If you read back on the election thread you'll see I gave them an amount of stick, not as much as Labour granted, but that's because I think Labour are worse. I said many times voting for the Tory's was in my view the best of a truly bad bunch.
There's a lot wrong with the conservatives and some of their policies, a rubbish PM, a poor election campaign to name just two. I also think Corbyn would be an awful PM but Labour ran a very good campaign.
Have a look back at my first post on page 1 of this thread.
So you sometimes vote labour then?
Yes, I'm not tied to one party, I decide where my vote will go each election. Roughly 50/50 over the past 26 years and I didn't vote once. Although some seem to think I'm a raving Tory despite mentioning this numerous times.
Just like being accused of voting Tory to protect myself financially when the reality is I'd have been considerably better off under Labours proposals at least in the short term but probably longer term also and I am a lot worse off financially since 2010 under conservatives/lib dems.
I guess I'm have to trust you on that. Given your last sentence, can you explain why you dislike the Tories least at the moment (forgive me if you have already done so, there's a lot of pages to trawl back through, so a cut n paste will do if you have)?
If you read back on the election thread you'll see I gave them an amount of stick, not as much as Labour granted, but that's because I think Labour are worse. I said many times voting for the Tory's was in my view the best of a truly bad bunch.
There's a lot wrong with the conservatives and some of their policies, a rubbish PM, a poor election campaign to name just two. I also think Corbyn would be an awful PM but Labour ran a very good campaign.
Have a look back at my first post on page 1 of this thread.
So you sometimes vote labour then?
Yes, I'm not tied to one party, I decide where my vote will go each election. Roughly 50/50 over the past 26 years and I didn't vote once. Although some seem to think I'm a raving Tory despite mentioning this numerous times.
Just like being accused of voting Tory to protect myself financially when the reality is I'd have been considerably better off under Labours proposals at least in the short term but probably longer term also and I am a lot worse off financially since 2010 under conservatives/lib dems.
I guess I'm have to trust you on that. Given your last sentence, can you explain why you dislike the Tories least at the moment (forgive me if you have already done so, there's a lot of pages to trawl back through, so a cut n paste will do if you have)?
So many subjects but a few highlights;
the Tories are a 'known quantity', both good and bad. Although I don't agree with everything they have done or will do, in the main they aren't a million miles off IMHO (see my original post on page 1). Austerity has probably gone too far in some respects but they have tried to balance that out for individuals/lower earners in particular with the increase in personal allowance and have progressively taxed the higher earners more to compensate, but it's the really low or non earners who have been hit too hard that they need to rectify. Some public sectors need greater financing but I'm also not one for simply throwing money at things, we also need to look at how we work/run things.
In my view I think people conveniently forget the increased taxation that has already taken place whether that's loss of the personal allowance or loss of child allowance, reduced tax allowance for pension contributions etc. Totally the right thing to do under the circumstances we found ourselves in. They could probably go a step further (I'd add 1p on all bands) but labours 5 & 10p increases were too much on a small group of people and took our progressive tax system to a level to far.
In comparison I didn't believe Labour could fund half of what they promised and I could see the country being worse off than we are now with them trying. Again it's just my opinion but taking taxation which in the main was to pay for a lot of the promises, in my industry they would have received less in tax than they do now from both companies & individuals. We'd have shipped out 80% of the business (and therefore profit) as well as a number of the higher paid staff were looking at their plans to go to Bermuda.
For me somewhere in-between the two would be ideal, but Labour have gone too far left for me and the Conservatives still need to move away a little more from the right to be ideal. If I'm in the centre, labour are about 100 miles left and conservatives 20 miles right, I don't see those gaps changing much in the short term.
I also felt that the people Corbyn has at his disposal were he to be in government are poor, he may have massively increased his popularity with the electorate but I'm not so sure in his own party, the sheer number of front bench moves since he became leader and those MP's who still wouldn't work for him I think are quite high. He's fishing in a very small pond of people. His two right hand people didn't fill me with any sort of joy, I loathe them both.
I don't think anyone agrees 100% with a party, well at least I don't nor have I ever done, I'm probably too opinionated but it's the reason each election I look at each on their merits and vote that way or if I'm pretty even (which I have been in the 90's/early 00's) i'll vote based on the local candidate.
If you read back on the election thread you'll see I gave them an amount of stick, not as much as Labour granted, but that's because I think Labour are worse. I said many times voting for the Tory's was in my view the best of a truly bad bunch.
