Stan is a fan of the "German Way" and how clubs are supporter owned. Ticket prices are much cheaper for the Bundesliga games, the clubs also look after the fans better.
Well then he has a bit more sense than people are giving him credit for. Because under the German way, a lot of the worst things RD seems to be doing, would have been impossible. And there is evidence for that statement.
@PragueAddick This isn't a dig at you, and I can see how the German teams fail to have the same problems that we have here but I can't seem to square the circle that they have massive, modern stadia, they have some of the best players in the world playing there, they seem to be less dependent on TV revenue and their fans pay a lot less to get in than ours. I see how this is very desirable but don't see how they can be doing it?
On the basis that there are very few football clubs in the English leagues making money and, apart from some agents (possibly) there are no entities taking money out of football, apart from the players, I don't understand how the German model is sustainable if ours is on it's ar$e with significantly more TV money coming into it.
This also ignores the fact that the German League seems to be the least competitive in domestic terms - Bayern seem to lose a handful of games in every decade, but if we ignore that I still don't see how their system works, even though it clearly does.
I don't expect you to write a full report on it but if you have read anything that you can give a link to I would be grateful.
Also, sorry for going so off topic. On the subject I agree with many on here, Collymore has done some despicable things, all be it he has been suffering with depression, a terrible burden, but I almost never disagree with his view on football matters, even those things that, it seems, no one else will say publicly.
I would like to answer fully because I believe it is really important.
There are two ways in which German football is organised differently which directly impact on Charlton's plight.
1. The way TV money is distributed is decided by the German FA. Not the Bundesliga. The Bundesliga reports to the German FA. The key outcome is that money is distributed far more evenly down to Bundesliga 2 (and from last year, Bundesliga 3). The stories of multiple near administrations and clubs for sale, in the Championship, do not occur in Bundesliga 2.
2. The German 50+1 law states that a club must be 51% owned by its members. There are only three exceptions. Bayer Leverkusen and and VFL Wolfsburg, who are the equivalent of our old "works" teams, and Hoffenheim, who are the MK Dons of German football. Various businesses try to overturn the rule but meet fierce co-ordinated opposition from fans. Red Bull have to be content with 49% of the Leipzig club they bought, and are not allowed to call it Red Bull, but RB, standing for Rasenball, if I recall.
Now here is how 50+1 directly rates to Charlton and RD. Carl Zeiss Jena. He only owns 49%. The members considered his network idea and politely told him where to shove it (I know this from my visit with @GlassHalfFull last year.). Yet he is continuing with a plan to upgrade the stadium along the lines of STVV. This will improve the stadium, we have no doubt. Nevertheless their Ultras were suspicious of him and protested and boycotted. Other fans close to the club resolved this through dialogue..
Now everyone may say, oh but Jena are small beer. Not so. They are well placed in their league, but more importantly they recently drew VFB Stuttgart in the German Cup. It seems the German Cup still has the magic that the FA Cup has lost. Because not only did Jena sell out their 13,000 capacity, but they found way to boost that capacity to 18,000. Even allowing for 1,500 from Stuttgart, that means more fans came to see Jena than came to see Charlton this season.
OK, not everything is rosy, this is football. For a long time German football was way behind England (or rather the EPL) in terms of TV money. This has gradually been increased, but the price paid was, as usual Sky messing with the game schedules. Bayern has been a problem only for the last three years. It is a problem, but below them it remains very competitive, they get four UCL places, and every EPL club wants to avoid a German club, whoever it is.
Any comments? Anyone? I think this is really important to grasp.
How has this thread turned into domestic violence? I didn't flag the above, but Stan Collymore's comments on the running of Charlton have nothing to do with Jim Davidson or domestic violence. Stick to the thread.
How has this thread turned into domestic violence? I didn't flag the above, but Stan Collymore's comments on the running of Charlton have nothing to do with Jim Davidson or domestic violence. Stick to the thread.
I would like to answer fully because I believe it is really important.
There are two ways in which German football is organised differently which directly impact on Charlton's plight.
1. The way TV money is distributed is decided by the German FA. Not the Bundesliga. The Bundesliga reports to the German FA. The key outcome is that money is distributed far more evenly down to Bundesliga 2 (and from last year, Bundesliga 3). The stories of multiple near administrations and clubs for sale, in the Championship, do not occur in Bundesliga 2.
2. The German 50+1 law states that a club must be 51% owned by its members. There are only three exceptions. Bayer Leverkusen and and VFL Wolfsburg, who are the equivalent of our old "works" teams, and Hoffenheim, who are the MK Dons of German football. Various businesses try to overturn the rule but meet fierce co-ordinated opposition from fans. Red Bull have to be content with 49% of the Leipzig club they bought, and are not allowed to call it Red Bull, but RB, standing for Rasenball, if I recall.
