  • i think sending someone off and standing your ground and someone sulking and quitting football because of a decision (that isn't ilfe or death) can't be compared to a group of footballers 'doing him in' in the car park!

    there are rules in football that are there to be kept to, yeah, sometimes leniency is favoured, however, beating someone up because of it, is a ridiculous notion that isn't comparable. yes, there would be an uproar if he was beaten up because there is no reason for it!!!

    i understand what you're trying to say towards some referee's that you have come across in your games, but your way of arguing your point has a few flaws.

    les_says plays 5 a side twice a week, and the refs ring for their chinese whilst standing there supposedly watching his games. they're a joke and tempers flare, but more because the refs couldn't give a crap rather than making wrong critical decisions. it is after all, only football.
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  • By doing him over you would have broken the law, he did no such thing.
  • I think CS87 your arguments are flawed (as most people have agreed) and you have little respect for referees. Ok you might not verbally abuse them yourself but your attitute towards them by this thread clearly stinks.
    The referee was well within his rights to do that he did. He would have been right both times to allow the goal and show not red card and to show a red card and give a penalty. The score at the time is of little consequence.
    Remember last year's CL final when Lehmann ran out and fouled Eto'o, the ball ended up in the net but the referee had blown for the foul, gave the free kick and gave Lehmann a red card. He could have let the game go on and give the goal and spare Lehmann. Is what he did wrong?
  • [cite]Posted By: Spankie[/cite]Don't you agree that it would be easier for players (in general) to respect referees (in general) if you took a relaxed attitude, as opposed to an arrogant defensive one?

    The flip side of the coin is why can't all players have a respectful attitude to referees because not all do. Some are defensive and arrogant because of the abuse and dissent they have received either recently or throughout their time with the whistle. It works both ways. Some are sick of having their authority questioned time and time and time again so build up their own level of defensiveness. We are human after all.

    I still think calling the majority of refs jumped up pricks is not only extremely harsh but probably wide of the mark.

    You have your opinion I just wish it was a little more positive.

    Maybe calling the majority of referee's "jumped up pricks" is extremely harsh and wide of the mark. Maybe its not. When I've had every referee in he country officiate a game, I would be able to give a more accurate response. However, I can only comment on the referee's I've had.

    If referee's took a more relaxed attitude in talking to players then maybe players would have more respect for them. If players had more respect for the referee, then maybe the referee would have a more relaxed attitude. Its a cycle, which is why I try to help referees, by not giving them any backchat and giving them a bit of defence when players want to start the intimidation tactics. But only at 5 a side do we get a ref we can deal with, who has a relaxed attitude and I get a bit of respect back from.

    Swings and Roundabouts.
  • edited June 2007
    All this stuff aout referees being 'jumped up pricks' or references that indicate the game is bigger than them are wie of the mark. Almost as wide of the mark about your sweeping statement that you 'don't like coppers'. What - all of them? Even thought the majority of them are just doing a job (lets face it, a job that most of us wouldn't like to do) that is wholly (and increasingly) necessary?

    Yes there are shit referees. Christ knows I've have some referee games I've played in in my time - including the following pearlers:

    A woman who refereed in the Camden Sunday league a few years back who memorably, after our team had literally been kicked off the park without a single word of caution from her, halfway through the second half deciding finally to put her foot down by threatening to book me for having my shirt untucked (thats is NOT apocryphal - it didn't happen to a 'mate of a mate' - it happened to ME)

    An asian ref who ignored two opponents calling one of my teammates a 'c**n', then sent him off in the second half after he retaliated by calling one of them a 'pikey' - the ref said he had called him a 'p*ki' and sent him of for racial abuse - even though, as well as being untrue, it was absurd as the bloke concerned was white

    A ref in the Morden & District who once sent our LINESMAN off because he 'wasn't satisfied with his impartiality' - this after we had been coerced into using the ref as he 'just happened to be hanging aroudn the changing rooms after his game was cancelled and our ref didn't turn up'. The team concerned were bottom of the division, and shite - every single decision our linesman had made was correct - not one of them was borderline.