There's a lot wrong with the conservatives and some of their policies, a rubbish PM, a poor election campaign to name just two. I also think Corbyn would be an awful PM but Labour ran a very good campaign.
Have a look back at my first post on page 1 of this thread.
So you sometimes vote labour then?
Yes, I'm not tied to one party, I decide where my vote will go each election. Roughly 50/50 over the past 26 years and I didn't vote once. Although some seem to think I'm a raving Tory despite mentioning this numerous times.
Just like being accused of voting Tory to protect myself financially when the reality is I'd have been considerably better off under Labours proposals at least in the short term but probably longer term also and I am a lot worse off financially since 2010 under conservatives/lib dems.
I guess I'm have to trust you on that. Given your last sentence, can you explain why you dislike the Tories least at the moment (forgive me if you have already done so, there's a lot of pages to trawl back through, so a cut n paste will do if you have)?
So many subjects but a few highlights;
the Tories are a 'known quantity', both good and bad. Although I don't agree with everything they have done or will do, in the main they aren't a million miles off IMHO (see my original post on page 1). Austerity has probably gone too far in some respects but they have tried to balance that out for individuals/lower earners in particular with the increase in personal allowance and have progressively taxed the higher earners more to compensate, but it's the really low or non earners who have been hit too hard that they need to rectify. Some public sectors need greater financing but I'm also not one for simply throwing money at things, we also need to look at how we work/run things.
In my view I think people conveniently forget the increased taxation that has already taken place whether that's loss of the personal allowance or loss of child allowance, reduced tax allowance for pension contributions etc. Totally the right thing to do under the circumstances we found ourselves in. They could probably go a step further (I'd add 1p on all bands) but labours 5 & 10p increases were too much on a small group of people and took our progressive tax system to a level to far.
In comparison I didn't believe Labour could fund half of what they promised and I could see the country being worse off than we are now with them trying. Again it's just my opinion but taking taxation which in the main was to pay for a lot of the promises, in my industry they would have received less in tax than they do now from both companies & individuals. We'd have shipped out 80% of the business (and therefore profit) as well as a number of the higher paid staff were looking at their plans to go to Bermuda.
For me somewhere in-between the two would be ideal, but Labour have gone too far left for me and the Conservatives still need to move away a little more from the right to be ideal. If I'm in the centre, labour are about 100 miles left and conservatives 20 miles right, I don't see those gaps changing much in the short term.
I also felt that the people Corbyn has at his disposal were he to be in government are poor, he may have massively increased his popularity with the electorate but I'm not so sure in his own party, the sheer number of front bench moves since he became leader and those MP's who still wouldn't work for him I think are quite high. He's fishing in a very small pond of people. His two right hand people didn't fill me with any sort of joy, I loathe them both.
I don't think anyone agrees 100% with a party, well at least I don't nor have I ever done, I'm probably too opinionated but it's the reason each election I look at each on their merits and vote that way or if I'm pretty even (which I have been in the 90's/early 00's) i'll vote based on the local candidate.
If you read back on the election thread you'll see I gave them an amount of stick, not as much as Labour granted, but that's because I think Labour are worse. I said many times voting for the Tory's was in my view the best of a truly bad bunch.
There's a lot wrong with the conservatives and some of their policies, a rubbish PM, a poor election campaign to name just two. I also think Corbyn would be an awful PM but Labour ran a very good campaign.
Have a look back at my first post on page 1 of this thread.
So you sometimes vote labour then?
Yes, I'm not tied to one party, I decide where my vote will go each election. Roughly 50/50 over the past 26 years and I didn't vote once. Although some seem to think I'm a raving Tory despite mentioning this numerous times.
Just like being accused of voting Tory to protect myself financially when the reality is I'd have been considerably better off under Labours proposals at least in the short term but probably longer term also and I am a lot worse off financially since 2010 under conservatives/lib dems.
I guess I'm have to trust you on that. Given your last sentence, can you explain why you dislike the Tories least at the moment (forgive me if you have already done so, there's a lot of pages to trawl back through, so a cut n paste will do if you have)?
