so today, Michael Fallon resigns because he touched a reporters knee 15 years ago, and by all accounts she has dismissed it & is all water under the bridge.
Now I read that Dustin Hoffman touched a 17 year old girl & made sexual comments , back in 1985.
Is it me, or are we now going over the top with "historical sexual advances". Yes, they may not have been right or appropriate & shouldn't have happened, but they were years ago & hardly the crime of the century. I doubt whether either women now thinks about the incidents & hasn't affected their lives.
It happened, its in the past, lets move on.
Re final line.
Would you say this to a member of your family in the same situation?
Lets just say that something did happen to me when I was a teenager - it would now be classed as sexual abuse but at the time I considered it as just part of growing up. It only happened once but it hasn't scarred me for life.
The 2 incidents I mentioned in my OP are far less worse & imo nothing to get hung up about. There might be more to Fallon but I was commenting on the reported incident with Hartley-Brewer.
There's no way Fallon resigned because of the knee touching incident. The rumours are that he had an affair with another man.
The spreadsheet is an internal Tory document, disaster for them that it's been leaked. There's some pretty strange allegations on their including that there is a video of one MP with three men urinating on him...
It's important to remember that what one person may find acceptable, or even exciting, is what someone else might find deeply disturbing.
I was, arguably, sexually harassed by a very attractive co-worker for a while. I didn't mind it at all, I quite enjoyed it. But that doesn't mean I should expect anyone else to. Male or female. And in the case of women, there's the inherent issue of them being far more vulnerable. It would have been easy for me to physically stop 'Vicky' from rubbing her boobs on me in the office, but if the roles were reversed, it would have been pretty scary for her to know she couldn't physically stop me.
We know where the lines are. Don't cross them unless you're invited to. At which point the line ceases to exist anyway.
I realise now of course that I should have hunted down a police officer and made a complaint about a sexual assault.
This kind of thing is exactly my point. 'Vicky' would have had every right to make a formal complaint if I was doing stuff to her. It's outrageous, to me at least, to belittle anyone for doing so just because your outlook and experiences differ.
There's no way Fallon resigned because of the knee touching incident. The rumours are that he had an affair with another man.
The spreadsheet is an internal Tory document, disaster for them that it's been leaked. There's some pretty strange allegations on their including that there is a video of one MP with three men urinating on him...
First, a flashback. Remember the media banging on every day about dangerous dogs? We even ended up with an ill-thought out and badly drafted piece of legislation. Have dangerous dogs gone away now? No, of course not, it's just that nobody in the media can be arsed to report dog attacks much anymore - unless they are really serious. Anyway, the latest exposés are beginning to border upon mass hysteria.
We now have a rabid witch hunt of ancient incidents of people not covering themselves in glory. Things have not just moved on in the working environment they have turned daily life into the equivalent of a gathering of Quakers.
There can be no doubt, surely, that a percentage of these claims that are coming out of the woodwork are malicious, false allegations made solely in the hope of achieving some compo and/or a few seconds of fame? In any event the vast majority of them will be utterly impossible to prove.
Working environments everywhere were very different many years ago. Touching, fondling and much more were everyday events. Here's a few examples: blokes in a hot environment wearing nothing more than their overalls lying under printing machines while maintaining them and having their bollocks squeezed by the women workers. (Apparently they thought it funny when the engineer, in shock banged his head on a lump of metal); a secretary stuffing her hand down my trouser pocket to fondle my cock; another who lifted her top up and asked if I liked her bra and to guess her cup size (I got it right BTW); a female member of staff in a very short skirt, sent home for not wearing knickers; an infamous gang-bang at the company Sports Club. (When the story got back to the woman's boss he asked her if she wanted to make a complaint. She told him to mind his own fucking business: she'd instigated it); a girl that didn't get a bonus and shouted across the office at her boss "so the blow job wasn't any good then?"
Sure I have been deliberately one-sided here but you'll notice a theme. None of these instances involved men using their position/power to abuse young girls. This is not a one-way street.
Finally, a story I have told before. A few years after I packed up work - I guess I was around 57 years old at the time, a girl in her teens squeezed my bum and said "nice arse" as she walked by while I was waiting for my train at Stratford Station. At the time, although she was obviously more than a little drunk, I just felt a little chuffed. I realise now of course that I should have hunted down a police officer and made a complaint about a sexual assault.
