The age difference between leave and remain voters is fascinating and definitely relevant. It seems almost impossible to find people under 40 or at least 30 who voted Leave, unless they are too embarrassed to admit it. Anyone know any leave voters under 30 or 40?
Yes lots. It has been a classic response from Remainers since the referendum that they do not know anybody who voted leave. If you went outside the M25 at any point , and went further north, you might ask the question the other way round.
We'll keep it between ourselves, but I am reasonably sure that both Scotland and Northern Ireland are outside the M25 and also further north. Statistically speaking, there is a greater chance of not knowingly knowing people that voted Leave...
For what it's worth, I do know at least one person who voted leave (from work).
A major problem was we got ridiculous promises and threats from both sides of the debate. Now the Brexiters have the affront to say we all knew we were voting to leave the Customs Union because the remainers told us that would happen. So during the referendum campaigning we were not supposed to believe them and after we are! You couldn't make up how weak that argument is!
It is a complete myth that there were "rediculous promises and threats from both sides of the debate". Those only came from the Leave side. The last 2 years have demonstrated that all the warnings of the dire consequences of Brexit from the Remain side have proven to be spot on.
Deary me. 10 months to go.... worth reading the verbatim comments from both sides. When I read the No 10 spokesman, I hear the voice of my brother, a rampant, irrational Brexiteer. A cardinal rule of good negotiation is to at least attempt to understand the viewpoint and perspective of the other side. We seem to be failing this basic principle.
Another way of reading this is that the EU is not prepared to make any concession at all. Some of us have argued they would do this from the start and that the whole 'negotiation' is a cover for our Remainer led Government , politicians and civil servants alike, to show us stupid Leavers that staying in the EU is the only option-which of course is the EU position as well.
Our political class, both parties, is so weak and ineffectual thay they do not have the balls to tell the majority outright that they will not carry out the referendum result. Instead we have this endless charade of indecision and fence-sitting all round. If they were honest they would follow their beliefs, declare the referendum result invalid and then deal with the consequences of our democracy being a dead letter. Instead we have this ridiculous process of delay and uncertainty which is the worst of all worlds.
The EU have conceded a transition period of just under two years. However the choices are still the same: Canada FTA or EEA Single Market and Customs Union. There is no cherry picking nor was that possibility ever available. Only in the minds of some leavers.
The fact is that the government is paralysed and unable to choose. For there is no mandate and no majority to leaving everything. So the Tories are stuck, waiting for the House of Lords and/or the EU27 to rescue them.
And Labour are simply playing a waiting game. They don't oppose the referendum as that would be perceived as anti-democratic. They approve of being in a Customs Union and have their own internal debate about the Single Market.
People who believe that the least change possible will keep our country ticking over may be happy to wait another 12 months for answers to emerge. As posted before, once we leave the EU, there will be a simple binary option in front of us: Norway or Canada. It's my belief that the country will remain in the Single Market but it's unclear what political mechanism will make that happen.
Of course the government may attempt to defer that choice by extending the transition period. But will the EU agree?
In the meantime, Q1 growth was next to zero and Q2 numbers come out mid August. If Q2 numbers are poor then year on year growth will sink to 1%. And that in turn will start to hurt.
At the same time people will be aware of the emerging NHS expenditure debate where it's estimated an additional two grand per year per household is needed. Much of the NHS expenditure is devoted to older people but there is no £350M per week available.
A major problem was we got ridiculous promises and threats from both sides of the debate. Now the Brexiters have the affront to say we all knew we were voting to leave the Customs Union because the remainers told us that would happen. So during the referendum campaigning we were not supposed to believe them and after we are! You couldn't make up how weak that argument is!
It is a complete myth that there were "rediculous promises and threats from both sides of the debate". Those only came from the Leave side. The last 2 years have demonstrated that all the warnings of the dire consequences of Brexit from the Remain side have proven to be spot on.
I would agree that leave won the ridiculous promise battle, but there were exagerations on the remain side in terms the speed of our collapse and the real issue was always for me that the EU isn't perfect, but we are much better being in it than out of it. And from within we can always make it better.
When we got how great the EU was and how it has made us better off. A lot of poor people didn't get that message loud and clear! But leaving the EU will drag us down, i'll give you that, just not as quickly as we were told!
Good article that and well said Caroline Lucas. It's interesting that at previous general elections people have stated that they wouldn't vote Green as it's a single issue party, yet they are displaying more nous on the most important issue of the day than all of the other parties combined.
Deary me. 10 months to go.... worth reading the verbatim comments from both sides. When I read the No 10 spokesman, I hear the voice of my brother, a rampant, irrational Brexiteer. A cardinal rule of good negotiation is to at least attempt to understand the viewpoint and perspective of the other side. We seem to be failing this basic principle.
Another way of reading this is that the EU is not prepared to make any concession at all. Some of us have argued they would do this from the start and that the whole 'negotiation' is a cover for our Remainer led Government , politicians and civil servants alike, to show us stupid Leavers that staying in the EU is the only option-which of course is the EU position as well.
Our political class, both parties, is so weak and ineffectual thay they do not have the balls to tell the majority outright that they will not carry out the referendum result. Instead we have this endless charade of indecision and fence-sitting all round. If they were honest they would follow their beliefs, declare the referendum result invalid and then deal with the consequences of our democracy being a dead letter. Instead we have this ridiculous process of delay and uncertainty which is the worst of all worlds.
Why on earth should the EU make concessions? The job of the EU is looking after members of the EU, not looking after non-members or former members. As can be seen from the professionalism, clear-headedness, determination and eloquence they bring to the negotiations, they do that very well. What a pity that people didn't realise they'd be better off sitting inside the tent spitting-out than sitting outside spitting-in.
The job of the EU is surely to make a deal which offers something to both sides-or do you agree with me that there is no real negotiation process at all?