Now here is how 50+1 directly rates to Charlton and RD. Carl Zeiss Jena. He only owns 49%. The members considered his network idea and politely told him where to shove it (I know this from my visit with @GlassHalfFull last year.). Yet he is continuing with a plan to upgrade the stadium along the lines of STVV. This will improve the stadium, we have no doubt. Nevertheless their Ultras were suspicious of him and protested and boycotted. Other fans close to the club resolved this through dialogue..
Now everyone may say, oh but Jena are small beer. Not so. They are well placed in their league, but more importantly they recently drew VFB Stuttgart in the German Cup. It seems the German Cup still has the magic that the FA Cup has lost. Because not only did Jena sell out their 13,000 capacity, but they found way to boost that capacity to 18,000. Even allowing for 1,500 from Stuttgart, that means more fans came to see Jena than came to see Charlton this season.
OK, not everything is rosy, this is football. For a long time German football was way behind England (or rather the EPL) in terms of TV money. This has gradually been increased, but the price paid was, as usual Sky messing with the game schedules. Bayern has been a problem only for the last three years. It is a problem, but below them it remains very competitive, they get four UCL places, and every EPL club wants to avoid a German club, whoever it is.
Any comments? Anyone? I think this is really important to grasp.
Prague, I understand all of that and I can see why it would be desirable but if we were to adopt a similar model of ownership, for example, who would stump up the money for the losses each season. In out case, for example, the Charlton fans would have to raise c. £4m between them or we would have to find an owner that was willing to pump in millions of his own money to a business that he owns just half of.
Also the distribution of the TV money is interesting but on the basis that all of the clubs that benefit from money are struggling to make it stretch I don't see how that would help all clubs but I do appreciate that the German model doesn't have the problems we have for precisely that reason. We would probably not have the disparity we have across the divisions we currently have if we'd avoided giving the Premier League clubs all the money but changing that now would be difficult as it would mean taking money from those that can't, really. budget on what they have now.
It sill doesn't, however, clarify how the German clubs manage to be rich and successful with less TV money and cheaper tickets. Were the stadia funded by the local authorities and/or do the players all earn less than in England and/or do they have other sources of income. My real question is how, if they get less money in (TV revenue, tickets) can they balance the books with batter facilities than us and cheaper tickets. I'm just curious. I am not knocking the German system nor an I looking to dispute what you say Prague, I just cant see how they can manage it when we (as a league) are failing miserably on just about every level.
How has this thread turned into domestic violence? I didn't flag the above, but Stan Collymore's comments on the running of Charlton have nothing to do with Jim Davidson or domestic violence. Stick to the thread.
I saw "Collymore" and "outburst" in the thread title and assumed the worst....
It still doesn't, however, clarify how the German clubs manage to be rich and successful with less TV money and cheaper tickets. Were the stadia funded by the local authorities and/or do the players all earn less than in England and/or do they have other sources of income. My real question is how, if they get less money in (TV revenue, tickets) can they balance the books with batter facilities than us and cheaper tickets
So there are several factors to consider
1. A lot, but not all of the stadia are not owned by the clubs. But that is Germany. Quite rich people don't own, just rent. Owning property is a British obsession which puzzles the Germans
2. The Germans generally think long term. The fan members have successfully stopped the commercial people from taking foolish punts with their finances.
3. The TV money has only become big relatively recently. For a long time, Bayern in particular complained that they were at a disadvantage compared to EPL clubs in the UCL. This implies then that for many years German clubs over-performed in Europe. How did they do it? One part is their famous investment since 2000 in academies (which of course is also the reason why I don't expect to ever see England beat german in a serious match again in my lifetime). The other part is that they bought players from cheaper parts of Europe. You find a lot of Czechs, Poles, Yugoslavs in their teams.
4. The attendances are simply awesome. Had a beer with my client who is Frankfurt fan on Tuesday. They are not doing well, currently 14th, he was complaining. But he is one of the 50,000 who pack the place every week. Last time I looked, Koln, back in B1 this season had an occupancy rate of 100% of their 50,000 stadium. You simply could not get a seat for a game there.
Also: they sell stadium naming rights, they have more shirt sponsors, they pay a LOT less in player wages, they have more sport and music events in some stadiums, I know Cologne (and likely others) had council help to renovate their ground for the World Cup, and only standing tickets are the fabled £10.
If stuff from people like Collymore is,reaching 750,000 followers, might a petition site that we could try to ask them to sign/share be a good idea?
