A technological solution? No detail, nothing new, it won't work in practice and it does not address the movement of people. I was looking forward to a possible solution, but however much the ERG say they have it sussed, they haven't.
I've not been able to follow the details of the proposals put forward this morning, but I fear that they continue to make some fairly Herculean assumptions about what would be acceptable to the other side in the negotiations (so that equivalence in terms of standards might be a bit difficult to achieve, as espoused in the ERG plan for the border in Ireland, if the ERG economic plan is to be followed), and I note with interest that the way to avoid having a border in the Irish Sea is to have a border in the Irish Sea (in terms of Biosecurity).
And, I'm not sure that the Northern Ireland Police Federation will be any more convinced by the plans announced today than they were yesterday (where they make clear that there will still be infrastructure and individuals who would be potential targets for dissidents, which requires additional resourcing).
As much of a tosser Mogg is, very disappointed to see people harassing and haranguing his children today. Really poor behaviour and he and his family shouldn't be subjected to that
As much of a tosser Mogg is, very disappointed to see people harassing and haranguing his children today. Really poor behaviour and he and his family shouldn't be subjected to that
That's about the level of politics these days, really scummy and spiteful. Parliament has had to call in the police to investigate the childishly threatening cards sent to Labour MPs on Momentum's shit-list.
So ERG is hanging it’s hat on current and emerging technologies to stop there having to be a hard border between the ROI and NI. They have come to this insane conclusion after months and months of effort into finding a solution that suits everyone. I presume they are not aware that when this idea was first bandied around more than a year ago it was advised that no such technology exists and even if it did it would not be acceptable due to the impossibility of it being adequately policed due to tariffs and the status of “trusted trader” being as plausible as Bojo being a “trusted politician”. A smugglers paradise.
I really wonder how this country has come to the sorry state of having so many low quality politicians interspersed with actual lunatics and chancers.
If the political watchers are to be believed it is when and not if a leadership challenge happens. We could actually end up with Boris Johnson or Jacob Rees-Mogg as Prime Minister.
I think we all agree that there is no solution to the Irish Border problem.......apart from either building a wall along the entire length of it (not practical, very time consumung & obviously not welcomed by either side) or NI joining the ROI and staying in the EU (which again wont happen).
Therefore.....would you all agree that the UK has been stiched up over Europe big time. We effectively can never leave the EU (until there is a united Ireland perhaps) or does anyone really have an answer.
and before @Sethplum goes into his usual diatribe of......."you voted for it so its down to you to sort it"..... You would have thought if this was so blindlinly obvious then The Government, The Civil Service, The EU, The Tiosoch.....in fact even Old Tom Cobly should have stopped David Cameron ordering a Referendum on it.
I know people (sorry, remainers) keep telling me that we all knew this before June 23rd 2016.......but did we really ?? I've said before, I was not swayed at all by Boris & his big red bus & watched virtually all the debates, but I do not recall ANYONE pointing this out - especially not that vociferously - and do not recall the Irish border being brought up once.....even by the DUP.
Yes, you can call me stupid but I when I voted I thought the Government must have at least known that what they were offering was actually achievable in real life. They might as well asked if we want to join Australia or the USA for that matter.
I've not been able to follow the details of the proposals put forward this morning, but I fear that they continue to make some fairly Herculean assumptions about what would be acceptable to the other side in the negotiations (so that equivalence in terms of standards might be a bit difficult to achieve, as espoused in the ERG plan for the border in Ireland, if the ERG economic plan is to be followed), and I note with interest that the way to avoid having a border in the Irish Sea is to have a border in the Irish Sea (in terms of Biosecurity).
And, I'm not sure that the Northern Ireland Police Federation will be any more convinced by the plans announced today than they were yesterday (where they make clear that there will still be infrastructure and individuals who would be potential targets for dissidents, which requires additional resourcing).
This is my favourite line;
“‘No deal’ Brexit could leave UK holidaymakers treated like those outside EU”, the paper reports in horror.
Agree with @golfaddick - seeing it from outside the country and always having people ask me why the UK are putting themselves through this without even planning properly is incredibly hard to understand.