The job of the EU is to look after its members. If they make a deal it has to be in the interest of their members. If that can include finding ways of collaborating or cooperating for the good of all, then that's a bonus. If, however, it is better for their members to take a harder more selfish approach then so be it. That is one of the benefits that being in a large grouping brings - you have the power to call the shots! If you choose to operate outside that group, it's no use bleating because they make decisions that aren't in your interest - it was your choice not to be a part of it.
My point is exactly that, there is no negotiation because the interest of the EU are 1. Keep UK in the EU becasue they need the money and 2. Prevent anybody else leaving by making no concessions. A normal negotiation, as Prague points out above, involves seeing the others point of view and making a deal. The EU has no interest in doing that. Hence no deal.
1. They don't need the money. 2. Others can vote to leave and trigger article 50 as the UK has done.
The EU can negotiate according to it's rules. Leavers voted to separate from an entity because of what it is, they can't then expect that entity to become what it isn't.
A normal negotiation involves an acknowledgement of who you are negotiating with.
The EU has been pretty tolerant of the UK shambles, and devoted resources to try to get the process over and done with. The problem is that the EU is not keen on UK cherry picking when it only works one way.
If you think they do not need the money you are not paying any attention to their tortured budget discussions
Deary me. 10 months to go.... worth reading the verbatim comments from both sides. When I read the No 10 spokesman, I hear the voice of my brother, a rampant, irrational Brexiteer. A cardinal rule of good negotiation is to at least attempt to understand the viewpoint and perspective of the other side. We seem to be failing this basic principle.
Another way of reading this is that the EU is not prepared to make any concession at all. Some of us have argued they would do this from the start and that the whole 'negotiation' is a cover for our Remainer led Government , politicians and civil servants alike, to show us stupid Leavers that staying in the EU is the only option-which of course is the EU position as well.
Our political class, both parties, is so weak and ineffectual thay they do not have the balls to tell the majority outright that they will not carry out the referendum result. Instead we have this endless charade of indecision and fence-sitting all round. If they were honest they would follow their beliefs, declare the referendum result invalid and then deal with the consequences of our democracy being a dead letter. Instead we have this ridiculous process of delay and uncertainty which is the worst of all worlds.
Why on earth should the EU make concessions? The job of the EU is looking after members of the EU, not looking after non-members or former members. As can be seen from the professionalism, clear-headedness, determination and eloquence they bring to the negotiations, they do that very well. What a pity that people didn't realise they'd be better off sitting inside the tent spitting-out than sitting outside spitting-in.
The job of the EU is surely to make a deal which offers something to both sides-or do you agree with me that there is no real negotiation process at all?
The job of the EU is to look after its members. If they make a deal it has to be in the interest of their members. If that can include finding ways of collaborating or cooperating for the good of all, then that's a bonus. If, however, it is better for their members to take a harder more selfish approach then so be it. That is one of the benefits that being in a large grouping brings - you have the power to call the shots! If you choose to operate outside that group, it's no use bleating because they make decisions that aren't in your interest - it was your choice not to be a part of it.
My point is exactly that, there is no negotiation because the interest of the EU are 1. Keep UK in the EU becasue they need the money and 2. Prevent anybody else leaving by making no concessions. A normal negotiation, as Prague points out above, involves seeing the others point of view and making a deal. The EU has no interest in doing that. Hence no deal.
Perhaps then, the British government should have recognised the EU's position from the start and gone in with the approach of asking how the two could work together best in the future, instead of going in with all the rhetorical bluster of 'Brexit means Brexit' without having the first clue what it meant. Perhaps though, if they shown that much foresight from the off, we'd never have been in this farcical position in the first place. It beggars belief that anyone would seek to blame the EU for the mess we're in, when all they are doing is a bloody good job of representing their members.
I blame only the British Government led by Remainers who still behave as if the EU will compromise. Out is out. The EU has always said that, our Government pretends not to believe it.
The age difference between leave and remain voters is fascinating and definitely relevant. It seems almost impossible to find people under 40 or at least 30 who voted Leave, unless they are too embarrassed to admit it. Anyone know any leave voters under 30 or 40?
Yes lots. It has been a classic response from Remainers since the referendum that they do not know anybody who voted leave. If you went outside the M25 at any point , and went further north, you might ask the question the other way round.
Ah good. Won't be any problem then if there was a potential vote to rejoin then in say 10 years?
I doubt there will be anything left to rejoin in ten years.
You don't have to be bloody clever or even just ordinarily clever to work it out (not that I'm suggesting that Rinse8 isn't).
Would they be the older and less educated people who have spent their lives working and paying taxes to pay for the education of young better educated people?
Obviously they should be grateful they were even allowed to vote.
None of you 'young' Remainers prepared to respond to this, funny eh.
A major problem was we got ridiculous promises and threats from both sides of the debate. Now the Brexiters have the affront to say we all knew we were voting to leave the Customs Union because the remainers told us that would happen. So during the referendum campaigning we were not supposed to believe them and after we are! You couldn't make up how weak that argument is!
It is a complete myth that there were "rediculous promises and threats from both sides of the debate". Those only came from the Leave side. The last 2 years have demonstrated that all the warnings of the dire consequences of Brexit from the Remain side have proven to be spot on.
Rediculous... Lol always happens when you pick on someone else's grammar.
You don't have to be bloody clever or even just ordinarily clever to work it out (not that I'm suggesting that Rinse8 isn't).
Would they be the older and less educated people who have spent their lives working and paying taxes to pay for the education of young better educated people?
Obviously they should be grateful they were even allowed to vote.
None of you 'young' Remainers prepared to respond to this, funny eh.
Southbank, if you think there's anyone young one here, you've seriously misjudged Charlton Life.
