I can't understand all the obtuse remarks about individuals and their perceived agendas and motivations. We have accusations of egoism, bitterness, the desire for praise or power or recognition, often made in an obscure 'I reckon' manner. May I suggest that if posters want to dig out fellow supporters then they ought to have the courage to list their names, and alongside those names list precise accusations. I think backing up those accusations with evidence may prove too difficult to hope for.
• And as for the other point about noses out of joint, the Trust were reasonably happy to play a long game with the new owners and demonstrate our worth.
R
Out of interest, what changed that?
Its not changed wholly, other than that when a critical situation emerged we wanted dialogue, and were refused
I think there was also a bit of wait and see, and to their credit the club have fixed the immediate issue it would appear of not having a fit for purpose squad. Seems to be quick fix though, and I think the summer will be very indicative as to where the squad is going.
To be honest I shouldn't really talk at great length as its really up to the people now in TB to take this forward.
Back to VFFs point, I'd agree that the squad thinness and on the pitch crisis was also an element, but a short term one. I think it would be a mistake to ignore the longer term trends
I think the lack of conversation goes back to the Group of 21 asking for a meeting. There are a lot of people now running the club who wouldn't know what these people achieved and possibly thought they didn't represent the majority of supporters. Then the Trust declined a meeting with a representative from the club as they wanted to speak to the CEO only. If they had taken up that offer, then a dialogue could have been achieved. Whats happened now is that nobody wants to climb down from their stand. I remember back to the Cuba missile crisis when JFK decided not to answer a communication from Kruschev but reply to an earlier one, and some sort of peace was achieved. It might be an idea to refloat the idea of meeting a representative and thereby establish a dialogue that may get the CEO involved after a period time
I think the lack of conversation goes back to the Group of 21 asking for a meeting. There are a lot of people now running the club who wouldn't know what these people achieved and possibly thought they didn't represent the majority of supporters. Then the Trust declined a meeting with a representative from the club as they wanted to speak to the CEO only. If they had taken up that offer, then a dialogue could have been achieved. Whats happened now is that nobody wants to climb down from their stand. I remember back to the Cuba missile crisis when JFK decided not to answer a communication from Kruschev but reply to an earlier one, and some sort of peace was achieved. It might be an idea to refloat the idea of meeting a representative and thereby establish a dialogue that may get the CEO involved after a period time
As Razil has posted, and has been explained already this was not a case of 'only' wanting to speak to the CEO. Not sure about the Cuban missile crisis!........ but your idea to 'refloat' this process is agreed....... has been on the trust website for a day or so........ http://www.castrust.org/2015/03/attempts-at-dialogue-to-continue/
i will post it..... to avoid going around in circles........... We have approached the board once again in order to secure an initial conversation on these matters. We hope to start to build towards a meaningful and ongoing link between the owner and the club’s supporters, for mutual benefit, in order to support success and preserve the long-term identity of Charlton Athletic Football Club.
We hope and expect that the concerns of supporters will be recognised by the club’s leaders, and that they will respond appropriately. Therefore we do not support alternative action at this time.
As has been mentioned before it was an operational meeting, and one of our number was already due to attend.
As Barnie who was the chair at the time has posted........ the trust were already speaking to that person..... that 'someone'. Rikofold did explain this last week......
Ken, cannot you use the FF to have meaningful dialogue with the club? That way even the people that are not part or share the same views as the trust can have an input? That way we could all move forward 'as one'
Ken, cannot you use the FF to have meaningful dialogue with the club? That way even the people that are not part or share the same views as the trust can have an input? That way we could all move forward 'as one'
My understanding is that the Trust is part of the Fans' Forum so does indeed engage via that route.
I stand to be corrected by those more au fait with Club politics but as I understand it the Fans' Forum engages with the Club very much on the Club's terms only and thus is not independent.
My understanding, as just an ordinary member, is that the Trust sees itself as an INDEPENDENT body representing the fans of Charlton Athletic Football Club. That key word independent renders it necessary for the Trust to establish its own communication links.
As Barnie who was the chair at the time has posted........ the trust were already speaking to that person..... that 'someone'. Rikofold did explain this last week......
