The UK makes absolutely nothing of any consequence any more, our natural resources production is either shut down or can be done cheaper elsewhere, we import most of our food rather than grow it because supermarkets like it, and that which is grown here is heavily subsidised, and leaving the EU would leave us on the outside looking in as far as trade arrangements.
It's all well and good having a knowledge and services economy, but - for starters - by definition, that economy only rewards the brightest and best and - looking out of my window in sunny Lancashire, I don't see many rocket engineers, programmers or neuroscientists. I see people who just want to do a day's work for a living and be paid for it (although I also see a bunch of feckless scroungers, but I digress)
In short, even setting aside the arguments about sovereignty, migration, political identity and globalisation, we'd be fucked if we left.
The UK makes absolutely nothing of any consequence any more, our natural resources production is either shut down or can be done cheaper elsewhere, we import most of our food rather than grow it because supermarkets like it, and that which is grown here is heavily subsidised, and leaving the EU would leave us on the outside looking in as far as trade arrangements.
It's all well and good having a knowledge and services economy, but - for starters - by definition, that economy only rewards the brightest and best and - looking out of my window in sunny Lancashire, I don't see many rocket engineers, programmers or neuroscientists. I see people who just want to do a day's work for a living and be paid for it (although I also see a bunch of feckless scroungers, but I digress)
In short, even setting aside the arguments about sovereignty, migration, political identity and globalisation, we'd be fucked if we left.
But LA those same people seem to be the same ones that believe they are worse off due to the influx of migrants and if the out campaign focuses on that those very same people will probably vote to leave
The UK makes absolutely nothing of any consequence any more, our natural resources production is either shut down or can be done cheaper elsewhere, we import most of our food rather than grow it because supermarkets like it, and that which is grown here is heavily subsidised, and leaving the EU would leave us on the outside looking in as far as trade arrangements.
It's all well and good having a knowledge and services economy, but - for starters - by definition, that economy only rewards the brightest and best and - looking out of my window in sunny Lancashire, I don't see many rocket engineers, programmers or neuroscientists. I see people who just want to do a day's work for a living and be paid for it (although I also see a bunch of feckless scroungers, but I digress)
In short, even setting aside the arguments about sovereignty, migration, political identity and globalisation, we'd be fucked if we left.
But LA those same people seem to be the same ones that believe they are worse off due to the influx of migrants and if the out campaign focuses on that those very same people will probably vote to leave
What I don't understand is why so few businesses seem to be explaining the likely costs of a British exit to their employees. Even if it's just the period of uncertainty followed by whatever the best negotiated exit route position is.
I don't know what percentage of the voting population works for a firm that imports/exports goods or services somewhere in the supply chain. got to be pretty high.
The EU has transformed my life and those around me, those who became friends in the late 80s before the collapse of Communism. The EU - the desire to be part of it, to be Europeans and not minions of Russia - has transformed the CEE countries. When I first visited Czechoslovakia, my country had nuclear missiles pointed at the place, and they had them pointed at us. Now my Czech wife and I gleefully cycle and ski around the border regions where those missiles were stationed, and cross the border for lunch at spots which people died trying to breach before November 1989. Even now, as I gaze out of the window while writing this; from my own home, which we bought from the last Communist Mayor of Prague, and transformed into a comfortable and beautiful house I would never have been able to get in London, across to the other houses which are either transformed or at least allowing people to live in peace and tranquility like anyone in the UK; when I remind myself this was Czechoslovakia, a place we feared to even enter - this is staggering to consider, when you stop and do so.
The EU itself cannot be said to be the main entity which caused the fall of the Wall. It was what came next that was important, and which I lived through here. The aspiration to be "European" again pushed the Czechs to adopt "EU norms" in order to qualify for membership. These changes were positive in almost every aspect of Czech daily life. I regret that the EU wasn't a bit tougher on Romania and Bulgaria before letting them in. But now even Serbia is on the same path, this country that triggered a killing field in Europe that most of us on here are quite old enough to remember.
