Trump advocating a hard Brexit helps to add to the view that it is a ridiculously bad idea: the man is so clueless about international affairs that his endorsement should be enough to sink it.
Chizz, I agree and quite honestly, although undecided I may well vote to remain, because I no longer trust any politician of any party to deliver anything better.
The evidence that it will be a disaster is now overwhelming. Businesses, big and small, have really hammered home over the last few weeks the consequences on investment and jobs that any kind of Brexit will have. I believe it is this unrelenting message from business that has prompted her to stand up to the Brexit extremists and propose the soft Brexit that is contained in her white paper. The EU will demand more concessions. There will have to be either a general election or a referendum on the final deal.
There is no way the house of commons will accept a hard Brexit - it might be better than a bad Brexit, but it won't be better than no Brexit. So anybody who wants a Brexit ought to get behind the Brexit May is trying to deliver!
The 'debate' such as it has been since the vote has lined up what will be lost against what will be gained. Boris says that what will be gained is a 'dream', Fox says easily done trade deals around the world, Mogg says cheap food clothing and footwear, Gove says making our own laws, all say their predictions are a hope and an aspiration. What will be lost is so vast it is hardly worth listing here, but the weirdest thing of all is that brexiters say the UK will achieve all those gains, and there will actually be no losses because a deal will be done and they need us more than we need them. A deal will be done in the context of no deal being better than a bad deal, and a cliff edge into the WTO? There are faults with systems everywhere, certainly there are quite sickening faults with politicians everywhere. However if there was a choice to be made again between the gains and losses of leaving, in detailed terms i can't believe that anybody would vote to say leaving is better. However a visceral, non expert, non logical, non intellectual, entitlement fuelled force remains in a lot of people. People who can't say why they hate foreigners, they just hate them, people who can't explain why a go it alone Britain would be any more than a oddity and a pimple on the edge of Europe, but assert it is a great country just because it is and they live there. Another vote would be reason verses emotion, and I am not sure that reason would be any more successful next time than last time.
There is no way the house of commons will accept a hard Brexit - it might be better than a bad Brexit, but it won't be better than no Brexit. So anybody who wants a Brexit ought to get behind the Brexit May is trying to deliver!
Exactly why the likes of Gove & Fox are holding their noses & backing chequers brexit (chexit?). Agree with those who are saying no brexit at all is back in the game
Mogg can go to Shoefayre, Primark and Aldi now if he is so bothered about cheap clothes, food and footwear!!!! I suspect he is more bothered about the 23m it will put in his pocket, but you can make your own minds up! Fox is a corrupt politician who should be out in disgrace after the stunt he pulled a few years back. Boris Johnson is corrupt and the best description of a git you can get!
The evidence that it will be a disaster is now overwhelming. Businesses, big and small, have really hammered home over the last few weeks the consequences on investment and jobs that any kind of Brexit will have. I believe it is this unrelenting message from business that has prompted her to stand up to the Brexit extremists and propose the soft Brexit that is contained in her white paper. The EU will demand more concessions. There will have to be either a general election or a referendum on the final deal.
But the evidence that Brexit will be a disaster has pretty much always been there. Brexiteers don't appear to be motivated by arguments of economic logic and reason and are driven by their belief that restoring British sovereignty is worth the economic risk.
I highly doubt any of the recent events will have changed the polls much and your belief that Brexit is now less likely to happen is, I fear, very much wishful thinking. Brexit is still happening,it will still be a disaster.
