Government defeated over the Trade Bill in the Commons and will now have to have secure the UK’s continued participation in the European Medicines Agency as a negotiating objective.
All very sensible, why it wasn’t in the Trade Bill to begin with is unclear.
So it sounds like May’s “Chequers compromise” which would almost certainly be rejected by Brussels now won’t even make it that far after she has caved it to Brexiteers and has agreed to amendments to the Customs Bill - some of which seem to directly contradict the plan she came up with a couple of weeks ago.
Absolute shambles.
You can support it or not, but this is beyond belief. I really can't see how this shambles of a government can continue. This is people's livliehoods at stake here, whether you support Brexit or Remain. I think it is coming down to the two things - leaving with nothing or not leaving at all. What is needed, and everybody should support this, is a clarification of what people actually want via a clear second people's vote. Whatever the outcome, politicians need to be aware what the people are instructing.
I honestly think what is needed is for Labour to now back a Norway deal:
- it honours the referendum result to leave the EU - it’s achievable in the timescales (assuming we get the two year “implementation period still”) - it solves the Irish border question - it protects our economy from a cliff edge scenario - it would probably get the support of enough Tory remainer MPs and Lords to pass through Westminster - it’s a proposal that the EU will actually accept (unlike Chequers which was never going to be accepted anyway) - it won’t provide an end to free movement
This should have been the approach from the start, of the nation is still unsatisfied then we can change the relationship in the future but this now all pointing towards a no deal scenario which will be an absolute disaster.
Labour are playing it long on this because they are worried about the views of the Labour voting hard brexiteers mainly in the north. It's your last bullet point that is their big conundrum
I agree, freedom of movement is the big issue in all of this. It stems back to Cameron’s “I’ll reduce immigration to tens of thousands” things a few years ago which legitimised the idea that immigration is bad.
If I were Labour leader I would change the lens and re-cast immigration as a good thing that creates a net benefit to our country economically, socially and culturally. Not only is it true but that way you no are no longer shackled to Cameron’s mistake meaning you are now free to come to a sensible deal with the EU which keeps the four freedoms intact.
Great post. Immigration is an overwhelmingly good thing in my opinion.
what !!! did you not see the net migration figures yesterday. 286,000 last year. Thats over 1 million in 4 years.....so by 2030 thats another 3.5 million. And then thats without them having any offspring (vast majority of people entering are of child rearing age).
And before you say it, yes more were from non-EU countries......probably from the Commonwealth which we can't stop...
So it sounds like May’s “Chequers compromise” which would almost certainly be rejected by Brussels now won’t even make it that far after she has caved it to Brexiteers and has agreed to amendments to the Customs Bill - some of which seem to directly contradict the plan she came up with a couple of weeks ago.
Absolute shambles.
You can support it or not, but this is beyond belief. I really can't see how this shambles of a government can continue. This is people's livliehoods at stake here, whether you support Brexit or Remain. I think it is coming down to the two things - leaving with nothing or not leaving at all. What is needed, and everybody should support this, is a clarification of what people actually want via a clear second people's vote. Whatever the outcome, politicians need to be aware what the people are instructing.
I honestly think what is needed is for Labour to now back a Norway deal:
- it honours the referendum result to leave the EU - it’s achievable in the timescales (assuming we get the two year “implementation period still”) - it solves the Irish border question - it protects our economy from a cliff edge scenario - it would probably get the support of enough Tory remainer MPs and Lords to pass through Westminster - it’s a proposal that the EU will actually accept (unlike Chequers which was never going to be accepted anyway) - it won’t provide an end to free movement
This should have been the approach from the start, of the nation is still unsatisfied then we can change the relationship in the future but this now all pointing towards a no deal scenario which will be an absolute disaster.
Labour are playing it long on this because they are worried about the views of the Labour voting hard brexiteers mainly in the north. It's your last bullet point that is their big conundrum
I agree, freedom of movement is the big issue in all of this. It stems back to Cameron’s “I’ll reduce immigration to tens of thousands” things a few years ago which legitimised the idea that immigration is bad.
If I were Labour leader I would change the lens and re-cast immigration as a good thing that creates a net benefit to our country economically, socially and culturally. Not only is it true but that way you no are no longer shackled to Cameron’s mistake meaning you are now free to come to a sensible deal with the EU which keeps the four freedoms intact.
Great post. Immigration is an overwhelmingly good thing in my opinion.
what !!! did you not see the net migration figures yesterday. 286,000 last year. Thats over 1 million in 4 years.....so by 2030 thats another 3.5 million. And then thats without them having any offspring (vast majority of people entering are of child rearing age).
And before you say it, yes more were from non-EU countries......probably from the Commonwealth which we can't stop...
It is madness & it has to stop.
Errm I beg to differ, it is not madness. We are in the realm of global mathematics, not little Englander bean counting. When you say 'them' others would say 'us', as in we all have to share the planet, and face up to planetary problems. The comment about offspring is interesting. What if there was a huge rise in childbirth in the indigenous population? Would you lump that in with your 'madness' comment? Perhaps you would like to campaign for improved birth control methods, or the encouragement of vasectomies and hysterectomies. Perhaps such a campaign should reach out to 'them' and us.
Two of the major Brexiteers have Brazilian wives (origin not style choices). How did they, sundry Yanks, South Africans, Argie polo guys, Aussies, Kiwis, Russians, Japanese and others get immigrant status? On top of Middle East refugees here due to us bombing their country flat. At least the EU workers have a right to be here. Those above don't.