A politician touching someone's knee - really? Is that the best they can come up with? It's all a little bit like the Loudun Possessions isn't it? When is Fallon getting burned at the stake? Will Corbyn, (some years after inviting his mates round to view a naked Diane Abbott in his bed) ask conference to change his job title to "Lord Protector"?
Am I glad I don't have to go to work anymore. It must be a puritanical nightmare! These days someone would probably complain about you if you complimented their frock or their new hairstyle.
Your examples aren't of women abusing their power or status either.
There's been some sort of spreadsheet been released within Westminster that has names of MP's and the women they've reportedly been inappropriate with. My ex missus is on it and she's had to come out on twitter to deny her boss was anything other than completely professional. It's all very sad.
That’s the spreadsheet I got sent by my mate - picture of it I mean
Won’t be long until it’s doing the rounds on Twitter I guess
First, a flashback. Remember the media banging on every day about dangerous dogs? We even ended up with an ill-thought out and badly drafted piece of legislation. Have dangerous dogs gone away now? No, of course not, it's just that nobody in the media can be arsed to report dog attacks much anymore - unless they are really serious. Anyway, the latest exposés are beginning to border upon mass hysteria.
We now have a rabid witch hunt of ancient incidents of people not covering themselves in glory. Things have not just moved on in the working environment they have turned daily life into the equivalent of a gathering of Quakers.
There can be no doubt, surely, that a percentage of these claims that are coming out of the woodwork are malicious, false allegations made solely in the hope of achieving some compo and/or a few seconds of fame? In any event the vast majority of them will be utterly impossible to prove.
Working environments everywhere were very different many years ago. Touching, fondling and much more were everyday events. Here's a few examples: blokes in a hot environment wearing nothing more than their overalls lying under printing machines while maintaining them and having their bollocks squeezed by the women workers. (Apparently they thought it funny when the engineer, in shock banged his head on a lump of metal); a secretary stuffing her hand down my trouser pocket to fondle my cock; another who lifted her top up and asked if I liked her bra and to guess her cup size (I got it right BTW); a female member of staff in a very short skirt, sent home for not wearing knickers; an infamous gang-bang at the company Sports Club. (When the story got back to the woman's boss he asked her if she wanted to make a complaint. She told him to mind his own fucking business: she'd instigated it); a girl that didn't get a bonus and shouted across the office at her boss "so the blow job wasn't any good then?"
Sure I have been deliberately one-sided here but you'll notice a theme. None of these instances involved men using their position/power to abuse young girls. This is not a one-way street.
Finally, a story I have told before. A few years after I packed up work - I guess I was around 57 years old at the time, a girl in her teens squeezed my bum and said "nice arse" as she walked by while I was waiting for my train at Stratford Station. At the time, although she was obviously more than a little drunk, I just felt a little chuffed. I realise now of course that I should have hunted down a police officer and made a complaint about a sexual assault.
A politician touching someone's knee - really? Is that the best they can come up with? It's all a little bit like the Loudun Possessions isn't it? When is Fallon getting burned at the stake? Will Corbyn, (some years after inviting his mates round to view a naked Diane Abbott in his bed) ask conference to change his job title to "Lord Protector"?
Am I glad I don't have to go to work anymore. It must be a puritanical nightmare! These days someone would probably complain about you if you complimented their frock or their new hairstyle.
Your examples aren't of women abusing their power or status either.
There has always been bullying and vindictive behaviour in the workplace - I don't really understand why people are so keen not to change things for the better.
If adults consent then no problem but if someone abuses their power then I don't really see why this should be tolerated. You shouldn't be able to bully someone into doing something or being vindictive if someone spurns your advances.
First, a flashback. Remember the media banging on every day about dangerous dogs? We even ended up with an ill-thought out and badly drafted piece of legislation. Have dangerous dogs gone away now? No, of course not, it's just that nobody in the media can be arsed to report dog attacks much anymore - unless they are really serious. Anyway, the latest exposés are beginning to border upon mass hysteria.
We now have a rabid witch hunt of ancient incidents of people not covering themselves in glory. Things have not just moved on in the working environment they have turned daily life into the equivalent of a gathering of Quakers.
