It is not that f***ing hard to not touch people without their consent and to take "no" as a definitive answer.
You don't travel on South Eastern then?
technically then I must be assaulted practically every day on the tube. It's got ridiculous when a brush on the knee is considered an assault or inappropriate. In my opinion it's trivialising actual assaults.
Accidental brushes are NEVER characterised as assault. This is a ridiculous strawman
This case is interesting. There are a couple of rumours circulating out here about this. I repeat, they’re only rumours. I should point out at this point that there are serious flaws in the way the law is upheld here in Dubai - including corruption, hypocrisy and, abuse of power and influence by certain people - as a result, there are lists of dos and don’ts that are just worth following - this includes swearing, being a lairy drunk etc. There’s also an attitude amongst expats here, when it comes to minor offences (driving offences etc) that it’s not worth fighting, even when they are blatantly made up. In no way am I saying the guy deserved locking up, far from it. Anyway, I digress.
First off, there’s a story that the guy was making a move on some girl that had also caught the attention of an Arabic guy. The Brit was warned off, but he refused to back off. The Arab turned out to be a powerful local and he used the ‘hip touch’ as an excuse to get rid of the rival by calling the police, with whom he had some, ahem, influence.
Secondly, and this rumour is doing the rounds with a bit more vigour, is that after the police were called (possibly because of the above scenario) they approached the guy and told him to bugger off (in not so many words). This version suggests that they gave him the opportunity to just leave. However, he became verbally abusive (this could mean dropping the f and c bombs, or could mean something milder, but enough for an Emirati copper to take offence. A big no-no here.) The reason for arrest was then this behaviour, but was officially the trumped up indecency charge that the influential local had alleged.
The British media has understandably jumped on the ridiculous ‘hip touch’ element of the story, but the real story is about abuse of power, both by the man who reported it, then by the authorities. I suspect the guy was kept for so long because those in charge wanted to make an example of him. (Remember, the government here don’t mind occasional stories like this, because it makes tourists think twice about getting shitfaced and behaving like they would in Ibiza. There’s also the story of a couple getting arrested for shagging on the beach - you may have read about this too?)
Like I say, still no justification for locking him up for 3 months, but it does highlight that when you go to a foreign country with vastly different cultural norms from those at home, be aware of what behaviour is considered ok.
You know how on threads like this, most people find themselves liking comments by people they usually agree with? I'm somewhat perplexed to find that on this one I'm dishing out likes to @Chippycafc and @i_b_b_o_r_g . I also very much liked @cafcfan 's post too (although I often do). Which is not to say that I disagree with equally excellent posts from @Grapevine49 and others. I suppose in short living in another European country for 24 years has changed some of my social attitudes. Whether that is a good thing, or a bad thing and which of the two countries has a "better" attitude to this kind of controversy, is something I'd better not plunge into without careful thought. And its really good to read several strands of thought on it.
One question for now. Does anyone have a good idea of how the story is playing out in other European countries? Here, it is definitely "WTAF". What about Germany and especially France? I will get a good view from Scandi-land over the weekend, land of the empowered woman, that'll be interesting.
It's important because almost certainly this is going to bring down the government. And among other things that will then mean that
1. Andrea Leadsom's egregious role in this as a politician (as opposed to a woman) will escape proper scrutiny.
2. As another Lifer said to me in a PM, this will probably catch Johnson. If so I will be seriously disappointed. He needs to be held to account for spunking £900m on projects including the Olympic Stadium simply to assist his career ambitions, as well as the business of seeking to organise a serious physical assault on a journalist who had annoyed him. If he resigns for something similar to what we have so far heard about Fallon, he will escape that scrutiny.
Bring down the government? I reckon there will be a couple of sacrificial bunnies for labour and conservatives, then it'll die down, be brushed under the rug and crappy business as usual. I can't see the momentum continue
I think an MP will end up taking an accuser to court
With you on this. They have both the money & the balls to do it. Wont ever get that far though - too much "he said, she said". Just look this mornings headlines. Conservative MP suspended & he's saying the party haven't even yet told him why.
My mother worked in the hospitality industry for 30 years, she told me yesterday if she took everyone to court who pinched her arse, made lewd comments about her boobs, bought her a drink in the hope to get off with her, she would be in court for the next 40 years.