The 'debate' such as it has been since the vote has lined up what will be lost against what will be gained. Boris says that what will be gained is a 'dream', Fox says easily done trade deals around the world, Mogg says cheap food clothing and footwear, Gove says making our own laws, all say their predictions are a hope and an aspiration. What will be lost is so vast it is hardly worth listing here, but the weirdest thing of all is that brexiters say the UK will achieve all those gains, and there will actually be no losses because a deal will be done and they need us more than we need them. A deal will be done in the context of no deal being better than a bad deal, and a cliff edge into the WTO? There are faults with systems everywhere, certainly there are quite sickening faults with politicians everywhere. However if there was a choice to be made again between the gains and losses of leaving, in detailed terms i can't believe that anybody would vote to say leaving is better. However a visceral, non expert, non logical, non intellectual, entitlement fuelled force remains in a lot of people. People who can't say why they hate foreigners, they just hate them, people who can't explain why a go it alone Britain would be any more than a oddity and a pimple on the edge of Europe, but assert it is a great country just because it is and they live there. Another vote would be reason verses emotion, and I am not sure that reason would be any more successful next time than last time.
I agree almost entirely with the argument that there is every chance that the result of a further "In v Out" referendum is not likely to show marked changes in the votes that individuals cast.
I see only limited evidence of buyer's remorse, on either side of the debate, and none of us like people (ignorant of the fact that we are always right, no matter the context) telling us we were wrong, either due to stupidity or treacherous motives. The wound of division is too recent and too raw.
The big question that would determine the big (referendum) question is how, or even whether, those who did not vote before would vote the next time.
If Parliament decided on a popular vote on whatever deal is agreed, however, it is possible to see changes in the percentages of voters apparently in favour of Brexit, as defined by T May (but I don't think, necessarily, that all Remain voters would support a deal, if they believed it was not good enough).
Not that I believe that the public will be asked the question to be honest.
It's very easy to be wise after the event. But I just wish that, before she even selected her first Cabinet, she produced a document that explained what her version of Brexit was. With references to the Customs Union, Single Market Irish border, EU citizens' rights, etc. Then - and only then - she could select her Cabinet on the basis that everyone in it signs up to the version.
We should have known two years ago what "version" of Brexit our Government was heading towards. And, even though I would always prefer the remain-and-reform position, if we had a published, agreed, Government-endorsed position that we knew the Cabinet was behind and we knew that hurdles against it would be systematically removed, then I can see that being a "bring the country together" position.
Even if some Tory backbench MPs were against it, it would have been a sensible position. Because some opposition MPs would have been for it.
But because it's been left too late, some people have used the tension it's caused to further their own agendas. And because some people within the Cabinet have jumped, some people outside the Cabinet have piped up. Those with the weakest political position and the most questionable mandate are now driving their own agendas.
The fact is that the Chequers agreement did the two things it needed to. It delivers Brexit (where Brexit means the UK leaving the EU) and it mitigated against the worst damage a more severe version of Brexit would do. But, as it's taken too long to reach the position, it's given the opportunity to those in both main parties who want a worse version to ramp up the rhetoric.
The Chequers agreement *is* Brexit. There may be those who still want to promulgate and demand a worse version. But we haven't established yet what version of Brexit the likes of Rees Mogg, Johnson, Davis and Farage want, in detail. Why is the detail missing? Because it can be forensically examined, challenged, and shown up for the folly it is. And the worst and most damaging deal possible is, of course, no deal. Who in their right mind would want that? (And concentrate on the "in their right mind", before answering).
It's in our national interest to remain the EU, as a full member of the top-table, with all our hard-won rebates, opt-outs and vetoes. Brexit is going to be very painful and extremely damaging to anyone other than a thin sector of society. Those with significant assets and the opportunity to exploit tax advantages from abroad, while outside the grasp of the EU. People like Rees Mogg, Johnson, Davis and Farage.
The time has come, in my view, to finalise the deal then put it to the people. With a simple question. Here's the deal - do we take it and leave, or scrap the deal and remain? We will have enough knowledge to make a considered determination. And because it will be made on the basis of fact and not scaremongering, I think the decision - whatever it is - will be trusted and will bring most of the country closer together. And I also think that anyone not happy with giving people the chance to make a considered, fact-based decision would have to explain why they don't trust the democratic process. But I am sure there's no-one that really thinks that.