The obsession with Europe at the expense of properly discussing the NHS, the education system or homelessness for example seems such a waste of public and governmental time, money and energy and has really only served as a way for some politicians to posture and self-promote for their own interests as well as completely dividing the country. What other things could have been done instead in the last few years instead of all the focus on this we'll never know.
I think we all agree that there is no solution to the Irish Border problem.......apart from either building a wall along the entire length of it (not practical, very time consumung & obviously not welcomed by either side) or NI joining the ROI and staying in the EU (which again wont happen).
Therefore.....would you all agree that the UK has been stiched up over Europe big time. We effectively can never leave the EU (until there is a united Ireland perhaps) or does anyone really have an answer.
and before @Sethplum goes into his usual diatribe of......."you voted for it so its down to you to sort it"..... You would have thought if this was so blindlinly obvious then The Government, The Civil Service, The EU, The Tiosoch.....in fact even Old Tom Cobly should have stopped David Cameron ordering a Referendum on it.
I know people (sorry, remainers) keep telling me that we all knew this before June 23rd 2016.......but did we really ?? I've said before, I was not swayed at all by Boris & his big red bus & watched virtually all the debates, but I do not recall ANYONE pointing this out - especially not that vociferously - and do not recall the Irish border being brought up once.....even by the DUP.
Yes, you can call me stupid but I when I voted I thought the Government must have at least known that what they were offering was actually achievable in real life. They might as well asked if we want to join Australia or the USA for that matter.
I certainly remember the Irish border being brought up frequently, but not in any depth and usually treated with distain. The most common hand wave before the vote was to say there was a common travel area since 1923 so it wasn't an issue, closely followed by a blithe assertion that there would have to be a 'work around'. The disregard for Ireland also had a racist 'they're just a bunch of Micks' kind of tinge. Maybe it was only a serious concern for folk of my generation who clearly remember the troubles. The thing is that the border crystallises so much about brexit, the UK over here, the EU over there, and something in between, and what happens to that in between. If brexit voters didn't consider the issue, then indeed they didn't know what they were voting for, but brexit voters insist they did.
I think we all agree that there is no solution to the Irish Border problem.......apart from either building a wall along the entire length of it (not practical, very time consumung & obviously not welcomed by either side) or NI joining the ROI and staying in the EU (which again wont happen).
Therefore.....would you all agree that the UK has been stiched up over Europe big time. We effectively can never leave the EU (until there is a united Ireland perhaps) or does anyone really have an answer.
and before @Sethplum goes into his usual diatribe of......."you voted for it so its down to you to sort it"..... You would have thought if this was so blindlinly obvious then The Government, The Civil Service, The EU, The Tiosoch.....in fact even Old Tom Cobly should have stopped David Cameron ordering a Referendum on it.
I know people (sorry, remainers) keep telling me that we all knew this before June 23rd 2016.......but did we really ?? I've said before, I was not swayed at all by Boris & his big red bus & watched virtually all the debates, but I do not recall ANYONE pointing this out - especially not that vociferously - and do not recall the Irish border being brought up once.....even by the DUP.
Yes, you can call me stupid but I when I voted I thought the Government must have at least known that what they were offering was actually achievable in real life. They might as well asked if we want to join Australia or the USA for that matter.
For what it's worth, John Major brought up the problem of the Irish border before the referendum, but insofar as the media in England noticed, he was shouted down as part of Project Fear.
As for the DUP, I would not want to assume either that they were not affected by the same malaise as is alleged for Boris Johnson (Newton Emerson argues that they never believed Leave would win the Referendum, so that part of the failure to prepare was due to an expectation of "glorious" failure), nor that the DUP are desperately exercised by the need to preserve the Good Friday Agreement or avoid the reintroduction of border checks.
And, in fairness, it seems as if the DUP, if they thought about it at all, assumed that the Irish Government and EU would accomodate any and all ideas put forward by HMG (which is odd, because the last thing you'd ever accuse their particular strand of Unionism of is any sort of notion of entitled exceptionalism).