As an apprentice in engineering many years ago, the treatment i got by being stripped naked, bollocks covered In blue, broomsticks up my arse, all part of being growing from a boy to a man, i wouldnt dream of making a complaint about them, and that was more humiliating and degrading than what is happening to some distressed individuals.
And before anyone gets on my case, my two younger brothers and myself were sexually abused by one of my uncles for years, no authority was interested and he was allowed to piss off to Australia where he lives today. I never think about it until these pathetic individuals keep whining on about someone touching their leg. No doubt big compo and 5 minures of fame will make some of them get over it.
My chasing women are long time over, i do feel sorry for guys chatting up girls these days.
I’m sorry to hear of your past experience.
I do think that you need to recognise that not everyone deals with such situations in the same way. No need to judge how people feel by your own feelings towards such events.
Bring down the government? I reckon there will be a couple of sacrificial bunnies for labour and conservatives, then it'll die down, be brushed under the rug and crappy business as usual. I can't see the momentum continue
Well , it could go that way too, but listening to some experienced commentators last night, I think it was Fraser Nelson who said this govt. starts to have the feel of the last days of the Major government where the public got just totally sick of them, and nothing, absolutely nothing the govt. tried could shift that perception. Remarkable, as he said, that May could manage to get them in this state so quickly. Major had a recovering economy on his side, it still didn't cut any ice. May has the opposite, and then there is the Brexit omni-shambles. Put it this way, if she is still PM by end March, I will be very surprised.
Bring down the government? I reckon there will be a couple of sacrificial bunnies for labour and conservatives, then it'll die down, be brushed under the rug and crappy business as usual. I can't see the momentum continue
Well , it could go that way too, but listening to some experienced commentators last night, I think it was Fraser Nelson who said this govt. starts to have the feel of the last days of the Major government where the public got just totally sick of them, and nothing, absolutely nothing the govt. tried could shift that perception. Remarkable, as he said, that May could manage to get them in this state so quickly. Major had a recovering economy on his side, it still didn't cut any ice. May has the opposite, and then there is the Brexit omni-shambles. Put it this way, if she is still PM by end March, I will be very surprised.
Something else will come along to clog up the new cycle soon enough, I don't think people have long enough attention spans for a government to be brought down by scandle these days, epspecially as it seems both parties have their problems in this instance.
How often do you seeen Grenfell in the news anymore?
Bring down the government? I reckon there will be a couple of sacrificial bunnies for labour and conservatives, then it'll die down, be brushed under the rug and crappy business as usual. I can't see the momentum continue
Well , it could go that way too, but listening to some experienced commentators last night, I think it was Fraser Nelson who said this govt. starts to have the feel of the last days of the Major government where the public got just totally sick of them, and nothing, absolutely nothing the govt. tried could shift that perception. Remarkable, as he said, that May could manage to get them in this state so quickly. Major had a recovering economy on his side, it still didn't cut any ice. May has the opposite, and then there is the Brexit omni-shambles. Put it this way, if she is still PM by end March, I will be very surprised.
I see that point. The Tories by 1997 were hit with so many scandals, and were poison for at least three elections after that. I'm not getting quite the same feel this time though, largely because public perception on politicians is already at rock bottom, and scandals aren't quite as well, scandalous as before. If David mellor and his Chelsea top came out now, nobody would care.
Having said that, we are talking about potential criminal activity this time rather than just affairs
Finally some (qualified) good news in all of this, apparently the NYPD are working to build a case against Harvey Weinstein. I'm very much in favor of public shaming, lawsuits, people losing their jobs, etc., but at the end of the day what he (and many others) did was a crime, and they deserve to be punished by the judicial system.
So does anyone want to tell me why Andrea Leadsom's specific complaint against Fallon is a reasonable portrayal of unacceptable behaviour (i.e. a sackable offence if it took place in say a company management meeting) which should be taken on board by wider society.
Would anyone like to defend Leadsom against my charge that her intervention was a 100% opportunistic move by a politician against an internal rival? (Fallon, don't forget is a leading Remainer, and has been mentioned as a possible Tory leader, while Leadsom is a leading Brexiteer, and has been mentioned by herself as a possible leader).