If it got a lot of attention it could get a bit more press.
Though it would probably be ignored, similar ideas got attention at Blackpool and may reach less wilfully destructive owners than Karl Oyston (ours are more accidently destructive through neglect and terrible ideas imho).
still doesn't, however, clarify how the German clubs manage to be rich and successful with less TV money and cheaper tickets. Were the stadia funded by the local authorities and/or do the players all earn less than in England and/or do they have other sources of income. My real question is how, if they get less money in (TV revenue, tickets) can they balance the books with batter facilities than us and cheaper tickets
So there are several factors to consider
1. A lot, but not all of the stadia are not owned by the clubs. But that is Germany. Quite rich people don't own, just rent. Owning property is a British obsession which puzzles the Germans
2. The Germans generally think long term. The fan members have successfully stopped the commercial people from taking foolish punts with their finances.
3. The TV money has only become big relatively recently. For a long time, Bayern in particular complained that they were at a disadvantage compared to EPL clubs in the UCL. This implies then that for many years German clubs over-performed in Europe. How did they do it? One part is their famous investment since 2000 in academies (which of course is also the reason why I don't expect to ever see England beat german in a serious match again in my lifetime). The other part is that they bought players from cheaper parts of Europe. You find a lot of Czechs, Poles, Yugoslavs in their teams.
4. The attendances are simply awesome. Had a beer with my client who is Frankfurt fan on Tuesday. They are not doing well, currently 14th, he was complaining. But he is one of the 50,000 who pack the place every week. Last time I looked, Koln, back in B1 this season had an occupancy rate of 100% of their 50,000 stadium. You simply could not get a seat for a game there.
Football in Germany belongs to the fans. It is a totally different anti-Sky culture than we have here.
If stuff from people like Collymore is,reaching 750,000 followers, might a petition site that we could try to ask them to sign/share be a good idea?
If it got a lot of attention it could get a bit more press.
Though it would probably be ignored, similar ideas got attention at Blackpool and may reach less wilfully destructive owners than Karl Oyston (ours are more accidently destructive through neglect and terrible ideas imho).
ChangeforCharlton.co.uk or similar? Or.be!
A slight aside: such is the revenue generation approach of social media these days, any post on Twitter will reach about 10% of the audience, at best. Unless you want to pay a few grand to reach more. Also, try posting three times in a day on Facebook and see how many likes you get on the third one. It'll probably reach two people.
How has this thread turned into domestic violence? I didn't flag the above, but Stan Collymore's comments on the running of Charlton have nothing to do with Jim Davidson or domestic violence. Stick to the thread.
Comments
On the basis that there are very few football clubs in the English leagues making money and, apart from some agents (possibly) there are no entities taking money out of football, apart from the players, I don't understand how the German model is sustainable if ours is on it's ar$e with significantly more TV money coming into it.
This also ignores the fact that the German League seems to be the least competitive in domestic terms - Bayern seem to lose a handful of games in every decade, but if we ignore that I still don't see how their system works, even though it clearly does.
I don't expect you to write a full report on it but if you have read anything that you can give a link to I would be grateful.
Also, sorry for going so off topic. On the subject I agree with many on here, Collymore has done some despicable things, all be it he has been suffering with depression, a terrible burden, but I almost never disagree with his view on football matters, even those things that, it seems, no one else will say publicly.
I would like to answer fully because I believe it is really important.
There are two ways in which German football is organised differently which directly impact on Charlton's plight.
1. The way TV money is distributed is decided by the German FA. Not the Bundesliga. The Bundesliga reports to the German FA. The key outcome is that money is distributed far more evenly down to Bundesliga 2 (and from last year, Bundesliga 3). The stories of multiple near administrations and clubs for sale, in the Championship, do not occur in Bundesliga 2.
2. The German 50+1 law states that a club must be 51% owned by its members. There are only three exceptions. Bayer Leverkusen and and VFL Wolfsburg, who are the equivalent of our old "works" teams, and Hoffenheim, who are the MK Dons of German football. Various businesses try to overturn the rule but meet fierce co-ordinated opposition from fans. Red Bull have to be content with 49% of the Leipzig club they bought, and are not allowed to call it Red Bull, but RB, standing for Rasenball, if I recall.
Now here is how 50+1 directly rates to Charlton and RD. Carl Zeiss Jena. He only owns 49%. The members considered his network idea and politely told him where to shove it (I know this from my visit with @GlassHalfFull last year.). Yet he is continuing with a plan to upgrade the stadium along the lines of STVV. This will improve the stadium, we have no doubt. Nevertheless their Ultras were suspicious of him and protested and boycotted. Other fans close to the club resolved this through dialogue..