    So yes, there are shit refs who don't know the laws of the game, unfit refs who can't keep up with play and, sometimes, plain flat-out cheating refs. However, as I suspect is the case with the Old Bill, the vast majority of refs - especially above level 5, are reasonably decent. Occasionally they will have a shit game, but don't deserve the often serious abuse they get. Come on - hand on heart - how many on here who have played football to any reasonable standard can say they haven't overstepped the mark with a ref and later thought 'bollocks - that was out of order'? i know I have - on more than one occasion. There's no way I'd want to do it (20 quid a game? for all that stick?) and I think Poll, although he's obviously a self-promoter of the highest order, highlighted some very valid points in the programme.
  • The point about "doing him over" in the car park was meant as a comparison between the physical intimidation from players that can force referees to quit football, and the over zealous actions from referees that can force players to quit football. I wasn't condoning violence, or even suggesting it should have happened. I was comparing the arguements that have been put forward from both sides.

    Spankie, he was wrong. It was petulant. Even their players were asking the referee not to send him off and shaking his hand as he went off. We were 9-0 down in a saturday afternoon game at hall place. Not 0-0 20 minutes into a Champions league final. There was no financial gain from our result. Its ridiculous to imply that in any way, shape or form he was right in his decision.
  • He was applying the laws of the game so cannot ever be considered to be doing anything wrong. I've had players tell me not to caution or send off but I have. Players bully refs - intimidate them, swear at them - call it what you will, everyone knows that, that's the basis of this thread but to even try to compare it to what referees have done to players is ridiculous as Suzi has pointed out. Refs don't swear at players, shout at them, call them c**ts, cheats, useless, joke (need I go on?) but I have and I'm still here and enjoying doing my stint every weekend in black. So if players don't like a decision given to a ref (usually a red as you point out) and they subsequently 'retire' then I cannot see for one moment how that is the fault of the referee as he was giving a decision based on the game and not meaning to retire a certain player. So that argument for me is quite ridiculous and slanted. There are appealing procedures if you feel you are hard done by as I've said before. I have an appeal for a cup final I did back in April so players do have powers.
  • [cite]Posted By: Spankie[/cite]He was applying the laws of the game so cannot ever be considered to be doing anything wrong. I've had players tell me not to caution or send off but I have. Players bully refs - intimidate them, swear at them - call it what you will, everyone knows that, that's the basis of this thread but to even try to compare it to what referees have done to players is ridiculous as Suzi has pointed out. Refs don't swear at players, shout at them, call them c**ts, cheats, useless, joke (need I go on?) but I have and I'm still here and enjoying doing my stint every weekend in black. So if players don't like a decision given to a ref (usually a red as you point out) and they subsequently 'retire' then I cannot see for one moment how that is the fault of the referee as he was giving a decision based on the game and not meaning to retire a certain player. So that argument for me is quite ridiculous and slanted. There are appealing procedures if you feel you are hard done by as I've said before. I have an appeal for a cup final I did back in April so players do have powers.

    Players don't issue Red Cards, costing the Referee £25 and a 3 week ban. I've had refs telling my team mates to "F*ck off" before. Makes me chuckle. At least they're not abusing their power and have a sense of humour.

    I've acknowledged in previous posts that Players try to intimidate referee's. I've also stated its bang out of order and I don't stand for it.
  • I remember playing once down Cold harbour and some goalie who took out an attacker in the Penalty box, went and pushed the old ref right on the floor just for giving a penalty.

    Ref's probably do need more protection, but what are the FA going to do they seem to do f all.
  • In rugby and cricket there is a strict ethos inculcated amongst all that the ref / umpire is always right even when he is wrong. There is scope within the rules and Laws to reinforce that too. For example in rugby if a ref gives a penalty and gets backchat he moves it on 10 yards.

    It seems to me that the ethos in football is very different. Players backchatting refs is one thing and often arises as an instinctive frustrated reaction with no real malice intended. I have stood on touchlines though and heard managers /coaches systematically abusing referees and that must have an element of premeditated intent to intimidate in my opinion.

    If the 10 yard rule was brought into football it would solve a lot of problems.
  • [cite]Posted By: LenGlover[/cite]In rugby and cricket there is a strict ethos inculcated amongst all that the ref / umpire is always right even when he is wrong. There is scope within the rules and Laws to reinforce that too. For example in rugby if a ref gives a penalty and gets backchat he moves it on 10 yards.

    It seems to me that the ethos in football is very different. Players backchatting refs is one thing and often arises as an instinctive frustrated reaction with no real malice intended. I have stood on touchlines though and heard managers /coaches systematically abusing referees and that must have an element of premeditated intent to intimidate in my opinion.

    If the 10 yard rule was brought into football it would solve a lot of problems.

    It wouldn't. They tried it but defending teams were using it to their advantage. To move free kicks from Good positions out of the way.
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