I think that we need the Trust to consider carefully the surprisingly (to me) wide range of reactions to the meeting. It is clear that some well respected fans believe the current furore to be an over-reaction and others profess themselves either content with RD/KM's leadership of the club so far or are fearful of the vacuum left if RD decides to pull the plug. Others, me included, feel that the Board is treating us as ignorant mugs and that the time is right to escalate action.
This will not be an easy task, but surely part of what the Trust is for, for members and non-members alike.
I personally doubt that there is indeed a "silent majority" who are content with the current position, but that needs to be established. Because, whatever actions may be taken, they have to be robustly supported by a substantial number of fans or it gives KM the chance to claim, again, that the protesters represent a very small minority of the fan base. Whatever actions are proposed must be broadly agreed and then robustly led and executed.
Davo.
Just reading this and other comments after watching the video, which is the first time I ever got to see and hear KM in a live situation for any length of time.
I think you are setting the Trust the task of working out what is the spectrum of opinion now, and what is the majority. How would you suggest it do that in a way which is accepted? I can only think of another survey. That takes time, and our survey pro is worried that too many in a short space of time isn't best practice.
The other thing I'd ask is about your sentence
This will not be an easy task, but surely part of what the Trust is for, for members and non-members alike.
Given the level of vitriol poured on the Trust by some posters on here (which is nothing compared to other places) can you understand the extreme reluctance to presume that we represent anything more than our members? And that even among our current members there are widely differing views about what the Trust's stance and actions should be?
Its a discussion that we are having within the Trust team, and it isn't an easy one. We are all just volunteers. Fortunately this Trust board all gets on well with each other, but we have jobs, family, newborns in some cases...
On here I can read the views of people I've met such as yourself, NLA, Fanny, and others whom I feel I know even though I never met them. I read one view and think, yes I agree, and then next up an equally persuasive opposite view.
How would you go about working out the "majority mood" ? I have no idea, other than a survey. Anything other than reasonably robust figures will simply set off another round of "who do they think they are" type criticism.
I think that we need the Trust to consider carefully the surprisingly (to me) wide range of reactions to the meeting. It is clear that some well respected fans believe the current furore to be an over-reaction and others profess themselves either content with RD/KM's leadership of the club so far or are fearful of the vacuum left if RD decides to pull the plug. Others, me included, feel that the Board is treating us as ignorant mugs and that the time is right to escalate action.
This will not be an easy task, but surely part of what the Trust is for, for members and non-members alike.
I personally doubt that there is indeed a "silent majority" who are content with the current position, but that needs to be established. Because, whatever actions may be taken, they have to be robustly supported by a substantial number of fans or it gives KM the chance to claim, again, that the protesters represent a very small minority of the fan base. Whatever actions are proposed must be broadly agreed and then robustly led and executed.
Davo.
Just reading this and other comments after watching the video, which is the first time I ever got to see and hear KM in a live situation for any length of time.
I think you are setting the Trust the task of working out what is the spectrum of opinion now, and what is the majority. How would you suggest it do that in a way which is accepted? I can only think of another survey. That takes time, and our survey pro is worried that too many in a short space of time isn't best practice.
The other thing I'd ask is about your sentence
This will not be an easy task, but surely part of what the Trust is for, for members and non-members alike.
Given the level of vitriol poured on the Trust by some posters on here (which is nothing compared to other places) can you understand the extreme reluctance to presume that we represent anything more than our members? And that even among our current members there are widely differing views about what the Trust's stance and actions should be?
Its a discussion that we are having within the Trust team, and it isn't an easy one. We are all just volunteers. Fortunately this Trust board all gets on well with each other, but we have jobs, family, newborns in some cases...
On here I can read the views of people I've met such as yourself, NLA, Fanny, and others whom I feel I know even though I never met them. I read one view and think, yes I agree, and then next up an equally persuasive opposite view.
How would you go about working out the "majority mood" ? I have no idea, other than a survey. Anything other than reasonably robust figures will simply set off another round of "who do they think they are" type criticism.
What would you recommend?
Turning the question back around? Where have I seen already today?
I think that we need the Trust to consider carefully the surprisingly (to me) wide range of reactions to the meeting. It is clear that some well respected fans believe the current furore to be an over-reaction and others profess themselves either content with RD/KM's leadership of the club so far or are fearful of the vacuum left if RD decides to pull the plug. Others, me included, feel that the Board is treating us as ignorant mugs and that the time is right to escalate action.
This will not be an easy task, but surely part of what the Trust is for, for members and non-members alike.
I personally doubt that there is indeed a "silent majority" who are content with the current position, but that needs to be established. Because, whatever actions may be taken, they have to be robustly supported by a substantial number of fans or it gives KM the chance to claim, again, that the protesters represent a very small minority of the fan base. Whatever actions are proposed must be broadly agreed and then robustly led and executed.
Escalate actions to achieve what aims Davo?
I've just watched the video, and i felt she answered questions quite fairly, and as she said we start from now to include fans in decision making and all meetings will be filmed for everyone to see.
For what it's worth here's my feelings. This is going to be long running show. The black and white thing has been been picked up by RD/KM and should be continued scarfs, balloons whatever, It engages people who might not want to protest vocally and at least for those more vociferous to know that they are not wasting their time. RD is not coming out of his bunker any time soon and the whole we are all his children creeps me out a bit, we are not a cult. Meire is the weakest link in this and she looked rattled. But we must stay classy, it's not that she's a woman nor Belgian, she's just been over promoted. Meire has to go , that would be a start. But I don't know how it could end. In Hollywood it would be Seth Plum riding down Floyd Road with his Euro- lotteries win, but were not Hollywood were Oxleas Wood. So wear a B/W scarf don't buy crap off the club, protest before the game, stay longer after the match than you should. But as it stands support the lads on the pitch. In the end there are more of us than them. Although apart from RD we are older.