The age difference between leave and remain voters is fascinating and definitely relevant. It seems almost impossible to find people under 40 or at least 30 who voted Leave, unless they are too embarrassed to admit it. Anyone know any leave voters under 30 or 40?
Yes lots. It has been a classic response from Remainers since the referendum that they do not know anybody who voted leave. If you went outside the M25 at any point , and went further north, you might ask the question the other way round.
Ah good. Won't be any problem then if there was a potential vote to rejoin then in say 10 years?
I doubt there will be anything left to rejoin in ten years.
Can you explain why you think the EU won't exist in ten years? It seems an extremely fantastical idea for anyone living in Europe -despite its organisational flaws it is not going anywhere, with or without the UK.
Deary me. 10 months to go.... worth reading the verbatim comments from both sides. When I read the No 10 spokesman, I hear the voice of my brother, a rampant, irrational Brexiteer. A cardinal rule of good negotiation is to at least attempt to understand the viewpoint and perspective of the other side. We seem to be failing this basic principle.
Another way of reading this is that the EU is not prepared to make any concession at all. Some of us have argued they would do this from the start and that the whole 'negotiation' is a cover for our Remainer led Government , politicians and civil servants alike, to show us stupid Leavers that staying in the EU is the only option-which of course is the EU position as well.
Our political class, both parties, is so weak and ineffectual thay they do not have the balls to tell the majority outright that they will not carry out the referendum result. Instead we have this endless charade of indecision and fence-sitting all round. If they were honest they would follow their beliefs, declare the referendum result invalid and then deal with the consequences of our democracy being a dead letter. Instead we have this ridiculous process of delay and uncertainty which is the worst of all worlds.
Why on earth should the EU make concessions? The job of the EU is looking after members of the EU, not looking after non-members or former members. As can be seen from the professionalism, clear-headedness, determination and eloquence they bring to the negotiations, they do that very well. What a pity that people didn't realise they'd be better off sitting inside the tent spitting-out than sitting outside spitting-in.
The job of the EU is surely to make a deal which offers something to both sides-or do you agree with me that there is no real negotiation process at all?
The job of the EU is to look after its members. If they make a deal it has to be in the interest of their members. If that can include finding ways of collaborating or cooperating for the good of all, then that's a bonus. If, however, it is better for their members to take a harder more selfish approach then so be it. That is one of the benefits that being in a large grouping brings - you have the power to call the shots! If you choose to operate outside that group, it's no use bleating because they make decisions that aren't in your interest - it was your choice not to be a part of it.
My point is exactly that, there is no negotiation because the interest of the EU are 1. Keep UK in the EU becasue they need the money and 2. Prevent anybody else leaving by making no concessions. A normal negotiation, as Prague points out above, involves seeing the others point of view and making a deal. The EU has no interest in doing that. Hence no deal.
Perhaps then, the British government should have recognised the EU's position from the start and gone in with the approach of asking how the two could work together best in the future, instead of going in with all the rhetorical bluster of 'Brexit means Brexit' without having the first clue what it meant. Perhaps though, if they shown that much foresight from the off, we'd never have been in this farcical position in the first place. It beggars belief that anyone would seek to blame the EU for the mess we're in, when all they are doing is a bloody good job of representing their members.
I blame only the British Government led by Remainers who still behave as if the EU will compromise. Out is out. The EU has always said that, our Government pretends not to believe it.
They don't pretend anything, they are desperately hoping the EU will change their mind, as every projection by every qualified expert and economist shows us up shit creek if we have a hard brexit, but idiots like you mean no brexit isn't an option. So May and Co are hoping for an impossible compromise to keep them in power.
If a hard brexit was going to end well it would have happened by now.
If you really think brexit will work then find the facts to back that up. While all you have is wishful thinking and the outright lies of Rees-Mogg and Co to back you up then you'll continue to be disdained on here. I would suggest that if those facts exist the government would have been shouting them from the roof tops, as would you. Instead you and they just keep whinging about the mean EU, ridiculous conspiracy theories and how it'd all be OK if people on football forums would just stop talking the country down.
Muttley the remainers claim was that we would be up shit creek when we LEAVE. We are still in but already feeling the effects through lack of growth and investment.
You don't have to be bloody clever or even just ordinarily clever to work it out (not that I'm suggesting that Rinse8 isn't).
Would they be the older and less educated people who have spent their lives working and paying taxes to pay for the education of young better educated people?
Obviously they should be grateful they were even allowed to vote.
None of you 'young' Remainers prepared to respond to this, funny eh.
I read this earlier today and thought "don't rip into Southy, he/she is trying their best". But if you are asking for it...
...quite apart from you inventing an argument that does not exist in the post from @Stig . Wouldn't it be better to ask the oldies on here how they feel about educating their children and grandchildren. As a 50+ tax payer I am really happy that my taxes go on education. Maybe we will get a better form of government and politician if people are better educated and I welcome the opportunity for more working class kids to have the opportunity to reach their aspirations (unlikely under the Tories, I know). Finally I am hoping that my investment in education will enable somebody to discover cures for everything and perhaps develop some kind of cheap, lightweight exoskeleton so that I can run around and play football into my 90s.
Deary me. 10 months to go.... worth reading the verbatim comments from both sides. When I read the No 10 spokesman, I hear the voice of my brother, a rampant, irrational Brexiteer. A cardinal rule of good negotiation is to at least attempt to understand the viewpoint and perspective of the other side. We seem to be failing this basic principle.
Another way of reading this is that the EU is not prepared to make any concession at all. Some of us have argued they would do this from the start and that the whole 'negotiation' is a cover for our Remainer led Government , politicians and civil servants alike, to show us stupid Leavers that staying in the EU is the only option-which of course is the EU position as well.
