I know RD is making us a laughing stock but from the amount of fans saying they are not going to Charlton till the club is sold are we not killing Charlton ourselves. Its alright saying that they will come back as and when RD sells the club but with west ham offering cheap tickets how many fans will ever return. I'd sooner have a club still playing than no club at all tho I still want RD out
Very true, I too have thought this a number of time, doesn't mean I don't want them out coz I do we all do! Believe me if I could go to the valley I would but kids commitments at present
From a purely selfish point of view, I hate not being able to visit The Valley. I totally know what you mean about the sponsorship derailing, but I view it like giving Chemotherapy to a Cancer patient. Rat and Pinocchio are a cancer that is quickly killing Charlton. If their revenue streams are not almost totally closed down, Charlton is finished. Get the Belgian poison out, and rebuild.
Trouble is now, it's not a remotely enjoyable way to spend time and money. I coped with Selhurst etc etc and some poor seasons, but there were highs between the lows, even if not many at times. But this is unrelenting crap against a backdrop of disrespect from awful owners and executives. I can't justify just pouring good money into a bottomless pit.
Not to mention the amount of his "investments" and the legacy that they will have on our clubs finances. People mention Richard Murray sticking about, but at the very least we all need to remember that his debts are - at this rate and under these owners - never likely to be paid. Can you see Roland being quite so generous with the debt we owe him, at the interest rate he has agreed with himself? I dont.
In SE7 itself, there is no real knowledge regarding how to run a football club, nor a business of any complexity. This current period is of potential importance for the long term future of the club, and as such, fans need to do everything they can to disrupt the regime and force them out.
This is really important, and something that is difficult to gauge without being able to see the financials, but do we know if the money he's put in has been in the form of loans? Or if it has gone down as cost of operations (i.e. running at a loss)? I'm talking about concrete knowledge (which again I assume is hard to come by and may not be shareable) as opposed to speculation.
LuckyReds, I agree with you that if these are loans, we are not in a good spot.
I agree completely, hopefully I've jumped the gun somewhat here - but perhaps we can get some more facts within the next few weeks.
The reason I'm suspecting the worse with regards to the finances is due to Duchatelet's spat with Bruno Venanzi, at the very least the accusations were that Roland had, albeit legally, 'emptied the coffers' of Standard Liege prior to selling the club; very little in regards to his investment though. Roland has denied this, as well as denied the use of invoicing via tax havens.
What we do know though, is by Roland's own admission, they are liable for EUR10,000,000 paid within 5 years (presumably as part of the clubs EUR19,000,000 long term liabilities) - and operated at a loss of EUR11,000,000 in the latest set of accounts. This left Venanzi is a difficult position with a lot of immediate cashflow issues.
I've got a copy of their finances knocking about here somewhere, as I was going to see how much information that would provide - can't say I've looked at them yet though (nor do I really understand a great deal!).
I agree completely, hopefully I've jumped the gun somewhat here - but perhaps we can get some more facts within the next few weeks.
The reason I'm suspecting the worse with regards to the finances is due to Duchatelet's spat with Bruno Venanzi, at the very least the accusations were that Roland had, albeit legally, 'emptied the coffers' of Standard Liege prior to selling the club; very little in regards to his investment though. Roland has denied this, as well as denied the use of invoicing via tax havens.
What we do know though, is by Roland's own admission, they are liable for EUR10,000,000 paid within 5 years (presumably as part of the clubs EUR19,000,000 long term liabilities) - and operated at a loss of EUR11,000,000 in the latest set of accounts. This left Venanzi is a difficult position with a lot of immediate cashflow issues.
I've got a copy of their finances knocking about here somewhere, as I was going to see how much information that would provide - can't say I've looked at them yet though (nor do I really understand a great deal!).
Thanks, I really appreciate the insight. Do you really have their financials? If so, I'd be happy to take a look. No guarantee I could make sense of them, but I could probably track down someone who could.
It's all hard to gauge really. It sounds like the track record isn't good, for many reasons, from his time at Liege. That said, claiming Roland "emptied the coffers" could be a way of Venanzi trying to throw blame on the old regime. It could also be completely true, and be as a result of Roland paying himself a huge wage, or taking in money from the club, or simple financial mismanagement, which wouldn't be surprising at all.
If he is loaning money to the club, it would certainly fall in with how many other owners treat their investments.