Fundamentally, a lot of Brexiteers seem to find it difficult to avoid personalising the Irish border, with the idea that the change of Taoiseach makes a difference to the Irish Government's efforts to protect its national interest. I seriously doubt if Enda Kenny, held up as some sort of paragon of Taoiseach-hood by the likes of Jacob Rees Mogg, would be pursuing a policy that differed in any way from that of Leo Varadkar's Government today.
As a minor aside, neither the Civil Service, nor the Irish Government nor the EU could have prevented David Cameron exercising the UK Government's right to act (with the support of a sovereign Parliament), no matter how stupid they believed the motivation, and vote to have the EU Referendum.
The problem that the UK Government faces is that the red lines that the Prime Minister set out, prior to negotiations, and continues to state are set in stone, are utterly incompatible with each other and contradictory when it comes to the Irish border.
There is no logical way that all of what Theresa May says she wants can be achieved.
Still leavers look to blame the EU. Goldie says we've been stitched up by the EU because there is no solution to the Irish border. It's not the EUs fault, we negotiated and entered into the GFA willingly, the EU didn't force it on us or have any hand in it. We just created a solution to the Irish problem that only works if we're in the EU. Now having put our self neatly in a bind it's rather dishonest to blame a third party for that bind.
I think we all agree that there is no solution to the Irish Border problem.......apart from either building a wall along the entire length of it (not practical, very time consumung & obviously not welcomed by either side) or NI joining the ROI and staying in the EU (which again wont happen).
Therefore.....would you all agree that the UK has been stiched up over Europe big time. We effectively can never leave the EU (until there is a united Ireland perhaps) or does anyone really have an answer.
and before @Sethplum goes into his usual diatribe of......."you voted for it so its down to you to sort it"..... You would have thought if this was so blindlinly obvious then The Government, The Civil Service, The EU, The Tiosoch.....in fact even Old Tom Cobly should have stopped David Cameron ordering a Referendum on it.
I know people (sorry, remainers) keep telling me that we all knew this before June 23rd 2016.......but did we really ?? I've said before, I was not swayed at all by Boris & his big red bus & watched virtually all the debates, but I do not recall ANYONE pointing this out - especially not that vociferously - and do not recall the Irish border being brought up once.....even by the DUP.
Yes, you can call me stupid but I when I voted I thought the Government must have at least known that what they were offering was actually achievable in real life. They might as well asked if we want to join Australia or the USA for that matter.
I certainly remember the Irish border being brought up frequently, but not in any depth and usually treated with distain. The most common hand wave before the vote was to say there was a common travel area since 1923 so it wasn't an issue, closely followed by a blithe assertion that there would have to be a 'work around'. The disregard for Ireland also had a racist 'they're just a bunch of Micks' kind of tinge. Maybe it was only a serious concern for folk of my generation who clearly remember the troubles. The thing is that the border crystallises so much about brexit, the UK over here, the EU over there, and something in between, and what happens to that in between. If brexit voters didn't consider the issue, then indeed they didn't know what they were voting for, but brexit voters insist they did.
I recall it being brought up frequently on the Charlton Life referendum thread!!!!
...I know people (sorry, remainers) keep telling me that we all knew this before June 23rd 2016.......but did we really ?? I've said before, I was not swayed at all by Boris & his big red bus & watched virtually all the debates, but I do not recall ANYONE pointing this out - especially not that vociferously - and do not recall the Irish border being brought up once.....even by the DUP.
Yes, you can call me stupid but I when I voted I thought the Government must have at least known that what they were offering was actually achievable in real life. They might as well asked if we want to join Australia or the USA for that matter.
Whatever you say about Cameron, you can't level at him that he didn't warn about the border problem. Here he is quoted in the Irish Times:
Perhaps Her Majesty's Gutter Press were less inclined to report stories like this. Or perhaps Joe Public in England just shrugged and thought, 'yeah, but that's over there, it won't affect us'.
Where I think you do have a point is that it seems reasonable to expect that the government would only put to the people ideas that are workable. This gave the whole notion of Brexit a false legitimacy. Cameron had already been warned about 'unleashing demons'. Allowing a referendum knowing the huge inherent problems was perhaps the greatest dereliction of duty this country has ever seen.