Elphick is an ultra Brexiteer. We don't know the nature of these "serious charges" against him but I am again perplexed by the timing. I'm less sure than I am about Leadsom above but I wonder whether this could be Tory Remainer revenge, and that this could be a proxy war in the fundamental fight within the Tories which has been going on forever.
This is a serious thread, about a serious subject that deeply affects a lot of people, do you think we could keep the Brexit bullshit out of it.
You can't separate it from other issues.
Rubbish - it's about sexual harassment allegations. Brexit has sod all to do with this yet still manages to sneak in.
Brexit is the big news story of the decade. It is something that many people are extremely worried and extremely bitter about. It has completely hamstrung the government ever since the referendum; there is practically nothing else going on. For this reason it's bound to 'sneak in' to every discussion with the slightest political angle. Brexiteers calling it 'bullshit' or 'rubbish or telling others not to discuss it, isn't going to cut any ice. It just belies the fact that they don't understand how concerned and upset people are about it.
This is a serious thread, about a serious subject that deeply affects a lot of people, do you think we could keep the Brexit bullshit out of it.
You can't separate it from other issues.
Rubbish - it's about sexual harassment allegations. Brexit has sod all to do with this yet still manages to sneak in.
Alright. Let's remove "Brexit" and change it to "hard-right" versus "centre -right". Again a long standing division within the Tories. Go on, tell me why we should take Leadsom at face value in coming forward with this now.
In making my own call on Leadsom I look at her not as a woman but as a politician. She displays vaulting ambition in inverse proportion to her actual ability, a complete lack of awareness of her own absurdity, and an embelllishment of her cv which amounts to lying. In short almost identical to Boris Johnson. As with Johnson therefore I don't trust a single thing she says or does. Now tell me that in this case she deserves a more sympathetic hearing.
And don't think I make this up on my own. On Twitter an unnamed Minister was quoted as saying "Is she trying to bring down the entire Government?"
As a fellow Liberal Democrat, I often wonder how you know so much about so many politicians? I mean Leadsom. You've got to find some pretty obscure political corners to discover she has limited ability and vaulting ambition, dont you? All politicians are ambitious - how is this one so much more so (apart from one unattributed tweet)?
This is a serious thread, about a serious subject that deeply affects a lot of people, do you think we could keep the Brexit bullshit out of it.
You can't separate it from other issues.
Rubbish - it's about sexual harassment allegations. Brexit has sod all to do with this yet still manages to sneak in.
Alright. Let's remove "Brexit" and change it to "hard-right" versus "centre -right". Again a long standing division within the Tories. Go on, tell me why we should take Leadsom at face value in coming forward with this now.
I really couldn't care a tinkers cuss about Andrea Leadsom. The whole Brexit charade started to bore me about a week after the vote.
Whatever the position, whether now, next week or in two years time, there is feck all you or I can do a thing about it.
No problem with people having opinions, but the Brexit threads just get hijacked by the same individuals mostly (in my opinion) by posters attempting to show up those who voted out as being racist and stupid.
I gave up after a poster I know well made his first post I'd seen from him on the subject (he has similar concerns as me) and the response he got was completely disrespectful. Not even bothered opening the thread since then.
This thread is about sexual harassment allegations. Other than the newspapers loving a bit of scandal with politicians, I see no reason to bring Brexit into this subject. Other than to point score. Personally, I don't believe this is an appropriate subject to do that.
Comments
I should point out at this point that there are serious flaws in the way the law is upheld here in Dubai - including corruption, hypocrisy and, abuse of power and influence by certain people - as a result, there are lists of dos and don’ts that are just worth following - this includes swearing, being a lairy drunk etc. There’s also an attitude amongst expats here, when it comes to minor offences (driving offences etc) that it’s not worth fighting, even when they are blatantly made up. In no way am I saying the guy deserved locking up, far from it. Anyway, I digress.
First off, there’s a story that the guy was making a move on some girl that had also caught the attention of an Arabic guy. The Brit was warned off, but he refused to back off. The Arab turned out to be a powerful local and he used the ‘hip touch’ as an excuse to get rid of the rival by calling the police, with whom he had some, ahem, influence.