I'm proud to call myself a European as much as I remain proud to be British. Whether it was caused by learning about the Prague Spring in my history lessons, or listening to Golden Earring or Kraftwerk on RNI while the British government tried to jam it, I fell in love with Europe. This love affair defines my life.
I don't expect this to move anyone else. That wasn't what NLA asked us to do in this thread. But I hope it explains my passion for the issue.
I watched David Cameron on Andrew Marr this morning and found myself in a kind of weird position of disagreeing with him, but still intend to vote to stay. it was strange because he banged on about keeping something he called 'sovereignty', and avoiding 'ever closer union' and i found myself thinking but I wouldn't mind that would I? Sacrificing this ethereal thing called sovereignty is appealing to me, as is the notion of ever closer union. So weirdly the things Cameron were promoting as triumphs I was thinking well it doesn't feel like that to me. As I have said previously a French nuclear reactor going into meltdown near Calais would be our problem too by din't of geography alone, you can't close the boarders to stuff like that, and co-operation would be the best way forward, rather than checking nuclear pollution for a passport or an entry visa. I really do see the case for either option, but I reckon I must be in a tiny minority where I think Cameron has not made much of a case for staying in, but I will support his aspirations anyway.
Where will we be able to get the facts not bullshit from though I want all the info with the positives the negatives and the outcome possibilities based on staying and leaving
Will there be anywhere that issues this info in a non biased way
Unfortunately, there will be nowhere to get "facts" because there aren't any. The best you can hope for are informed opinions and, perhaps, many of those you can make yourself. Take for example the financial services sector - a huge contributor to the UK's economy. It is, currently, the largest exporter of financial services in the World. More Euros are traded in London than anywhere else. What happens if we stay in? Presumably the status quo remains. If we leave, who knows? But, take Deutsche Bank as an example, would it keep its operations: asset management, global banking, corporate, etc. here or move them back to Frankfurt? Is it a coincidence that Citigroup, the US giant, while employing most of its European staff in the UK, has just moved its HQ to Dublin? Any significant movement out of such highly paid staff and the financial contribution they make would be a catastrophe. Losses would dwarf the costs of paying a couple of thousand Romanians benefits or being a net contributor to the EU coffers. But that's the problem comparing the known issues of being "in" with the unknown quantities of being"out".
I'm still an "in". I think, depressingly, we are in for a long campaign focussing on the negatives rather than the positives from both sides. But, when the dust settles, I'm of the view that the voters built-in bias to " loss aversion" will win the day. This refers to voters tendency to strongly prefer avoiding losses rather than acquiring gains. Studies suggest that losses are twice as powerful psychologically as gains. In short, better the devil you know.
Another reply to the original question. It doesn't really make any difference to me either way.
But I am definitely going to vote 'stay'. The thought of my son applying for his dream job in Rome, Berlin or Prague and being told that by law the job must preferentially go to any suitable [ Romanian, French, German, ...Scottish?, ....Turkish? ] candidate is what decides me.
Or I imagine my son running a company in England and desperately trying to recruit the best creative staff but being told he must employ English or Welsh people.
I'm thinking ten - twenty years ahead. I don't want my generation to remembered for abandoning their children as outsiders because we didn't always get our own way when things were going well for us.
Another reply to the original question. It doesn't really make any difference to me either way.
But I am definitely going to vote 'stay'. The thought of my son applying for his dream job in Rome, Berlin or Prague and being told that by law the job must preferentially go to any suitable [ Romanian, French, German, ...Scottish?, ....Turkish? ] candidate is what decides me.
Or I imagine my son running a company in England and desperately trying to recruit the best creative staff but being told he must employ English or Welsh people.
I'm thinking ten - twenty years ahead. I don't want my generation to remembered for abandoning their children as outsiders because we didn't always get our own way when things were going well for us.
If we're in the single market then your son can work anywhere in the single market and can employ anyone within the single market. Why is this so hard to understand?