I maintain that the issue of the Irish border receives the enhanced attention, and rightly so, because of the history of The Troubles. But the border there really only serves as a focus for the wider, massive contradiction of Leavers wanting to "take back control of our borders" whilst at the same time wanting them to be frictionless.
Leavers are invariably keen to point out they knew we would be on the outside of the SM/CU/EEA, etc. when they voted and this being the case there follows, inevitably, that measures and infrastructure are required to control the border we have just taken back control of. Otherwise we aren't controlling the border at all. At least in terms of making sure we only let in the people we want to and inspecting goods, raw materials, livestock, etc. etc. to ensure it meets our own laws, that we've also recently taken back control from the EU from. If we don't have our own, shiny, new laws, again what's the point?
Similarly the EU was always going to have to take steps to control it's own external border where it meets a country that has different product or environmental standards, practices and laws to those within the Single Market.
So although the Irish/NI border is seen as the current stumbling block the issues there are really only an enhanced version of those at any border, whether that's Dover, Felixstow, Ashford or Heathrow.
And there was plenty of discussion of the likely affects on those borders* during the referendum, it's just that any attempt to send up a warning sign was dismissed (and still is!) as Project Fear.
*...and we haven't really even got started on the whole Gibraltar situation yet.
The biggest joke of all of this, whether leave or remain is the utterly shambolic sideshow we’ve all been treated to highlighting the divisions within the Tory party. For the record I don’t think Labour would be doing much better, but the last year or so, seems like it’s been less about Brexit and a really shit documentary starring a bunch of idiots about the Tory party. Like the Man City documentary on amazon, but without the success and the class
I maintain that the issue of the Irish border receives the enhanced attention, and rightly so, because of the history of The Troubles. But the border there really only serves as a focus for the wider, massive contradiction of Leavers wanting to "take back control of our borders" whilst at the same time wanting them to be frictionless.
Leavers are invariably keen to point out they knew we would be on the outside of the SM/CU/EEA, etc. when they voted and this being the case there follows, inevitably, that measures and infrastructure are required to control the border we have just taken back control of. Otherwise we aren't controlling the border at all. At least in terms of making sure we only let in the people we want to and inspecting goods, raw materials, livestock, etc. etc. to ensure it meets our own laws, that we've also recently taken back control from the EU from. If we don't have our own, shiny, new laws, again what's the point?
Similarly the EU was always going to have to take steps to control it's own external border where it meets a country that has different product or environmental standards, practices and laws to those within the Single Market.
So although the Irish/NI border is seen as the current stumbling block the issues there are really only an enhanced version of those at any border, whether that's Dover, Felixstow, Ashford or Heathrow.
And there was plenty of discussion of the likely affects on those borders* during the referendum, it's just that any attempt to send up a warning sign was dismissed (and still is!) as Project Fear.
*...and we haven't really even got started on the whole Gibraltar situation yet.
Many leavers are keen to point this out but I’m afraid I don’t believe them. Not least because in the lead up to the referendum it is well documented that the leading lights of the Brexit campaign in Farage, Johnson, JRM, Grayling and Gove were very clear that “nobody is suggesting we leave the single market”. I’ll go as far as to say that 80% of the leave vote didn’t have a clue what the single market and customs union were. I’ll go even further and say that 50% of the then leave vote still don’t know.
I maintain that the issue of the Irish border receives the enhanced attention, and rightly so, because of the history of The Troubles. But the border there really only serves as a focus for the wider, massive contradiction of Leavers wanting to "take back control of our borders" whilst at the same time wanting them to be frictionless.
Leavers are invariably keen to point out they knew we would be on the outside of the SM/CU/EEA, etc. when they voted and this being the case there follows, inevitably, that measures and infrastructure are required to control the border we have just taken back control of. Otherwise we aren't controlling the border at all. At least in terms of making sure we only let in the people we want to and inspecting goods, raw materials, livestock, etc. etc. to ensure it meets our own laws, that we've also recently taken back control from the EU from. If we don't have our own, shiny, new laws, again what's the point?