Our political class, both parties, is so weak and ineffectual thay they do not have the balls to tell the majority outright that they will not carry out the referendum result. Instead we have this endless charade of indecision and fence-sitting all round. If they were honest they would follow their beliefs, declare the referendum result invalid and then deal with the consequences of our democracy being a dead letter. Instead we have this ridiculous process of delay and uncertainty which is the worst of all worlds.
Why on earth should the EU make concessions? The job of the EU is looking after members of the EU, not looking after non-members or former members. As can be seen from the professionalism, clear-headedness, determination and eloquence they bring to the negotiations, they do that very well. What a pity that people didn't realise they'd be better off sitting inside the tent spitting-out than sitting outside spitting-in.
The job of the EU is surely to make a deal which offers something to both sides-or do you agree with me that there is no real negotiation process at all?
The job of the EU is to look after its members. If they make a deal it has to be in the interest of their members. If that can include finding ways of collaborating or cooperating for the good of all, then that's a bonus. If, however, it is better for their members to take a harder more selfish approach then so be it. That is one of the benefits that being in a large grouping brings - you have the power to call the shots! If you choose to operate outside that group, it's no use bleating because they make decisions that aren't in your interest - it was your choice not to be a part of it.
My point is exactly that, there is no negotiation because the interest of the EU are 1. Keep UK in the EU becasue they need the money and 2. Prevent anybody else leaving by making no concessions. A normal negotiation, as Prague points out above, involves seeing the others point of view and making a deal. The EU has no interest in doing that. Hence no deal.
Perhaps then, the British government should have recognised the EU's position from the start and gone in with the approach of asking how the two could work together best in the future, instead of going in with all the rhetorical bluster of 'Brexit means Brexit' without having the first clue what it meant. Perhaps though, if they shown that much foresight from the off, we'd never have been in this farcical position in the first place. It beggars belief that anyone would seek to blame the EU for the mess we're in, when all they are doing is a bloody good job of representing their members.
I blame only the British Government led by Remainers who still behave as if the EU will compromise. Out is out. The EU has always said that, our Government pretends not to believe it.
They don't pretend anything, they are desperately hoping the EU will change their mind, as every projection by every qualified expert and economist shows us up shit creek if we have a hard brexit, but idiots like you mean no brexit isn't an option. So May and Co are hoping for an impossible compromise to keep them in power.
If a hard brexit was going to end well it would have happened by now.
If you really think brexit will work then find the facts to back that up. While all you have is wishful thinking and the outright lies of Rees-Mogg and Co to back you up then you'll continue to be disdained on here. I would suggest that if those facts exist the government would have been shouting them from the roof tops, as would you. Instead you and they just keep whinging about the mean EU, ridiculous conspiracy theories and how it'd all be OK if people on football forums would just stop talking the country down.
There are no 'facts' to prove what will happen in the future. The main 'facts' are that right now we have a Government that is not prepared to leave the EU, and is creating constant uncertainty for everybody while it looks for an impossible deal with the EU. Nobody wins from this.
Deary me. 10 months to go.... worth reading the verbatim comments from both sides. When I read the No 10 spokesman, I hear the voice of my brother, a rampant, irrational Brexiteer. A cardinal rule of good negotiation is to at least attempt to understand the viewpoint and perspective of the other side. We seem to be failing this basic principle.
Another way of reading this is that the EU is not prepared to make any concession at all. Some of us have argued they would do this from the start and that the whole 'negotiation' is a cover for our Remainer led Government , politicians and civil servants alike, to show us stupid Leavers that staying in the EU is the only option-which of course is the EU position as well.
Our political class, both parties, is so weak and ineffectual thay they do not have the balls to tell the majority outright that they will not carry out the referendum result. Instead we have this endless charade of indecision and fence-sitting all round. If they were honest they would follow their beliefs, declare the referendum result invalid and then deal with the consequences of our democracy being a dead letter. Instead we have this ridiculous process of delay and uncertainty which is the worst of all worlds.
Why on earth should the EU make concessions? The job of the EU is looking after members of the EU, not looking after non-members or former members. As can be seen from the professionalism, clear-headedness, determination and eloquence they bring to the negotiations, they do that very well. What a pity that people didn't realise they'd be better off sitting inside the tent spitting-out than sitting outside spitting-in.
The job of the EU is surely to make a deal which offers something to both sides-or do you agree with me that there is no real negotiation process at all?
The job of the EU is to look after its members. If they make a deal it has to be in the interest of their members. If that can include finding ways of collaborating or cooperating for the good of all, then that's a bonus. If, however, it is better for their members to take a harder more selfish approach then so be it. That is one of the benefits that being in a large grouping brings - you have the power to call the shots! If you choose to operate outside that group, it's no use bleating because they make decisions that aren't in your interest - it was your choice not to be a part of it.
My point is exactly that, there is no negotiation because the interest of the EU are 1. Keep UK in the EU becasue they need the money and 2. Prevent anybody else leaving by making no concessions. A normal negotiation, as Prague points out above, involves seeing the others point of view and making a deal. The EU has no interest in doing that. Hence no deal.
Perhaps then, the British government should have recognised the EU's position from the start and gone in with the approach of asking how the two could work together best in the future, instead of going in with all the rhetorical bluster of 'Brexit means Brexit' without having the first clue what it meant. Perhaps though, if they shown that much foresight from the off, we'd never have been in this farcical position in the first place. It beggars belief that anyone would seek to blame the EU for the mess we're in, when all they are doing is a bloody good job of representing their members.
I blame only the British Government led by Remainers who still behave as if the EU will compromise. Out is out. The EU has always said that, our Government pretends not to believe it.
They don't pretend anything, they are desperately hoping the EU will change their mind, as every projection by every qualified expert and economist shows us up shit creek if we have a hard brexit, but idiots like you mean no brexit isn't an option. So May and Co are hoping for an impossible compromise to keep them in power.
