I think it is right to complain to the FA, in particular about her remarks and comparisons to racist chants. However, I fear she may have a point about criminal offences.......I'm assuming it was a criminal offence to forge her signature on the companies house resignation document?
That will be her argument.......
She would have to prove, without reasonable doubt, that it was a Charlton fan that done it. Good luck with that one Daisy.
And on the 'balance of probabilities' it was a Charlton fan. Upon balance, it was probably a Charlton fan.
When you call somebody a bastard for instance- you have to put a word in there before the bastard. Now you could put a swear word in, but the norm is to include a characteristic. So as I have a lack of hair, I am a bald bastard. Now if somebody calls me that, I think the point they are accentuating is that I am a bastard, not that I am bald, but the language demands something goes in there. The same could be said is somebody calls me a fat bastard. It is unlikely my weight is the reason they are providing this critique but something has to go in there. So adding Belgian in there should not be seen as a slight against Belgians. Many of us love a pint of Stella!
Ah yes, Stella. The gaseous, bulk produced, flavourless fizz of Belgian fame. Dig deeper, there's a whole host of wonderful beers in that country that make Stella taste like water.
When you call somebody a bastard for instance- you have to put a word in there before the bastard. Now you could put a swear word in, but the norm is to include a characteristic. So as I have a lack of hair, I am a bald bastard. Now if somebody calls me that, I think the point they are accentuating is that I am a bastard, not that I am bald, but the language demands something goes in there. The same could be said is somebody calls me a fat bastard. It is unlikely my weight is the reason they are providing this critique but something has to go in there. So adding Belgian in there should not be seen as a slight against Belgians. Many of us love a pint of Stella!
Ah yes, Stella. The gaseous, bulk produced, flavourless fizz of Belgian fame. Dig deeper, there's a whole host of wonderful beers in that country that make Stella taste like water.
I don't like my beer to taste of too much. It is all personal taste. I think Estrella is very smooth and that is why I like it and Stella is on that sort of line! My top 5 on draught would be 1) Estrella, 2) San Miguel 3) Menebrea 4) peroni and 5) Stella - I quite enjoyed the Jupiter in Belgium that I would put above Stella but I haven't seen it here.
I believe we should also be asking for a public apology.
Exactly, the Charlton Athletic Supporters Trust (CAST) have smoked Meire out on this issue. She continues to make wild statements which are unsupported by any evidence, some of which are beyond reason and now she tries to introduce the racism card into the equation.
To my knowledge she has never apologised once for her erroneous and deeply flawed comments. Now, hopefully, she is forced either to retract and apologise for her disgraceful outburst or argue her case before an inquiry panel and given her track record in presenting any kind of debate I believe that she would only dig an even deeper pit for herself within seconds of opening her mouth.
For once, do the honourable thing Meire and apologise to the fans of Charlton Athletic for your totally inappropriate, disproportionate and hurtful comments.
I think this is the first time ever I have agreed with someone using the phrase "racism card".
When you call somebody a bastard for instance- you have to put a word in there before the bastard. Now you could put a swear word in, but the norm is to include a characteristic. So as I have a lack of hair, I am a bald bastard. Now if somebody calls me that, I think the point they are accentuating is that I am a bastard, not that I am bald, but the language demands something goes in there. The same could be said is somebody calls me a fat bastard. It is unlikely my weight is the reason they are providing this critique but something has to go in there. So adding Belgian in there should not be seen as a slight against Belgians. Many of us love a pint of Stella!
Ah yes, Stella. The gaseous, bulk produced, flavourless fizz of Belgian fame. Dig deeper, there's a whole host of wonderful beers in that country that make Stella taste like water.
I don't like my beer to taste of too much. It is all personal taste. I think Estrella is very smooth and that is why I like it and Stella is on that sort of line! My top 5 on draught would be 1) Estrella, 2) San Miguel 3) Menebrea 4) peroni and 5) Stella - I quite enjoyed the Jupiter in Belgium that I would put above Stella but I haven't seen it here.
Ah ..... so you're telling us that you like gaseous, bulk produced, flavourless fizz.