Ken, cannot you use the FF to have meaningful dialogue with the club? That way even the people that are not part or share the same views as the trust can have an input? That way we could all move forward 'as one'
My understanding is that the Trust is part of the Fans' Forum so does indeed engage via that route.
I stand to be corrected by those more au fait with Club politics but as I understand it the Fans' Forum engages with the Club very much on the Club's terms only and thus is not independent.
My understanding, as just an ordinary member, is that the Trust sees itself as an INDEPENDENT body representing the fans of Charlton Athletic Football Club. That key word independent renders it necessary for the Trust to establish its own communication links.
Everyone else on the FF is also independent and I am sure not matter what meeting you get it will always be on there terms.
By the sounds of it the trust seek an exclusive meeting with the club where only they are present and only there views are on offer (unless you pay your fiver)
yes that is right @cafc999 the Trust as a representative group want to have an exclusive meeting with the owner / CEO, the same way that Bromley Addicks tonight want an exclusive meeting with the CEO for its members and not a shared meeting with Maidstone, East Kent, NWKA etc ata neutral venue in Sevenoaks, nor do Bromley want the CEO to reject but offer to send Tina from the office to speak to them instead. Rightly so on all counts. Its vital that the CEO reaches out to as many of these types as she can.
I can't for like of me understand why people continue want to outright hammer them, or just as bad, continually chip away in negative sense. No group of volunteers is ever perfect, nor will it ever fully allign with everyone's viewpoint. When it is wide off the mark (as it has been on occassions in the past), the majority of people have clearly make that known.
But these things only exist through the general support of people, and the energy of those prepared to step up, put the work in, and in doing so put themselves up as a target. If all the work only ever results in criticism, snipes or sly digs, that energy soon seeps away and it becomes draining. The result is pople either walk away or contribute less.
I've not always been a fan of everything the Trust as a board have tried to involve themselves in (everything!), or the way they have approached other things (too aggressive, too PR), but I accept as a new and quickly growing group it was always going to make mistakes. But come on, it seems to have evolved a lot from those early days, for a volunteer group they have got themselves hugely organised and structured, through real fans like me and you.
Can they help achieve anything by engaging with KM or RD? Who knows.
But there's got to be a time surely the digs stop and people give them a break?
yes that is right @cafc999 the Trust as a representative group want to have an exclusive meeting with the owner / CEO, the same way that Bromley Addicks tonight want an exclusive meeting with the CEO for its members and not a shared meeting with Maidstone, East Kent, NWKA etc ata neutral venue in Sevenoaks, nor do Bromley want the CEO to reject but offer to send Tina from the office to speak to them instead. Rightly so on all counts. Its vital that the CEO reaches out to as many of these types as she can.
I can't for like of me understand why people continue want to outright hammer them, or just as bad, continually chip away in negative sense. No group of volunteers is ever perfect, nor will it ever fully allign with everyone's viewpoint. When it is wide off the mark (as it has been on occassions in the past), the majority of people have clearly make that known.
But these things only exist through the general support of people, and the energy of those prepared to step up, put the work in, and in doing so put themselves up as a target. If all the work only ever results in criticism, snipes or sly digs, that energy soon seeps away and it becomes draining. The result is pople either walk away or contribute less.
I've not always been a fan of everything the Trust as a board have tried to involve themselves in (everything!), or the way they have approached other things (too aggressive, too PR), but I accept as a new and quickly growing group it was always going to make mistakes. But come on, it seems to have evolved a lot from those early days, for a volunteer group they have got themselves hugely organised and structured, through real fans like me and you.
Can they help achieve anything by engaging with KM or RD? Who knows.
But there's got to be a time surely the digs stop and people give them a break?
I can't remember Bromley Addicks, or others, requesting 'meaningful' dialogue with the Owner, calling a Public Meeting or threatening other courses of actions though.
AFKA you are right, the difference being that Bromley addicts and other supporter groups do not claim to be the voice of every Charlton fan.
IMHO the trust has had good opportunity via the FF and by using the official means of communication (Richard Murray) but have failed to act. The club and the trust are bad as each other (the trusts only saving grace is that they are volunteers and do not work on it full time)
In principle, the trust is a good idea but with the owner being as stubborn as we know he is then it is doomed. Saying that, and as a former member of the trust, I wish them well in the future.