I believe it is 5% of the land in the UK that is built on. Read that somewhere.
I wonder how that compares to our European neighbours? They must be lower excluding spliffland and the country that gave us Dirty Roland given the size of country.
Norway Sweden and Finland have their right to roam policy and protect the environment with much gusto. The Environment has never been a major electoral issue in this country and we are the worse for it.
Interesting errors of judgement by Cable and Farron in not attending last nights vote.
I am fast finding I can only now vote Green and I never thought that would happen.
There has been a vote just now which was 305 to 302. It is all getting closer. The trouble is the politicians go on a three month holiday at the end of this week so they all get breathing space. Delay the inevitable I suppose. The Tories are ripping in to each other this week. People say Corbyn would be even worse, can it actually be any worse?
Arelene's mercenaries are really earning their millions now. I've got to be honest, I was skeptical at first but they are really doing just what they promised. As a tax payer, I think it's quite possibly the best value for money I ever got. Who needs the NHS when we've got the DUP?
Great post. Immigration is an overwhelmingly good thing in my opinion.
what !!! did you not see the net migration figures yesterday. 286,000 last year. Thats over 1 million in 4 years.....so by 2030 thats another 3.5 million. And then thats without them having any offspring (vast majority of people entering are of child rearing age).
And before you say it, yes more were from non-EU countries......probably from the Commonwealth which we can't stop...
It is madness & it has to stop.
The fact that the vast majority of people entering are of child-rearing is a good thing, cos it helps balance out the demographic bulge of pensioners we already have, and that is going to get worse as more and more of the baby boomers reach retirement age. Without these immigrants increasing demand in the economy and paying taxes we wouldn't be able to pay for the pensions and healthcare of the existing pensioners. So it's either immigration or granny cull, which are you in favour of Golfie?
There has been a vote just now which was 305 to 302. It is all getting closer. The trouble is the politicians go on a three month holiday at the end of this week so they all get breathing space. Delay the inevitable I suppose. The Tories are ripping in to each other this week. People say Corbyn would be even worse, can it actually be any worse?
Arelene's mercenaries are really earning their millions now. I've got to be honest, I was skeptical at first but they are really doing just what they promised. As a tax payer, I think it's quite possibly the best value for money I ever got. Who needs the NHS when we've got the DUP?
As @cafcfan, I believe, argued convincingly before the referendum, membership of the EU, which we can all agree brought at least some benefit to the UK, even before the introduction of the DUP Danegeld, cost the tax payer roughly £2 billion less per annum than Northern Ireland.
He made the point that there'd be more money for the NHS and virtually no economic damage to the UK as a whole in off-loading us over here, and staying in the EU (indeed, for Londoners there would be the benefit that the manufacturer of those delightful Routemaster replacements would be cast adrift as well).
Polls in recent months suggest a decent percentage in the UK are coming round to his way of thinking, at least partly.
Also, just imagine, no more Irish Border questions both @seth plum and Theresa May could sleep more soundly.
I only wish a "serious"* media channel would forcefully make the suggestion, it would be hilarious to watch Sammy Wilson or Nigel Dodds react.
Two of the major Brexiteers have Brazilian wives (origin not style choices). How did they, sundry Yanks, South Africans, Argie polo guys, Aussies, Kiwis, Russians, Japanese and others get immigrant status? On top of Middle East refugees here due to us bombing their country flat. At least the EU workers have a right to be here. Those above don't.
How did you come to The conclusion that those people have no right to be in England? Would you say the same about @seth plum s wife?
Do you have any idea how hard the process is to move to The UK, the hoops you have to go to in order to prove you will be a benefit to the nation? That's before you even consider The c.20k it's going to cost, without ever being sure it will be a success.
My wife is a Fantastic teacher, she got her qualifications in The US and is a fluent English speaker, with The UKs lack of teachers, the perfect immigrant, some might say, but you think because she's Chinese, not European, she has no right to be in the UK? Ridiculous.
Oh dear that's an unfortunate mix up that the HoC "pairing" arrangement broke down the same day the government was facing a crucial and very close vote. I'm sure it's all perfectly innocent though.
The problem now is that both sides of the conservative party are joining their battle lines. May scraped through a vote yesterday thanks to a few Labour MPs. She has to now negotiate a minefield every day! What she has been told by a number of Tories who supported her yesterday is that they will not allow a hard Brexit. A Hard Brexit is not achievable with the numbers as they are. Remainers should be happy.
But of course this can't end well. Whatever happens nobody is going to be happy. We need another referendum - I don't know what the outcome of it will be, but it needs to be correctly worded to instruct politicians. At least then nobody can argue and hopefully get together to make the best of whatever we do! The country needs it - Anybody who can't see that hasn't been paying attention.
The problem now is that both sides of the conservative party are joining their battle lines. May scraped through a vote yesterday thanks to a few Labour MPs. She has to now negotiate a minefield every day! What she has been told by a number of Tories who supported her yesterday is that they will not allow a hard Brexit. A Hard Brexit is not achievable with the numbers as they are. Remainers should be happy.
But of course this can't end well. Whatever happens nobody is going to be happy. We need another referendum - I don't know what the outcome of it will be, but it needs to be correctly worded to instruct politicians. At least then nobody can argue and hopefully get together to make the best of whatever we do! The country needs it - Anybody who can't see that hasn't been paying attention.