Ok, so here is how to execute the 'walk out' idea....
10 mins in - everyone walks out. Complete max exodus from those who actually have the bottle to do it.
20 mins in - everyone piles back in to the songs that need to be sung to get the point across.
The reason why it shouldn't be the first ten minutes is because there is a risk that it just isn't picked up by the commentators that anything of significance is happening - especially as we all know there will be at least 2000 or so do-gooders who won't join in with the protest.
Do it ten mins after the game has started, so people watching at home have to sit up and say to themselves "hang on....what's all this about?"
The attempts to properly force our views home have been pretty tame so far IMO (the protest and last nights Q&A) - seriously, this needs to be done big and be done properly.
Wow, that is a bit of a challenge this early in the morning, but I’ll give it a go:
Why does the Trust need to do something?
In my view, and I believe in the view of many other supporters, we are at a critical point in the history of Charlton Athletic Football Club. I won’t rehearse here all the misgivings already eloquently expressed about club strategy, policy, operational funding, recruitment and appointments capability and the general quality of the footballing “product”. Suffice to say these misgivings range from extreme anger on one end of the spectrum to apathy on the other. There are also those who profess themselves satisfied with the current regime, or who aren’t entirely comfortable but fear the possible consequences if Roland Duchatelet withdraws (unlikely in my opinion) or sells to an “even worse” regime.
It is not currently clear what proportion of our active supporters and wider fan base fall into each of these three categories. For ease of reference, let’s call them:
- Angry - Satisfied - Fearful
I acknowledge that Roland Duchatelet and his regime have brought a welcome degree of financial stability. The stadium and pitch have had much needed capital expenditure and the proposed development of training facilities should both have a positive impact on the playing performances and on the attraction and accelerated development of academy talent. Let’s leave aside for now the question of whether that academy talent would be retained to make a lasting contribution to our first team fortunes or sold to fund the operating costs of the club - the so called “footballer farm” concept.
However, despite these investments there is very little about the club that feels right at the moment. Despite occasional bursts of good form the quality of footballl we have played during Duchatelet’s tenure has been pretty consistently poor; the operational performance of the non-playing side of the club has been poor; the lack of supporter/fan “customer” focus and meaningful two-way communication and engagement has been lamentable. In short, it feels to me that almost everything about the club that I have loved and supported all my life is changing, is under threat. If Roland Duchatelet and his regime carry on in the way they have so far, CAFC may well continue to exist but it will have changed beyond recognition and probably beyond repair.
Now, and with apologies for quoting the Trust’s own material at you, it exists amongst other things to:
- give fans a voice and to act as positive force
- preserve Charlton Athletic Football Club for this and future generations
- give the fans a voice and represent their interests in the running of the Club
- assist in preserving the long term future of the Club, it’s history, culture, values and identity in our Community.
I believe in those aims and objectives, which is why I joined the Trust. And yes, I appreciate that the people on the Trust Board have real lives and related time pressures. I respect and admire all those fans currently and previously involved in forming and taking forward the Trust concept. I also believe we face an existential crisis, one that the Trust itself exists to tackle. I know that is a big ask, and the degree of vitriol aimed at the Trust in some places must be frustrating and exhausting, but perhaps this is an opportunity to reach out again to all parts of the fan base and further the Trust’s aims.
While I also respect the other supporters groups and the very valuable contributions of those that set up and run on-line fora such as CL, You have over a thousand paying members and many more associated fans. I do not believe there is any other supporters group which has the same degree of legitimacy as the Trust in representing the views of Charlton fans, nor the same opportunity to co-ordinate and coalesce a worthy response to the crisis.
What should the Trust do?
For the reasons given above, I do not think that there is a “do nothing” option.
The Trust needs to (if it hasn’t already) take a position on what is going on at Charlton. Is it good or bad for the future existence and spirit of our club? If there is a balance, what can be done to reinforce and support the positives whilst encouraging the Board and management to address the negatives - something which you are clearly already doing but with mixed views on the likely efficacy of those attempts. If the Board and management are not prepared to engage meaningfully, are perceived to be paying lip-service to fan engagement, what then?
To do this in a representative way (otherwise the Trust itself becomes simply a small minority pressure group and would probably lose a large number of its paying members), I think the Trust need to go beyond the idea of another simple survey. I think it needs to understand the wide spectrum of views and have a good idea of the proportions falling into the Angry, Satisfied and Fearful categories I mentioned earlier. That means undertaking a widespread consultation process, with other supporters groups, with members on internet fora, on social media and even by standing outside every entrance and taking a poll of views. You need to be able to say with a degree of certainty what the fan base really thinks and thus give legitimacy to the actions, if any, that the Trust undertake.
This will clearly take time; maybe even the rest of this season. Meanwhile, anger levels are high and protests will continue in the various relatively un-co-ordinated forms highlighted by a read through this forum. You can’t stop those - but while the consultation process is going on you could certainly at least monitor and report on:
- what protests are planned - the level of support they attract (for example, shouldn't the Trust know how many fans took part in the protest last week?) - their effects
so that a fuller picture is established and lessons can be learned.