When you call somebody a bastard for instance- you have to put a word in there before the bastard. Now you could put a swear word in, but the norm is to include a characteristic. So as I have a lack of hair, I am a bald bastard. Now if somebody calls me that, I think the point they are accentuating is that I am a bastard, not that I am bald, but the language demands something goes in there. The same could be said is somebody calls me a fat bastard. It is unlikely my weight is the reason they are providing this critique but something has to go in there. So adding Belgian in there should not be seen as a slight against Belgians. Many of us love a pint of Stella!
Ah yes, Stella. The gaseous, bulk produced, flavourless fizz of Belgian fame. Dig deeper, there's a whole host of wonderful beers in that country that make Stella taste like water.
I don't like my beer to taste of too much. It is all personal taste. I think Estrella is very smooth and that is why I like it and Stella is on that sort of line! My top 5 on draught would be 1) Estrella, 2) San Miguel 3) Menebrea 4) peroni and 5) Stella - I quite enjoyed the Jupiter in Belgium that I would put above Stella but I haven't seen it here.
Ah ..... so you're telling us that you like gaseous, bulk produced, flavourless fizz.
Anyway, back to the thread.
;o)
Yes, I do. I can't help it - I did try bitter for a while but I like lager and I don't like it to do too much other than refresh me and where appropriate compliment my meal!
I think it is right to complain to the FA, in particular about her remarks and comparisons to racist chants. However, I fear she may have a point about criminal offences.......I'm assuming it was a criminal offence to forge her signature on the companies house resignation document?
That will be her argument.......
She would have to prove, without reasonable doubt, that it was a Charlton fan that done it. Good luck with that one Daisy.
And on the 'balance of probabilities' it was a Charlton fan. Upon balance, it was probably a Charlton fan.
She knows a lot of Tottenham fans too you know. Taxi drivers taking her home? Could have told him lots of personal information whilst drunk. Would be easy for him to impersonate someone he spent 5 hours getting from the valley to North Greenwich station. And a £5k fare!
He supports charlton now though so you are probably right!
I'm assuming it was a criminal offence to forge her signature on the companies house resignation document?
That will be her argument.......
It is. But there's nothing else and this act has not been attributed to anyone as yet (although it's being looked into by a legal team )
As I pointed out recently,the club breached criminal law last weekend by selling tickets in the knowledge it was withholding information that might change the purchasers decision i.e those seats were now behind the Covered End Wall. Her forged resignation affected one person to little or no cost, the clubs breach potentially 1000's.
Obtaining money by false pretences is a crime which I think is the point being made by @Bournemouth Addick
It could be argued that selling restricted view seats without informing 'customers' is obtaining money by false pretences.
Anyway @Bournemouth Addick is on home turf with all this so I'm sure he will explain and elaborate further.
It's a civil dispute, at best - a dispute between two parties as to the quality of "product" delivered. Entry was allowed into the ground, a seat was provided and a view of the match was afforded. The fact that the view - or the "product" is not what was hoped for does not make it a case for Court 1 at the Bailey!
Not in the EU, anyway Len. ;o)
No. It is not purely a civil matter.
The Which link I provided was a very basic overview of the provisions of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008. It's triable either way with potential penalties of an unlimited fine and up to 2 years imprisonment per offence.
Reg 6 has the effect of creating an offence in the event a business omits material information in relation to a product and the effect of this is misleading. This is information which would affect the decision making of the average consumer.
The average consumer in the UK would not expect to buy a ticket for a match and turn up to find their view of the playing area is from behind the netting and poles we had in place at the weekend. The club knew they were going to do this and were under a straightforward obligation to pass on this information imo. The reasons behind the decision to put it up are irrelevant.
It's the same law that protects you from any business keeping important information from you e.g. the car you're interested in has been a write off, and was brought in to provide enhanced transparency in civil contracts by creating criminal sanctions.
Am I saying it's the crime of the century? Of course not but, potentially, there is some scope there for a criminal complaint to be made.
A quick reminder for anyone who still thinks "it's ok, because Belgian isn't a race":
Racialist chanting at football matches Section 3 Football Offences Act 1991 (as amended)
This offence is committed when a group of people, or one person acting alone, chants something of a racialist nature at a designated football match. "Racialist" means the same as "racist".
