I think this is a very clear and succinct demonstration of the urgent need for a Peoples Vote.
I am not a fan of Andrew Bridgen. I think he's a nasty piece of work. But he talks with absolute clarity derived from conviction. He doesn't care that what he is saying is nonsense. What's more important to him is if some people on the Leave side are convinced, emboldened and engaged by the disdainful way in which he answers unanswerable questions.
The technique is as simple as it is clever. When the question is easy, answer it. When it's difficult, answer it by blaming the EU. And when the question is impossible, find someone to blame for the mess.
All in all, Andrew Bridgen - and many like him - never fails to leave the audience slightly less well-informed than they were when he started talking. He's like a black hole for facts.
We are no closer either to understanding his options with regards to the Irish border or to the total costs of his version of Brexit than we were before listening to that embarrassing drivel. So, when the deal is agreed by the EU (or rejected by the Government) and when that deal (or no deal) is thrown out by Parliament, we *have* to go back to the public. And, at that time, I hope Andrew Bridgen is ubiquitous on British media. Because the more people listen to him and carefully consider his words, the worse the case will be for Brexit.
Jesus Christ! it is becoming clearer by the day that the Brexiteer politicians are as dumb and moronic as the Brexit voters!
And some wonder why there is no balance to these debates. Going to ignore this comment too @cabbles ? I'm sorry but this sort of keyboard warrior shit really pushes my buttons.
Why can't you just accept that some people have a view that's not the same as your's? You might then help the world to be a better place.
He ignores every deliberately trolling post by Chippy so why shouldn't he ignore my posts?
Jesus Christ! it is becoming clearer by the day that the Brexiteer politicians are as dumb and moronic as the Brexit voters!
And some wonder why there is no balance to these debates. Going to ignore this comment too @cabbles ? I'm sorry but this sort of keyboard warrior shit really pushes my buttons.
Why can't you just accept that some people have a view that's not the same as your's? You might then help the world to be a better place.
He ignores every deliberately trolling post by Chippy so why shouldn't he ignore my posts?
Because chippy is having a laugh and you are just spiteful
Very interesting figures here, and it doesn't even take into account Leave voters switching to Remain. In January next year the demographics will have changed sufficiently for a clear majority to be in favour of remaining, just two months before the UK leave, probably in a shambolic way. Seems only fair to give the people a say who will actually be affected by Brexit.
Jesus Christ! it is becoming clearer by the day that the Brexiteer politicians are as dumb and moronic as the Brexit voters!
And some wonder why there is no balance to these debates. Going to ignore this comment too @cabbles ? I'm sorry but this sort of keyboard warrior shit really pushes my buttons.
Why can't you just accept that some people have a view that's not the same as your's? You might then help the world to be a better place.
He ignores every deliberately trolling post by Chippy so why shouldn't he ignore my posts?
Because chippy is having a laugh and you are just spiteful
Jesus Christ! it is becoming clearer by the day that the Brexiteer politicians are as dumb and moronic as the Brexit voters!
And some wonder why there is no balance to these debates. Going to ignore this comment too @cabbles ? I'm sorry but this sort of keyboard warrior shit really pushes my buttons.
Why can't you just accept that some people have a view that's not the same as your's? You might then help the world to be a better place.
I think the critical comments about brexit politicians and voters are born out of frustration that brexit politicians and voters have no answers to the practicalities of brexit. The trouble is, every time a brexit voter is called out for being a moron it gives them another excuse to duck the fundamental issues by stalking off in a huff. I would prefer myself to not give brexit voters that easy out, but rather to press them to explain how it is all going to work practically. Of course the now traditional answer on here is that they are leaving the details to the politicians, and here is the rock/hard place interface. No politician has a clue. Which brings up the secondary issue that brexit voters insist they knew what they were voting for (and how dare we suggest otherwise!), which leads to yet another rock/hard place interface when they have no answers, and bounce it back to the politicians and so on to the very doomsday of time. It would actually represent a step forward if brexit voters admitted they don't know what they're doing, but they voted the way they did because they feel life is sh*t and they hate 'foreigners'. At least then there might be an honest place to start working from. Just as it was easy to vote brexit in some vague expression of dissatisfaction, it is also easy for them to duck out if brexit voters feel they are being insulted. Facing up to the practicalities is what I believe to be brexiteers biggest fear.