If a hard brexit was going to end well it would have happened by now.
If you really think brexit will work then find the facts to back that up. While all you have is wishful thinking and the outright lies of Rees-Mogg and Co to back you up then you'll continue to be disdained on here. I would suggest that if those facts exist the government would have been shouting them from the roof tops, as would you. Instead you and they just keep whinging about the mean EU, ridiculous conspiracy theories and how it'd all be OK if people on football forums would just stop talking the country down.
There are no 'facts' to prove what will happen in the future. The main 'facts' are that right now we have a Government that is not prepared to leave the EU, and is creating constant uncertainty for everybody while it looks for an impossible deal with the EU. Nobody wins from this.
You have a difficulty then, dealing with the government and the remaining ten months until the brexit cliff edge. Nothing to do with remainers, it is your call.
Deary me. 10 months to go.... worth reading the verbatim comments from both sides. When I read the No 10 spokesman, I hear the voice of my brother, a rampant, irrational Brexiteer. A cardinal rule of good negotiation is to at least attempt to understand the viewpoint and perspective of the other side. We seem to be failing this basic principle.
Another way of reading this is that the EU is not prepared to make any concession at all. Some of us have argued they would do this from the start and that the whole 'negotiation' is a cover for our Remainer led Government , politicians and civil servants alike, to show us stupid Leavers that staying in the EU is the only option-which of course is the EU position as well.
Our political class, both parties, is so weak and ineffectual thay they do not have the balls to tell the majority outright that they will not carry out the referendum result. Instead we have this endless charade of indecision and fence-sitting all round. If they were honest they would follow their beliefs, declare the referendum result invalid and then deal with the consequences of our democracy being a dead letter. Instead we have this ridiculous process of delay and uncertainty which is the worst of all worlds.
Why on earth should the EU make concessions? The job of the EU is looking after members of the EU, not looking after non-members or former members. As can be seen from the professionalism, clear-headedness, determination and eloquence they bring to the negotiations, they do that very well. What a pity that people didn't realise they'd be better off sitting inside the tent spitting-out than sitting outside spitting-in.
The job of the EU is surely to make a deal which offers something to both sides-or do you agree with me that there is no real negotiation process at all?
The job of the EU is to look after its members. If they make a deal it has to be in the interest of their members. If that can include finding ways of collaborating or cooperating for the good of all, then that's a bonus. If, however, it is better for their members to take a harder more selfish approach then so be it. That is one of the benefits that being in a large grouping brings - you have the power to call the shots! If you choose to operate outside that group, it's no use bleating because they make decisions that aren't in your interest - it was your choice not to be a part of it.
My point is exactly that, there is no negotiation because the interest of the EU are 1. Keep UK in the EU becasue they need the money and 2. Prevent anybody else leaving by making no concessions. A normal negotiation, as Prague points out above, involves seeing the others point of view and making a deal. The EU has no interest in doing that. Hence no deal.
Perhaps then, the British government should have recognised the EU's position from the start and gone in with the approach of asking how the two could work together best in the future, instead of going in with all the rhetorical bluster of 'Brexit means Brexit' without having the first clue what it meant. Perhaps though, if they shown that much foresight from the off, we'd never have been in this farcical position in the first place. It beggars belief that anyone would seek to blame the EU for the mess we're in, when all they are doing is a bloody good job of representing their members.
I blame only the British Government led by Remainers who still behave as if the EU will compromise. Out is out. The EU has always said that, our Government pretends not to believe it.
They don't pretend anything, they are desperately hoping the EU will change their mind, as every projection by every qualified expert and economist shows us up shit creek if we have a hard brexit, but idiots like you mean no brexit isn't an option. So May and Co are hoping for an impossible compromise to keep them in power.
If a hard brexit was going to end well it would have happened by now.
If you really think brexit will work then find the facts to back that up. While all you have is wishful thinking and the outright lies of Rees-Mogg and Co to back you up then you'll continue to be disdained on here. I would suggest that if those facts exist the government would have been shouting them from the roof tops, as would you. Instead you and they just keep whinging about the mean EU, ridiculous conspiracy theories and how it'd all be OK if people on football forums would just stop talking the country down.
There are no 'facts' to prove what will happen in the future. The main 'facts' are that right now we have a Government that is not prepared to leave the EU, and is creating constant uncertainty for everybody while it looks for an impossible deal with the EU. Nobody wins from this.
And that's what was predicted before the vote, they we could win by voting leave, but you went and did it anyway because you refused to believe. And here we are two years later a d you won't take responsibility for your choice and instead try to blame everyone but yourself and fellow leave voters.
Deary me. 10 months to go.... worth reading the verbatim comments from both sides. When I read the No 10 spokesman, I hear the voice of my brother, a rampant, irrational Brexiteer. A cardinal rule of good negotiation is to at least attempt to understand the viewpoint and perspective of the other side. We seem to be failing this basic principle.
Another way of reading this is that the EU is not prepared to make any concession at all. Some of us have argued they would do this from the start and that the whole 'negotiation' is a cover for our Remainer led Government , politicians and civil servants alike, to show us stupid Leavers that staying in the EU is the only option-which of course is the EU position as well.
Our political class, both parties, is so weak and ineffectual thay they do not have the balls to tell the majority outright that they will not carry out the referendum result. Instead we have this endless charade of indecision and fence-sitting all round. If they were honest they would follow their beliefs, declare the referendum result invalid and then deal with the consequences of our democracy being a dead letter. Instead we have this ridiculous process of delay and uncertainty which is the worst of all worlds.
Why on earth should the EU make concessions? The job of the EU is looking after members of the EU, not looking after non-members or former members. As can be seen from the professionalism, clear-headedness, determination and eloquence they bring to the negotiations, they do that very well. What a pity that people didn't realise they'd be better off sitting inside the tent spitting-out than sitting outside spitting-in.