To prove this offence, the prosecution has to show that the chanting, which means the repeated uttering of words or sounds, was threatening, abusive or insulting to another person because of that person's colour, race, nationality (including citizenship) or ethnic or national origin.
Hope that's clear. Do not chant threats, abuse or insults at someone because of that person's nationality. It's a criminal offence.
In all other respects, I believe it's totally fair to criticise her for the enormous number of things she's done wrong. Her inept decision-making, her flawed reasoning, her dissembling, her deceit, her "smugness", her cowardice. Call her out for her lack of experience, lack of football knowledge, lack of senior staff. Point eh finger at her for her callous attitude to the fans and the club's history. Demonstrate how she's failed in the most important aspect of her job - recruitment.
If you have to, have a op at her dress sense.
But don't break the law by throwing racist chants or comments in her direction. Rise above it. It gives her more ammunition than she deserves.
When you call somebody a bastard for instance- you have to put a word in there before the bastard. Now you could put a swear word in, but the norm is to include a characteristic. So as I have a lack of hair, I am a bald bastard. Now if somebody calls me that, I think the point they are accentuating is that I am a bastard, not that I am bald, but the language demands something goes in there. The same could be said is somebody calls me a fat bastard. It is unlikely my weight is the reason they are providing this critique but something has to go in there. So adding Belgian in there should not be seen as a slight against Belgians. Many of us love a pint of Stella!
In my case, it'd probably be because it was my mum....
If it were scripted, there is clear intent to suggest that the abuse she has received is equivalent to racism.
Some of the abuse has been arguably sexist although if she were male there would have been equally offensive, or more offensive abuse.
She has been abused, and so should she be. She has been a total incompetent in a situation where very competent people are fired because of short term results.
She has no short term results meirely a long term failure.
Football is, as Katrien could have said if she understood the game and spent time thinking about what she wanted to say, a game of skill, fitness, organisation and fine margins where success between two teams often comes down to passion. Passion of the team and driven on by the passion of the fans.
Cultivating this passion within the team is the role of the manager, coaching and medical staff.
Assisting them, the CEO and other back office staff should be looking to build the fan base and support so that the enthusiasm of the support feeds into the team.
Unfortunately in every measure here we are bankrupt.
Oh, we are not financially bankrupt, but the regime has managed to deliver points deduction worthy bankruptcy on every measure that is important.
Staff (resigned), players (rubbish, disaffected or about to leave), fans (one of the most protracted fights against a fan base most people alive can remember).
The end of year report card was made worse by after year comments.
A quick reminder for anyone who still thinks "it's ok, because Belgian isn't a race":
Racialist chanting at football matches Section 3 Football Offences Act 1991 (as amended)
This offence is committed when a group of people, or one person acting alone, chants something of a racialist nature at a designated football match. "Racialist" means the same as "racist".
To prove this offence, the prosecution has to show that the chanting, which means the repeated uttering of words or sounds, was threatening, abusive or insulting to another person because of that person's colour, race, nationality (including citizenship) or ethnic or national origin.
Hope that's clear. Do not chant threats, abuse or insults at someone because of that person's nationality. It's a criminal offence.
In all other respects, I believe it's totally fair to criticise her for the enormous number of things she's done wrong. Her inept decision-making, her flawed reasoning, her dissembling, her deceit, her "smugness", her cowardice. Call her out for her lack of experience, lack of football knowledge, lack of senior staff. Point eh finger at her for her callous attitude to the fans and the club's history. Demonstrate how she's failed in the most important aspect of her job - recruitment.
If you have to, have a op at her dress sense.
But don't break the law by throwing racist chants or comments in her direction. Rise above it. It gives her more ammunition than she deserves.
But as offensive as some chants might be, the chants are not because of any race issue it is because they are destroying our club.
If the chants are offensive and aimed at them for no other reason than the fact that they are Belgians then it would be illegal. This isn't the case so it isn't breaking this law.