Jesus Christ! it is becoming clearer by the day that the Brexiteer politicians are as dumb and moronic as the Brexit voters!
And some wonder why there is no balance to these debates. Going to ignore this comment too @cabbles ? I'm sorry but this sort of keyboard warrior shit really pushes my buttons.
Why can't you just accept that some people have a view that's not the same as your's? You might then help the world to be a better place.
He ignores every deliberately trolling post by Chippy so why shouldn't he ignore my posts?
Because chippy is having a laugh and you are just spiteful
Of course he is! How stupid of me.
Look at your profile mate you have over 130 flags. You are the most aggressive poster on Charlton life. How the fuck you are still allowed to post on here is beyond my compression. If I decide to leave this forum it will because people like you are allowed to keep talking shit and for some reason the mods allow you to carry on. Good night.
It isn't a matter of intelligence - that is unfair - more that most euro sceptics are euro sceptic by instinct rather than through analysis. Many are born euro sceptic.
Have to disagree with you there. Some of what this guy was saying was staggeringly stupid. He even suggested that Ireland leave the EU as a solution to the border issue. The idea that there are enough morons in Ireland to allow that to happen is fanciful.
Not saying there aren't some stupid ones - just not sure the best approach is to call people out for being stipid.
Not calling out stupidity is the start of any problem.
Jesus Christ! it is becoming clearer by the day that the Brexiteer politicians are as dumb and moronic as the Brexit voters!
And some wonder why there is no balance to these debates. Going to ignore this comment too @cabbles ? I'm sorry but this sort of keyboard warrior shit really pushes my buttons.
Why can't you just accept that some people have a view that's not the same as your's? You might then help the world to be a better place.
He ignores every deliberately trolling post by Chippy so why shouldn't he ignore my posts?
Because chippy is having a laugh and you are just spiteful
Jesus Christ! it is becoming clearer by the day that the Brexiteer politicians are as dumb and moronic as the Brexit voters!
And some wonder why there is no balance to these debates. Going to ignore this comment too @cabbles ? I'm sorry but this sort of keyboard warrior shit really pushes my buttons.
Why can't you just accept that some people have a view that's not the same as your's? You might then help the world to be a better place.
He ignores every deliberately trolling post by Chippy so why shouldn't he ignore my posts?
Because chippy is having a laugh and you are just spiteful
Of course he is! How stupid of me.
Look at your profile mate you have over 130 flags. You are the most aggressive poster on Charlton life. How the fuck you are still allowed to post on here is beyond my compression. If I decide to leave this forum it will because people like you are allowed to keep talking shit and for some reason the mods allow you to carry on. Good night.
I would say only about 10 of those flags are warranted. The rest are mostly from snowflake serial flagging Brexit posters like yourself. Apart from about 4 or 5 times I have never received any communication from any moderator about any of my flagged posts. They just ignore them as I do.
It isn't a matter of intelligence - that is unfair - more that most euro sceptics are euro sceptic by instinct rather than through analysis. Many are born euro sceptic.
Have to disagree with you there. Some of what this guy was saying was staggeringly stupid. He even suggested that Ireland leave the EU as a solution to the border issue. The idea that there are enough morons in Ireland to allow that to happen is fanciful.
Not saying there aren't some stupid ones - just not sure the best approach is to call people out for being stipid.
Not calling out stupidity is the start of any problem.
Jesus Christ! it is becoming clearer by the day that the Brexiteer politicians are as dumb and moronic as the Brexit voters!
And some wonder why there is no balance to these debates. Going to ignore this comment too @cabbles ? I'm sorry but this sort of keyboard warrior shit really pushes my buttons.
Why can't you just accept that some people have a view that's not the same as your's? You might then help the world to be a better place.
He ignores every deliberately trolling post by Chippy so why shouldn't he ignore my posts?
Because chippy is having a laugh and you are just spiteful
Of course he is! How stupid of me.