Similarly the EU was always going to have to take steps to control it's own external border where it meets a country that has different product or environmental standards, practices and laws to those within the Single Market.
So although the Irish/NI border is seen as the current stumbling block the issues there are really only an enhanced version of those at any border, whether that's Dover, Felixstow, Ashford or Heathrow.
And there was plenty of discussion of the likely affects on those borders* during the referendum, it's just that any attempt to send up a warning sign was dismissed (and still is!) as Project Fear.
*...and we haven't really even got started on the whole Gibraltar situation yet.
Many leavers are keen to point this out but I’m afraid I don’t believe them. Not least because in the lead up to the referendum it is well documented that the leading lights of the Brexit campaign in Farage, Johnson, JRM, Grayling and Gove were very clear that “nobody is suggesting we leave the single market”. I’ll go as far as to say that 80% of the leave vote didn’t have a clue what the single market and customs union were. I’ll go even further and say that 50% of the then leave vote still don’t know.
Oh I know Shooters, I'm just pointing out that, even taken at face value, the position is contradictory and that the affects of controlling our borders, far from being underplayed or simply overlooked in the discussion were in fact deliberately dismissed by Leave as scaremongering. Leavers bought and still buy into that unfortunately and will continue to do so until the motorway in Kent is a car park...then they'll blame the EU.
Having a go like that at his kids was out of order in my view.
I think few people would disagree with that Seth.
I was enquiring with @Huskaris why he feels it's relevant to the Brexit discussion? I've no idea what way that stupid old scrote voted in the referendum and the protest was not anti-Brexit or pro-EU from what I've seen in the coverage.
Comments
No detail, nothing new, it won't work in practice and it does not address the movement of people.
I was looking forward to a possible solution, but however much the ERG say they have it sussed, they haven't.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/12/brexit-great-why-boris-johnson-jacob-rees-mogg-peter-bone-sad#img-1
I've not been able to follow the details of the proposals put forward this morning, but I fear that they continue to make some fairly Herculean assumptions about what would be acceptable to the other side in the negotiations (so that equivalence in terms of standards might be a bit difficult to achieve, as espoused in the ERG plan for the border in Ireland, if the ERG economic plan is to be followed), and I note with interest that the way to avoid having a border in the Irish Sea is to have a border in the Irish Sea (in terms of Biosecurity).
And, I'm not sure that the Northern Ireland Police Federation will be any more convinced by the plans announced today than they were yesterday (where they make clear that there will still be infrastructure and individuals who would be potential targets for dissidents, which requires additional resourcing).
I really wonder how this country has come to the sorry state of having so many low quality politicians interspersed with actual lunatics and chancers.
If the political watchers are to be believed it is when and not if a leadership challenge happens. We could actually end up with Boris Johnson or Jacob Rees-Mogg as Prime Minister.
Therefore.....would you all agree that the UK has been stiched up over Europe big time. We effectively can never leave the EU (until there is a united Ireland perhaps) or does anyone really have an answer.
and before @Sethplum goes into his usual diatribe of......."you voted for it so its down to you to sort it"..... You would have thought if this was so blindlinly obvious then The Government, The Civil Service, The EU, The Tiosoch.....in fact even Old Tom Cobly should have stopped David Cameron ordering a Referendum on it.
I know people (sorry, remainers) keep telling me that we all knew this before June 23rd 2016.......but did we really ?? I've said before, I was not swayed at all by Boris & his big red bus & watched virtually all the debates, but I do not recall ANYONE pointing this out - especially not that vociferously - and do not recall the Irish border being brought up once.....even by the DUP.
Yes, you can call me stupid but I when I voted I thought the Government must have at least known that what they were offering was actually achievable in real life. They might as well asked if we want to join Australia or the USA for that matter.
“‘No deal’ Brexit could leave UK holidaymakers treated like those outside EU”, the paper reports in horror.
The obsession with Europe at the expense of properly discussing the NHS, the education system or homelessness for example seems such a waste of public and governmental time, money and energy and has really only served as a way for some politicians to posture and self-promote for their own interests as well as completely dividing the country. What other things could have been done instead in the last few years instead of all the focus on this we'll never know.