Moreover, if a hard Brexit i.e. no deal was passed by parliamentary vote, in my opinion the demonstrations that followed would make the poll tax riots look like a small social gathering of friends.
The problem now is that both sides of the conservative party are joining their battle lines. May scraped through a vote yesterday thanks to a few Labour MPs. She has to now negotiate a minefield every day! What she has been told by a number of Tories who supported her yesterday is that they will not allow a hard Brexit. A Hard Brexit is not achievable with the numbers as they are. Remainers should be happy.
But of course this can't end well. Whatever happens nobody is going to be happy. We need another referendum - I don't know what the outcome of it will be, but it needs to be correctly worded to instruct politicians. At least then nobody can argue and hopefully get together to make the best of whatever we do! The country needs it - Anybody who can't see that hasn't been paying attention.
I can’t see it, I am paying attention.
I found nothing to celebrate from yesterday’s votes other than our continued membership of the EMA. Having continued membership of the Customs Union whilst we continue to negotiate in the event of no deal seems logical to me, but as I’ve said logic seems to have gone out the window.
I actually think a no deal “hard” Brexit is by far the most likely outcome now.
I think sometimes you just have to accept that this is a mess and try to fix it. Susannah Reid actually made an analogy this morning that sums it up. The referendum effectively asked whether you wanted ice cream or no ice cream. People like Piers Morgan is arguing that we did and we want Rum and Raisin, but he is a plonker - some will have wanted Mint Choc Chip and some Vanilla. You can't assume everybody wanted Rum and Raisin because you want it.
The referendum was flawed. The subject was not fitting for a referendum in all honesty. it was only called to unify the Conservative party. A major thing such as this should be the policy of a party, in its manifesto and a consequence of voting for a party. We had a referendum campaign where both sides were competing with each other in terms of who could tell the biggest lies. Look at that NHS advert - it was a disgrace and illustrated what a joke the whole process was.
If you understood that for the prosperity of the country we needed to retain links with the EU, but was not a fan of the EU, it was incredibly difficult to engage. You had to lie on one extreme or lie in another. I think they should build a prison especially for Cameron and he needs to be locked up in it for life for the damage he has done to this country. I'm with Danny Dyer on that - Where is the C**t?
So it sounds like May’s “Chequers compromise” which would almost certainly be rejected by Brussels now won’t even make it that far after she has caved it to Brexiteers and has agreed to amendments to the Customs Bill - some of which seem to directly contradict the plan she came up with a couple of weeks ago.
Absolute shambles.
You can support it or not, but this is beyond belief. I really can't see how this shambles of a government can continue. This is people's livliehoods at stake here, whether you support Brexit or Remain. I think it is coming down to the two things - leaving with nothing or not leaving at all. What is needed, and everybody should support this, is a clarification of what people actually want via a clear second people's vote. Whatever the outcome, politicians need to be aware what the people are instructing.
I honestly think what is needed is for Labour to now back a Norway deal:
- it honours the referendum result to leave the EU - it’s achievable in the timescales (assuming we get the two year “implementation period still”) - it solves the Irish border question - it protects our economy from a cliff edge scenario - it would probably get the support of enough Tory remainer MPs and Lords to pass through Westminster - it’s a proposal that the EU will actually accept (unlike Chequers which was never going to be accepted anyway) - it won’t provide an end to free movement
This should have been the approach from the start, of the nation is still unsatisfied then we can change the relationship in the future but this now all pointing towards a no deal scenario which will be an absolute disaster.
Labour are playing it long on this because they are worried about the views of the Labour voting hard brexiteers mainly in the north. It's your last bullet point that is their big conundrum
I agree, freedom of movement is the big issue in all of this. It stems back to Cameron’s “I’ll reduce immigration to tens of thousands” things a few years ago which legitimised the idea that immigration is bad.
If I were Labour leader I would change the lens and re-cast immigration as a good thing that creates a net benefit to our country economically, socially and culturally. Not only is it true but that way you no are no longer shackled to Cameron’s mistake meaning you are now free to come to a sensible deal with the EU which keeps the four freedoms intact.
Great post. Immigration is an overwhelmingly good thing in my opinion.
what !!! did you not see the net migration figures yesterday. 286,000 last year. Thats over 1 million in 4 years.....so by 2030 thats another 3.5 million. And then thats without them having any offspring (vast majority of people entering are of child rearing age).
And before you say it, yes more were from non-EU countries......probably from the Commonwealth which we can't stop...
It is madness & it has to stop.
Yes of course it does! We need to change so that we don't need to import a quarter of a million new people every year to grow the economy and look after our ageing parents and lazy children.
But I don't see how leaving the EU is going to help. So long as we need and ask people to come here they will!
Relying on trade deals to provide cheap imports and a low-paid work force is just going to make things worse.
The problem now is that both sides of the conservative party are joining their battle lines. May scraped through a vote yesterday thanks to a few Labour MPs. She has to now negotiate a minefield every day! What she has been told by a number of Tories who supported her yesterday is that they will not allow a hard Brexit. A Hard Brexit is not achievable with the numbers as they are. Remainers should be happy.
But of course this can't end well. Whatever happens nobody is going to be happy. We need another referendum - I don't know what the outcome of it will be, but it needs to be correctly worded to instruct politicians. At least then nobody can argue and hopefully get together to make the best of whatever we do! The country needs it - Anybody who can't see that hasn't been paying attention.