Where will we be able to get the facts not bullshit from though I want all the info with the positives the negatives and the outcome possibilities based on staying and leaving
Will there be anywhere that issues this info in a non biased way
Unfortunately, there will be nowhere to get "facts" because there aren't any. The best you can hope for are informed opinions and, perhaps, many of those you can make yourself. Take for example the financial services sector - a huge contributor to the UK's economy. It is, currently, the largest exporter of financial services in the World. More Euros are traded in London than anywhere else. What happens if we stay in? Presumably the status quo remains. If we leave, who knows? But, take Deutsche Bank as an example, would it keep its operations: asset management, global banking, corporate, etc. here or move them back to Frankfurt? Is it a coincidence that Citigroup, the US giant, while employing most of its European staff in the UK, has just moved its HQ to Dublin? Any significant movement out of such highly paid staff and the financial contribution they make would be a catastrophe. Losses would dwarf the costs of paying a couple of thousand Romanians benefits or being a net contributor to the EU coffers. But that's the problem comparing the known issues of being "in" with the unknown quantities of being"out".
I'm still an "in". I think, depressingly, we are in for a long campaign focussing on the negatives rather than the positives from both sides. But, when the dust settles, I'm of the view that the voters built-in bias to " loss aversion" will win the day. This refers to voters tendency to strongly prefer avoiding losses rather than acquiring gains. Studies suggest that losses are twice as powerful psychologically as gains. In short, better the devil you know.
I'm in the undecided camp but I think you make a good point about the devil you know.
I get the feeling that as we get closer to the day there will be more messages about the risk of the unknown and more statements from big and small businesses warning of the dangers of leaving.
Going to be very close as it was in Scotland imho.
But British people go to work in America/Australia all the time? If he's good enough, he'll get a work permit and be fine.
Wrong. It's not about being "good enough" in those countries. When I considered moving to Australia, having aleady started to develop a decent career in advertising (and with lots of agencies in Sydney looking for good people) I was told officially that Australia didn't want the likes of me. But if I was a carpenter or a professional cook, welcome to Oz.
In because I, like many people, enjoy the benefits of free movement to work and travel in EU countries. I have taken advantage of this to make a career for myself with the British Council, learn a new language and meet people from all around Europe. I can't imagine I would have bothered if I had to apply for a Visa to do it, like I would have to for the USA despite having an American wife.
That's my personal reason but I truly believe that this type of experience can be a force for good in Britain's relationship with Europe. We must be able to work with our European neighbours and not isolate ourselves whilst trying to recreate the Age of Empire.
On another note, does anyone else suspect that the whole EU referendum is simply a smokescreen to deflect from the Government's problems/plans at home (I.e the Health Service)? Cameron presenting himself as the champion of the British working people is quite laughable as well. Corbyn's leadership looks completely ineffective on the referendum, playing right into Cameron's hands.
I just come back from a nice luncheon with my accountant and him being very happy with how my business has gone in the first 18mths, we turn the talk to this in out of EU debate, he is minted done well for himself and someone who I trust with guidance for whats right for my company, he said out it makes no difference to you being in, infact it may help young enterprises as the first government in control should we leave will be keen to show that Britain can work alone and can be built with small business and prosper, as such there may be very supportive tax reliefs and finance support from the government to enable growth in small business enterprise,
We have a day set in the diary for accounts filing where no doubt I will get to understand more but he did say that ut was worth being in once upon a time when it was all about the finance and trade cant remember what he called it, but then he said it changed to this EU that we see now and is so far from what it was sold to the public as intially that its unrecognisable
I just come back from a nice luncheon with my accountant and him being very happy with how my business has gone in the first 18mths, we turn the talk to this in out of EU debate, he is minted done well for himself and someone who I trust with guidance for whats right for my company, he said out it makes no difference to you being in, infact it may help young enterprises as the first government in control should we leave will be keen to show that Britain can work alone and can be built with small business and prosper, as such there may be very supportive tax reliefs and finance support from the government to enable growth in small business enterprise,