So many subjects but a few highlights;
the Tories are a 'known quantity', both good and bad. Although I don't agree with everything they have done or will do, in the main they aren't a million miles off IMHO (see my original post on page 1). Austerity has probably gone too far in some respects but they have tried to balance that out for individuals/lower earners in particular with the increase in personal allowance and have progressively taxed the higher earners more to compensate, but it's the really low or non earners who have been hit too hard that they need to rectify. Some public sectors need greater financing but I'm also not one for simply throwing money at things, we also need to look at how we work/run things.
In my view I think people conveniently forget the increased taxation that has already taken place whether that's loss of the personal allowance or loss of child allowance, reduced tax allowance for pension contributions etc. Totally the right thing to do under the circumstances we found ourselves in. They could probably go a step further (I'd add 1p on all bands) but labours 5 & 10p increases were too much on a small group of people and took our progressive tax system to a level to far.
In comparison I didn't believe Labour could fund half of what they promised and I could see the country being worse off than we are now with them trying. Again it's just my opinion but taking taxation which in the main was to pay for a lot of the promises, in my industry they would have received less in tax than they do now from both companies & individuals. We'd have shipped out 80% of the business (and therefore profit) as well as a number of the higher paid staff were looking at their plans to go to Bermuda.
For me somewhere in-between the two would be ideal, but Labour have gone too far left for me and the Conservatives still need to move away a little more from the right to be ideal. If I'm in the centre, labour are about 100 miles left and conservatives 20 miles right, I don't see those gaps changing much in the short term.
I also felt that the people Corbyn has at his disposal were he to be in government are poor, he may have massively increased his popularity with the electorate but I'm not so sure in his own party, the sheer number of front bench moves since he became leader and those MP's who still wouldn't work for him I think are quite high. He's fishing in a very small pond of people. His two right hand people didn't fill me with any sort of joy, I loathe them both.
I don't think anyone agrees 100% with a party, well at least I don't nor have I ever done, I'm probably too opinionated but it's the reason each election I look at each on their merits and vote that way or if I'm pretty even (which I have been in the 90's/early 00's) i'll vote based on the local candidate.
Blimey damning stuff on the Tories.
Lol, I was responding to why I dislike the Tories least (between them and Labour) not a 'damning list' which I'm sure we could all come up with on every party over the past 40 years.
If you read back on the election thread you'll see I gave them an amount of stick, not as much as Labour granted, but that's because I think Labour are worse. I said many times voting for the Tory's was in my view the best of a truly bad bunch.
There's a lot wrong with the conservatives and some of their policies, a rubbish PM, a poor election campaign to name just two. I also think Corbyn would be an awful PM but Labour ran a very good campaign.
Have a look back at my first post on page 1 of this thread.
So you sometimes vote labour then?
Yes, I'm not tied to one party, I decide where my vote will go each election. Roughly 50/50 over the past 26 years and I didn't vote once. Although some seem to think I'm a raving Tory despite mentioning this numerous times.
Just like being accused of voting Tory to protect myself financially when the reality is I'd have been considerably better off under Labours proposals at least in the short term but probably longer term also and I am a lot worse off financially since 2010 under conservatives/lib dems.
I guess I'm have to trust you on that. Given your last sentence, can you explain why you dislike the Tories least at the moment (forgive me if you have already done so, there's a lot of pages to trawl back through, so a cut n paste will do if you have)?
So many subjects but a few highlights;
the Tories are a 'known quantity', both good and bad. Although I don't agree with everything they have done or will do, in the main they aren't a million miles off IMHO (see my original post on page 1). Austerity has probably gone too far in some respects but they have tried to balance that out for individuals/lower earners in particular with the increase in personal allowance and have progressively taxed the higher earners more to compensate, but it's the really low or non earners who have been hit too hard that they need to rectify. Some public sectors need greater financing but I'm also not one for simply throwing money at things, we also need to look at how we work/run things.
In my view I think people conveniently forget the increased taxation that has already taken place whether that's loss of the personal allowance or loss of child allowance, reduced tax allowance for pension contributions etc. Totally the right thing to do under the circumstances we found ourselves in. They could probably go a step further (I'd add 1p on all bands) but labours 5 & 10p increases were too much on a small group of people and took our progressive tax system to a level to far.
In comparison I didn't believe Labour could fund half of what they promised and I could see the country being worse off than we are now with them trying. Again it's just my opinion but taking taxation which in the main was to pay for a lot of the promises, in my industry they would have received less in tax than they do now from both companies & individuals. We'd have shipped out 80% of the business (and therefore profit) as well as a number of the higher paid staff were looking at their plans to go to Bermuda.