I can’t see it, I am paying attention.
I found nothing to celebrate from yesterday’s votes other than our continued membership of the EMA. Having continued membership of the Customs Union whilst we continue to negotiate in the event of no deal seems logical to me, but as I’ve said logic seems to have gone out the window.
I actually think a no deal “hard” Brexit is by far the most likely outcome now.
This is where I am with it all too tbh.
There was a massive trade deal signed yesterday which will benefit EU members hugely. It merited two lines on the news and as far as I can see none of the Leavers on here responded to the news. In little over half a year or so we will be walking away from that benefit on the premise that somehow we can get a better deal on our own.
It's an utterly illogical position but people don't seem to care. Whatever is driving their views it isn't the economic well being of the UK imo and as long as that continues there will be enough public support for a no deal, cliff edge Brexit and that is where we are heading.
Two of the major Brexiteers have Brazilian wives (origin not style choices). How did they, sundry Yanks, South Africans, Argie polo guys, Aussies, Kiwis, Russians, Japanese and others get immigrant status? On top of Middle East refugees here due to us bombing their country flat. At least the EU workers have a right to be here. Those above don't.
How did you come to The conclusion that those people have no right to be in England? Would you say the same about @seth plum s wife?
Do you have any idea how hard the process is to move to The UK, the hoops you have to go to in order to prove you will be a benefit to the nation? That's before you even consider The c.20k it's going to cost, without ever being sure it will be a success.
My wife is a Fantastic teacher, she got her qualifications in The US and is a fluent English speaker, with The UKs lack of teachers, the perfect immigrant, some might say, but you think because she's Chinese, not European, she has no right to be in the UK? Ridiculous.
I was born in one of the countries above and have no issues with immigration. The point is that those Leavers do have such a problem with the issue, yet the ethnicity of tbeir wives makes them hypocites.
I genuinely don't believe that all leavers voted because of the perceived economic benefits, except for the ones who posted decent arguments on here such as stonemuse and dippenhall.
For many it's about vague concepts such as sovereignty and control which are hard to define and harder to argue against
Two of the major Brexiteers have Brazilian wives (origin not style choices). How did they, sundry Yanks, South Africans, Argie polo guys, Aussies, Kiwis, Russians, Japanese and others get immigrant status? On top of Middle East refugees here due to us bombing their country flat. At least the EU workers have a right to be here. Those above don't.
How did you come to The conclusion that those people have no right to be in England? Would you say the same about @seth plum s wife?
Do you have any idea how hard the process is to move to The UK, the hoops you have to go to in order to prove you will be a benefit to the nation? That's before you even consider The c.20k it's going to cost, without ever being sure it will be a success.
My wife is a Fantastic teacher, she got her qualifications in The US and is a fluent English speaker, with The UKs lack of teachers, the perfect immigrant, some might say, but you think because she's Chinese, not European, she has no right to be in the UK? Ridiculous.
Indeed. There are hoops to jump through. Mrs Plum has been employed by the UK government directly, worked for folk in the Diplomatic, security and secret services. Had five textbooks published and as we speak is finishing her sixth, and she works for a very prestigious University. There were a lot of hoops to jump through in order to get her the right to stay, and yet we have been married for over 25 years and together for nearly 30. Brexiters are vile, but their marital status is a different issue. As is mine as a vile (but correct) remainer.
The problem now is that both sides of the conservative party are joining their battle lines. May scraped through a vote yesterday thanks to a few Labour MPs. She has to now negotiate a minefield every day! What she has been told by a number of Tories who supported her yesterday is that they will not allow a hard Brexit. A Hard Brexit is not achievable with the numbers as they are. Remainers should be happy.
But of course this can't end well. Whatever happens nobody is going to be happy. We need another referendum - I don't know what the outcome of it will be, but it needs to be correctly worded to instruct politicians. At least then nobody can argue and hopefully get together to make the best of whatever we do! The country needs it - Anybody who can't see that hasn't been paying attention.
I can’t see it, I am paying attention.
I found nothing to celebrate from yesterday’s votes other than our continued membership of the EMA. Having continued membership of the Customs Union whilst we continue to negotiate in the event of no deal seems logical to me, but as I’ve said logic seems to have gone out the window.
I actually think a no deal “hard” Brexit is by far the most likely outcome now.
This is where I am with it all too tbh.
There was a massive trade deal signed yesterday which will benefit EU members hugely. It merited two lines on the news and as far as I can see none of the Leavers on here responded to the news. In little over half a year or so we will be walking away from that benefit on the premise that somehow we can get a better deal on our own.
It's an utterly illogical position but people don't seem to care. Whatever is driving their views it isn't the economic well being of the UK imo and as long as that continues there will be enough public support for a no deal, cliff edge Brexit and that is where we are heading.
Japanese car exports to the EU will see the current 10% tariffs reduce to zero over the next 8 years. Japanese cars made in the UK and exported to the EU will continue to carry the 10% tariff if a hard Brexit materialises.
Good news for Swindon, Cowley, Sunderland and Burnaston.
So it sounds like May’s “Chequers compromise” which would almost certainly be rejected by Brussels now won’t even make it that far after she has caved it to Brexiteers and has agreed to amendments to the Customs Bill - some of which seem to directly contradict the plan she came up with a couple of weeks ago.