There can be no doubt, surely, that a percentage of these claims that are coming out of the woodwork are malicious, false allegations made solely in the hope of achieving some compo and/or a few seconds of fame? In any event the vast majority of them will be utterly impossible to prove.
Working environments everywhere were very different many years ago. Touching, fondling and much more were everyday events. Here's a few examples: blokes in a hot environment wearing nothing more than their overalls lying under printing machines while maintaining them and having their bollocks squeezed by the women workers. (Apparently they thought it funny when the engineer, in shock banged his head on a lump of metal); a secretary stuffing her hand down my trouser pocket to fondle my cock; another who lifted her top up and asked if I liked her bra and to guess her cup size (I got it right BTW); a female member of staff in a very short skirt, sent home for not wearing knickers; an infamous gang-bang at the company Sports Club. (When the story got back to the woman's boss he asked her if she wanted to make a complaint. She told him to mind his own fucking business: she'd instigated it); a girl that didn't get a bonus and shouted across the office at her boss "so the blow job wasn't any good then?"
Sure I have been deliberately one-sided here but you'll notice a theme. None of these instances involved men using their position/power to abuse young girls. This is not a one-way street.
Finally, a story I have told before. A few years after I packed up work - I guess I was around 57 years old at the time, a girl in her teens squeezed my bum and said "nice arse" as she walked by while I was waiting for my train at Stratford Station. At the time, although she was obviously more than a little drunk, I just felt a little chuffed. I realise now of course that I should have hunted down a police officer and made a complaint about a sexual assault.
A politician touching someone's knee - really? Is that the best they can come up with? It's all a little bit like the Loudun Possessions isn't it? When is Fallon getting burned at the stake? Will Corbyn, (some years after inviting his mates round to view a naked Diane Abbott in his bed) ask conference to change his job title to "Lord Protector"?
Am I glad I don't have to go to work anymore. It must be a puritanical nightmare! These days someone would probably complain about you if you complimented their frock or their new hairstyle.
Your examples aren't of women abusing their power or status either.
Precisely.
Not sure I understand the inclusion of them in a discussion about the behaviour of politicians then?
There's been some sort of spreadsheet been released within Westminster that has names of MP's and the women they've reportedly been inappropriate with. My ex missus is on it and she's had to come out on twitter to deny her boss was anything other than completely professional. It's all very sad.
That’s the spreadsheet I got sent by my mate - picture of it I mean
Won’t be long until it’s doing the rounds on Twitter I guess
I was sent it yesterday on What's App, who is supposed to have compiled it? The Tory whips, or journalists?
Horrible to think people are having their names falsely associated with this on a completely non attributable document, it really is the ugly side of social media.
There's been some sort of spreadsheet been released within Westminster that has names of MP's and the women they've reportedly been inappropriate with. My ex missus is on it and she's had to come out on twitter to deny her boss was anything other than completely professional. It's all very sad.
That’s the spreadsheet I got sent by my mate - picture of it I mean
Won’t be long until it’s doing the rounds on Twitter I guess
I was sent it yesterday on What's App, who is supposed to have compiled it? The Tory whips, or journalists?
Horrible to think people are having their names falsely associated with this on a completely non attributable document, it really is the ugly side of social media.
The spreadsheet also contains names like Amber Rudd, who had a completely consensual relationship with another unmarried MP. All this does is take away from genunie victims whilst trying to smear those who have genuinely done nothing wrong.
There's been some sort of spreadsheet been released within Westminster that has names of MP's and the women they've reportedly been inappropriate with. My ex missus is on it and she's had to come out on twitter to deny her boss was anything other than completely professional. It's all very sad.
That’s the spreadsheet I got sent by my mate - picture of it I mean
Won’t be long until it’s doing the rounds on Twitter I guess
I was sent it yesterday on What's App, who is supposed to have compiled it? The Tory whips, or journalists?
Horrible to think people are having their names falsely associated with this on a completely non attributable document, it really is the ugly side of social media.
I know - it looks like it's been written by someone in the tory party as a review into the people on the list
Can we just maintain some balance here. Social media will always have the tendency to grovel in the gutter of human failings.
I can only apply one simple rule in these situations - Unless and until I have walked in their shoes.
I am long since removed from any involvement in such issues as a one time Staff Association Representative who was required to support staff members on both sides of the "aisle" back in the 1980's.
There is no "standard" here beyond the law.
We need to move past what may have once passed as common practice or been part of growing up.