I would also argue that the Trust could play an active role in supporting those protests - advising on tactics, spreading the word, sourcing materials and so on. I guess that depends on whether the Trust has taken “a position” on what is going on at Charlton and how visible you want the Trust’s support to be. One the one hand, active support may jeopardise the Trust’s chances of a warmer relationship and further engagement with the Charlton Board; on the other, a lack of support and action may jeapordise the existence of the Trust or at least it’s level of membership.
A difficult call, and an uncomfortable position to be in - but so is sitting on the fence. And, as unfair as it may sound to you and your colleagues on the Trust Board, sitting on the fence is what you are, or are in danger of, being perceived to be doing.
I think Davo55's post is excellent and echoes many of my own thoughts as a Trust member. I particularly wanted to highlight the following:
That means undertaking a widespread consultation process, with other supporters groups, with members on internet fora, on social media and even by standing outside every entrance and taking a poll of views. You need to be able to say with a degree of certainty what the fan base really thinks and thus give legitimacy to the actions, if any, that the Trust undertake.
I think this is key. At this point in time, we don't really know the views of the wider fan base. There have been plenty of online surveys, but as we know, many fans are not involved in the various online communities. My feeling is, if we don't know what the views of the wider fan base are, how can we hope to come up with the right solution on how to take things forward?
I realise the Trust are real people with their own lives and work on a voluntary basis, but maybe it's the perfect time to engage all of the supporters groups to rally round. If everyone uses the same tool too poll their members and those that can, help out on match-days to gather the wider views, you'll end up with some pretty good data. Once you have the data you will then be in a position to know if there is actually a mandate for action, and if there is, all the groups could take a collective approach to tackle the issues.
Of course there are downsides that taking a longer term approach to gathering views, particularly in the fact that football fans can change their views on a result by result basis, but I do think it's worth considering.
I think Davo55's post is excellent and echoes many of my own thoughts as a Trust member. I particularly wanted to highlight the following:
That means undertaking a widespread consultation process, with other supporters groups, with members on internet fora, on social media and even by standing outside every entrance and taking a poll of views. You need to be able to say with a degree of certainty what the fan base really thinks and thus give legitimacy to the actions, if any, that the Trust undertake.
I think this is key. At this point in time, we don't really know the views of the wider fan base. There have been plenty of online surveys, but as we know, many fans are not involved in the various online communities. My feeling is, if we don't know what the views of the wider fan base are, how can we hope to come up with the right solution on how to take things forward?
I realise the Trust are real people with their own lives and work on a voluntary basis, but maybe it's the perfect time to engage all of the supporters groups to rally round. If everyone uses the same tool too poll their members and those that can, help out on match-days to gather the wider views, you'll end up with some pretty good data. Once you have the data you will then be in a position to know if there is actually a mandate for action, and if there is, all the groups could take a collective approach to tackle the issues.
Of course there are downsides that taking a longer term approach to gathering views, particularly in the fact that football fans can change their views on a result by result basis, but I do think it's worth considering.
Again just quickly because of the day job, but personally I think that
but maybe it's the perfect time to engage all of the supporters groups to rally round. If everyone uses the same tool too poll their members and those that can, help out on match-days to gather the wider views, you'll end up with some pretty good data.
is a very constructive idea, and I reckon the others will agree. Implementing it will be a challenge, but if there is goodwill all round it can be done.
Having said that we already have enough data from the most recent survey to challenge KM's "2% remark", and will do so.
I've watched the video, made some notes and posted them on another thread. But the more I read comments on the meeting the more it seems to fall into
- those who think meaningful dialogue is still possible and will continue to try and communicate with KM etc in a respectful and professional way (as they did last night - and I admire them)
- those who think attempts at meaningful dialogue are clearly not going to work. IMO the video shows that KM etc are merely paying lip service to the fans and have no intension of having dialogue, indeed they seem not to understand why fans want it.
I wanted to see the video and gather my thoughts whilst reading other people's views but am now so angry that I am most definitely in the second camp. I see absolutely no point in trying any further as it is a total waste of energy. For me the time is right for protest and I will gladly take part in any lawful ones.
KM is in denial wanting to believe that only 300 fans are disaffected. My first priority would be to destroy that notion.
As many fans as possible need to show they feel the same way as the 300, even if they might not act in the same way under provocation.
Whatever your views on what the Trust should or shouldn't be leading on, it has proved it is a viable vehicle to collate opinions and views. It can't organise or lead protest unless it has a mandate and unless that mandate is from a sizeable number of fans the messages to the club can be picked off as non-representative. Views could be canvassed and collated by category - season ticket holder, young, old etc., the form of protest and stand on abusive personal protest. Data is king in this day and age, we could use it to produce a powerpoint presentation that knocks KM's into a cocked hat and prove to @kentred2 whether he is in the majority or not.
I support the Trust because it's worth giving it a chance, to ignore it's potential in situations we now find ourselves in makes no sense to me.
A string of excellent posts above and an excellent idea to cure KM of the delusion that it is a tiny minority who have problems with how our club is run. If opinions are canvassed using a standard form across all platforms (e.g online, in person etc.) this will generate solid data that will give us a true idea of the percentage in the different camps. If we can keep the questions simple and few in number it makes it all that much easier. I'm sure there are people on this site who have expertise in this area (I clearly don't!) and it seems a positive and constructive way forward. Well done all.
I also agree about the black and white campaign being another way of keeping the issue uppermost in the minds of our glorious leaders when they see the crowd on a matchday. Some folk don't go in for vocal protesting, so this gives them the chance to quietly speak volumes in their own way (sorry, that last sentence was a crime against the English language). Others can go the vocal route, which cannot be ignored, as Saturday's protest proved.