The job of the EU is surely to make a deal which offers something to both sides-or do you agree with me that there is no real negotiation process at all?
The job of the EU is to look after its members. If they make a deal it has to be in the interest of their members. If that can include finding ways of collaborating or cooperating for the good of all, then that's a bonus. If, however, it is better for their members to take a harder more selfish approach then so be it. That is one of the benefits that being in a large grouping brings - you have the power to call the shots! If you choose to operate outside that group, it's no use bleating because they make decisions that aren't in your interest - it was your choice not to be a part of it.
My point is exactly that, there is no negotiation because the interest of the EU are 1. Keep UK in the EU becasue they need the money and 2. Prevent anybody else leaving by making no concessions. A normal negotiation, as Prague points out above, involves seeing the others point of view and making a deal. The EU has no interest in doing that. Hence no deal.
Perhaps then, the British government should have recognised the EU's position from the start and gone in with the approach of asking how the two could work together best in the future, instead of going in with all the rhetorical bluster of 'Brexit means Brexit' without having the first clue what it meant. Perhaps though, if they shown that much foresight from the off, we'd never have been in this farcical position in the first place. It beggars belief that anyone would seek to blame the EU for the mess we're in, when all they are doing is a bloody good job of representing their members.
I blame only the British Government led by Remainers who still behave as if the EU will compromise. Out is out. The EU has always said that, our Government pretends not to believe it.
They don't pretend anything, they are desperately hoping the EU will change their mind, as every projection by every qualified expert and economist shows us up shit creek if we have a hard brexit, but idiots like you mean no brexit isn't an option. So May and Co are hoping for an impossible compromise to keep them in power.
If a hard brexit was going to end well it would have happened by now.
If you really think brexit will work then find the facts to back that up. While all you have is wishful thinking and the outright lies of Rees-Mogg and Co to back you up then you'll continue to be disdained on here. I would suggest that if those facts exist the government would have been shouting them from the roof tops, as would you. Instead you and they just keep whinging about the mean EU, ridiculous conspiracy theories and how it'd all be OK if people on football forums would just stop talking the country down.
There are no 'facts' to prove what will happen in the future. The main 'facts' are that right now we have a Government that is not prepared to leave the EU, and is creating constant uncertainty for everybody while it looks for an impossible deal with the EU. Nobody wins from this.
And that's what was predicted before the vote, they we could win by voting leave, but you went and did it anyway because you refused to believe. And here we are two years later a d you won't take responsibility for your choice and instead try to blame everyone but yourself and fellow leave voters.
Surely if you accept Southbanks point as valid, that is the fault of the government, not the voters.
Deary me. 10 months to go.... worth reading the verbatim comments from both sides. When I read the No 10 spokesman, I hear the voice of my brother, a rampant, irrational Brexiteer. A cardinal rule of good negotiation is to at least attempt to understand the viewpoint and perspective of the other side. We seem to be failing this basic principle.
Another way of reading this is that the EU is not prepared to make any concession at all. Some of us have argued they would do this from the start and that the whole 'negotiation' is a cover for our Remainer led Government , politicians and civil servants alike, to show us stupid Leavers that staying in the EU is the only option-which of course is the EU position as well.
Our political class, both parties, is so weak and ineffectual thay they do not have the balls to tell the majority outright that they will not carry out the referendum result. Instead we have this endless charade of indecision and fence-sitting all round. If they were honest they would follow their beliefs, declare the referendum result invalid and then deal with the consequences of our democracy being a dead letter. Instead we have this ridiculous process of delay and uncertainty which is the worst of all worlds.
Why on earth should the EU make concessions? The job of the EU is looking after members of the EU, not looking after non-members or former members. As can be seen from the professionalism, clear-headedness, determination and eloquence they bring to the negotiations, they do that very well. What a pity that people didn't realise they'd be better off sitting inside the tent spitting-out than sitting outside spitting-in.
The job of the EU is surely to make a deal which offers something to both sides-or do you agree with me that there is no real negotiation process at all?
The job of the EU is to look after its members. If they make a deal it has to be in the interest of their members. If that can include finding ways of collaborating or cooperating for the good of all, then that's a bonus. If, however, it is better for their members to take a harder more selfish approach then so be it. That is one of the benefits that being in a large grouping brings - you have the power to call the shots! If you choose to operate outside that group, it's no use bleating because they make decisions that aren't in your interest - it was your choice not to be a part of it.
My point is exactly that, there is no negotiation because the interest of the EU are 1. Keep UK in the EU becasue they need the money and 2. Prevent anybody else leaving by making no concessions. A normal negotiation, as Prague points out above, involves seeing the others point of view and making a deal. The EU has no interest in doing that. Hence no deal.
Perhaps then, the British government should have recognised the EU's position from the start and gone in with the approach of asking how the two could work together best in the future, instead of going in with all the rhetorical bluster of 'Brexit means Brexit' without having the first clue what it meant. Perhaps though, if they shown that much foresight from the off, we'd never have been in this farcical position in the first place. It beggars belief that anyone would seek to blame the EU for the mess we're in, when all they are doing is a bloody good job of representing their members.
I blame only the British Government led by Remainers who still behave as if the EU will compromise. Out is out. The EU has always said that, our Government pretends not to believe it.
They don't pretend anything, they are desperately hoping the EU will change their mind, as every projection by every qualified expert and economist shows us up shit creek if we have a hard brexit, but idiots like you mean no brexit isn't an option. So May and Co are hoping for an impossible compromise to keep them in power.
If a hard brexit was going to end well it would have happened by now.