For me somewhere in-between the two would be ideal, but Labour have gone too far left for me and the Conservatives still need to move away a little more from the right to be ideal. If I'm in the centre, labour are about 100 miles left and conservatives 20 miles right, I don't see those gaps changing much in the short term.
I also felt that the people Corbyn has at his disposal were he to be in government are poor, he may have massively increased his popularity with the electorate but I'm not so sure in his own party, the sheer number of front bench moves since he became leader and those MP's who still wouldn't work for him I think are quite high. He's fishing in a very small pond of people. His two right hand people didn't fill me with any sort of joy, I loathe them both.
I don't think anyone agrees 100% with a party, well at least I don't nor have I ever done, I'm probably too opinionated but it's the reason each election I look at each on their merits and vote that way or if I'm pretty even (which I have been in the 90's/early 00's) i'll vote based on the local candidate.
Blimey damning stuff on the Tories.
Lol, I was responding to why I dislike the Tories least (between them and Labour) not a 'damning list' which I'm sure we could all come up with on every party over the past 40 years.
I can't help thinking that this government is reaching the stage that all governments that have been in office for a while reach where people have just had enough of the same faces, same policies and want something fresher. Eventually they have nothing to say that anyone wants to hear and become bogged down by gaffs and incompetence.
I think the fat lady is not too close to singing just yet but she's on the way to the auditorium.
I can't help thinking that this government is reaching the stage that all governments that have been in office for a while reach where people have just had enough of the same faces, same policies and want something fresher. Eventually they have nothing to say that anyone wants to hear and become bogged down by gaffs and incompetence.
I think the fat lady is not too close to singing just yet but she's on the way to the auditorium.
David Davis I imagine will be their next leader
They'll have to get past the caricature that is Rees Mogg. Calls his child sixtus and says of Britain's divorce bill from the EU that we won't owe a 'single farthing'. It's like he still thinks we're living in 1217. Probably thinks the plague is due a comeback and the east India tea company still trade
I can't help thinking that this government is reaching the stage that all governments that have been in office for a while reach where people have just had enough of the same faces, same policies and want something fresher. Eventually they have nothing to say that anyone wants to hear and become bogged down by gaffs and incompetence.
I think the fat lady is not too close to singing just yet but she's on the way to the auditorium.
David Davis I imagine will be their next leader
They'll have to get past the caricature that is Rees Mogg. Calls his child sixtus and says of Britain's divorce bill from the EU that we won't owe a 'single farthing'. It's like he still thinks we're living in 1217. Probably thinks the plague is due a comeback and the east India tea company still trade
It's a complete parody.
Theresa May's naughtiest moment is running through a field of wheat. Boris Johnson talks like someone out of a Victorian comic. Jacob's kids are named like they're in a Jane Austen novel. Their MPs use outdated racial slurs. Their last campaigns have been almost entirely targeted at exploiting the average Brit's irrational fear of Jonny Foreigner and their propaganda looks like First World War slogans. And their entire Brexit plan seems to be a return to mercantilism.
The modern Tory party would have looked antiquated in 1947, not just 2017.
Convincing the working class that they speak for them has to be the most genius trick ever pulled.
So... the "working class" are stupid? The bourgeois left's logic is astounding sometimes. People who vote vote for a very good reason, but I suppose it's the old left wing "I love democracy... as long as everyone votes the way I want them to"
Convincing the working class that they speak for them has to be the most genius trick ever pulled.
So... the "working class" are stupid? The bourgeois left's logic is astounding sometimes. People who vote vote for a very good reason, but I suppose it's the old left wing "I love democracy... as long as everyone votes the way I want them to"
I think there was praise for the Tories in there though. A hats off to a party that convinces people to vote for them that have absolutely no reason to do so. Ok they get help from the media, but turning austerity (which is a complete load of boll***s economically) into a positive is pretty impressive. It is like selling fridges to eskimos!
The title of this thread is how do the tories need to change? Well, they have fallen into the trap of complacency - you can't keep punching somebody in the back and blaming somebody else - there comes a time when they have had enough and work out it is you. There are a lot of tories who can see this now. The biggest thing that messed up the Tories getting their predicted landslide was the Labour party manifesto - much more so than the social care gaff. It wasn't an austerity light option, where Labour's previous position was, we'll hit you but not quite so hard! It was a manifesto for growth and fairness. Critics of it couldn't really disagree with any of it in principle, just challenge how we could afford it. Of course publishing the numbers behind the manifesto was crucial and something Labour would not have had the wit to do in the past.