Absolute shambles.
You can support it or not, but this is beyond belief. I really can't see how this shambles of a government can continue. This is people's livliehoods at stake here, whether you support Brexit or Remain. I think it is coming down to the two things - leaving with nothing or not leaving at all. What is needed, and everybody should support this, is a clarification of what people actually want via a clear second people's vote. Whatever the outcome, politicians need to be aware what the people are instructing.
I honestly think what is needed is for Labour to now back a Norway deal:
- it honours the referendum result to leave the EU - it’s achievable in the timescales (assuming we get the two year “implementation period still”) - it solves the Irish border question - it protects our economy from a cliff edge scenario - it would probably get the support of enough Tory remainer MPs and Lords to pass through Westminster - it’s a proposal that the EU will actually accept (unlike Chequers which was never going to be accepted anyway) - it won’t provide an end to free movement
This should have been the approach from the start, of the nation is still unsatisfied then we can change the relationship in the future but this now all pointing towards a no deal scenario which will be an absolute disaster.
Labour are playing it long on this because they are worried about the views of the Labour voting hard brexiteers mainly in the north. It's your last bullet point that is their big conundrum
I agree, freedom of movement is the big issue in all of this. It stems back to Cameron’s “I’ll reduce immigration to tens of thousands” things a few years ago which legitimised the idea that immigration is bad.
If I were Labour leader I would change the lens and re-cast immigration as a good thing that creates a net benefit to our country economically, socially and culturally. Not only is it true but that way you no are no longer shackled to Cameron’s mistake meaning you are now free to come to a sensible deal with the EU which keeps the four freedoms intact.
Great post. Immigration is an overwhelmingly good thing in my opinion.
what !!! did you not see the net migration figures yesterday. 286,000 last year. Thats over 1 million in 4 years.....so by 2030 thats another 3.5 million. And then thats without them having any offspring (vast majority of people entering are of child rearing age).
And before you say it, yes more were from non-EU countries......probably from the Commonwealth which we can't stop...
It is madness & it has to stop.
"Probably from the Commonwealth which we can't stop". Has this really been written by someone on the leave side of the debate?
Golfie, do you think we have control over migration from the Commonwealth, or not? Because if we don't have control over migration from the Commonwealth, why have you voted for the same level of control for people from the EU?
The whole point of the migration element of the referendum campaign was to ensure that we no longer were forced to adopt freedom of movement, despite its many and obvious benefits. People who thought we had too much inward migration from the EU were encouraged to vote leave so that we had "control" over which EU migrants were allowed to come here - to the same extent that we "control" migration from, say, the Commonwealth. Did you *really* vote leave in order to be able to apply migration laws to EU citizens that we apply to Commonwealth citizens, while at the same time thinking that we can't control migration from Commonwealth countries? If so, that's a World Cup level of cognitive dissonance.
Migration is "madness" and "has to stop"? Have you considered where we would be without a permanent influx of working-age migrants, looking to earn money? Have you considered the effect on - say - the NHS staffing levels (we have 93,000 unfilled vacancies in the NHS now - imagine how many there would be if foreigners were no longer allowed to work in the NHS)? Or food production - do farms rely on British workers to harvest crops or migrants, do you think? Or football - do you think it would have a positive effect on football in England if the "madness" of migration were to stop? Are all forms of public transport in this country operated exclusively by British people, or do we rely on migrants? Care homes are going to be in greater demand in future - are all care home staff British, or are there foreign-born workers that look after our sick and elderly?
What have migrants ever done for us?
1. Migrants are more likely to be working age. Generally net immigration leads to an increase in the labour force and increases the potential output capacity of the economy. 2. Migrants will increase the total spending within the economy. So net migration leads to an increase in real GDP 3. Net migration creates a more flexible labour market - people move to where the jobs are. 4. Net migration helps to reduce the dependency ratio. If migrants are of working age, they will pay income tax, VAT – but will not be claiming benefits. 5. Foreign students contribute £2,500,000,000 a year in fees. 6. A growing population (which is the case in the UK either with or without net migration) requires more housing, roads, schools and other infrastructure. This construct relies on foreign workers. And foreign workers' contributions to the treasury - through income tax and VAT - help pay for the necessary work. 7. Immigrants arriving since 1999 are 45% less likely to receive state benefits or tax credits than native-born British people. And we are also able to deport anyone arriving fro the EU who is unable to support themselves after four months. In other words, immigrants are a lower burden to the state than the native population. 8. Please don't say migration is madness and has to stop.
The last thing I am going to take you to task on is your comment "that's without them having offspring". As if it's some kind of crime or affront for people who are in the UK, working and earning a living to have the audacity to have children. And that you're vilifying yet another group of people - a group that are born, bred and raised in the UK. I'm fiercely proud that people want to settle in this country. And I think it's a very, very good thing indeed that we have migrants wanting to have children and to bring them up here. I think your singling out of a group of people who - through no choice of theirs - have been born in the UK, like I was and maybe like you were. That's beyond the pale.
I genuinely don't believe that all leavers voted because of the perceived economic benefits, except for the ones who posted decent arguments on here such as stonemuse and dippenhall.
For many it's about vague concepts such as sovereignty and control which are hard to define and harder to argue against
The vast majority of voters are ill-informed whether it be at a referendum or general election and that seems unlikely to change. I don't think there was a clear economic debate over the impact of Brexit or any real understanding of what the process entails - the whole thing was an utter shambles made worse by some of the grandstanding of our politicians.