On the last point, I very much agree that we must be smart about what we do as KM's strategy appears to be to paint herself as a victim of sexism/xenophobia and she cannot be allowed to portray herself as the innocent damsel being hectored by aggressive male crowds. The point must come through clearly and be stated whenever possible: we are not criticising you because you're a woman, or a Belgian - we are criticising you because you are incompetent....as well as dishonest. If we can make sure that female protesters are front and centre whenever protests are filmed, for example...this might help dispel this myth in the eyes of the media, which is very the battleground that we have to take to, whether we like it or not. Making sure that media articles are more likely to be sympathetic to us will help immensely. A possible idea to help with this would be, for instance to produce a fact sheet with data on transfers, attendances, notable statements (e.g the classic '20 candidates' line and the new modern classic 'every manager has been an improvement') then it makes it easy for journos to contextualize the protests. The appearance of said facts in the media time after time will hammer the point home and hopefully bring the wider media over to our side.
Can I finish by thanking everyone who has been fighting the good fight, whether that is protesting, organising or questions (e.g Seth - kudos to you for taking on a difficult job; I know how easy it is to criticise others who actually have the nerve to step up to plate in an almost impossible situation). Watching from afar, it is very frustrating to see all of this unfold without being able to be directly involved (I'll have to wait until Christmas time to do that). It is no exaggeration to say that I definitely feel a whiff of the back to the Valley spirit around all this - and we all know how powerful that spirit has proved to be in the past!
In the end, if we can stay united and focussed - we WILL get our Charlton back.
A string of excellent posts above and an excellent idea to cure KM of the delusion that it is a tiny minority who have problems with how our club is run. If opinions are canvassed using a standard form across all platforms (e.g online, in person etc.) this will generate solid data that will give us a true idea of the percentage in the different camps. If we can keep the questions simple and few in number it makes it all that much easier. I'm sure there are people on this site who have expertise in this area (I clearly don't!) and it seems a positive and constructive way forward. Well done all.
I also agree about the black and white campaign being another way of keeping the issue uppermost in the minds of our glorious leaders when they see the crowd on a matchday. Some folk don't go in for vocal protesting, so this gives them the chance to quietly speak volumes in their own way (sorry, that last sentence was a crime against the English language). Others can go the vocal route, which cannot be ignored, as Saturday's protest proved.
On the last point, I very much agree that we must be smart about what we do as KM's strategy appears to be to paint herself as a victim of sexism/xenophobia and she cannot be allowed to portray herself as the innocent damsel being hectored by aggressive male crowds. The point must come through clearly and be stated whenever possible: we are not criticising you because you're a woman, or a Belgian - we are criticising you because you are incompetent....as well as dishonest. If we can make sure that female protesters are front and centre whenever protests are filmed, for example...this might help dispel this myth in the eyes of the media, which is very the battleground that we have to take to, whether we like it or not. Making sure that media articles are more likely to be sympathetic to us will help immensely. A possible idea to help with this would be, for instance to produce a fact sheet with data on transfers, attendances, notable statements (e.g the classic '20 candidates' line and the new modern classic 'every manager has been an improvement') then it makes it easy for journos to contextualize the protests. The appearance of said facts in the media time after time will hammer the point home and hopefully bring the wider media over to our side.
Can I finish by thanking everyone who has been fighting the good fight, whether that is protesting, organising or questions (e.g Seth - kudos to you for taking on a difficult job; I know how easy it is to criticise others who actually have the nerve to step up to plate in an almost impossible situation). Watching from afar, it is very frustrating to see all of this unfold without being able to be directly involved (I'll have to wait until Christmas time to do that). It is no exaggeration to say that I definitely feel a whiff of the back to the Valley spirit around all this - and we all know how powerful that spirit has proved to be in the past!
In the end, if we can stay united and focussed - we WILL get our Charlton back.
How about a protest aimed at Miere made up of a large group of female fans? That will get her
I have puzzled over this for many many hours and its been a struggle believe me.
As someone who perhaps more than anyone on the receiving end of that reluctance of the club to engage despite a very persistent and positive agenda i find this a little bizarre. Indeed in one of our rare meetings with KM we encouraged her to get out and reassure the fans, and when this finally happened it was too little too late.
We identified the growing crisis of apathy and disaffection we were witnessing, i spoke to a lot of fans as chair, but also could be seen on social media; but when we tried to raise it we were denied, and a request drafted collectively by the TB and delivered by myself to discuss the malaise was casually rejected. Despite that we still proceeded positively to a meeting to listen and try and understand those fans, and pressed on dor dialogue.
This was received and commented on as a breech of trust, a comment which i found very insulting and unfair. I bit my lip in order to give the new TB and chair the best chance in continuing that positive agenda, and they have done a very good job in my view of that since despite difficulties.
My resignation from the TB was due to the enormous energy it took to maintain while being largely ignored by the club and undermined by some, in attempts to try and recapture that fuzzy feeling, to where we were under a Supporters Director. I came to the stage where I could no longer sustain that energy in the face of such clear rejection of those approaches, in preference of a box ticking exercise which the FF had always been restricted to.
In terms of the meeting. For me a more genuine approach to engagement would not involve such overt attempts to manage and control meetings like this one.
Anyway..
What came out of the meeting was a committment to try and communicate better, but not a lot else and certainly not enough humility in admitting mistakes.
But also some poor handling of the issues one of which being protest, this is a football club not a bowls club, i dont agree with personal abuse, but expecting fans not to be passionate is just ridiculous.