One thing the Tories have to understand is that Corbyn is a great campagner, whether you agree with him or not. The tactics during the election were spot on. For instance, it is widely known that the leaking of the manifesto was tactical and it was a masterstroke. The coverage it got in the media - who love a good leak - was very advantageous and the Tories were not ready to attack it as they were focussing on the later launch. Having the figures to back up the statements was essential. The labour party ensured it had the most comprehensive costings of any manifesto previously. Having rallies where there were thousands of passionate supporters, not a twenty or thirty people who look like they were told to be there and handed a placard. It all built on creating something.
Now the Tories do not understimate Corbyn. But they are on the back foot. When they get their new leader they are going to have to jump to the left big time or they have lost. The last election set the ground the next election needs to be fought on and won. The Tories do know that they can't fight the next election with May. They have to find a leader who can match Corbyn's authenticity and persuaveness. That isn't going to be easy.
Convincing the working class that they speak for them has to be the most genius trick ever pulled.
So... the "working class" are stupid? The bourgeois left's logic is astounding sometimes. People who vote vote for a very good reason, but I suppose it's the old left wing "I love democracy... as long as everyone votes the way I want them to"
Who said the working class are stupid? I am working class - hardly bourgeois! Just saying the Conservatives have a genius for appealing to people beyond who they actually stand for.
Convincing the working class that they speak for them has to be the most genius trick ever pulled.
Had this discussion with my gf a few days ago. Luckily for them, the right wing demographic covers traditional ways of thinking and racist ones too. Kinda a double win... where as the left pretty much just covers a liberal mindset and our country historically has never been left wing
Convincing the working class that they speak for them has to be the most genius trick ever pulled.
Had this discussion with my gf a few days ago. Luckily for them, the right wing demographic covers traditional ways of thinking and racist ones too. Kinda a double win... where as the left pretty much just covers a liberal mindset and our country historically has never been left wing
There are those on the left who are just as racist and aggressive as those on the right. You just have to look on twitter and some of the replies on this thread..
Convincing the working class that they speak for them has to be the most genius trick ever pulled.
So... the "working class" are stupid? The bourgeois left's logic is astounding sometimes. People who vote vote for a very good reason, but I suppose it's the old left wing "I love democracy... as long as everyone votes the way I want them to"
I think there was praise for the Tories in there though. A hats off to a party that convinces people to vote for them that have absolutely no reason to do so.
I think you've just confirmed one of @kentaddick points.
Yes I can see how somebody like you might think that, but my point relates to Brexit and even Trump. What you do to get people who ought to be voting for your rivals in their own interests is to frighten them. A major tool to do this is to convince them that they will be worse off or suggest to them that whilst they might not be well off yet, you'll help them achieve it if they simply work hard enough whereas the others want to keep you poor. Where the tool stops working is when people decide that they can't be much worse off than they are now and they see the chances of bettering their position isn't really there no matter how hard they work. More and more working people being in poverty and using food banks - working people - tells you that a significant tipping point has been reached. Undertsanding that is a key area where the Tories need to change - and I have picked up from statement made by senior Tories, that a lot of them do.
People will go where they are given hope. Previously the far right have benefitted the most, but Sanders in America and now Corbyn here are showing that this is ground the left can occupy. We should all be pleased about that because we certainly shoudn't want the equivalent of Le Penn in opposition. The reality of Labour's manifesto is that it is a social democratic one rather than a socialist one. Yes there are socialist leanings in some aspects, but it really isn't that left of centre, it is just that everything else has moved so far to the right. Is free university education a left wing policy? Well Thatcher didn't do anything to stop it and she wasn't Karl Marx! It was actually Blair who first introduced it in the first instance.
In terms of the railways - German rail is owned by a state owned company - the germans are hardly marxists. These are not left wing policies - just sensible ones. The crazy thing is that our railways and utilities are owned by state owned companies, it is just that they are German state owned comapnies, and French ones and even Chinese ones!
In terms of taxation - the corporation tax changes advocated by Labour would still see British companies paying less than comapnies do in far from left wing countries around Europe. And many many highly respected economists around the world say that Labour have the best policies for growth - which is what we should be trying to do with the economy. These are not just socialist economists, but people commenting on the best approach. You can pick through all the elements of the manifesto and make a clear case the LAbour party manifesto was around social justice rather than socialism.