Some people who voted Leave do not like the Chequers agreement. They have their own reasons - some sensible, some unicorn-flavoured. But the fact remains that some on the Leave side will feel that the chosen option does not deliver them the solution they think they voted to achieve.
So, if we are to be delivered of the solution the Government has decided and which the Cabinet (as it is today) is unanimously agreed on, without another referendum (I'm avoiding the phrase "second referendum", simply because it asks a different question - it's a vote on the deal, not a vote on whether we leave) we will end up with an imbalance. 65.64 million British people will be removed from the EU by the votes of fewer than 17.4 million people, in a referendum that was based on guesses, lies, inaccurate information and electoral fraud.
A referendum on the deal puts the issue to bed, finally. It will be based on facts, with the full deal published, available and understood. And, once the result is announced - and only then - the country can be brought together and work towards the end for which we have voted. In or out.
Some people who voted Leave do not like the Chequers agreement. They have their own reasons - some sensible, some unicorn-flavoured. But the fact remains that some on the Leave side will feel that the chosen option does not deliver them the solution they think they voted to achieve.
So, if we are to be delivered of the solution the Government has decided and which the Cabinet (as it is today) is unanimously agreed on, without another referendum (I'm avoiding the phrase "second referendum", simply because it asks a different question - it's a vote on the deal, not a vote on whether we leave) we will end up with an imbalance. 65.64 million British people will be removed from the EU by the votes of fewer than 17.4 million people, in a referendum that was based on guesses, lies, inaccurate information and electoral fraud.
A referendum on the deal puts the issue to bed, finally. It will be based on facts, with the full deal published, available and understood. And, once the result is announced - and only then - the country can be brought together and work towards the end for which we have voted. In or out.
The evidence that it will be a disaster is now overwhelming. Businesses, big and small, have really hammered home over the last few weeks the consequences on investment and jobs that any kind of Brexit will have. I believe it is this unrelenting message from business that has prompted her to stand up to the Brexit extremists and propose the soft Brexit that is contained in her white paper. The EU will demand more concessions. There will have to be either a general election or a referendum on the final deal.
But the evidence that Brexit will be a disaster has pretty much always been there. Brexiteers don't appear to be motivated by arguments of economic logic and reason and are driven by their belief that restoring British sovereignty is worth the economic risk.
I highly doubt any of the recent events will have changed the polls much and your belief that Brexit is now less likely to happen is, I fear, very much wishful thinking. Brexit is still happening,it will still be a disaster.
Yes, the evidence has always been there. But a lot of it was dismissed as Project fear. That is no longer working. But, apart from the growing evidence, the thing I think is beginning to have a real impact, is the unremitting and almost unanimous voice of businesses, big and small, who see very clearly the impending disaster that Brexit is.
The evidence that it will be a disaster is now overwhelming. Businesses, big and small, have really hammered home over the last few weeks the consequences on investment and jobs that any kind of Brexit will have. I believe it is this unrelenting message from business that has prompted her to stand up to the Brexit extremists and propose the soft Brexit that is contained in her white paper. The EU will demand more concessions. There will have to be either a general election or a referendum on the final deal.
I like this post but fear there is a large amount of wishful thinking. I’m certain that the Tories can’t deliver a brexit that fits with both sides of their party. Their situation has reach tipping point. What they won’t do is call an election. At this juncture they are as @seriously_red has posted, bleeding support. They will not call an election they could lose. Neither potential ruling parties will risk putting anything to the electorate in the form of a referendum. I don’t believe there is an appetite for either May or whoever replaces her or Corbyn to go against the original vote. Far too many view that (erroneously) as anti democratic. In any case I can’t see it happening. I think what will happen is that we will reach a point where after the 27 have taken stock of what is on offer and make adjustments we will reach a point where Brexit is BINO with some concessions by the EU to make it look like Brexit is Brexit.