We have a day set in the diary for accounts filing where no doubt I will get to understand more but he did say that ut was worth being in once upon a time when it was all about the finance and trade cant remember what he called it, but then he said it changed to this EU that we see now and is so far from what it was sold to the public as intially that its unrecognisable
But did you ask him about how you won that piece of business? With great respect to your accountant, he probably wouldn't have a view on that which has much weight. It would not be his area of expertise. As for
there may be very supportive tax reliefs and finance support from the government to enable growth in small business enterprise,
Well isn't that what the government should be doing anyway? EU membership does not stop them. Why do you think Germany has so many thriving SME's. If our government diverted their attention away from the City for a moment, and started taxing the Google's and Facebook's correctly, that programme could start tomorrow. Sod all to do with the EU (except that the EU can help them tax the Facebook scam-merchants)
My questions were more based around what would I need to do if we ended up out of the EU with regards to that contract, I will get a better set of questions to pose to him pa
Lunchtime meets with people that like bubbles and who have their own cellar full of them gets me very quickly back to red cheeked and smiley and no goid forv sensible conversation
Comments
The UK makes absolutely nothing of any consequence any more, our natural resources production is either shut down or can be done cheaper elsewhere, we import most of our food rather than grow it because supermarkets like it, and that which is grown here is heavily subsidised, and leaving the EU would leave us on the outside looking in as far as trade arrangements.
It's all well and good having a knowledge and services economy, but - for starters - by definition, that economy only rewards the brightest and best and - looking out of my window in sunny Lancashire, I don't see many rocket engineers, programmers or neuroscientists. I see people who just want to do a day's work for a living and be paid for it (although I also see a bunch of feckless scroungers, but I digress)
In short, even setting aside the arguments about sovereignty, migration, political identity and globalisation, we'd be fucked if we left.
But LA those same people seem to be the same ones that believe they are worse off due to the influx of migrants and if the out campaign focuses on that those very same people will probably vote to leave
I don't know what percentage of the voting population works for a firm that imports/exports goods or services somewhere in the supply chain. got to be pretty high.
The EU has transformed my life and those around me, those who became friends in the late 80s before the collapse of Communism. The EU - the desire to be part of it, to be Europeans and not minions of Russia - has transformed the CEE countries. When I first visited Czechoslovakia, my country had nuclear missiles pointed at the place, and they had them pointed at us. Now my Czech wife and I gleefully cycle and ski around the border regions where those missiles were stationed, and cross the border for lunch at spots which people died trying to breach before November 1989. Even now, as I gaze out of the window while writing this; from my own home, which we bought from the last Communist Mayor of Prague, and transformed into a comfortable and beautiful house I would never have been able to get in London, across to the other houses which are either transformed or at least allowing people to live in peace and tranquility like anyone in the UK; when I remind myself this was Czechoslovakia, a place we feared to even enter - this is staggering to consider, when you stop and do so.
The EU itself cannot be said to be the main entity which caused the fall of the Wall. It was what came next that was important, and which I lived through here. The aspiration to be "European" again pushed the Czechs to adopt "EU norms" in order to qualify for membership. These changes were positive in almost every aspect of Czech daily life. I regret that the EU wasn't a bit tougher on Romania and Bulgaria before letting them in. But now even Serbia is on the same path, this country that triggered a killing field in Europe that most of us on here are quite old enough to remember.
I'm proud to call myself a European as much as I remain proud to be British. Whether it was caused by learning about the Prague Spring in my history lessons, or listening to Golden Earring or Kraftwerk on RNI while the British government tried to jam it, I fell in love with Europe. This love affair defines my life.
I don't expect this to move anyone else. That wasn't what NLA asked us to do in this thread. But I hope it explains my passion for the issue.
That there is somewhere that the arguments for and against are available
Ideally not Charlton Life but for now for me it is as good a place as anywhere to look
I watched David Cameron on Andrew Marr this morning and found myself in a kind of weird position of disagreeing with him, but still intend to vote to stay.
it was strange because he banged on about keeping something he called 'sovereignty', and avoiding 'ever closer union' and i found myself thinking but I wouldn't mind that would I? Sacrificing this ethereal thing called sovereignty is appealing to me, as is the notion of ever closer union.