And why would anybody be against social justice - even a Tory? Like I said in my previous post, they can say, it would be great but we can't afford it, but they can't say these are policies that they don't beleive in, unless thay don't believe in Social justice.
So you didn't take your hat off to a party (the Tory's) that convinced people to vote for them that had absolutely no reasons to do so? Maybe you can clarify who are these people that had no reason to vote for a party but did?
Convincing the working class that they speak for them has to be the most genius trick ever pulled.
Had this discussion with my gf a few days ago. Luckily for them, the right wing demographic covers traditional ways of thinking and racist ones too. Kinda a double win... where as the left pretty much just covers a liberal mindset and our country historically has never been left wing
There are those on the left who are just as racist and aggressive as those on the right. You just have to look on twitter and some of the replies on this thread..
Shine didn't mention aggression, there are some on the left who are aggressive, but fewer. And there are far fewer on the left who are racist.
Convincing the working class that they speak for them has to be the most genius trick ever pulled.
Had this discussion with my gf a few days ago. Luckily for them, the right wing demographic covers traditional ways of thinking and racist ones too. Kinda a double win... where as the left pretty much just covers a liberal mindset and our country historically has never been left wing
There are those on the left who are just as racist and aggressive as those on the right. You just have to look on twitter and some of the replies on this thread..
Shine didn't mention aggression, there are some on the left who are aggressive, but fewer. And there are far fewer on the left who are racist.
Well, when some of their senior members are being suspended for anti Semitism and have links to groups that are violently anti Semitic then I'd beg to differ
So you didn't take your hat off to a party (the Tory's) that convinced people to vote for them that had absolutely no reasons to do so? Maybe you can clarify who are these people that had no reason to vote for a party but did?
No doubt we'll be back onto pensions shortly
Well I tried to explain what I meant and why your point was incorrect, but some people don't really try to undertsand the point being made. People like you
So you didn't take your hat off to a party (the Tory's) that convinced people to vote for them that had absolutely no reasons to do so? Maybe you can clarify who are these people that had no reason to vote for a party but did?
No doubt we'll be back onto pensions shortly
Well I tried to explain what I meant and why your point was incorrect, but some people don't really try to undertsand the point being made. People like you
Of course, as you subsequently explained your specific point related to Brexit and even Trump despite mentioning neither in your post that I replied to
Any thoughts yet who these people are who you stated had absolutely no reason to vote for the Tories but did?
@kentaddick point re the left wing of "I love democracy... as long as everyone votes the way I want them to" seems to still ring true to me regarding your good self. Even IF you got your point across clearly doesn't mean everyone will agree with you, even the fools that voted Tory but had absolutely no reason to do so nor does it mean you are correct just because it is your view.
the beauty of democracy and politics, everyone can form an opinion and vote as they see fit even if that opinion isn't the same as yours. There is no right or wrong vote despite what you may think or chose to write. Writing that there were people who voted a particular way and had absolutely no reason to do so makes it sound like you know better than them.......
Never understood why my grandparents and their contemporaries voted Tory. They never had two pennies to rub together but wouldn't vote for Labour.
I put it down a mentality of knowing your place and not understanding that a posh accent doesn't make you clever. I still think that some of this still applies. People still like to doff their caps.
Never understood why my grandparents and their contemporaries voted Tory. They never had two pennies to rub together but wouldn't vote for Labour.
I put it down a mentality of knowing your place and not understanding that a posh accent doesn't make you clever. I still think that some of this still applies. People still like to doff their caps.
or maybe they grew up, lived and fought in a world where they could see the devastating conclusions to left wing policies and didn't want to have to end up in the same world.
Convincing the working class that they speak for them has to be the most genius trick ever pulled.
Had this discussion with my gf a few days ago. Luckily for them, the right wing demographic covers traditional ways of thinking and racist ones too. Kinda a double win... where as the left pretty much just covers a liberal mindset and our country historically has never been left wing
There are those on the left who are just as racist and aggressive as those on the right. You just have to look on twitter and some of the replies on this thread..
Shine didn't mention aggression, there are some on the left who are aggressive, but fewer. And there are far fewer on the left who are racist.
Well, when some of their senior members are being suspended for anti Semitism and have links to groups that are violently anti Semitic then I'd beg to differ
You really believe that there are more racists on the left than the right? Honestly, you believe that? When racism, xenophobia and prejudice are the cornerstones of many right wing groups, you think there are more left wing racists than right? Really?