Touching anybody "inappropriately" without consent can be construed as assault. If you are the victim of such contact it is a matter of personal values as to whether you choose to pursue it or not. What you do not get to do is impose your values on others
The element of "influence" or "power" which comes with any seniority in such circumstances positions any inappropriate behaviour as harassment and abuse.
In the workplace every employer has a duty of care to its employees.
In my situation there was no doubt the bank took the situation very seriously but fought tooth and nail to keep any incidents out of the public domain. It also took years of negotiating to keep the incidents from being recorded on the victims personnel files.
The numbers were hardly prolific. In a decade across circa 30 offices I was asked to deal with no more than 7 or 8 incidents a year in my region, some could be resolved by a judicious phone call or two.
There is no doubt however the experience, no matter your gender, is very difficult for all parties where people's careers are on the line.
Nor can there be any doubt for some of the victims the whole process was traumatic and visibly shook them to the core undermining their confidence and challenging their own values and behaviour.
To my knowledge in my workplaces over 29yrs there were just 2 incidents. To many they would be seen as minor but to the victims they were not.
One where a manager, completely out of the blue, chose to position himself on a narrow stairway to the staff rest room 3 or 4 times a day to coincide with one of the young female secretaries going for a break, so she would have to squeeze past him and he could "accidentally" touch her.
It had been going on for a month before she found the "confidence" to report the issue. It had reached the point it was either that or she would have to leave the job. She needed the job. Why should anyone have to face being groped 3 times a day just to pay the bills?
The manager just thought it was a bit of fun. The guy had two teenage daughters of his own.
He was demoted and transferred. He was lucky. He could have been prosecuted for assault but the victim out of consideration for her (and his) family and her employers chose not to pursue it further.
The second was not even reported to me. On my daily walkabout I noticed one young woman in tears at her desk. When I asked other senior staff after her well being it transpired her supervisor had been seen speaking extremely aggressively to her.
It was a surprise. She was very good at her job. A brief interview revealed the altercation arose because she had refused his repeated almost daily advances and had refused to go out with him.
No overt physical contact but he had abused his position of authority. He apologized profusely. I recorded a formal caution on his personnel file in terms of his leadership skills, sent him on an equal opportunities course, and transferred him out of the office.
In the scheme of things the scale of the offences seem relatively minor but to the victims they were not. The behaviour impacted their lives daily.
To those who have suffered and moved on I respect your approach. We all, unless we were very lucky, will have faced some challenges "growing up" but that does not mean others should suffer in silence, particularly where there is evidence of systemic behaviour.
In the case of the wandering hands of Mr Fallon we do not know how frequently and where they have travelled.
As the senior executive in charge of the men and women serving in the nations armed forces if he has abused his position of authority at any point he has no alternative but to stand down.
In an industry rigorously governed by the seniority of position he has/had a duty of care to maintain the highest standards of behaviour.
There's been some sort of spreadsheet been released within Westminster that has names of MP's and the women they've reportedly been inappropriate with. My ex missus is on it and she's had to come out on twitter to deny her boss was anything other than completely professional. It's all very sad.
That’s the spreadsheet I got sent by my mate - picture of it I mean
Won’t be long until it’s doing the rounds on Twitter I guess
I was sent it yesterday on What's App, who is supposed to have compiled it? The Tory whips, or journalists?
Horrible to think people are having their names falsely associated with this on a completely non attributable document, it really is the ugly side of social media.
I know - it looks like it's been written by someone in the tory party as a review into the people on the list
There's been some sort of spreadsheet been released within Westminster that has names of MP's and the women they've reportedly been inappropriate with. My ex missus is on it and she's had to come out on twitter to deny her boss was anything other than completely professional. It's all very sad.
Wow, unbelievable that Gal
Yet believable mate. Don't put anything past some politicians/media to use a situation as bad as this to push their own agenda and will detract from real victims.
First, a flashback. Remember the media banging on every day about dangerous dogs? We even ended up with an ill-thought out and badly drafted piece of legislation. Have dangerous dogs gone away now? No, of course not, it's just that nobody in the media can be arsed to report dog attacks much anymore - unless they are really serious. Anyway, the latest exposés are beginning to border upon mass hysteria.