So weirdly the things Cameron were promoting as triumphs I was thinking well it doesn't feel like that to me. As I have said previously a French nuclear reactor going into meltdown near Calais would be our problem too by din't of geography alone, you can't close the boarders to stuff like that, and co-operation would be the best way forward, rather than checking nuclear pollution for a passport or an entry visa.
I really do see the case for either option, but I reckon I must be in a tiny minority where I think Cameron has not made much of a case for staying in, but I will support his aspirations anyway.
This is a tricky and tough issue in my view.
Take for example the financial services sector - a huge contributor to the UK's economy. It is, currently, the largest exporter of financial services in the World. More Euros are traded in London than anywhere else. What happens if we stay in? Presumably the status quo remains. If we leave, who knows? But, take Deutsche Bank as an example, would it keep its operations: asset management, global banking, corporate, etc. here or move them back to Frankfurt? Is it a coincidence that Citigroup, the US giant, while employing most of its European staff in the UK, has just moved its HQ to Dublin?
Any significant movement out of such highly paid staff and the financial contribution they make would be a catastrophe. Losses would dwarf the costs of paying a couple of thousand Romanians benefits or being a net contributor to the EU coffers.
But that's the problem comparing the known issues of being "in" with the unknown quantities of being"out".
I'm still an "in". I think, depressingly, we are in for a long campaign focussing on the negatives rather than the positives from both sides.
But, when the dust settles, I'm of the view that the voters built-in bias to " loss aversion" will win the day. This refers to voters tendency to strongly prefer avoiding losses rather than acquiring gains. Studies suggest that losses are twice as powerful psychologically as gains.
In short, better the devil you know.
But I am definitely going to vote 'stay'. The thought of my son applying for his dream job in Rome, Berlin or Prague and being told that by law the job must preferentially go to any suitable [ Romanian, French, German, ...Scottish?, ....Turkish? ] candidate is what decides me.
Or I imagine my son running a company in England and desperately trying to recruit the best creative staff but being told he must employ English or Welsh people.
I'm thinking ten - twenty years ahead. I don't want my generation to remembered for abandoning their children as outsiders because we didn't always get our own way when things were going well for us.
I get the feeling that as we get closer to the day there will be more messages about the risk of the unknown and more statements from big and small businesses warning of the dangers of leaving.
Going to be very close as it was in Scotland imho.
If they're good enough and are paid what is ok for them and the employers then cool beans.
That's my personal reason but I truly believe that this type of experience can be a force for good in Britain's relationship with Europe. We must be able to work with our European neighbours and not isolate ourselves whilst trying to recreate the Age of Empire.
On another note, does anyone else suspect that the whole EU referendum is simply a smokescreen to deflect from the Government's problems/plans at home (I.e the Health Service)? Cameron presenting himself as the champion of the British working people is quite laughable as well. Corbyn's leadership looks completely ineffective on the referendum, playing right into Cameron's hands.
We have a day set in the diary for accounts filing where no doubt I will get to understand more but he did say that ut was worth being in once upon a time when it was all about the finance and trade cant remember what he called it, but then he said it changed to this EU that we see now and is so far from what it was sold to the public as intially that its unrecognisable
there may be very supportive tax reliefs and finance support from the government to enable growth in small business enterprise,
Well isn't that what the government should be doing anyway? EU membership does not stop them. Why do you think Germany has so many thriving SME's. If our government diverted their attention away from the City for a moment, and started taxing the Google's and Facebook's correctly, that programme could start tomorrow. Sod all to do with the EU (except that the EU can help them tax the Facebook scam-merchants)
Lunchtime meets with people that like bubbles and who have their own cellar full of them gets me very quickly back to red cheeked and smiley and no goid forv sensible conversation
He knows my opinion on spreadsheets but then points at his Aston and says spreadsheets points st my renaukt and says no spreadsheets
Girls dribk but fucking quality matev