Secondly, and this rumour is doing the rounds with a bit more vigour, is that after the police were called (possibly because of the above scenario) they approached the guy and told him to bugger off (in not so many words). This version suggests that they gave him the opportunity to just leave. However, he became verbally abusive (this could mean dropping the f and c bombs, or could mean something milder, but enough for an Emirati copper to take offence. A big no-no here.) The reason for arrest was then this behaviour, but was officially the trumped up indecency charge that the influential local had alleged.
The British media has understandably jumped on the ridiculous ‘hip touch’ element of the story, but the real story is about abuse of power, both by the man who reported it, then by the authorities. I suspect the guy was kept for so long because those in charge wanted to make an example of him. (Remember, the government here don’t mind occasional stories like this, because it makes tourists think twice about getting shitfaced and behaving like they would in Ibiza. There’s also the story of a couple getting arrested for shagging on the beach - you may have read about this too?)
Like I say, still no justification for locking him up for 3 months, but it does highlight that when you go to a foreign country with vastly different cultural norms from those at home, be aware of what behaviour is considered ok.
Anyway, back to the discussion...
One question for now. Does anyone have a good idea of how the story is playing out in other European countries? Here, it is definitely "WTAF". What about Germany and especially France? I will get a good view from Scandi-land over the weekend, land of the empowered woman, that'll be interesting.
It's important because almost certainly this is going to bring down the government. And among other things that will then mean that
1. Andrea Leadsom's egregious role in this as a politician (as opposed to a woman) will escape proper scrutiny.
2. As another Lifer said to me in a PM, this will probably catch Johnson. If so I will be seriously disappointed. He needs to be held to account for spunking £900m on projects including the Olympic Stadium simply to assist his career ambitions, as well as the business of seeking to organise a serious physical assault on a journalist who had annoyed him. If he resigns for something similar to what we have so far heard about Fallon, he will escape that scrutiny.
A grope, hand on leg is one word against another.
I do think that you need to recognise that not everyone deals with such situations in the same way. No need to judge how people feel by your own feelings towards such events.
How often do you seeen Grenfell in the news anymore?
Having said that, we are talking about potential criminal activity this time rather than just affairs
Finally some (qualified) good news in all of this, apparently the NYPD are working to build a case against Harvey Weinstein. I'm very much in favor of public shaming, lawsuits, people losing their jobs, etc., but at the end of the day what he (and many others) did was a crime, and they deserve to be punished by the judicial system.
Would anyone like to defend Leadsom against my charge that her intervention was a 100% opportunistic move by a politician against an internal rival? (Fallon, don't forget is a leading Remainer, and has been mentioned as a possible Tory leader, while Leadsom is a leading Brexiteer, and has been mentioned by herself as a possible leader).
Elphick is an ultra Brexiteer. We don't know the nature of these "serious charges" against him but I am again perplexed by the timing. I'm less sure than I am about Leadsom above but I wonder whether this could be Tory Remainer revenge, and that this could be a proxy war in the fundamental fight within the Tories which has been going on forever.
You can't separate it from other issues.
Yes, he dabbled in the Yakult.
In making my own call on Leadsom I look at her not as a woman but as a politician. She displays vaulting ambition in inverse proportion to her actual ability, a complete lack of awareness of her own absurdity, and an embelllishment of her cv which amounts to lying. In short almost identical to Boris Johnson. As with Johnson therefore I don't trust a single thing she says or does. Now tell me that in this case she deserves a more sympathetic hearing.
And don't think I make this up on my own. On Twitter an unnamed Minister was quoted as saying "Is she trying to bring down the entire Government?"
I mean Leadsom. You've got to find some pretty obscure political corners to discover she has limited ability and vaulting ambition, dont you?
All politicians are ambitious - how is this one so much more so (apart from one unattributed tweet)?
Whatever the position, whether now, next week or in two years time, there is feck all you or I can do a thing about it.
No problem with people having opinions, but the Brexit threads just get hijacked by the same individuals mostly (in my opinion) by posters attempting to show up those who voted out as being racist and stupid.
I gave up after a poster I know well made his first post I'd seen from him on the subject (he has similar concerns as me) and the response he got was completely disrespectful. Not even bothered opening the thread since then.
This thread is about sexual harassment allegations. Other than the newspapers loving a bit of scandal with politicians, I see no reason to bring Brexit into this subject. Other than to point score. Personally, I don't believe this is an appropriate subject to do that.