Look at your profile mate you have over 130 flags. You are the most aggressive poster on Charlton life. How the fuck you are still allowed to post on here is beyond my compression. If I decide to leave this forum it will because people like you are allowed to keep talking shit and for some reason the mods allow you to carry on. Good night.
I would say only about 10 of those flags are warranted. The rest are mostly from snowflake serial flagging Brexit posters like yourself. Apart from about 4 or 5 times I have never received any communication from any moderator about any of my flagged posts. They just ignore them as I do.
Really. I think this is the first time I have ever flagged you.
Very interesting figures here, and it doesn't even take into account Leave voters switching to Remain. In January next year the demographics will have changed sufficiently for a clear majority to be in favour of remaining, just two months before the UK leave, probably in a shambolic way. Seems only fair to give the people a say who will actually be affected by Brexit.
It isn't a matter of intelligence - that is unfair - more that most euro sceptics are euro sceptic by instinct rather than through analysis. Many are born euro sceptic.
Have to disagree with you there. Some of what this guy was saying was staggeringly stupid. He even suggested that Ireland leave the EU as a solution to the border issue. The idea that there are enough morons in Ireland to allow that to happen is fanciful.
Not saying there aren't some stupid ones - just not sure the best approach is to call people out for being stipid.
Not calling out stupidity is the start of any problem.
Very interesting figures here, and it doesn't even take into account Leave voters switching to Remain. In January next year the demographics will have changed sufficiently for a clear majority to be in favour of remaining, just two months before the UK leave, probably in a shambolic way. Seems only fair to give the people a say who will actually be affected by Brexit.
I was referencing this phenomenon about 18 months ago. I received all sorts of insults and flags at the time.
The age divide when it comes to Brexit is certainly an uncomfortable truth for Leave voters, and a sensitive issue obviously. As a snapshot of feelings about the EU and general frustration with various things going on in society it clearly showed a disillusionment with the status quo but increasingly it looks now like a lashing out at something which the younger generation actually value.
As a remainer, I don't like it when Brexit supporters are called stupid. I think it is unnecessarily provocative, insulting, counterproductive and, in the majority of cases, simply not true. That said, I know that I have been prone to go a little too far in my own arguments. The trouble for me is that everything I know or believe about Brexit is so unredeemingly bad, I really struggle to see how a reasonable person would support it. Since the referendum we've seen the supposed benefits refuted, whilst it seems that practically everyday new problems and difficulties surface which make Brexit seem all the more undesirable. I can't help but think that the only reason anyone would have for still supporting Brexit is the sheer painfulness of confronting the fact that it's not a good good choice.
With all that in mind, I'd like to throw down two challenges:
@Red_in_SE8, my challenge to you is to say exactly what it is that you don't like about Brexit without insulting those that take a different view.
@Brexiteers, my challenge to you is to ignore previous insults and focus on the benefits; rather than engaging in squabbles with Red, tell us why you think Brexit is still worthy of your support.
Jesus Christ! it is becoming clearer by the day that the Brexiteer politicians are as dumb and moronic as the Brexit voters!
Red, please refrain from this sort of comment. Not helpful and too generalising and unfair to the people that voted Brexit. Everyone has their reasons and comments such as this won’t help encourage a balanced debate. The likes of Stonemuse, Southbank, Blackpool etc still come on here and engage in respectful debate and I would like them to feel they can do so without being labelled moronic.
Jesus Christ! it is becoming clearer by the day that the Brexiteer politicians are as dumb and moronic as the Brexit voters!
Red, please refrain from this sort of comment. Not helpful and too generalising and unfair to the people that voted Brexit. Everyone has their reasons and comments such as this won’t help encourage a balanced debate. The likes of Stonemuse, Southbank, Blackpool etc still come on here and engage in respectful debate and I would like them to feel they can do so without being labelled moronic.
Ok. I will try. I will also await with keen interest to your response to the next deliberately trolling facetious Chippy post.
Maybe it is down to faith. I can see the best Brexit scenario is that we are all a bit worse off and the worst is that we are very worse off. When I see respected buisnessmen like Dyson telling us Brexit is a good thing it makes me think - even though he and the Wetherspoons bloke are in a clearly in a minority. You have to respect their positions. But there are so many imponderables and risks, it seems to me setting up a football team with 2 at the back. Too risky to make sense even though it could work if the other team is very defensive! I can see the evidence to suggest it won't work in our interests but where it will work it is all about faith.