If you really think brexit will work then find the facts to back that up. While all you have is wishful thinking and the outright lies of Rees-Mogg and Co to back you up then you'll continue to be disdained on here. I would suggest that if those facts exist the government would have been shouting them from the roof tops, as would you. Instead you and they just keep whinging about the mean EU, ridiculous conspiracy theories and how it'd all be OK if people on football forums would just stop talking the country down.
There are no 'facts' to prove what will happen in the future. The main 'facts' are that right now we have a Government that is not prepared to leave the EU, and is creating constant uncertainty for everybody while it looks for an impossible deal with the EU. Nobody wins from this.
And that's what was predicted before the vote, they we could win by voting leave, but you went and did it anyway because you refused to believe. And here we are two years later a d you won't take responsibility for your choice and instead try to blame everyone but yourself and fellow leave voters.
Surely if you accept Southbanks point as valid, that is the fault of the government, not the voters.
You are of course right, the government must take the blsme for an idiotic, poorly thought out, vague and completely unplanned referendum, then for plowing ahead despite the damage to the economy and social fabric of the country, and for now still having no plan, no clear negotiating position and still hoping for and promising to deliver impossibilities.
But that was always going to be the case. The leave campaign was built on lies and now they have only two choices, try and make the lies true, or admit they were lieing.
Actually, there is a third option, claim the lies were true anyway, and say its somebody else's thought that it isn't working out. Clearly that tactic works on some people.
The age difference between leave and remain voters is fascinating and definitely relevant. It seems almost impossible to find people under 40 or at least 30 who voted Leave, unless they are too embarrassed to admit it. Anyone know any leave voters under 30 or 40?
Yes lots. It has been a classic response from Remainers since the referendum that they do not know anybody who voted leave. If you went outside the M25 at any point , and went further north, you might ask the question the other way round.
Ah good. Won't be any problem then if there was a potential vote to rejoin then in say 10 years?
I doubt there will be anything left to rejoin in ten years.
Can you explain why you think the EU won't exist in ten years? It seems an extremely fantastical idea for anyone living in Europe -despite its organisational flaws it is not going anywhere, with or without the UK.
I think the EU project could end in failure but difficult to put a timespan on in. It could also go from strength to strength and we should be in the inside trying to ensure the latter and challenging Germany who have too much power in it!
Having just returned from Italy, I can tell you their leadership is anti EU. Watch this space!
The age difference between leave and remain voters is fascinating and definitely relevant. It seems almost impossible to find people under 40 or at least 30 who voted Leave, unless they are too embarrassed to admit it. Anyone know any leave voters under 30 or 40?
Yes lots. It has been a classic response from Remainers since the referendum that they do not know anybody who voted leave. If you went outside the M25 at any point , and went further north, you might ask the question the other way round.
Ah good. Won't be any problem then if there was a potential vote to rejoin then in say 10 years?
I doubt there will be anything left to rejoin in ten years.
Can you explain why you think the EU won't exist in ten years? It seems an extremely fantastical idea for anyone living in Europe -despite its organisational flaws it is not going anywhere, with or without the UK.
I think the EU project could end in failure but difficult to put a timespan on in. It could also go from strength to strength and we should be in the inside trying to ensure the latter and challenging Germany who have too much power in it!
Having just returned from Italy, I can tell you their leadership is anti EU. Watch this space!
But in a sensible country "anti EU" means reform rather than leave, and we've arrived at a place where Italy is actually a more sensible country than the UK.
The age difference between leave and remain voters is fascinating and definitely relevant. It seems almost impossible to find people under 40 or at least 30 who voted Leave, unless they are too embarrassed to admit it. Anyone know any leave voters under 30 or 40?
Yes lots. It has been a classic response from Remainers since the referendum that they do not know anybody who voted leave. If you went outside the M25 at any point , and went further north, you might ask the question the other way round.
Ah good. Won't be any problem then if there was a potential vote to rejoin then in say 10 years?
I doubt there will be anything left to rejoin in ten years.
Can you explain why you think the EU won't exist in ten years? It seems an extremely fantastical idea for anyone living in Europe -despite its organisational flaws it is not going anywhere, with or without the UK.
I think the EU project could end in failure but difficult to put a timespan on in. It could also go from strength to strength and we should be in the inside trying to ensure the latter and challenging Germany who have too much power in it!
Having just returned from Italy, I can tell you their leadership is anti EU. Watch this space!
But in a sensible country "anti EU" means reform rather than leave, and we've arrived at a place where Italy is actually a more sensible country than the UK.
Yes, it is incredible isn't it? Never thought we would get there! of course if we left and did well out of it, it might persuade others to give it a go. Which is exactly why the EU won't let us if it were possible. And I was saying this during the referendum. The EU without us is still much stronger than us on our own, much, much stronger and if people think the Chinese and Trump will come to the rescue they are deluded.
There was a graphic showing the countries the world does the most trade with by putting that county's flag over the country in question. Virtually the whole world had the German Flag - Ireland, god bless em, had the Union Jack. But it does beg the question how Germany negotiated these trade deals when we have to leave the EU to do it. I can't be anything to do with the quality of the goods they produce, surely. This is one of the big lies we are fed by Johnson, Mogg, Fox et all!
@nth london addick You should know what this bloke is talking about, right? Is he wrong or is he right?
Or did you sell your business and start a hedge fund, without me knowing?
Really interesting call. I’d also like to hear @nth london addick Or anyone else’s view that runs a business regularly through the Channel. Is the fella correct in what he says here?
You don't have to be bloody clever or even just ordinarily clever to work it out (not that I'm suggesting that Rinse8 isn't).
Would they be the older and less educated people who have spent their lives working and paying taxes to pay for the education of young better educated people?
Obviously they should be grateful they were even allowed to vote.
None of you 'young' Remainers prepared to respond to this, funny eh.
Yes and No.