We now have a rabid witch hunt of ancient incidents of people not covering themselves in glory. Things have not just moved on in the working environment they have turned daily life into the equivalent of a gathering of Quakers.
There can be no doubt, surely, that a percentage of these claims that are coming out of the woodwork are malicious, false allegations made solely in the hope of achieving some compo and/or a few seconds of fame? In any event the vast majority of them will be utterly impossible to prove.
Working environments everywhere were very different many years ago. Touching, fondling and much more were everyday events. Here's a few examples: blokes in a hot environment wearing nothing more than their overalls lying under printing machines while maintaining them and having their bollocks squeezed by the women workers. (Apparently they thought it funny when the engineer, in shock banged his head on a lump of metal); a secretary stuffing her hand down my trouser pocket to fondle my cock; another who lifted her top up and asked if I liked her bra and to guess her cup size (I got it right BTW); a female member of staff in a very short skirt, sent home for not wearing knickers; an infamous gang-bang at the company Sports Club. (When the story got back to the woman's boss he asked her if she wanted to make a complaint. She told him to mind his own fucking business: she'd instigated it); a girl that didn't get a bonus and shouted across the office at her boss "so the blow job wasn't any good then?"
Sure I have been deliberately one-sided here but you'll notice a theme. None of these instances involved men using their position/power to abuse young girls. This is not a one-way street.
Finally, a story I have told before. A few years after I packed up work - I guess I was around 57 years old at the time, a girl in her teens squeezed my bum and said "nice arse" as she walked by while I was waiting for my train at Stratford Station. At the time, although she was obviously more than a little drunk, I just felt a little chuffed. I realise now of course that I should have hunted down a police officer and made a complaint about a sexual assault.
A politician touching someone's knee - really? Is that the best they can come up with? It's all a little bit like the Loudun Possessions isn't it? When is Fallon getting burned at the stake? Will Corbyn, (some years after inviting his mates round to view a naked Diane Abbott in his bed) ask conference to change his job title to "Lord Protector"?
Am I glad I don't have to go to work anymore. It must be a puritanical nightmare! These days someone would probably complain about you if you complimented their frock or their new hairstyle.
My Mrs has just told me that when she was in jersey the other week, one of the workers she was training came on to her on a night out. She told him do that again and you will have a size 6 stiletto in your lunchbox. Obviously he heeded her warning. Nothing else was said.
My Mrs has just told me that when she was in jersey the other week, one of the workers she was training came on to her on a night out. She told him do that again and you will have a size 6 stiletto in your lunchbox. Obviously he heeded her warning. Nothing else was said.
What's the relevance? It seems your wife was lucky, the bloke accepted her rejection and backed off, plenty don't.
It is not that f***ing hard to not touch people without their consent and to take "no" as a definitive answer.
You don't travel on South Eastern then?
technically then I must be assaulted practically every day on the tube. It's got ridiculous when a brush on the knee is considered an assault or inappropriate. In my opinion it's trivialising actual assaults.
It is not that f***ing hard to not touch people without their consent and to take "no" as a definitive answer.
You don't travel on South Eastern then?
technically then I must be assaulted practically every day on the tube. It's got ridiculous when a brush on the knee is considered an assault or inappropriate. In my opinion it's trivialising actual assaults.
Accidental brushes are NEVER characterised as assault. This is a ridiculous strawman
It is not that f***ing hard to not touch people without their consent and to take "no" as a definitive answer.
You don't travel on South Eastern then?
technically then I must be assaulted practically every day on the tube. It's got ridiculous when a brush on the knee is considered an assault or inappropriate. In my opinion it's trivialising actual assaults.
Accidental brushes are NEVER characterised as assault. This is a ridiculous strawman
And trivializes and distracts from actual assaults.
Comments
The spreadsheet is an internal Tory document, disaster for them that it's been leaked. There's some pretty strange allegations on their including that there is a video of one MP with three men urinating on him...
I was, arguably, sexually harassed by a very attractive co-worker for a while. I didn't mind it at all, I quite enjoyed it. But that doesn't mean I should expect anyone else to. Male or female. And in the case of women, there's the inherent issue of them being far more vulnerable. It would have been easy for me to physically stop 'Vicky' from rubbing her boobs on me in the office, but if the roles were reversed, it would have been pretty scary for her to know she couldn't physically stop me.