Now everyone may say, oh but Jena are small beer. Not so. They are well placed in their league, but more importantly they recently drew VFB Stuttgart in the German Cup. It seems the German Cup still has the magic that the FA Cup has lost. Because not only did Jena sell out their 13,000 capacity, but they found way to boost that capacity to 18,000. Even allowing for 1,500 from Stuttgart, that means more fans came to see Jena than came to see Charlton this season.
OK, not everything is rosy, this is football. For a long time German football was way behind England (or rather the EPL) in terms of TV money. This has gradually been increased, but the price paid was, as usual Sky messing with the game schedules. Bayern has been a problem only for the last three years. It is a problem, but below them it remains very competitive, they get four UCL places, and every EPL club wants to avoid a German club, whoever it is.
Any comments? Anyone? I think this is really important to grasp.
Also the distribution of the TV money is interesting but on the basis that all of the clubs that benefit from money are struggling to make it stretch I don't see how that would help all clubs but I do appreciate that the German model doesn't have the problems we have for precisely that reason. We would probably not have the disparity we have across the divisions we currently have if we'd avoided giving the Premier League clubs all the money but changing that now would be difficult as it would mean taking money from those that can't, really. budget on what they have now.
It sill doesn't, however, clarify how the German clubs manage to be rich and successful with less TV money and cheaper tickets. Were the stadia funded by the local authorities and/or do the players all earn less than in England and/or do they have other sources of income. My real question is how, if they get less money in (TV revenue, tickets) can they balance the books with batter facilities than us and cheaper tickets. I'm just curious. I am not knocking the German system nor an I looking to dispute what you say Prague, I just cant see how they can manage it when we (as a league) are failing miserably on just about every level.
It still doesn't, however, clarify how the German clubs manage to be rich and successful with less TV money and cheaper tickets. Were the stadia funded by the local authorities and/or do the players all earn less than in England and/or do they have other sources of income. My real question is how, if they get less money in (TV revenue, tickets) can they balance the books with batter facilities than us and cheaper tickets
So there are several factors to consider
1. A lot, but not all of the stadia are not owned by the clubs. But that is Germany. Quite rich people don't own, just rent. Owning property is a British obsession which puzzles the Germans
2. The Germans generally think long term. The fan members have successfully stopped the commercial people from taking foolish punts with their finances.
3. The TV money has only become big relatively recently. For a long time, Bayern in particular complained that they were at a disadvantage compared to EPL clubs in the UCL. This implies then that for many years German clubs over-performed in Europe. How did they do it? One part is their famous investment since 2000 in academies (which of course is also the reason why I don't expect to ever see England beat german in a serious match again in my lifetime). The other part is that they bought players from cheaper parts of Europe. You find a lot of Czechs, Poles, Yugoslavs in their teams.
4. The attendances are simply awesome. Had a beer with my client who is Frankfurt fan on Tuesday. They are not doing well, currently 14th, he was complaining. But he is one of the 50,000 who pack the place every week. Last time I looked, Koln, back in B1 this season had an occupancy rate of 100% of their 50,000 stadium. You simply could not get a seat for a game there.
If it got a lot of attention it could get a bit more press.
Though it would probably be ignored, similar ideas got attention at Blackpool and may reach less wilfully destructive owners than Karl Oyston (ours are more accidently destructive through neglect and terrible ideas imho).
ChangeforCharlton.co.uk or similar? Or.be!
So there are several factors to consider
1. A lot, but not all of the stadia are not owned by the clubs. But that is Germany. Quite rich people don't own, just rent. Owning property is a British obsession which puzzles the Germans
2. The Germans generally think long term. The fan members have successfully stopped the commercial people from taking foolish punts with their finances.
3. The TV money has only become big relatively recently. For a long time, Bayern in particular complained that they were at a disadvantage compared to EPL clubs in the UCL. This implies then that for many years German clubs over-performed in Europe. How did they do it? One part is their famous investment since 2000 in academies (which of course is also the reason why I don't expect to ever see England beat german in a serious match again in my lifetime). The other part is that they bought players from cheaper parts of Europe. You find a lot of Czechs, Poles, Yugoslavs in their teams.
4. The attendances are simply awesome. Had a beer with my client who is Frankfurt fan on Tuesday. They are not doing well, currently 14th, he was complaining. But he is one of the 50,000 who pack the place every week. Last time I looked, Koln, back in B1 this season had an occupancy rate of 100% of their 50,000 stadium. You simply could not get a seat for a game there.
Football in Germany belongs to the fans. It is a totally different anti-Sky culture than we have here.