Ken, cannot you use the FF to have meaningful dialogue with the club? That way even the people that are not part or share the same views as the trust can have an input? That way we could all move forward 'as one'
My understanding is that the Trust is part of the Fans' Forum so does indeed engage via that route.
I stand to be corrected by those more au fait with Club politics but as I understand it the Fans' Forum engages with the Club very much on the Club's terms only and thus is not independent.
My understanding, as just an ordinary member, is that the Trust sees itself as an INDEPENDENT body representing the fans of Charlton Athletic Football Club. That key word independent renders it necessary for the Trust to establish its own communication links.
Just my personal opinion, but I think the question posed by @cafc999 could be asked another way. Why wouldn't the club want to engage with a large group of supporters who are willing to put their own time aside to help them? Over the last 25 years or so, supporters have been involved by the club at a senior level - as well as operational levels - because they recognised the supporters are vital to the club's understanding of how it might develop. Today we're coming to the club, but with little success before now.
For example, personally I think the club are probably right to seek to influence our culture to ensure that it is relevant to younger supporters, if that is indeed what they are doing, but how much more effective would it be if that was with supporters rather than doing it to them? It might avoid, perhaps, losing older generations who - let's face it - are the ones bringing the younger ones along and paying for them. More and more season ticket holders are not coming to the games, despite the up turn in form - why wouldn't the club be asking supporters, why is that happening, how can we arrest it?
Meetings with supporters clubs and even the VIPs is essentially a personal appearance. Fans are given the chance to question and hear an answer, but that is not comparable with an ongoing conversation between two groups of people aimed at mutual developmental benefit.
Incidentally, the Supporters' Trust hasn't said anywhere that it is the only group that KM can or should meet. Right now, though, it seems it's the only one she's refusing to meet - and I believe that's because it will feel a more threatening prospect. But actually we want to help her and help the club develop, and hope that she would recognise that what happens at an operational level is heavily constrained by the decisions taken by the CEO and the owner. If the influence can be at that level as well then there's everything to gain and little to lose, isn't there?
I hope that answers the question. It's probably easier to answer these yourself if you park any preconceptions and see us as we actually are: a bunch of volunteers trying to help the club and its supporters, imperfectly, in our spare time, but with a passion arising from believing everyone can win if the club was genuinely wanting to work together for a better future rather than looking for a good PR message.
AFKA you are right, the difference being that Bromley addicts and other supporter groups do not claim to be the voice of every Charlton fan.
IMHO the trust has had good opportunity via the FF and by using the official means of communication (Richard Murray) but have failed to act. The club and the trust are bad as each other (the trusts only saving grace is that they are volunteers and do not work on it full time)
In principle, the trust is a good idea but with the owner being as stubborn as we know he is then it is doomed. Saying that, and as a former member of the trust, I wish them well in the future.
Neither do the Trust claim to be the Voice of every Charlton fan, but to represent the fans who have wanted to join, and be represented by those (volunteers) who will attempt to do so. The Trust is also part of a wider Trust movement:
....and in that context they are a level or two beyond the 'ad hoc'.
The Trust is credible because it is an attempt to be a body of Charlton fans trying to strengthen not weaken the existence of Charlton Athletic. A lot of businesses actively want engagement with their customers (supporters), and those self same customers usually don't have to go looking for it either.
two questions: did KM offer the Trust another staff member whom they could engage with? did the Trust take her up on this offer?
Yes and yes - but seriously both questions have been answered so many times on this forum and even this thread. I refer you back to AFKA's comment for his view on the appropriateness of that response, and my last comment to understand why we feel there are different levels of engagement needed. Please, let's not keep going back over old ground.
Seth, I fully understand what the trust wants to be but when you have people from the trust shouting in the street "join the trust and get the belgian out' it kind of ruins your point.
Seth, I fully understand what the trust wants to be but when you have people from the trust shouting in the street "join the trust and get the belgian out' it kind of ruins your point.