Never understood why my grandparents and their contemporaries voted Tory. They never had two pennies to rub together but wouldn't vote for Labour.
I put it down a mentality of knowing your place and not understanding that a posh accent doesn't make you clever. I still think that some of this still applies. People still like to doff their caps.
or maybe they grew up, lived and fought in a world where they could see the devastating conclusions to left wing policies and didn't want to have to end up in the same world.
Tell me - what policies did those that the majority of them fought against follow?
Comments
the Tories are a 'known quantity', both good and bad. Although I don't agree with everything they have done or will do, in the main they aren't a million miles off IMHO (see my original post on page 1). Austerity has probably gone too far in some respects but they have tried to balance that out for individuals/lower earners in particular with the increase in personal allowance and have progressively taxed the higher earners more to compensate, but it's the really low or non earners who have been hit too hard that they need to rectify. Some public sectors need greater financing but I'm also not one for simply throwing money at things, we also need to look at how we work/run things.
In my view I think people conveniently forget the increased taxation that has already taken place whether that's loss of the personal allowance or loss of child allowance, reduced tax allowance for pension contributions etc. Totally the right thing to do under the circumstances we found ourselves in. They could probably go a step further (I'd add 1p on all bands) but labours 5 & 10p increases were too much on a small group of people and took our progressive tax system to a level to far.
In comparison I didn't believe Labour could fund half of what they promised and I could see the country being worse off than we are now with them trying. Again it's just my opinion but taking taxation which in the main was to pay for a lot of the promises, in my industry they would have received less in tax than they do now from both companies & individuals. We'd have shipped out 80% of the business (and therefore profit) as well as a number of the higher paid staff were looking at their plans to go to Bermuda.
For me somewhere in-between the two would be ideal, but Labour have gone too far left for me and the Conservatives still need to move away a little more from the right to be ideal. If I'm in the centre, labour are about 100 miles left and conservatives 20 miles right, I don't see those gaps changing much in the short term.
I also felt that the people Corbyn has at his disposal were he to be in government are poor, he may have massively increased his popularity with the electorate but I'm not so sure in his own party, the sheer number of front bench moves since he became leader and those MP's who still wouldn't work for him I think are quite high. He's fishing in a very small pond of people. His two right hand people didn't fill me with any sort of joy, I loathe them both.
I don't think anyone agrees 100% with a party, well at least I don't nor have I ever done, I'm probably too opinionated but it's the reason each election I look at each on their merits and vote that way or if I'm pretty even (which I have been in the 90's/early 00's) i'll vote based on the local candidate.
https://lm.facebook.com/l.php?u=http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_59638608e4b02e9bdb0e2c77&h=ATOjPVn3FrK11SAm3EssY2wyMAsM-r4736at8h113ahq13J5d0fgvRAVACGfIRcyoRtsYLdkajDxTCBcv5qYjb_iyM9WQZiN5fyfshnIC9Qyez6CYW67UKF6JCzVAv0fPIAmHnac&enc=AZNKkLAY13U2F7grkQTitK5CvPRbUKHb3_A5Wjj806MNuCu-Am7xWtzGyHXPKJfmzpuKKwJFuZLBRzxOsocDTRRsn0RT1htXbJTiexfQnaz-zKIZ3cmXLcngl4PeqtTNZOkhqo3_HaF0tlHmS0BcxMVeIDzLM-xDg2Rubi6h0aS0BNRd-PSPRhmwCCqiBqkPbG9N3zdX4nxsaZ1dHnhZvMlM9xnDz0nqxM8EJKTv7i-PvEy5xBBvwSRMgxwwoko9geKd-heT1-ka092rVWN970TMliS_7Ft1Iq16hiUVA1nl3SjvXfpTFF9OJRtB-tCEEH-hLNgYWqt0k2zWPVMDBkry&s=1
I think the fat lady is not too close to singing just yet but she's on the way to the auditorium.
They'll have to get past the caricature that is Rees Mogg. Calls his child sixtus and says of Britain's divorce bill from the EU that we won't owe a 'single farthing'. It's like he still thinks we're living in 1217. Probably thinks the plague is due a comeback and the east India tea company still trade
Theresa May's naughtiest moment is running through a field of wheat. Boris Johnson talks like someone out of a Victorian comic. Jacob's kids are named like they're in a Jane Austen novel. Their MPs use outdated racial slurs. Their last campaigns have been almost entirely targeted at exploiting the average Brit's irrational fear of Jonny Foreigner and their propaganda looks like First World War slogans. And their entire Brexit plan seems to be a return to mercantilism.