I don't understand why we just can't drop the references to nationality and sex. The guidelines clearly bundle them together, so we're walking a fine line.
We're not protesting because she's a woman, or because they are Belgian, then don't mention it.
Using the term in a seemingly derogatory way allows them to introduce distracting arguments rather than address the underlying issues
When you call somebody a bastard for instance- you have to put a word in there before the bastard. Now you could put a swear word in, but the norm is to include a characteristic. So as I have a lack of hair, I am a bald bastard. Now if somebody calls me that, I think the point they are accentuating is that I am a bastard, not that I am bald, but the language demands something goes in there. The same could be said is somebody calls me a fat bastard. It is unlikely my weight is the reason they are providing this critique but something has to go in there. So adding Belgian in there should not be seen as a slight against Belgians. Many of us love a pint of Stella!
But in the real world we know it's not really "material" or "misleading", as much as we may want to think there's a court summons beckoning.
I'm all for giving them shit, but a criminal case would never fly.
With respect I disagree. You are making an assumption that only two options are available to the authorities concerned, do nothing or prosecute. In the actual real world a range of enforcement options are available and of course the vast, vast majority of these sort of breaches are dealt with without recourse to the courts. Most of these options are aimed at preventing further breaches occuring of course.
The club is currently trying to sell S/T's all over the ground. It is highly likely protests will continue hence equally likely that next year the club will do this again at some point. If you're about to renew (yes I know) don't you think it's an important consideration to know about the club's intentions before doing so? Maybe they're looking to make the netting more permanently or maybe it'll be extended to other areas just for example? This is definitely material information which would affect the average purchasers decision making process. No other club is currently acting in this way after all so it's difficult to argue that this is "normal".
I posted my thoughts on this as part of a wider discussion about KM speaking publically about criminal acts against her. Assuming she is referring to the Companies House resignation there is no doubt that any decision around prosecution in that case would fail both the evidential and the public interest tests. My point is that her own behaviour, in not disclosing plans to stick that netting up whilst continuing to sell tickets, would be far more likely to pass both tests given the potential to mislead 100's if not 1000's of supporters. This is only of course only considering the prosecution sanction and ignoring all the other options in between.
When you call somebody a bastard for instance- you have to put a word in there before the bastard. Now you could put a swear word in, but the norm is to include a characteristic. So as I have a lack of hair, I am a bald bastard. Now if somebody calls me that, I think the point they are accentuating is that I am a bastard, not that I am bald, but the language demands something goes in there. The same could be said is somebody calls me a fat bastard. It is unlikely my weight is the reason they are providing this critique but something has to go in there. So adding Belgian in there should not be seen as a slight against Belgians. Many of us love a pint of Stella!
So in the context of said criminal acts, are you saying the person we are looking for is a bald, fat, Stella drinking Belgian bastard?
Possibly, but it sounds a bit too much like me and I definitely didn't do it! Mind you I think I prefer Estrella now.
A quick reminder for anyone who still thinks "it's ok, because Belgian isn't a race":
Racialist chanting at football matches Section 3 Football Offences Act 1991 (as amended)
This offence is committed when a group of people, or one person acting alone, chants something of a racialist nature at a designated football match. "Racialist" means the same as "racist".
To prove this offence, the prosecution has to show that the chanting, which means the repeated uttering of words or sounds, was threatening, abusive or insulting to another person because of that person's colour, race, nationality (including citizenship) or ethnic or national origin.
Hope that's clear. Do not chant threats, abuse or insults at someone because of that person's nationality. It's a criminal offence.
In all other respects, I believe it's totally fair to criticise her for the enormous number of things she's done wrong. Her inept decision-making, her flawed reasoning, her dissembling, her deceit, her "smugness", her cowardice. Call her out for her lack of experience, lack of football knowledge, lack of senior staff. Point eh finger at her for her callous attitude to the fans and the club's history. Demonstrate how she's failed in the most important aspect of her job - recruitment.
If you have to, have a op at her dress sense.
But don't break the law by throwing racist chants or comments in her direction. Rise above it. It gives her more ammunition than she deserves.