On the Strategy front
*We are still part of an experiment that brings in cheap unrealised talent, and backs that up with small squads that include little in the way of experienced hands.
*Those small squads expose young talent too rapidly as crisis hits when the thin squad buckles, and must be counterproductive
*Managers who are chosen for their work with youth (we are told) but due to preference of patronage of the owner over experience and proven track record, they don't hang around long enough to have much impact. To me Its probably more accurate that they accept the strategic approach outlined above, and are therefore trusted to do so.
*The club could address this, by increasing the budget which i personally think is pitched unrealistically low, to avoid the continual struggle - for me either to bring in more of that talent to offset the failures, or to mix in more experience alongside them
As for the fans, we have a break now, and choices to consider. If we have a meeting or a survey people may still vote with their feet in whatever direction, although I think one or both must happen at some point by way of response.
The point must come through clearly and be stated whenever possible: we are not criticising you because you're a woman, or a Belgian - we are criticising you because you are incompetent....as well as dishonest.
Then why is the connection there within the songs, shouting and posts
If this is not about anything than her ability to do her job and not where she is from or the fact she is a woman then I am certain that there's enough words In the dictionary to fire off so that she understands you are questioning her ability
I have puzzled over this for many many hours and its been a struggle believe me.
As someone who perhaps more than anyone on the receiving end of that reluctance of the club to engage despite a very persistent and positive agenda i find this a little bizarre. Indeed in one of our rare meetings with KM we encouraged her to get out and reassure the fans, and when this finally happened it was too little too late.
We identified the growing crisis of apathy and disaffection we were witnessing, i spoke to a lot of fans as chair, but also could be seen on social media; but when we tried to raise it we were denied, and a request drafted collectively by the TB and delivered by myself to discuss the malaise was casually rejected. Despite that we still proceeded positively to a meeting to listen and try and understand those fans, and pressed on dor dialogue.
This was received and commented on as a breech of trust, a comment which i found very insulting and unfair. I bit my lip in order to give the new TB and chair the best chance in continuing that positive agenda, and they have done a very good job in my view of that since despite difficulties.
My resignation from the TB was due to the enormous energy it took to maintain while being largely ignored by the club and undermined by some, in attempts to try and recapture that fuzzy feeling, to where we were under a Supporters Director. I came to the stage where I could no longer sustain that energy in the face of such clear rejection of those approaches, in preference of a box ticking exercise which the FF had always been restricted to.
In terms of the meeting. For me a more genuine approach to engagement would not involve such overt attempts to manage and control meetings like this one.
Anyway..
What came out of the meeting was a committment to try and communicate better, but not a lot else and certainly not enough humility in admitting mistakes.
But also some poor handling of the issues one of which being protest, this is a football club not a bowls club, i dont agree with personal abuse, but expecting fans not to be passionate is just ridiculous.
On the Strategy front
*We are still part of an experiment that brings in cheap unrealised talent, and backs that up with small squads that include little in the way of experienced hands.
*Those small squads expose young talent too rapidly as crisis hits when the thin squad buckles, and must be counterproductive
*Managers who are chosen for their work with youth (we are told) but due to preference of patronage of the owner over experience and proven track record, they don't hang around long enough to have much impact. To me Its probably more accurate that they accept the strategic approach outlined above, and are therefore trusted to do so.
*The club could address this, by increasing the budget which i personally think is pitched unrealistically low, to avoid the continual struggle - for me either to bring in more of that talent to offset the failures, or to mix in more experience alongside them
As for the fans, we have a break now, and choices to consider. If we have a meeting or a survey people may still vote with their feet in whatever direction, although I think one or both must happen at some point by way of response.
Your posts on this thread have given me a couple of thoughts:
I agree it's important to get a measure of the fans and how they're feeling and I hear what you say about survey fatigue. Could we find a theme around "the club and fans engaging together" and demonstrate the amount of support for that in a silent, visual way during the Ipswich game. Maybe give everyone going into the game a sheet of paper to hold up at a pre-ordained moment. This will quickly and easily demonstrate whether the number is 2% or not.
My 2nd thought concerns fans leadership. I start by saying I don't know any of you guys well at all but have been around long enough to perceive that on the fans side there are some big personal and/or "political" differences. However, I believe the average supporter knows who the good guys are. I'd like to think it possible for the good guys to come together and either help lead or at least visibly support/advise those who wish to lead fans through engaging with the club in the coming months. Getting such a group together and all singing from the same hymn sheet will be hard for the avarage fan and club to ignore.
I posted yesterday evening about the crowd that I saw behind the West Stand while I was buying tickets (regarding the number). As said already, I am neither an apologist for nor an opponent of the protests. I was just buying tickets at the same time as the protest took place. Again, I could have missed something, I don't know.
I heard nothing on Saturday afternoon that I would consider xenophobic or misogynist, nothing relating to Ms Meire's gender or nationality. There has been quite a few posts on this forum which used misogynist language - I have noticed that - but nothing that I noticed on Saturday. If I had noticed it on Saturday, I would have said.
The point must come through clearly and be stated whenever possible: we are not criticising you because you're a woman, or a Belgian - we are criticising you because you are incompetent....as well as dishonest.
Then why is the connection there within the songs, shouting and posts
If this is not about anything than her ability to do her job and not where she is from or the fact she is a woman then I am certain that there's enough words In the dictionary to fire off so that she understands you are questioning her ability
And also has the agenda now changed and we don't want roland out, just Meire? (Waste of 10,000 flyers)!
