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Charlie Gard

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  • The parents aren't thinking rationally, nor should we be expecting them to. You have to trust the experts who have been doing this job for years and know what they're talking about. It's a heart breaking situation for everyone.

    One set of doctors is saying it has a 10% chance of improving his life. The others are saying 0%.

    If he doesn't end up getting the treatment I hope it somehow turns out the correct decision.
  • That's the real shit about this situation, how much has his condition declined since all this started?

    Would he have had more chance of success if sent to the US early doors after the money had been raised?

    It's all just brutal on all involved related to Charlie.
  • edited July 2017
    What we can't understand is what the pain and suffering is. The doctors will know more so their opinion is more informed. An assessment does need to be made, but doctors can be wrong which makes this such a difficult case. If there is a chance of a cure, the pain and suffering is justified, but doctors are saying there is no cure and Charlie is badly brain damaged - again they undertsand the extent of this more than me.

    My gut feeling is that the British doctors are probably right, but if I was one of the parents and I thought there was hope, I would fight as hard as the poor lad's parents are doing! Sometimes, love is knowing when to let go though.

    I do know the Americans getting involved seem more bothered about this poor little soul than the massively high infant mortality rate in their country, linked to poor people and something they can do something about. A poor country like Cuba puts the US to shame in this respect! The Catholic church has been content to order people in Africa not to use condoms which resulted in unthinkable numbers dying of AIDS! These people fighting for life, have responsibility for too many deaths for my liking.

  • @golfaddick I get the feeling they feel they are doing this in Charlie's best interests.

    The more I think about it, the more depressing their predicament becomes. Sadly I think the time taken during these judgements has allowed Charlie's condition to continue deteriorating.

    I hate to say this, but I am beginning to agree that maybe he should be allowed to die peacefully now.

    It makes me hate myself a little to even say it, as in my heart it's the wrong thing still, but in my head, Charlie's condition will only deteriorate the longer he is kept alive without treatment.
  • I hope they are given the chance, I think as a parent, if you lose your child and there was one thing that you could have tried but didn't it would eat away at you forever. Knowing that someone else took that chance away from you would breed so much hate it would be hard to grieve.

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  • edited July 2017

    I hope they are given the chance, I think as a parent, if you lose your child and there was one thing that you could have tried but didn't it would eat away at you forever. Knowing that someone else took that chance away from you would breed so much hate it would be hard to grieve.

    I see it this way, personally. Which is why from an objective point of view it is a good thing that decisions like this are not made by parents, and in the best interests of the child.

    Truly awful situation, that as a new parent I am really struggling to read/hear about.
  • Dazzler21 said:

    @golfaddick I get the feeling they feel they are doing this in Charlie's best interests.

    The more I think about it, the more depressing their predicament becomes. Sadly I think the time taken during these judgements has allowed Charlie's condition to continue deteriorating.

    I hate to say this, but I am beginning to agree that maybe he should be allowed to die peacefully now.

    It makes me hate myself a little to even say it, as in my heart it's the wrong thing still, but in my head, Charlie's condition will only deteriorate the longer he is kept alive without treatment.

    I've no doubt that they believe it's the best thing for him. Apart from the fact that their emotional attachment makes it nigh on impossible to take a dispassionate view, they also have the trouble that they've taken an entrenched position. Supposing just one of them has doubts about the wisdom of their argument, how could they possibly broach it to the other one? This situation is made doubly difficult by well-meaning members of the public supporting their position.

    It's easy to say, but obviously tremendously difficult to do, but I think they need to change tack and allow nature take its course. They should stop fighting the courts and put all of their considerable energies into ensuring that Charlie has the best possible love a palliative care for his final days/hours. The first hurdle is just beginning to think about that as an option. Even if one of them gets that far, how do they possibly begin a constructive dialogue with their partner. The whole situation is a nightmare, I hope they are strong enough to come through it.
  • Chizz said:

    It's an intractable and almost insoluble problem. But one for which we in the UK have the best method of mediating, ie the courts.

    The patient's wishes have to be primary. And, in the case of a patient too young to make his or her decision, then the patient's parents' views are the most important.

    The medical team's role is to help the patients (or parents) make the decisions that best serve the patient's interest. That might be choosing from a range of options, or it might be helping them understand that there is only one viable course of action.

    The issue comes only when there is a conflict between what the medical team decides are the range of viable options and what the parents' wishes are. That's the case with Charly.

    When this happens, it's the courts that get to mediate and/or decide. Note, it's not the state, but the courts - that's an important distinction.