The disregard for Ireland also had a racist 'they're just a bunch of Micks' kind of tinge.
Maybe it was only a serious concern for folk of my generation who clearly remember the troubles.
The thing is that the border crystallises so much about brexit, the UK over here, the EU over there, and something in between, and what happens to that in between.
If brexit voters didn't consider the issue, then indeed they didn't know what they were voting for, but brexit voters insist they did.
As for the DUP, I would not want to assume either that they were not affected by the same malaise as is alleged for Boris Johnson (Newton Emerson argues that they never believed Leave would win the Referendum, so that part of the failure to prepare was due to an expectation of "glorious" failure), nor that the DUP are desperately exercised by the need to preserve the Good Friday Agreement or avoid the reintroduction of border checks.
And, in fairness, it seems as if the DUP, if they thought about it at all, assumed that the Irish Government and EU would accomodate any and all ideas put forward by HMG (which is odd, because the last thing you'd ever accuse their particular strand of Unionism of is any sort of notion of entitled exceptionalism).
Fundamentally, a lot of Brexiteers seem to find it difficult to avoid personalising the Irish border, with the idea that the change of Taoiseach makes a difference to the Irish Government's efforts to protect its national interest. I seriously doubt if Enda Kenny, held up as some sort of paragon of Taoiseach-hood by the likes of Jacob Rees Mogg, would be pursuing a policy that differed in any way from that of Leo Varadkar's Government today.
As a minor aside, neither the Civil Service, nor the Irish Government nor the EU could have prevented David Cameron exercising the UK Government's right to act (with the support of a sovereign Parliament), no matter how stupid they believed the motivation, and vote to have the EU Referendum.
The problem that the UK Government faces is that the red lines that the Prime Minister set out, prior to negotiations, and continues to state are set in stone, are utterly incompatible with each other and contradictory when it comes to the Irish border.
There is no logical way that all of what Theresa May says she wants can be achieved.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/david-cameron-issues-warning-over-brexit-border-controls-1.2685814
Perhaps Her Majesty's Gutter Press were less inclined to report stories like this. Or perhaps Joe Public in England just shrugged and thought, 'yeah, but that's over there, it won't affect us'.
Where I think you do have a point is that it seems reasonable to expect that the government would only put to the people ideas that are workable. This gave the whole notion of Brexit a false legitimacy. Cameron had already been warned about 'unleashing demons'. Allowing a referendum knowing the huge inherent problems was perhaps the greatest dereliction of duty this country has ever seen.
https://www.ft.com/content/ed6bf5a0-8fb6-11e6-a72e-b428cb934b78
Leavers are invariably keen to point out they knew we would be on the outside of the SM/CU/EEA, etc. when they voted and this being the case there follows, inevitably, that measures and infrastructure are required to control the border we have just taken back control of. Otherwise we aren't controlling the border at all. At least in terms of making sure we only let in the people we want to and inspecting goods, raw materials, livestock, etc. etc. to ensure it meets our own laws, that we've also recently taken back control from the EU from. If we don't have our own, shiny, new laws, again what's the point?
Similarly the EU was always going to have to take steps to control it's own external border where it meets a country that has different product or environmental standards, practices and laws to those within the Single Market.
So although the Irish/NI border is seen as the current stumbling block the issues there are really only an enhanced version of those at any border, whether that's Dover, Felixstow, Ashford or Heathrow.
And there was plenty of discussion of the likely affects on those borders* during the referendum, it's just that any attempt to send up a warning sign was dismissed (and still is!) as Project Fear.
*...and we haven't really even got started on the whole Gibraltar situation yet.
September 12
''Thank goodness Jacob Rees-Mogg's children now all know how much we hate him''.
Discusting comment, are you really that thick?
I was enquiring with @Huskaris why he feels it's relevant to the Brexit discussion? I've no idea what way that stupid old scrote voted in the referendum and the protest was not anti-Brexit or pro-EU from what I've seen in the coverage.
You know where stand with Tory party.
Wouldn't it be the crowning irony of this thread if I get a blue passport before my good mate @Chippycafc ??
:-)