Some people who voted Leave do not like the Chequers agreement. They have their own reasons - some sensible, some unicorn-flavoured. But the fact remains that some on the Leave side will feel that the chosen option does not deliver them the solution they think they voted to achieve.
So, if we are to be delivered of the solution the Government has decided and which the Cabinet (as it is today) is unanimously agreed on, without another referendum (I'm avoiding the phrase "second referendum", simply because it asks a different question - it's a vote on the deal, not a vote on whether we leave) we will end up with an imbalance. 65.64 million British people will be removed from the EU by the votes of fewer than 17.4 million people, in a referendum that was based on guesses, lies, inaccurate information and electoral fraud.
A referendum on the deal puts the issue to bed, finally. It will be based on facts, with the full deal published, available and understood. And, once the result is announced - and only then - the country can be brought together and work towards the end for which we have voted. In or out.
You would have thought that all the whinging, 'this isn't what I voted for' Brexiters would welcome another referendum to clarify and be pushing for it. Unless they are scared of the outcome that is! If they are scared of the outcome, they should get behind May's deal and shut up!
The Chequers agreement or 'May's Deal' is the UKdisagreeing with itself. Sort of. After two years. It is not what brexit will be, I suspect nowhere near what brexit will be. It is the UK reaching the beginning of the beginning. After two years. From this it won't be the EU acting like children instead of behaving like grown ups, it will be the EU getting first sight of something and beginning to measure it against their own rules. The sight of this much heralded white paper being slung around and distributed at the last minute last Thursday in the House of Commons, just as Rabb was about to talk about it, is all the EU and the rest of the world needs to know about just how miserably f*cked up this country is at the moment. Traditional British values meets traditional British Monty Python, and brings forth the ugliest love child ever. Never again can the UK mock Italian or any other governments for being a basket case.
The evidence that it will be a disaster is now overwhelming. Businesses, big and small, have really hammered home over the last few weeks the consequences on investment and jobs that any kind of Brexit will have. I believe it is this unrelenting message from business that has prompted her to stand up to the Brexit extremists and propose the soft Brexit that is contained in her white paper. The EU will demand more concessions. There will have to be either a general election or a referendum on the final deal.
But the evidence that Brexit will be a disaster has pretty much always been there. Brexiteers don't appear to be motivated by arguments of economic logic and reason and are driven by their belief that restoring British sovereignty is worth the economic risk.
I highly doubt any of the recent events will have changed the polls much and your belief that Brexit is now less likely to happen is, I fear, very much wishful thinking. Brexit is still happening,it will still be a disaster.
Yes, the evidence has always been there. But a lot of it was dismissed as Project fear. That is no longer working. But, apart from the growing evidence, the thing I think is beginning to have a real impact, is the unremitting and almost unanimous voice of businesses, big and small, who see very clearly the impending disaster that Brexit is.
But is it actually having an impact? Where is the evidence that it is?
It might be more emphatically making the point to you and I, but we were already convinced, I don't think it's changing many leavers minds though and I haven't seen an option poll that suggests otherwise.
I have and Brexit is a bit like getting divorced. You don't stay married because the alternative might be tough going & costly. You know that there will be pain as you leave but you hope that once you get through that then over time you will be able to make a go of it.
The evidence that it will be a disaster is now overwhelming. Businesses, big and small, have really hammered home over the last few weeks the consequences on investment and jobs that any kind of Brexit will have. I believe it is this unrelenting message from business that has prompted her to stand up to the Brexit extremists and propose the soft Brexit that is contained in her white paper. The EU will demand more concessions. There will have to be either a general election or a referendum on the final deal.
But the evidence that Brexit will be a disaster has pretty much always been there. Brexiteers don't appear to be motivated by arguments of economic logic and reason and are driven by their belief that restoring British sovereignty is worth the economic risk.
I highly doubt any of the recent events will have changed the polls much and your belief that Brexit is now less likely to happen is, I fear, very much wishful thinking. Brexit is still happening,it will still be a disaster.