Faith that we can negotiate complex trade deals when being in the EU doesn;t hinder our ability to do that now with the right product. Faith that we will be better off when it is our economy that is demanding EU migrants and there are clear financial benefits.
I use the word faith because it is like a religion for the anti Europe brigade from both left and right. I was reading about Tony Benn on holiday and he was very anti-europe because of his views on sovreignty and his experiences - he lost his brother in the war. He felt the EU was undemocratic and even if there were benefits, he wasn't comfortable - he felt it was better to have a bad government you could get rid off than a good one you can't in the long run. More right leaners don't like the fact the EU can tell us what to do and that is more important to them than economic benefits.
I have been uncomfortable when the German influenced EU has preached Austerity and imposed it on other states. I can see the arguments from a left leaning perspective. But I think we are not in a dictatorship and the EU can be changed for the better and leaving is going to cause us significant economic pain. I think the situation demands pragmatism above idealism. And if you look at it in economic terms it sort of explains why people feel so strongly about things. It is sort of head versus heart.
No doubt some Brexit politician with the usual shit for brains will pop up later and claim it is just more scaremongering!
No, blackmail actually
Or perhaps one of the most influential car makers on the planet setting out to protect the interests of its shareholders in the face of being threatened by perhaps the biggest shooting ones own feet fest the world of business has ever seen. If the one month closure also has the effect of one across the bows of this lunatic project then I’m sure we all see that as an added benefit.
As I said,blackmail...That you approve of apparently. Great to be a Remainer welcoming workers being laid off.
Jesus Christ! it is becoming clearer by the day that the Brexiteer politicians are as dumb and moronic as the Brexit voters!
Red, please refrain from this sort of comment. Not helpful and too generalising and unfair to the people that voted Brexit. Everyone has their reasons and comments such as this won’t help encourage a balanced debate. The likes of Stonemuse, Southbank, Blackpool etc still come on here and engage in respectful debate and I would like them to feel they can do so without being labelled moronic.
The debate ended long ago. There is no credibility in the Brexit argument on any level or metric you care to use. The leave vote was built on a tissue of lies, mistruths and fear and I don’t blame everyone that voted leave for falling for it. What I can’t understand or let go of is the ridiculousness of those who were conned not now taking on board the overwhelming weight of evidence and seeing with their own eyes exactly how the Brexit negotiations are going and yet persist with the view that regardless of how bad economically Brexit will be for this Country it’s what they voted for.
Even the pin up boy of Brexit Nigel Farage is back tracking on what he said. Even he says now that Brexit will not be economically good for the country. The people have spoken but they surely must be allowed to speak again but this time with the full knowledge of what Brexit actually means.
Jesus Christ! it is becoming clearer by the day that the Brexiteer politicians are as dumb and moronic as the Brexit voters!
And some wonder why there is no balance to these debates. Going to ignore this comment too @cabbles ? I'm sorry but this sort of keyboard warrior shit really pushes my buttons.
Why can't you just accept that some people have a view that's not the same as your's? You might then help the world to be a better place.
Top post sadly he judges everyone else by his own standards.
Jesus Christ! it is becoming clearer by the day that the Brexiteer politicians are as dumb and moronic as the Brexit voters!
And some wonder why there is no balance to these debates. Going to ignore this comment too @cabbles ? I'm sorry but this sort of keyboard warrior shit really pushes my buttons.
Why can't you just accept that some people have a view that's not the same as your's? You might then help the world to be a better place.
He ignores every deliberately trolling post by Chippy so why shouldn't he ignore my posts?
Again judging me by your own standard...troll.... tell me a link I have posted except eu facts that was mailed to me....
Jesus Christ! it is becoming clearer by the day that the Brexiteer politicians are as dumb and moronic as the Brexit voters!
And some wonder why there is no balance to these debates. Going to ignore this comment too @cabbles ? I'm sorry but this sort of keyboard warrior shit really pushes my buttons.
Why can't you just accept that some people have a view that's not the same as your's? You might then help the world to be a better place.