The modern Tory party would have looked antiquated in 1947, not just 2017.
The title of this thread is how do the tories need to change? Well, they have fallen into the trap of complacency - you can't keep punching somebody in the back and blaming somebody else - there comes a time when they have had enough and work out it is you. There are a lot of tories who can see this now. The biggest thing that messed up the Tories getting their predicted landslide was the Labour party manifesto - much more so than the social care gaff. It wasn't an austerity light option, where Labour's previous position was, we'll hit you but not quite so hard! It was a manifesto for growth and fairness. Critics of it couldn't really disagree with any of it in principle, just challenge how we could afford it. Of course publishing the numbers behind the manifesto was crucial and something Labour would not have had the wit to do in the past.
One thing the Tories have to understand is that Corbyn is a great campagner, whether you agree with him or not. The tactics during the election were spot on. For instance, it is widely known that the leaking of the manifesto was tactical and it was a masterstroke. The coverage it got in the media - who love a good leak - was very advantageous and the Tories were not ready to attack it as they were focussing on the later launch. Having the figures to back up the statements was essential. The labour party ensured it had the most comprehensive costings of any manifesto previously. Having rallies where there were thousands of passionate supporters, not a twenty or thirty people who look like they were told to be there and handed a placard. It all built on creating something.
Now the Tories do not understimate Corbyn. But they are on the back foot. When they get their new leader they are going to have to jump to the left big time or they have lost. The last election set the ground the next election needs to be fought on and won. The Tories do know that they can't fight the next election with May. They have to find a leader who can match Corbyn's authenticity and persuaveness. That isn't going to be easy.
People will go where they are given hope. Previously the far right have benefitted the most, but Sanders in America and now Corbyn here are showing that this is ground the left can occupy. We should all be pleased about that because we certainly shoudn't want the equivalent of Le Penn in opposition. The reality of Labour's manifesto is that it is a social democratic one rather than a socialist one. Yes there are socialist leanings in some aspects, but it really isn't that left of centre, it is just that everything else has moved so far to the right. Is free university education a left wing policy? Well Thatcher didn't do anything to stop it and she wasn't Karl Marx! It was actually Blair who first introduced it in the first instance.
In terms of the railways - German rail is owned by a state owned company - the germans are hardly marxists. These are not left wing policies - just sensible ones. The crazy thing is that our railways and utilities are owned by state owned companies, it is just that they are German state owned comapnies, and French ones and even Chinese ones!
In terms of taxation - the corporation tax changes advocated by Labour would still see British companies paying less than comapnies do in far from left wing countries around Europe. And many many highly respected economists around the world say that Labour have the best policies for growth - which is what we should be trying to do with the economy. These are not just socialist economists, but people commenting on the best approach. You can pick through all the elements of the manifesto and make a clear case the LAbour party manifesto was around social justice rather than socialism.
And why would anybody be against social justice - even a Tory? Like I said in my previous post, they can say, it would be great but we can't afford it, but they can't say these are policies that they don't beleive in, unless thay don't believe in Social justice.
Someone like me? care to elaborate @MuttleyCAFC ?
So you didn't take your hat off to a party (the Tory's) that convinced people to vote for them that had absolutely no reasons to do so? Maybe you can clarify who are these people that had no reason to vote for a party but did?
No doubt we'll be back onto pensions shortly
Any thoughts yet who these people are who you stated had absolutely no reason to vote for the Tories but did?
@kentaddick point re the left wing of "I love democracy... as long as everyone votes the way I want them to" seems to still ring true to me regarding your good self. Even IF you got your point across clearly doesn't mean everyone will agree with you, even the fools that voted Tory but had absolutely no reason to do so
the beauty of democracy and politics, everyone can form an opinion and vote as they see fit even if that opinion isn't the same as yours. There is no right or wrong vote despite what you may think or chose to write. Writing that there were people who voted a particular way and had absolutely no reason to do so makes it sound like you know better than them.......
I put it down a mentality of knowing your place and not understanding that a posh accent doesn't make you clever. I still think that some of this still applies. People still like to doff their caps.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40556872