Yes, the evidence has always been there. But a lot of it was dismissed as Project fear. That is no longer working. But, apart from the growing evidence, the thing I think is beginning to have a real impact, is the unremitting and almost unanimous voice of businesses, big and small, who see very clearly the impending disaster that Brexit is.
But is it actually having an impact? Where is the evidence that it is?
It might be more emphatically making the point to you and I, but we were already convinced, I don't think it's changing many leavers minds though and I haven't seen an option poll that suggests otherwise.
The evidence is May's white paper.
I was referring to the politicians who are responsible for delivering Brexit. I think the lobbying by business groups has intensified over the last month and that is beginning to impact those politicians...the sane ones. There are still some lunatics in the Tory party who will quite happily deliver the country into an Armageddon if it means getting blue passports.
I have and Brexit is a bit like getting divorced. You don't stay married because the alternative might be tough going & costly. You know that there will be pain as you leave but you hope that once you get through that then over time you will be able to make a go of it.
Ok, that has reassured me, let's risk our entire economy on that idea
I have and Brexit is a bit like getting divorced. You don't stay married because the alternative might be tough going & costly. You know that there will be pain as you leave but you hope that once you get through that then over time you will be able to make a go of it.
I never thought I'd get an analogy less apt than leaving a golf club until I read the above.
I have and Brexit is a bit like getting divorced. You don't stay married because the alternative might be tough going & costly. You know that there will be pain as you leave but you hope that once you get through that then over time you will be able to make a go of it.
It is if the party that wants to leave thinks it is entitled to contiued sexual favours after they leave!
I have and Brexit is a bit like getting divorced. You don't stay married because the alternative might be tough going & costly. You know that there will be pain as you leave but you hope that once you get through that then over time you will be able to make a go of it.
Get divorced. But remember there is the legal disentanglement to sort out, what happens to the joint property, who has the kids, the dog, the cat, the visitation arrangements, who gets the paintings and who gets the Joan Armatrading records, who deals with the debt and joint finances, who informs the gas, electricity, the broadband, the water, the council tax, the electoral roll, the sentimental photographs and of course the Irish Border. The UK not only wants a divorce, but wants to avoid the disentanglement arrangements by bleating on about their partners intransigence, but the UK also wants their soon to be ex to have plastic surgery to change their features as the UK waves goodbye, and bleats again if their soon to be ex refuses to go under the knife. Have the divorce by all means, but remember it took two to tango in the romantic years, and it is two to untangle now.
I have and Brexit is a bit like getting divorced. You don't stay married because the alternative might be tough going & costly. You know that there will be pain as you leave but you hope that once you get through that then over time you will be able to make a go of it.
Yeah, you’re right, extricating a country from forty years of extraordinary complex international trade deals and setting up multiple replacements in a unclear regulatory and political framework is JUST like getting divorced from your missus.
I have and Brexit is a bit like getting divorced. You don't stay married because the alternative might be tough going & costly. You know that there will be pain as you leave but you hope that once you get through that then over time you will be able to make a go of it.
Are you recommending everyone gets divorced? I was just thinking it would be great.
I could live wherever I like - see my son whenever I want - sleep with whoever I want (including my wife) - spend my money on myself instead of my family - basically take back control of my life.
Comments
Boris says that what will be gained is a 'dream', Fox says easily done trade deals around the world, Mogg says cheap food clothing and footwear, Gove says making our own laws, all say their predictions are a hope and an aspiration.
What will be lost is so vast it is hardly worth listing here, but the weirdest thing of all is that brexiters say the UK will achieve all those gains, and there will actually be no losses because a deal will be done and they need us more than we need them.
A deal will be done in the context of no deal being better than a bad deal, and a cliff edge into the WTO?
There are faults with systems everywhere, certainly there are quite sickening faults with politicians everywhere.