He ignores every deliberately trolling post by Chippy so why shouldn't he ignore my posts?
Because chippy is having a laugh and you are just spiteful
Comments
I am not a fan of Andrew Bridgen. I think he's a nasty piece of work. But he talks with absolute clarity derived from conviction. He doesn't care that what he is saying is nonsense. What's more important to him is if some people on the Leave side are convinced, emboldened and engaged by the disdainful way in which he answers unanswerable questions.
The technique is as simple as it is clever. When the question is easy, answer it. When it's difficult, answer it by blaming the EU. And when the question is impossible, find someone to blame for the mess.
All in all, Andrew Bridgen - and many like him - never fails to leave the audience slightly less well-informed than they were when he started talking. He's like a black hole for facts.
We are no closer either to understanding his options with regards to the Irish border or to the total costs of his version of Brexit than we were before listening to that embarrassing drivel. So, when the deal is agreed by the EU (or rejected by the Government) and when that deal (or no deal) is thrown out by Parliament, we *have* to go back to the public. And, at that time, I hope Andrew Bridgen is ubiquitous on British media. Because the more people listen to him and carefully consider his words, the worse the case will be for Brexit.
Carry on Andrew.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/final-say-remain-leave-second-referendum-brexit-no-deal-crossover-day-a8541576.html
The trouble is, every time a brexit voter is called out for being a moron it gives them another excuse to duck the fundamental issues by stalking off in a huff.
I would prefer myself to not give brexit voters that easy out, but rather to press them to explain how it is all going to work practically.
Of course the now traditional answer on here is that they are leaving the details to the politicians, and here is the rock/hard place interface. No politician has a clue.
Which brings up the secondary issue that brexit voters insist they knew what they were voting for (and how dare we suggest otherwise!), which leads to yet another rock/hard place interface when they have no answers, and bounce it back to the politicians and so on to the very doomsday of time.
It would actually represent a step forward if brexit voters admitted they don't know what they're doing, but they voted the way they did because they feel life is sh*t and they hate 'foreigners'. At least then there might be an honest place to start working from.
Just as it was easy to vote brexit in some vague expression of dissatisfaction, it is also easy for them to duck out if brexit voters feel they are being insulted.
Facing up to the practicalities is what I believe to be brexiteers biggest fear.
You are the most aggressive poster on Charlton life.
How the fuck you are still allowed to post on here is beyond my compression.
If I decide to leave this forum it will because people like you are allowed to keep talking shit and for some reason the mods allow you to carry on.
Good night.
Oh grow up.
I think this is the first time I have ever flagged you.
With all that in mind, I'd like to throw down two challenges:
@Red_in_SE8, my challenge to you is to say exactly what it is that you don't like about Brexit without insulting those that take a different view.
@Brexiteers, my challenge to you is to ignore previous insults and focus on the benefits; rather than engaging in squabbles with Red, tell us why you think Brexit is still worthy of your support.
Faith that we can negotiate complex trade deals when being in the EU doesn;t hinder our ability to do that now with the right product. Faith that we will be better off when it is our economy that is demanding EU migrants and there are clear financial benefits.
I use the word faith because it is like a religion for the anti Europe brigade from both left and right. I was reading about Tony Benn on holiday and he was very anti-europe because of his views on sovreignty and his experiences - he lost his brother in the war. He felt the EU was undemocratic and even if there were benefits, he wasn't comfortable - he felt it was better to have a bad government you could get rid off than a good one you can't in the long run. More right leaners don't like the fact the EU can tell us what to do and that is more important to them than economic benefits.
I have been uncomfortable when the German influenced EU has preached Austerity and imposed it on other states. I can see the arguments from a left leaning perspective. But I think we are not in a dictatorship and the EU can be changed for the better and leaving is going to cause us significant economic pain. I think the situation demands pragmatism above idealism. And if you look at it in economic terms it sort of explains why people feel so strongly about things. It is sort of head versus heart.
Even the pin up boy of Brexit Nigel Farage is back tracking on what he said. Even he says now that Brexit will not be economically good for the country.
The people have spoken but they surely must be allowed to speak again but this time with the full knowledge of what Brexit actually means.