    The courts play a crucial role, testing the evidence and, when necessary (as in the current case) requesting more evidence is sought and presented.

    The only good thing that will come out of this terrible situation, is that we will know the determination will have been made using the right process.

    I don't know enough about the detail of the case to be able to say which way it should go. But I think the treatment he's getting and which is being considered will not "cure" him, will not improve his quality of life and will serve only to prolong it. And, as there is no proof that he is not currently suffering, extending his life is, in my opinion, going to cause him harm, as it will extend the suffering he's already experiencing.

    The most important rule of medicine (often referred to as the Hypocratic oath) is that first, a doctor must do no harm. I think Charly being given more treatment would break that rule. For that reason I don't think his treatment should continue.

    Very eloquently put, @chizz
  • edited July 2017

    I hope they are given the chance, I think as a parent, if you lose your child and there was one thing that you could have tried but didn't it would eat away at you forever. Knowing that someone else took that chance away from you would breed so much hate it would be hard to grieve.

    I see it this way, personally. Which is why from an objective point of view it is a good thing that decisions like this are not made by parents, and in the best interests of the child.

    Truly awful situation, that as a new parent I am really struggling to read/hear about.
    I think their decision is plaguing me so much for this very reason and I just can't figure out what I'd do...
  • Chizz said:

    It's an intractable and almost insoluble problem. But one for which we in the UK have the best method of mediating, ie the courts.

    The patient's wishes have to be primary. And, in the case of a patient too young to make his or her decision, then the patient's parents' views are the most important.

    The medical team's role is to help the patients (or parents) make the decisions that best serve the patient's interest. That might be choosing from a range of options, or it might be helping them understand that there is only one viable course of action.

    The issue comes only when there is a conflict between what the medical team decides are the range of viable options and what the parents' wishes are. That's the case with Charly.

    When this happens, it's the courts that get to mediate and/or decide. Note, it's not the state, but the courts - that's an important distinction.

    The courts play a crucial role, testing the evidence and, when necessary (as in the current case) requesting more evidence is sought and presented.

    The only good thing that will come out of this terrible situation, is that we will know the determination will have been made using the right process.

    I don't know enough about the detail of the case to be able to say which way it should go. But I think the treatment he's getting and which is being considered will not "cure" him, will not improve his quality of life and will serve only to prolong it. And, as there is no proof that he is not currently suffering, extending his life is, in my opinion, going to cause him harm, as it will extend the suffering he's already experiencing.

    The most important rule of medicine (often referred to as the Hypocratic oath) is that first, a doctor must do no harm. I think Charly being given more treatment would break that rule. For that reason I don't think his treatment should continue.

    I don't believe "the parents views are the most important" - the paramount consideration is this child's best interests which is not necessarily the same thing as the parents views, as illustrated by this case.
  • se9addick said:

    Chizz said:

    It's an intractable and almost insoluble problem. But one for which we in the UK have the best method of mediating, ie the courts.

    The patient's wishes have to be primary. And, in the case of a patient too young to make his or her decision, then the patient's parents' views are the most important.

    The medical team's role is to help the patients (or parents) make the decisions that best serve the patient's interest. That might be choosing from a range of options, or it might be helping them understand that there is only one viable course of action.

    The issue comes only when there is a conflict between what the medical team decides are the range of viable options and what the parents' wishes are. That's the case with Charly.

    When this happens, it's the courts that get to mediate and/or decide. Note, it's not the state, but the courts - that's an important distinction.

    The courts play a crucial role, testing the evidence and, when necessary (as in the current case) requesting more evidence is sought and presented.

    The only good thing that will come out of this terrible situation, is that we will know the determination will have been made using the right process.

    I don't know enough about the detail of the case to be able to say which way it should go. But I think the treatment he's getting and which is being considered will not "cure" him, will not improve his quality of life and will serve only to prolong it. And, as there is no proof that he is not currently suffering, extending his life is, in my opinion, going to cause him harm, as it will extend the suffering he's already experiencing.

    The most important rule of medicine (often referred to as the Hypocratic oath) is that first, a doctor must do no harm. I think Charly being given more treatment would break that rule. For that reason I don't think his treatment should continue.

    I don't believe "the parents views are the most important" - the paramount consideration is this child's best interests which is not necessarily the same thing as the parents views, as illustrated by this case.
    I think Chizz qualified that when he said the issue only arises where there is conflict, as in this case. Then adds that the (independent) courts are the best vehicle to make the decision

    If the case was about the medics offering two courses of treatment as both viable then the most important view is that of the parents - and of course in that scenario we wouldn't need the courts.
  • se9addick said:

    Chizz said:

    It's an intractable and almost insoluble problem. But one for which we in the UK have the best method of mediating, ie the courts.