Now you go back and respond to the many times others have pulled you up on ridiculous claims and statements you have made and then not followed up when challenged.
The age difference between leave and remain voters is fascinating and definitely relevant. It seems almost impossible to find people under 40 or at least 30 who voted Leave, unless they are too embarrassed to admit it. Anyone know any leave voters under 30 or 40?
Yes lots. It has been a classic response from Remainers since the referendum that they do not know anybody who voted leave. If you went outside the M25 at any point , and went further north, you might ask the question the other way round.
Ah good. Won't be any problem then if there was a potential vote to rejoin then in say 10 years?
I doubt there will be anything left to rejoin in ten years.
Can you explain why you think the EU won't exist in ten years? It seems an extremely fantastical idea for anyone living in Europe -despite its organisational flaws it is not going anywhere, with or without the UK.
I think the EU project could end in failure but difficult to put a timespan on in. It could also go from strength to strength and we should be in the inside trying to ensure the latter and challenging Germany who have too much power in it!
Having just returned from Italy, I can tell you their leadership is anti EU. Watch this space!
The new Italian coalition government are another group of politicians who have been very successful at tapping into a general anti-establishment feeling and to channel this against the EU rather than internal issues, in Italy's case rampant corruption and lax banking regulations.
Like so many other populist politicians ( I would include Corbyn in that) they offer easy solutions to complicated problems and, whilst they can captivate a large section of public opinion, do not actually have any realistic plans about how to address them.
What the EU needs is reform, with its members working to achieve it in a well thought out way. It is far from perfect but it looks like the UK's chaotic experience of leaving is likely to ensure that other countries who are sceptical about the EU would see it as far more preferable to work within it than go it alone. Imagine how shambolic it would be for Italy to leave and reintroduce the Lira for example: it might sound romantically nostalgic for some Italians but would be a complete mess.
Comments
For what it's worth, I do know at least one person who voted leave (from work).
The fact is that the government is paralysed and unable to choose. For there is no mandate and no majority to leaving everything. So the Tories are stuck, waiting for the House of Lords and/or the EU27 to rescue them.
And Labour are simply playing a waiting game. They don't oppose the referendum as that would be perceived as anti-democratic. They approve of being in a Customs Union and have their own internal debate about the Single Market.
People who believe that the least change possible will keep our country ticking over may be happy to wait another 12 months for answers to emerge. As posted before, once we leave the EU, there will be a simple binary option in front of us: Norway or Canada. It's my belief that the country will remain in the Single Market but it's unclear what political mechanism will make that happen.
Of course the government may attempt to defer that choice by extending the transition period. But will the EU agree?
In the meantime, Q1 growth was next to zero and Q2 numbers come out mid August. If Q2 numbers are poor then year on year growth will sink to 1%. And that in turn will start to hurt.
At the same time people will be aware of the emerging NHS expenditure debate where it's estimated an additional two grand per year per household is needed. Much of the NHS expenditure is devoted to older people but there is no £350M per week available.
When we got how great the EU was and how it has made us better off. A lot of poor people didn't get that message loud and clear! But leaving the EU will drag us down, i'll give you that, just not as quickly as we were told!
If a hard brexit was going to end well it would have happened by now.
If you really think brexit will work then find the facts to back that up. While all you have is wishful thinking and the outright lies of Rees-Mogg and Co to back you up then you'll continue to be disdained on here. I would suggest that if those facts exist the government would have been shouting them from the roof tops, as would you. Instead you and they just keep whinging about the mean EU, ridiculous conspiracy theories and how it'd all be OK if people on football forums would just stop talking the country down.
...quite apart from you inventing an argument that does not exist in the post from @Stig . Wouldn't it be better to ask the oldies on here how they feel about educating their children and grandchildren. As a 50+ tax payer I am really happy that my taxes go on education. Maybe we will get a better form of government and politician if people are better educated and I welcome the opportunity for more working class kids to have the opportunity to reach their aspirations (unlikely under the Tories, I know). Finally I am hoping that my investment in education will enable somebody to discover cures for everything and perhaps develop some kind of cheap, lightweight exoskeleton so that I can run around and play football into my 90s.
Nothing to do with remainers, it is your call.
But that was always going to be the case. The leave campaign was built on lies and now they have only two choices, try and make the lies true, or admit they were lieing.
Actually, there is a third option, claim the lies were true anyway, and say its somebody else's thought that it isn't working out. Clearly that tactic works on some people.
The mans got talent!
http://www.brexitmapping.com
Everyone with more than one brain cell!
Having just returned from Italy, I can tell you their leadership is anti EU. Watch this space!
There was a graphic showing the countries the world does the most trade with by putting that county's flag over the country in question. Virtually the whole world had the German Flag - Ireland, god bless em, had the Union Jack. But it does beg the question how Germany negotiated these trade deals when we have to leave the EU to do it. I can't be anything to do with the quality of the goods they produce, surely. This is one of the big lies we are fed by Johnson, Mogg, Fox et all!
Really interesting call. I’d also like to hear @nth london addick Or anyone else’s view that runs a business regularly through the Channel. Is the fella correct in what he says here?
Now you go back and respond to the many times others have pulled you up on ridiculous claims and statements you have made and then not followed up when challenged.
Like so many other populist politicians ( I would include Corbyn in that) they offer easy solutions to complicated problems and, whilst they can captivate a large section of public opinion, do not actually have any realistic plans about how to address them.
What the EU needs is reform, with its members working to achieve it in a well thought out way. It is far from perfect but it looks like the UK's chaotic experience of leaving is likely to ensure that other countries who are sceptical about the EU would see it as far more preferable to work within it than go it alone. Imagine how shambolic it would be for Italy to leave and reintroduce the Lira for example: it might sound romantically nostalgic for some Italians but would be a complete mess.