I have been disgusted by the petty infighting within the Government and reluctance to sort anything out - if we do end up leaving the EU with No Deal then I'm unclear how chaos will not ensue.
The border situation for trade is a potential disaster.
So it sounds like May’s “Chequers compromise” which would almost certainly be rejected by Brussels now won’t even make it that far after she has caved it to Brexiteers and has agreed to amendments to the Customs Bill - some of which seem to directly contradict the plan she came up with a couple of weeks ago.
Absolute shambles.
You can support it or not, but this is beyond belief. I really can't see how this shambles of a government can continue. This is people's livliehoods at stake here, whether you support Brexit or Remain. I think it is coming down to the two things - leaving with nothing or not leaving at all. What is needed, and everybody should support this, is a clarification of what people actually want via a clear second people's vote. Whatever the outcome, politicians need to be aware what the people are instructing.
I honestly think what is needed is for Labour to now back a Norway deal:
- it honours the referendum result to leave the EU - it’s achievable in the timescales (assuming we get the two year “implementation period still”) - it solves the Irish border question - it protects our economy from a cliff edge scenario - it would probably get the support of enough Tory remainer MPs and Lords to pass through Westminster - it’s a proposal that the EU will actually accept (unlike Chequers which was never going to be accepted anyway) - it won’t provide an end to free movement
This should have been the approach from the start, of the nation is still unsatisfied then we can change the relationship in the future but this now all pointing towards a no deal scenario which will be an absolute disaster.
Labour are playing it long on this because they are worried about the views of the Labour voting hard brexiteers mainly in the north. It's your last bullet point that is their big conundrum
I agree, freedom of movement is the big issue in all of this. It stems back to Cameron’s “I’ll reduce immigration to tens of thousands” things a few years ago which legitimised the idea that immigration is bad.
If I were Labour leader I would change the lens and re-cast immigration as a good thing that creates a net benefit to our country economically, socially and culturally. Not only is it true but that way you no are no longer shackled to Cameron’s mistake meaning you are now free to come to a sensible deal with the EU which keeps the four freedoms intact.
Great post. Immigration is an overwhelmingly good thing in my opinion.
what !!! did you not see the net migration figures yesterday. 286,000 last year. Thats over 1 million in 4 years.....so by 2030 thats another 3.5 million. And then thats without them having any offspring (vast majority of people entering are of child rearing age).
And before you say it, yes more were from non-EU countries......probably from the Commonwealth which we can't stop...
It is madness & it has to stop.
"Probably from the Commonwealth which we can't stop". Has this really been written by someone on the leave side of the debate?
Golfie, do you think we have control over migration from the Commonwealth, or not? Because if we don't have control over migration from the Commonwealth, why have you voted for the same level of control for people from the EU?
The whole point of the migration element of the referendum campaign was to ensure that we no longer were forced to adopt freedom of movement, despite its many and obvious benefits. People who thought we had too much inward migration from the EU were encouraged to vote leave so that we had "control" over which EU migrants were allowed to come here - to the same extent that we "control" migration from, say, the Commonwealth. Did you *really* vote leave in order to be able to apply migration laws to EU citizens that we apply to Commonwealth citizens, while at the same time thinking that we can't control migration from Commonwealth countries? If so, that's a World Cup level of cognitive dissonance.
Migration is "madness" and "has to stop"? Have you considered where we would be without a permanent influx of working-age migrants, looking to earn money? Have you considered the effect on - say - the NHS staffing levels (we have 93,000 unfilled vacancies in the NHS now - imagine how many there would be if foreigners were no longer allowed to work in the NHS)? Or food production - do farms rely on British workers to harvest crops or migrants, do you think? Or football - do you think it would have a positive effect on football in England if the "madness" of migration were to stop? Are all forms of public transport in this country operated exclusively by British people, or do we rely on migrants? Care homes are going to be in greater demand in future - are all care home staff British, or are there foreign-born workers that look after our sick and elderly?
What have migrants ever done for us?
1. Migrants are more likely to be working age. Generally net immigration leads to an increase in the labour force and increases the potential output capacity of the economy. 2. Migrants will increase the total spending within the economy. So net migration leads to an increase in real GDP 3. Net migration creates a more flexible labour market - people move to where the jobs are. 4. Net migration helps to reduce the dependency ratio. If migrants are of working age, they will pay income tax, VAT – but will not be claiming benefits. 5. Foreign students contribute £2,500,000,000 a year in fees. 6. A growing population (which is the case in the UK either with or without net migration) requires more housing, roads, schools and other infrastructure. This construct relies on foreign workers. And foreign workers' contributions to the treasury - through income tax and VAT - help pay for the necessary work. 7. Immigrants arriving since 1999 are 45% less likely to receive state benefits or tax credits than native-born British people. And we are also able to deport anyone arriving fro the EU who is unable to support themselves after four months. In other words, immigrants are a lower burden to the state than the native population. 8. Please don't say migration is madness and has to stop.
The last thing I am going to take you to task on is your comment "that's without them having offspring". As if it's some kind of crime or affront for people who are in the UK, working and earning a living to have the audacity to have children. And that you're vilifying yet another group of people - a group that are born, bred and raised in the UK. I'm fiercely proud that people want to settle in this country. And I think it's a very, very good thing indeed that we have migrants wanting to have children and to bring them up here. I think your singling out of a group of people who - through no choice of theirs - have been born in the UK, like I was and maybe like you were. That's beyond the pale.