    The patient's wishes have to be primary. And, in the case of a patient too young to make his or her decision, then the patient's parents' views are the most important.

    The medical team's role is to help the patients (or parents) make the decisions that best serve the patient's interest. That might be choosing from a range of options, or it might be helping them understand that there is only one viable course of action.

    The issue comes only when there is a conflict between what the medical team decides are the range of viable options and what the parents' wishes are. That's the case with Charly.

    When this happens, it's the courts that get to mediate and/or decide. Note, it's not the state, but the courts - that's an important distinction.

    The courts play a crucial role, testing the evidence and, when necessary (as in the current case) requesting more evidence is sought and presented.

    The only good thing that will come out of this terrible situation, is that we will know the determination will have been made using the right process.

    I don't know enough about the detail of the case to be able to say which way it should go. But I think the treatment he's getting and which is being considered will not "cure" him, will not improve his quality of life and will serve only to prolong it. And, as there is no proof that he is not currently suffering, extending his life is, in my opinion, going to cause him harm, as it will extend the suffering he's already experiencing.

    The most important rule of medicine (often referred to as the Hypocratic oath) is that first, a doctor must do no harm. I think Charly being given more treatment would break that rule. For that reason I don't think his treatment should continue.

    I don't believe "the parents views are the most important" - the paramount consideration is this child's best interests which is not necessarily the same thing as the parents views, as illustrated by this case.
    The parents' views *are* the most important, simply because they represent what we assume their understanding of the child's best interests are. And so long as their views don't cause harm or injury to the child, they should be respected and allowed. It's only at the point where their views would cause harm or injury to the child that they should be called into question.

    That's the point of this case, I think. I might disagree with their views (on balance, I do), but their views should hold primacy.

    It's like withdrawing a child from sex education at school. It's a stupid idea, but we (actually, who is "we"?) should low them to do so, because their view counts the most. Likewise choice of religion, refusing to teach languages, withdrawal from sport, circumcision. These are all things I might disagree with parents' decisions, but that doesn't matter: it's their right to choose, for whatever reason they want. Until there's a choice which might cause harm or injury.
  • I don't think genital mutilation belongs in that list.
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  • I think there was a case a few years ago where parents refused a blood transfusion for their child and the courts overruled them. There are circumstances where the views of the parents cannot take precedence. It is difficult, really difficult.
  • I think there was a case a few years ago where parents refused a blood transfusion for their child and the courts overruled them. There are circumstances where the views of the parents cannot take precedence. It is difficult, really difficult.

    In my view, this is simple. In the case of denying blood transfusion on religious grounds, the parents' decision would cause harm to the child and should therefore be disallowed. Same with FGM.
  • aliwibble said:

    Joshua Rozenberg (@JoshuaRozenberg) is live tweeting the hearing at the moment. Currently hearing evidence from a NY doctor via live video link.

    Oh, and I'd just like to add that Mike Pence is scum for using this case for his own political purposes.

    Mike Pence, Trump and the Pope have all used this case for their own agenda.
  • Chizz said:

    I think there was a case a few years ago where parents refused a blood transfusion for their child and the courts overruled them. There are circumstances where the views of the parents cannot take precedence. It is difficult, really difficult.

    In my view, this is simple. In the case of denying blood transfusion on religious grounds, the parents' decision would cause harm to the child and should therefore be disallowed. Same with FGM.
    Yes, I agree - my point is parents can not be trusted to do what is best for their child even though they will believe they are doing what is best.
  • Chizz said:

    I think there was a case a few years ago where parents refused a blood transfusion for their child and the courts overruled them. There are circumstances where the views of the parents cannot take precedence. It is difficult, really difficult.

    In my view, this is simple. In the case of denying blood transfusion on religious grounds, the parents' decision would cause harm to the child and should therefore be disallowed. Same with FGM.
    Yes, I agree - my point is parents can not be trusted to do what is best for their child even though they will believe they are doing what is best.
    I would qualify that and say 'can not always be trusted' - the vast majority of the time parents will choose correctly what is best for their child and if they are unable to do that then they shouldn't be parents.
  • but who decides when they are right or wrong?
  • but who decides when they are right or wrong?

    Nobody but the parents most of the time - otherwise there would be court cases to determine every necessary decision a parent makes for their child.

    This case is exceptional, as would be any medical treatment case where the parents wanted to go against unanimous medical opinion.
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