Racialist isn't a real word is it? And no matter what it says us (living in England) can not be racist toward Belgium as give or take a bit of multi-multiculturalism we are the same race. We could be being nationalist or prejudice.
Personally I am against the gender and nationality based abuse though. Lots of other things are fair game though.
Comments
Anyway, back to the thread.
;o)
He supports charlton now though so you are probably right!
Where to guv?
Racialist chanting at football matches Section 3 Football Offences Act 1991 (as amended)
This offence is committed when a group of people, or one person acting alone, chants something of a racialist nature at a designated football match. "Racialist" means the same as "racist".
To prove this offence, the prosecution has to show that the chanting, which means the repeated uttering of words or sounds, was threatening, abusive or insulting to another person because of that person's colour, race, nationality (including citizenship) or ethnic or national origin.
Hope that's clear. Do not chant threats, abuse or insults at someone because of that person's nationality. It's a criminal offence.
In all other respects, I believe it's totally fair to criticise her for the enormous number of things she's done wrong. Her inept decision-making, her flawed reasoning, her dissembling, her deceit, her "smugness", her cowardice. Call her out for her lack of experience, lack of football knowledge, lack of senior staff. Point eh finger at her for her callous attitude to the fans and the club's history. Demonstrate how she's failed in the most important aspect of her job - recruitment.
If you have to, have a op at her dress sense.
But don't break the law by throwing racist chants or comments in her direction. Rise above it. It gives her more ammunition than she deserves.
If it were scripted, there is clear intent to suggest that the abuse she has received is equivalent to racism.
Some of the abuse has been arguably sexist although if she were male there would have been equally offensive, or more offensive abuse.
She has been abused, and so should she be. She has been a total incompetent in a situation where very competent people are fired because of short term results.
She has no short term results meirely a long term failure.
Football is, as Katrien could have said if she understood the game and spent time thinking about what she wanted to say, a game of skill, fitness, organisation and fine margins where success between two teams often comes down to passion. Passion of the team and driven on by the passion of the fans.
Cultivating this passion within the team is the role of the manager, coaching and medical staff.
Assisting them, the CEO and other back office staff should be looking to build the fan base and support so that the enthusiasm of the support feeds into the team.
Unfortunately in every measure here we are bankrupt.
Oh, we are not financially bankrupt, but the regime has managed to deliver points deduction worthy bankruptcy on every measure that is important.
Staff (resigned), players (rubbish, disaffected or about to leave), fans (one of the most protracted fights against a fan base most people alive can remember).
The end of year report card was made worse by after year comments.
Katrien, you will go down in history.
If the chants are offensive and aimed at them for no other reason than the fact that they are Belgians then it would be illegal. This isn't the case so it isn't breaking this law.
We're not protesting because she's a woman, or because they are Belgian, then don't mention it.
Using the term in a seemingly derogatory way allows them to introduce distracting arguments rather than address the underlying issues
That's almost harder than not attending a game!
The club is currently trying to sell S/T's all over the ground. It is highly likely protests will continue hence equally likely that next year the club will do this again at some point. If you're about to renew (yes I know) don't you think it's an important consideration to know about the club's intentions before doing so? Maybe they're looking to make the netting more permanently or maybe it'll be extended to other areas just for example? This is definitely material information which would affect the average purchasers decision making process. No other club is currently acting in this way after all so it's difficult to argue that this is "normal".
I posted my thoughts on this as part of a wider discussion about KM speaking publically about criminal acts against her. Assuming she is referring to the Companies House resignation there is no doubt that any decision around prosecution in that case would fail both the evidential and the public interest tests. My point is that her own behaviour, in not disclosing plans to stick that netting up whilst continuing to sell tickets, would be far more likely to pass both tests given the potential to mislead 100's if not 1000's of supporters. This is only of course only considering the prosecution sanction and ignoring all the other options in between.
bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34402483
Racialist isn't a real word is it? And no matter what it says us (living in England) can not be racist toward Belgium as give or take a bit of multi-multiculturalism we are the same race. We could be being nationalist or prejudice.
Personally I am against the gender and nationality based abuse though. Lots of other things are fair game though.
isn't that why we keep asking for it back?