Surely she is just the puppet for RD lose KM, Rd stays nothing changes, remove RD they both go seems the focus should never be on KM to get the result wanted
I really cannot see what has sparked this though apart from a poor run of results due to an excessive injury list and thin squad which more than likely would've been addressed in January
Ok, so here is how to execute the 'walk out' idea....
10 mins in - everyone walks out. Complete max exodus from those who actually have the bottle to do it.
20 mins in - everyone piles back in to the songs that need to be sung to get the point across.
Knowing our luck we'll score two outstanding goals in the 9th and 10th minutes and be playing like Brazil. Just when you need us to play as we usually do
I really cannot see what has sparked this though apart from a poor run of results due to an excessive injury list and thin squad which more than likely would've been addressed in January
I really cannot see what has sparked this though apart from a poor run of results due to an excessive injury list and thin squad which more than likely would've been addressed in January
Comments
Just reading this and other comments after watching the video, which is the first time I ever got to see and hear KM in a live situation for any length of time.
I think you are setting the Trust the task of working out what is the spectrum of opinion now, and what is the majority. How would you suggest it do that in a way which is accepted? I can only think of another survey. That takes time, and our survey pro is worried that too many in a short space of time isn't best practice.
The other thing I'd ask is about your sentence
This will not be an easy task, but surely part of what the Trust is for, for members and non-members alike.
Given the level of vitriol poured on the Trust by some posters on here (which is nothing compared to other places) can you understand the extreme reluctance to presume that we represent anything more than our members? And that even among our current members there are widely differing views about what the Trust's stance and actions should be?
Its a discussion that we are having within the Trust team, and it isn't an easy one. We are all just volunteers. Fortunately this Trust board all gets on well with each other, but we have jobs, family, newborns in some cases...
On here I can read the views of people I've met such as yourself, NLA, Fanny, and others whom I feel I know even though I never met them. I read one view and think, yes I agree, and then next up an equally persuasive opposite view.
How would you go about working out the "majority mood" ? I have no idea, other than a survey. Anything other than reasonably robust figures will simply set off another round of "who do they think they are" type criticism.
What would you recommend?
I've just watched the video, and i felt she answered questions quite fairly, and as she said we start from now to include fans in decision making and all meetings will be filmed for everyone to see.
what else is it that you want to happen?
Think who ever runs the fan group need to take serious action.
In the end there are more of us than them. Although apart from RD we are older.
10 mins in - everyone walks out. Complete max exodus from those who actually have the bottle to do it.
20 mins in - everyone piles back in to the songs that need to be sung to get the point across.
The reason why it shouldn't be the first ten minutes is because there is a risk that it just isn't picked up by the commentators that anything of significance is happening - especially as we all know there will be at least 2000 or so do-gooders who won't join in with the protest.
Do it ten mins after the game has started, so people watching at home have to sit up and say to themselves "hang on....what's all this about?"
The attempts to properly force our views home have been pretty tame so far IMO (the protest and last nights Q&A) - seriously, this needs to be done big and be done properly.
Wow, that is a bit of a challenge this early in the morning, but I’ll give it a go:
Why does the Trust need to do something?
In my view, and I believe in the view of many other supporters, we are at a critical point in the history of Charlton Athletic Football Club. I won’t rehearse here all the misgivings already eloquently expressed about club strategy, policy, operational funding, recruitment and appointments capability and the general quality of the footballing “product”. Suffice to say these misgivings range from extreme anger on one end of the spectrum to apathy on the other. There are also those who profess themselves satisfied with the current regime, or who aren’t entirely comfortable but fear the possible consequences if Roland Duchatelet withdraws (unlikely in my opinion) or sells to an “even worse” regime.
It is not currently clear what proportion of our active supporters and wider fan base fall into each of these three categories. For ease of reference, let’s call them:
- Angry
- Satisfied
- Fearful
I acknowledge that Roland Duchatelet and his regime have brought a welcome degree of financial stability. The stadium and pitch have had much needed capital expenditure and the proposed development of training facilities should both have a positive impact on the playing performances and on the attraction and accelerated development of academy talent. Let’s leave aside for now the question of whether that academy talent would be retained to make a lasting contribution to our first team fortunes or sold to fund the operating costs of the club - the so called “footballer farm” concept.
However, despite these investments there is very little about the club that feels right at the moment. Despite occasional bursts of good form the quality of footballl we have played during Duchatelet’s tenure has been pretty consistently poor; the operational performance of the non-playing side of the club has been poor; the lack of supporter/fan “customer” focus and meaningful two-way communication and engagement has been lamentable. In short, it feels to me that almost everything about the club that I have loved and supported all my life is changing, is under threat. If Roland Duchatelet and his regime carry on in the way they have so far, CAFC may well continue to exist but it will have changed beyond recognition and probably beyond repair.
Now, and with apologies for quoting the Trust’s own material at you, it exists amongst other things to:
- give fans a voice and to act as positive force
- preserve Charlton Athletic Football Club for this and future generations
- give the fans a voice and represent their interests in the running of the Club
- assist in preserving the long term future of the Club, it’s history, culture, values and identity in our Community.
I believe in those aims and objectives, which is why I joined the Trust. And yes, I appreciate that the people on the Trust Board have real lives and related time pressures. I respect and admire all those fans currently and previously involved in forming and taking forward the Trust concept. I also believe we face an existential crisis, one that the Trust itself exists to tackle. I know that is a big ask, and the degree of vitriol aimed at the Trust in some places must be frustrating and exhausting, but perhaps this is an opportunity to reach out again to all parts of the fan base and further the Trust’s aims.