The problem now is that both sides of the conservative party are joining their battle lines. May scraped through a vote yesterday thanks to a few Labour MPs. She has to now negotiate a minefield every day! What she has been told by a number of Tories who supported her yesterday is that they will not allow a hard Brexit. A Hard Brexit is not achievable with the numbers as they are. Remainers should be happy.
But of course this can't end well. Whatever happens nobody is going to be happy. We need another referendum - I don't know what the outcome of it will be, but it needs to be correctly worded to instruct politicians. At least then nobody can argue and hopefully get together to make the best of whatever we do! The country needs it - Anybody who can't see that hasn't been paying attention.
I can’t see it, I am paying attention.
I found nothing to celebrate from yesterday’s votes other than our continued membership of the EMA. Having continued membership of the Customs Union whilst we continue to negotiate in the event of no deal seems logical to me, but as I’ve said logic seems to have gone out the window.
I actually think a no deal “hard” Brexit is by far the most likely outcome now.
This is where I am with it all too tbh.
There was a massive trade deal signed yesterday which will benefit EU members hugely. It merited two lines on the news and as far as I can see none of the Leavers on here responded to the news. In little over half a year or so we will be walking away from that benefit on the premise that somehow we can get a better deal on our own.
It's an utterly illogical position but people don't seem to care. Whatever is driving their views it isn't the economic well being of the UK imo and as long as that continues there will be enough public support for a no deal, cliff edge Brexit and that is where we are heading.
Japanese car exports to the EU will see the current 10% tariffs reduce to zero over the next 8 years. Japanese cars made in the UK and exported to the EU will continue to carry the 10% tariff if a hard Brexit materialises.
Good news for Swindon, Cowley, Sunderland and Burnaston.
Unless the government bribe to Nissan foresaw this, they either gave them a blank cheque to offset tariffs or could need to find a way to underwrite up to 10% of the value of each car exported. Something tells me there'll be some lip service paid to staying, then a quiet withdrawal.
Superb post chizz. I repeatedly return to the notion that despite logic which is probably irrelevant in this whole debate, the red raw motivation for brexiters is a hatred of foreigners and racism. At least chippy is honest about this when he tells us of his hatred for the Irish, other more articulate brexiters disguise their own prejudices more carefully. How dare 'foreign' people breed like rabbits huh?
Great post Chizz - I wish the Remain campaign would have used these strong economic (and common sense) arguments for immigration.
Sadly so many people have an entrenched negative view of immigration despite its obvious benefits and are happy to just be fed misinformation and hysteria about it by the tabloid press.
Comments
All very sensible, why it wasn’t in the Trade Bill to begin with is unclear.
And before you say it, yes more were from non-EU countries......probably from the Commonwealth which we can't stop...
It is madness & it has to stop.
We are in the realm of global mathematics, not little Englander bean counting.
When you say 'them' others would say 'us', as in we all have to share the planet, and face up to planetary problems.
The comment about offspring is interesting. What if there was a huge rise in childbirth in the indigenous population?
Would you lump that in with your 'madness' comment?
Perhaps you would like to campaign for improved birth control methods, or the encouragement of vasectomies and hysterectomies. Perhaps such a campaign should reach out to 'them' and us.
Norway Sweden and Finland have their right to roam policy and protect the environment with much gusto. The Environment has never been a major electoral issue in this country and we are the worse for it.
Interesting errors of judgement by Cable and Farron in not attending last nights vote.
I am fast finding I can only now vote Green and I never thought that would happen.
He made the point that there'd be more money for the NHS and virtually no economic damage to the UK as a whole in off-loading us over here, and staying in the EU (indeed, for Londoners there would be the benefit that the manufacturer of those delightful Routemaster replacements would be cast adrift as well).
Polls in recent months suggest a decent percentage in the UK are coming round to his way of thinking, at least partly.
Also, just imagine, no more Irish Border questions both @seth plum and Theresa May could sleep more soundly.
I only wish a "serious"* media channel would forcefully make the suggestion, it would be hilarious to watch Sammy Wilson or Nigel Dodds react.
*As if anyone could be more serious than us.
Do you have any idea how hard the process is to move to The UK, the hoops you have to go to in order to prove you will be a benefit to the nation? That's before you even consider The c.20k it's going to cost, without ever being sure it will be a success.
My wife is a Fantastic teacher, she got her qualifications in The US and is a fluent English speaker, with The UKs lack of teachers, the perfect immigrant, some might say, but you think because she's Chinese, not European, she has no right to be in the UK? Ridiculous.
https://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44867866
But of course this can't end well. Whatever happens nobody is going to be happy. We need another referendum - I don't know what the outcome of it will be, but it needs to be correctly worded to instruct politicians. At least then nobody can argue and hopefully get together to make the best of whatever we do! The country needs it - Anybody who can't see that hasn't been paying attention.
I found nothing to celebrate from yesterday’s votes other than our continued membership of the EMA. Having continued membership of the Customs Union whilst we continue to negotiate in the event of no deal seems logical to me, but as I’ve said logic seems to have gone out the window.
I actually think a no deal “hard” Brexit is by far the most likely outcome now.