However if there was a choice to be made again between the gains and losses of leaving, in detailed terms i can't believe that anybody would vote to say leaving is better.
However a visceral, non expert, non logical, non intellectual, entitlement fuelled force remains in a lot of people. People who can't say why they hate foreigners, they just hate them, people who can't explain why a go it alone Britain would be any more than a oddity and a pimple on the edge of Europe, but assert it is a great country just because it is and they live there.
Another vote would be reason verses emotion, and I am not sure that reason would be any more successful next time than last time.
I highly doubt any of the recent events will have changed the polls much and your belief that Brexit is now less likely to happen is, I fear, very much wishful thinking. Brexit is still happening,it will still be a disaster.
I see only limited evidence of buyer's remorse, on either side of the debate, and none of us like people (ignorant of the fact that we are always right, no matter the context) telling us we were wrong, either due to stupidity or treacherous motives. The wound of division is too recent and too raw.
The big question that would determine the big (referendum) question is how, or even whether, those who did not vote before would vote the next time.
If Parliament decided on a popular vote on whatever deal is agreed, however, it is possible to see changes in the percentages of voters apparently in favour of Brexit, as defined by T May (but I don't think, necessarily, that all Remain voters would support a deal, if they believed it was not good enough).
Not that I believe that the public will be asked the question to be honest.
So, if we are to be delivered of the solution the Government has decided and which the Cabinet (as it is today) is unanimously agreed on, without another referendum (I'm avoiding the phrase "second referendum", simply because it asks a different question - it's a vote on the deal, not a vote on whether we leave) we will end up with an imbalance. 65.64 million British people will be removed from the EU by the votes of fewer than 17.4 million people, in a referendum that was based on guesses, lies, inaccurate information and electoral fraud.
A referendum on the deal puts the issue to bed, finally. It will be based on facts, with the full deal published, available and understood. And, once the result is announced - and only then - the country can be brought together and work towards the end for which we have voted. In or out.
disagreeing with itself.Sort of.
After two years.
It is not what brexit will be, I suspect nowhere near what brexit will be.
It is the UK reaching the beginning of the beginning.
After two years.
From this it won't be the EU acting like children instead of behaving like grown ups, it will be the EU getting first sight of something and beginning to measure it against their own rules.
The sight of this much heralded white paper being slung around and distributed at the last minute last Thursday in the House of Commons, just as Rabb was about to talk about it, is all the EU and the rest of the world needs to know about just how miserably f*cked up this country is at the moment.
Traditional British values meets traditional British Monty Python, and brings forth the ugliest love child ever. Never again can the UK mock Italian or any other governments for being a basket case.
It might be more emphatically making the point to you and I, but we were already convinced, I don't think it's changing many leavers minds though and I haven't seen an option poll that suggests otherwise.
I have and Brexit is a bit like getting divorced. You don't stay married because the alternative might be tough going & costly. You know that there will be pain as you leave but you hope that once you get through that then over time you will be able to make a go of it.
I was referring to the politicians who are responsible for delivering Brexit. I think the lobbying by business groups has intensified over the last month and that is beginning to impact those politicians...the sane ones. There are still some lunatics in the Tory party who will quite happily deliver the country into an Armageddon if it means getting blue passports.
The UK not only wants a divorce, but wants to avoid the disentanglement arrangements by bleating on about their partners intransigence, but the UK also wants their soon to be ex to have plastic surgery to change their features as the UK waves goodbye, and bleats again if their soon to be ex refuses to go under the knife.
Have the divorce by all means, but remember it took two to tango in the romantic years, and it is two to untangle now.
Utterly moronic.
https://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44840154
Meanwhile it's fairly clear who The Telegraph will be backing in the leadership contest around the corner...
I could live wherever I like - see my son whenever I want - sleep with whoever I want (including my wife) - spend my money on myself instead of my family - basically take back control of my life.
What could possibly go wrong?