We know where the lines are. Don't cross them unless you're invited to. At which point the line ceases to exist anyway. This kind of thing is exactly my point. 'Vicky' would have had every right to make a formal complaint if I was doing stuff to her. It's outrageous, to me at least, to belittle anyone for doing so just because your outlook and experiences differ.
Won’t be long until it’s doing the rounds on Twitter I guess
If adults consent then no problem but if someone abuses their power then I don't really see why this should be tolerated. You shouldn't be able to bully someone into doing something or being vindictive if someone spurns your advances.
Why are some so scared of change?
Horrible to think people are having their names falsely associated with this on a completely non attributable document, it really is the ugly side of social media.
I can only apply one simple rule in these situations - Unless and until I have walked in their shoes.
I am long since removed from any involvement in such issues as a one time Staff Association Representative who was required to support staff members on both sides of the "aisle" back in the 1980's.
There is no "standard" here beyond the law.
We need to move past what may have once passed as common practice or been part of growing up.
Touching anybody "inappropriately" without consent can be construed as assault. If you are the victim of such contact it is a matter of personal values as to whether you choose to pursue it or not. What you do not get to do is impose your values on others
The element of "influence" or "power" which comes with any seniority in such circumstances positions any inappropriate behaviour as harassment and abuse.
In the workplace every employer has a duty of care to its employees.
In my situation there was no doubt the bank took the situation very seriously but fought tooth and nail to keep any incidents out of the public domain. It also took years of negotiating to keep the incidents from being recorded on the victims personnel files.
The numbers were hardly prolific. In a decade across circa 30 offices I was asked to deal with no more than 7 or 8 incidents a year in my region, some could be resolved by a judicious phone call or two.
There is no doubt however the experience, no matter your gender, is very difficult for all parties where people's careers are on the line.
Nor can there be any doubt for some of the victims the whole process was traumatic and visibly shook them to the core undermining their confidence and challenging their own values and behaviour.
To my knowledge in my workplaces over 29yrs there were just 2 incidents. To many they would be seen as minor but to the victims they were not.
One where a manager, completely out of the blue, chose to position himself on a narrow stairway to the staff rest room 3 or 4 times a day to coincide with one of the young female secretaries going for a break, so she would have to squeeze past him and he could "accidentally" touch her.
It had been going on for a month before she found the "confidence" to report the issue. It had reached the point it was either that or she would have to leave the job. She needed the job. Why should anyone have to face being groped 3 times a day just to pay the bills?
The manager just thought it was a bit of fun. The guy had two teenage daughters of his own.
He was demoted and transferred. He was lucky. He could have been prosecuted for assault but the victim out of consideration for her (and his) family and her employers chose not to pursue it further.
The second was not even reported to me. On my daily walkabout I noticed one young woman in tears at her desk. When I asked other senior staff after her well being it transpired her supervisor had been seen speaking extremely aggressively to her.
It was a surprise. She was very good at her job. A brief interview revealed the altercation arose because she had refused his repeated almost daily advances and had refused to go out with him.
No overt physical contact but he had abused his position of authority. He apologized profusely. I recorded a formal caution on his personnel file in terms of his leadership skills, sent him on an equal opportunities course, and transferred him out of the office.
In the scheme of things the scale of the offences seem relatively minor but to the victims they were not. The behaviour impacted their lives daily.
To those who have suffered and moved on I respect your approach. We all, unless we were very lucky, will have faced some challenges "growing up" but that does not mean others should suffer in silence, particularly where there is evidence of systemic behaviour.
In the case of the wandering hands of Mr Fallon we do not know how frequently and where they have travelled.
As the senior executive in charge of the men and women serving in the nations armed forces if he has abused his position of authority at any point he has no alternative but to stand down.
In an industry rigorously governed by the seniority of position he has/had a duty of care to maintain the highest standards of behaviour.
Insanity.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/my-pain-is-everyday-after-weinsteins-fall-trump-accusers-wonder-why-not-him/2017/10/21/bce67720-b585-11e7-be94-fabb0f1e9ffb_story.html?utm_term=.b5893482daf5
He is currently being sued by one woman. The White House had called all of these women liars.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/my-pain-is-everyday-after-weinsteins-fall-trump-accusers-wonder-why-not-him/2017/10/21/bce67720-b585-11e7-be94-fabb0f1e9ffb_story.html?utm_term=.b5893482daf5