While I also respect the other supporters groups and the very valuable contributions of those that set up and run on-line fora such as CL, You have over a thousand paying members and many more associated fans. I do not believe there is any other supporters group which has the same degree of legitimacy as the Trust in representing the views of Charlton fans, nor the same opportunity to co-ordinate and coalesce a worthy response to the crisis.
What should the Trust do?
For the reasons given above, I do not think that there is a “do nothing” option.
The Trust needs to (if it hasn’t already) take a position on what is going on at Charlton. Is it good or bad for the future existence and spirit of our club? If there is a balance, what can be done to reinforce and support the positives whilst encouraging the Board and management to address the negatives - something which you are clearly already doing but with mixed views on the likely efficacy of those attempts. If the Board and management are not prepared to engage meaningfully, are perceived to be paying lip-service to fan engagement, what then?
To do this in a representative way (otherwise the Trust itself becomes simply a small minority pressure group and would probably lose a large number of its paying members), I think the Trust need to go beyond the idea of another simple survey. I think it needs to understand the wide spectrum of views and have a good idea of the proportions falling into the Angry, Satisfied and Fearful categories I mentioned earlier. That means undertaking a widespread consultation process, with other supporters groups, with members on internet fora, on social media and even by standing outside every entrance and taking a poll of views. You need to be able to say with a degree of certainty what the fan base really thinks and thus give legitimacy to the actions, if any, that the Trust undertake.
This will clearly take time; maybe even the rest of this season. Meanwhile, anger levels are high and protests will continue in the various relatively un-co-ordinated forms highlighted by a read through this forum. You can’t stop those - but while the consultation process is going on you could certainly at least monitor and report on:
- what protests are planned
- the level of support they attract (for example, shouldn't the Trust know how many fans took part in the protest last week?)
- their effects
so that a fuller picture is established and lessons can be learned.
I would also argue that the Trust could play an active role in supporting those protests - advising on tactics, spreading the word, sourcing materials and so on. I guess that depends on whether the Trust has taken “a position” on what is going on at Charlton and how visible you want the Trust’s support to be. One the one hand, active support may jeopardise the Trust’s chances of a warmer relationship and further engagement with the Charlton Board; on the other, a lack of support and action may jeapordise the existence of the Trust or at least it’s level of membership.
A difficult call, and an uncomfortable position to be in - but so is sitting on the fence. And, as unfair as it may sound to you and your colleagues on the Trust Board, sitting on the fence is what you are, or are in danger of, being perceived to be doing.
Thanks. Just read through it, the others on the Board will too. Deserves thought and considered replies.
That means undertaking a widespread consultation process, with other supporters groups, with members on internet fora, on social media and even by standing outside every entrance and taking a poll of views. You need to be able to say with a degree of certainty what the fan base really thinks and thus give legitimacy to the actions, if any, that the Trust undertake.
I think this is key. At this point in time, we don't really know the views of the wider fan base. There have been plenty of online surveys, but as we know, many fans are not involved in the various online communities. My feeling is, if we don't know what the views of the wider fan base are, how can we hope to come up with the right solution on how to take things forward?
I realise the Trust are real people with their own lives and work on a voluntary basis, but maybe it's the perfect time to engage all of the supporters groups to rally round. If everyone uses the same tool too poll their members and those that can, help out on match-days to gather the wider views, you'll end up with some pretty good data. Once you have the data you will then be in a position to know if there is actually a mandate for action, and if there is, all the groups could take a collective approach to tackle the issues.
Of course there are downsides that taking a longer term approach to gathering views, particularly in the fact that football fans can change their views on a result by result basis, but I do think it's worth considering.
but maybe it's the perfect time to engage all of the supporters groups to rally round. If everyone uses the same tool too poll their members and those that can, help out on match-days to gather the wider views, you'll end up with some pretty good data.
is a very constructive idea, and I reckon the others will agree. Implementing it will be a challenge, but if there is goodwill all round it can be done.
Having said that we already have enough data from the most recent survey to challenge KM's "2% remark", and will do so.
- those who think meaningful dialogue is still possible and will continue to try and communicate with KM etc in a respectful and professional way (as they did last night - and I admire them)
- those who think attempts at meaningful dialogue are clearly not going to work. IMO the video shows that KM etc are merely paying lip service to the fans and have no intension of having dialogue, indeed they seem not to understand why fans want it.
I wanted to see the video and gather my thoughts whilst reading other people's views but am now so angry that I am most definitely in the second camp. I see absolutely no point in trying any further as it is a total waste of energy. For me the time is right for protest and I will gladly take part in any lawful ones.
As many fans as possible need to show they feel the same way as the 300, even if they might not act in the same way under provocation.
Whatever your views on what the Trust should or shouldn't be leading on, it has proved it is a viable vehicle to collate opinions and views. It can't organise or lead protest unless it has a mandate and unless that mandate is from a sizeable number of fans the messages to the club can be picked off as non-representative. Views could be canvassed and collated by category - season ticket holder, young, old etc., the form of protest and stand on abusive personal protest. Data is king in this day and age, we could use it to produce a powerpoint presentation that knocks KM's into a cocked hat and prove to @kentred2 whether he is in the majority or not.
I support the Trust because it's worth giving it a chance, to ignore it's potential in situations we now find ourselves in makes no sense to me.