The referendum was flawed. The subject was not fitting for a referendum in all honesty. it was only called to unify the Conservative party. A major thing such as this should be the policy of a party, in its manifesto and a consequence of voting for a party. We had a referendum campaign where both sides were competing with each other in terms of who could tell the biggest lies. Look at that NHS advert - it was a disgrace and illustrated what a joke the whole process was.
If you understood that for the prosperity of the country we needed to retain links with the EU, but was not a fan of the EU, it was incredibly difficult to engage. You had to lie on one extreme or lie in another. I think they should build a prison especially for Cameron and he needs to be locked up in it for life for the damage he has done to this country. I'm with Danny Dyer on that - Where is the C**t?
But I don't see how leaving the EU is going to help. So long as we need and ask people to come here they will!
Relying on trade deals to provide cheap imports and a low-paid work force is just going to make things worse.
There was a massive trade deal signed yesterday which will benefit EU members hugely. It merited two lines on the news and as far as I can see none of the Leavers on here responded to the news. In little over half a year or so we will be walking away from that benefit on the premise that somehow we can get a better deal on our own.
It's an utterly illogical position but people don't seem to care. Whatever is driving their views it isn't the economic well being of the UK imo and as long as that continues there will be enough public support for a no deal, cliff edge Brexit and that is where we are heading.
For many it's about vague concepts such as sovereignty and control which are hard to define and harder to argue against
There are hoops to jump through.
Mrs Plum has been employed by the UK government directly, worked for folk in the Diplomatic, security and secret services. Had five textbooks published and as we speak is finishing her sixth, and she works for a very prestigious University.
There were a lot of hoops to jump through in order to get her the right to stay, and yet we have been married for over 25 years and together for nearly 30.
Brexiters are vile, but their marital status is a different issue. As is mine as a vile (but correct) remainer.
Good news for Swindon, Cowley, Sunderland and Burnaston.
Golfie, do you think we have control over migration from the Commonwealth, or not? Because if we don't have control over migration from the Commonwealth, why have you voted for the same level of control for people from the EU?
The whole point of the migration element of the referendum campaign was to ensure that we no longer were forced to adopt freedom of movement, despite its many and obvious benefits. People who thought we had too much inward migration from the EU were encouraged to vote leave so that we had "control" over which EU migrants were allowed to come here - to the same extent that we "control" migration from, say, the Commonwealth. Did you *really* vote leave in order to be able to apply migration laws to EU citizens that we apply to Commonwealth citizens, while at the same time thinking that we can't control migration from Commonwealth countries? If so, that's a World Cup level of cognitive dissonance.
Migration is "madness" and "has to stop"? Have you considered where we would be without a permanent influx of working-age migrants, looking to earn money? Have you considered the effect on - say - the NHS staffing levels (we have 93,000 unfilled vacancies in the NHS now - imagine how many there would be if foreigners were no longer allowed to work in the NHS)? Or food production - do farms rely on British workers to harvest crops or migrants, do you think? Or football - do you think it would have a positive effect on football in England if the "madness" of migration were to stop? Are all forms of public transport in this country operated exclusively by British people, or do we rely on migrants? Care homes are going to be in greater demand in future - are all care home staff British, or are there foreign-born workers that look after our sick and elderly?
What have migrants ever done for us?
1. Migrants are more likely to be working age. Generally net immigration leads to an increase in the labour force and increases the potential output capacity of the economy.
2. Migrants will increase the total spending within the economy. So net migration leads to an increase in real GDP
3. Net migration creates a more flexible labour market - people move to where the jobs are.
4. Net migration helps to reduce the dependency ratio. If migrants are of working age, they will pay income tax, VAT – but will not be claiming benefits.
5. Foreign students contribute £2,500,000,000 a year in fees.
6. A growing population (which is the case in the UK either with or without net migration) requires more housing, roads, schools and other infrastructure. This construct relies on foreign workers. And foreign workers' contributions to the treasury - through income tax and VAT - help pay for the necessary work.
7. Immigrants arriving since 1999 are 45% less likely to receive state benefits or tax credits than native-born British people. And we are also able to deport anyone arriving fro the EU who is unable to support themselves after four months. In other words, immigrants are a lower burden to the state than the native population.
8. Please don't say migration is madness and has to stop.
The last thing I am going to take you to task on is your comment "that's without them having offspring". As if it's some kind of crime or affront for people who are in the UK, working and earning a living to have the audacity to have children. And that you're vilifying yet another group of people - a group that are born, bred and raised in the UK. I'm fiercely proud that people want to settle in this country. And I think it's a very, very good thing indeed that we have migrants wanting to have children and to bring them up here. I think your singling out of a group of people who - through no choice of theirs - have been born in the UK, like I was and maybe like you were. That's beyond the pale.
I have been disgusted by the petty infighting within the Government and reluctance to sort anything out - if we do end up leaving the EU with No Deal then I'm unclear how chaos will not ensue.
The border situation for trade is a potential disaster.
I repeatedly return to the notion that despite logic which is probably irrelevant in this whole debate, the red raw motivation for brexiters is a hatred of foreigners and racism.
At least chippy is honest about this when he tells us of his hatred for the Irish, other more articulate brexiters disguise their own prejudices more carefully.
How dare 'foreign' people breed like rabbits huh?
Sadly so many people have an entrenched negative view of immigration despite its obvious benefits and are happy to just be fed misinformation and hysteria about it by the tabloid press.