The part that scares me, above and beyond all this, is that owning a football club in England right now is incredibly expensive and incredibly difficult, even for those with the best of intentions. Just look at Bolton. The amount of speculation that has to go in before one can accumulate is ridiculous, and not having FFP that is tied to points deductions only makes it worse. Tony Fernandes has spent tens of millions over the few years to finish in the bottom half of the championship. Mid table finishes for Brentford, Forest, and Cardiff will come with a huge price tag for foreign owners.
In the Premier league, I want to say that only five or so clubs have operated on a yearly profit in the last few years: Spurs, Arsenal, Chelsea, and Man City (and the latter two after ridiculous investment). United would be in there too if it weren't for the Glazer debt. This could be somewhat out of date, as the teams' books are usually released 12-18 months after the fact.
Sorry for rambling, my point is this is a rotten game and an unsustainable system (especially in the second tier) at the best of times. However our current finances are structured, and whatever our debts may be, we're already going in at a disadvantage not having a foreign owner willing to throw tens of millions at us to get to at least championship stability. It will take a lot for someone to bring us back from all this.
I understand the sentiments of the OP although don't agree with it. Reality is just like the exhile we will lose supporters but as previously stated the true fans won't go. I can see a lot of our younger fans giving up and going elsewhere but the second, third, fourth and higher generation of young fans I hope will be better led. My daughter said to me yesterday "I think you need to find another team to support" she then got a history lesson. It's up to us long standing fans to keep the younger generation interested. Obviously the longer Roland Rat digs his heels in the harder it is and the more emotionally draining it becomes.
I'm so sad about this whole situation. I hate this feeling of derailing things the club are doing especially as some appear to be genuinely positive like football for a fiver, school tickets and free travel. On the other hand I am furious that the Belgians have made repeated basic errors and been pig headed in not changing their ways. I just want it to end and to go back to supporting the club and encouraging others to do so too through things like football for a fiver. We've had hard times before but we were always all together in it with a common goal, club and fans. That's not the case this time and it all feels so odd. As results get worse the gap between fans and club widens. Where now? Does Rd see all this and make a genuine effort to change things? I think whatever he does now he can't get fans back onside. So he must sell and walk away and we can start afresh next year. Please .
With regards to loosing fans and getting them back, I think the "Selhurst years" had an effect - I think there is a generation missing from our support. This current regime is going to make this happen again - we've heard it on this board - teenagers and younger fans are turning their backs on the club and they may never come back. I'm not sure how we can combat that.
Comments
The reason I'm suspecting the worse with regards to the finances is due to Duchatelet's spat with Bruno Venanzi, at the very least the accusations were that Roland had, albeit legally, 'emptied the coffers' of Standard Liege prior to selling the club; very little in regards to his investment though. Roland has denied this, as well as denied the use of invoicing via tax havens.
What we do know though, is by Roland's own admission, they are liable for EUR10,000,000 paid within 5 years (presumably as part of the clubs EUR19,000,000 long term liabilities) - and operated at a loss of EUR11,000,000 in the latest set of accounts. This left Venanzi is a difficult position with a lot of immediate cashflow issues.
I've got a copy of their finances knocking about here somewhere, as I was going to see how much information that would provide - can't say I've looked at them yet though (nor do I really understand a great deal!).
It's all hard to gauge really. It sounds like the track record isn't good, for many reasons, from his time at Liege. That said, claiming Roland "emptied the coffers" could be a way of Venanzi trying to throw blame on the old regime. It could also be completely true, and be as a result of Roland paying himself a huge wage, or taking in money from the club, or simple financial mismanagement, which wouldn't be surprising at all.
If he is loaning money to the club, it would certainly fall in with how many other owners treat their investments.
The part that scares me, above and beyond all this, is that owning a football club in England right now is incredibly expensive and incredibly difficult, even for those with the best of intentions. Just look at Bolton. The amount of speculation that has to go in before one can accumulate is ridiculous, and not having FFP that is tied to points deductions only makes it worse. Tony Fernandes has spent tens of millions over the few years to finish in the bottom half of the championship. Mid table finishes for Brentford, Forest, and Cardiff will come with a huge price tag for foreign owners.
In the Premier league, I want to say that only five or so clubs have operated on a yearly profit in the last few years: Spurs, Arsenal, Chelsea, and Man City (and the latter two after ridiculous investment). United would be in there too if it weren't for the Glazer debt. This could be somewhat out of date, as the teams' books are usually released 12-18 months after the fact.
Sorry for rambling, my point is this is a rotten game and an unsustainable system (especially in the second tier) at the best of times. However our current finances are structured, and whatever our debts may be, we're already going in at a disadvantage not having a foreign owner willing to throw tens of millions at us to get to at least championship stability. It will take a lot for someone to bring us back from all this.