I also agree about the black and white campaign being another way of keeping the issue uppermost in the minds of our glorious leaders when they see the crowd on a matchday. Some folk don't go in for vocal protesting, so this gives them the chance to quietly speak volumes in their own way (sorry, that last sentence was a crime against the English language). Others can go the vocal route, which cannot be ignored, as Saturday's protest proved.
On the last point, I very much agree that we must be smart about what we do as KM's strategy appears to be to paint herself as a victim of sexism/xenophobia and she cannot be allowed to portray herself as the innocent damsel being hectored by aggressive male crowds. The point must come through clearly and be stated whenever possible: we are not criticising you because you're a woman, or a Belgian - we are criticising you because you are incompetent....as well as dishonest. If we can make sure that female protesters are front and centre whenever protests are filmed, for example...this might help dispel this myth in the eyes of the media, which is very the battleground that we have to take to, whether we like it or not. Making sure that media articles are more likely to be sympathetic to us will help immensely. A possible idea to help with this would be, for instance to produce a fact sheet with data on transfers, attendances, notable statements (e.g the classic '20 candidates' line and the new modern classic 'every manager has been an improvement') then it makes it easy for journos to contextualize the protests. The appearance of said facts in the media time after time will hammer the point home and hopefully bring the wider media over to our side.
Can I finish by thanking everyone who has been fighting the good fight, whether that is protesting, organising or questions (e.g Seth - kudos to you for taking on a difficult job; I know how easy it is to criticise others who actually have the nerve to step up to plate in an almost impossible situation). Watching from afar, it is very frustrating to see all of this unfold without being able to be directly involved (I'll have to wait until Christmas time to do that). It is no exaggeration to say that I definitely feel a whiff of the back to the Valley spirit around all this - and we all know how powerful that spirit has proved to be in the past!
In the end, if we can stay united and focussed - we WILL get our Charlton back.
As someone who perhaps more than anyone on the receiving end of that reluctance of the club to engage despite a very persistent and positive agenda i find this a little bizarre. Indeed in one of our rare meetings with KM we encouraged her to get out and reassure the fans, and when this finally happened it was too little too late.
We identified the growing crisis of apathy and disaffection we were witnessing, i spoke to a lot of fans as chair, but also could be seen on social media; but when we tried to raise it we were denied, and a request drafted collectively by the TB and delivered by myself to discuss the malaise was casually rejected. Despite that we still proceeded positively to a meeting to listen and try and understand those fans, and pressed on dor dialogue.
This was received and commented on as a breech of trust, a comment which i found very insulting and unfair. I bit my lip in order to give the new TB and chair the best chance in continuing that positive agenda, and they have done a very good job in my view of that since despite difficulties.
My resignation from the TB was due to the enormous energy it took to maintain while being largely ignored by the club and undermined by some, in attempts to try and recapture that fuzzy feeling, to where we were under a Supporters Director. I came to the stage where I could no longer sustain that energy in the face of such clear rejection of those approaches, in preference of a box ticking exercise which the FF had always been restricted to.
In terms of the meeting. For me a more genuine approach to engagement would not involve such overt attempts to manage and control meetings like this one.
Anyway..
What came out of the meeting was a committment to try and communicate better, but not a lot else and certainly not enough humility in admitting mistakes.
But also some poor handling of the issues one of which being protest, this is a football club not a bowls club, i dont agree with personal abuse, but expecting fans not to be passionate is just ridiculous.
On the Strategy front
*We are still part of an experiment that brings in cheap unrealised talent, and backs that up with small squads that include little in the way of experienced hands.
*Those small squads expose young talent too rapidly as crisis hits when the thin squad buckles, and must be counterproductive
*Managers who are chosen for their work with youth (we are told) but due to preference of patronage of the owner over experience and proven track record, they don't hang around long enough to have much impact. To me Its probably more accurate that they accept the strategic approach outlined above, and are therefore trusted to do so.
*The club could address this, by increasing the budget which i personally think is pitched unrealistically low, to avoid the continual struggle - for me either to bring in more of that talent to offset the failures, or to mix in more experience alongside them
As for the fans, we have a break now, and choices to consider. If we have a meeting or a survey people may still vote with their feet in whatever direction, although I think one or both must happen at some point by way of response.
Then why is the connection there within the songs, shouting and posts
If this is not about anything than her ability to do her job and not where she is from or the fact she is a woman then I am certain that there's enough words In the dictionary to fire off so that she understands you are questioning her ability
I agree it's important to get a measure of the fans and how they're feeling and I hear what you say about survey fatigue. Could we find a theme around "the club and fans engaging together" and demonstrate the amount of support for that in a silent, visual way during the Ipswich game. Maybe give everyone going into the game a sheet of paper to hold up at a pre-ordained moment. This will quickly and easily demonstrate whether the number is 2% or not.
My 2nd thought concerns fans leadership. I start by saying I don't know any of you guys well at all but have been around long enough to perceive that on the fans side there are some big personal and/or "political" differences. However, I believe the average supporter knows who the good guys are. I'd like to think it possible for the good guys to come together and either help lead or at least visibly support/advise those who wish to lead fans through engaging with the club in the coming months. Getting such a group together and all singing from the same hymn sheet will be hard for the avarage fan and club to ignore.
I heard nothing on Saturday afternoon that I would consider xenophobic or misogynist, nothing relating to Ms Meire's gender or nationality. There has been quite a few posts on this forum which used misogynist language - I have noticed that - but nothing that I noticed on Saturday. If I had noticed it on Saturday, I would have said.
(Waste of 10,000 flyers)!
imagine being the first premier league club to field 11 players that came through our academy