I have not heard this, but I accept that you have, but 'people'? Or a person? I don't see however why people/a person you heard shouting in the street ruins my point. I have also heard some unsavoury chanting and comments from our support, but that does not invalidate the support as a whole.
Seth, I fully understand what the trust wants to be but when you have people from the trust shouting in the street "join the trust and get the belgian out' it kind of ruins your point.
I have not heard this, but I accept that you have, but 'people'? Or a person? I don't see however why people/a person you heard shouting in the street ruins my point. I have also heard some unsavoury chanting and comments from our support, but that does not invalidate the support as a whole.
Seth, stop clutching at straws and comparing what I and many other people have witnessed to what crowds chant in the ground.
As the post above indicates, it was one of the 4 points on your survey.
My survey? I think you mean the Trusts survey...not that I am against a range of questions on a survey. As for clutching at straws, well repeating what you have witnessed for yourself is not exactly a solid foundation to make much of a case against the Trust when compared with the actual researchable facts that exist.
Comments
May I suggest that if posters want to dig out fellow supporters then they ought to have the courage to list their names, and alongside those names list precise accusations. I think backing up those accusations with evidence may prove too difficult to hope for.
I think there was also a bit of wait and see, and to their credit the club have fixed the immediate issue it would appear of not having a fit for purpose squad. Seems to be quick fix though, and I think the summer will be very indicative as to where the squad is going.
To be honest I shouldn't really talk at great length as its really up to the people now in TB to take this forward.
Back to VFFs point, I'd agree that the squad thinness and on the pitch crisis was also an element, but a short term one. I think it would be a mistake to ignore the longer term trends
Not sure about the Cuban missile crisis!........ but your idea to 'refloat' this process is agreed....... has been on the trust website for a day or so........
http://www.castrust.org/2015/03/attempts-at-dialogue-to-continue/
i will post it..... to avoid going around in circles...........
We have approached the board once again in order to secure an initial conversation on these matters. We hope to start to build towards a meaningful and ongoing link between the owner and the club’s supporters, for mutual benefit, in order to support success and preserve the long-term identity of Charlton Athletic Football Club.
We hope and expect that the concerns of supporters will be recognised by the club’s leaders, and that they will respond appropriately. Therefore we do not support alternative action at this time.
Rikofold did explain this last week......
Maybe the new chair would like to answer..??
I stand to be corrected by those more au fait with Club politics but as I understand it the Fans' Forum engages with the Club very much on the Club's terms only and thus is not independent.
My understanding, as just an ordinary member, is that the Trust sees itself as an INDEPENDENT body representing the fans of Charlton Athletic Football Club. That key word independent renders it necessary for the Trust to establish its own communication links.
As Barnie who was the chair at the time has posted........ the trust were already speaking to that person..... that 'someone'.
Rikofold did explain this last week......
I wonder why I bother
By the sounds of it the trust seek an exclusive meeting with the club where only they are present and only there views are on offer (unless you pay your fiver)
I can't for like of me understand why people continue want to outright hammer them, or just as bad, continually chip away in negative sense. No group of volunteers is ever perfect, nor will it ever fully allign with everyone's viewpoint. When it is wide off the mark (as it has been on occassions in the past), the majority of people have clearly make that known.
But these things only exist through the general support of people, and the energy of those prepared to step up, put the work in, and in doing so put themselves up as a target. If all the work only ever results in criticism, snipes or sly digs, that energy soon seeps away and it becomes draining. The result is pople either walk away or contribute less.
I've not always been a fan of everything the Trust as a board have tried to involve themselves in (everything!), or the way they have approached other things (too aggressive, too PR), but I accept as a new and quickly growing group it was always going to make mistakes. But come on, it seems to have evolved a lot from those early days, for a volunteer group they have got themselves hugely organised and structured, through real fans like me and you.
Can they help achieve anything by engaging with KM or RD? Who knows.
But there's got to be a time surely the digs stop and people give them a break?
IMHO the trust has had good opportunity via the FF and by using the official means of communication (Richard Murray) but have failed to act. The club and the trust are bad as each other (the trusts only saving grace is that they are volunteers and do not work on it full time)
In principle, the trust is a good idea but with the owner being as stubborn as we know he is then it is doomed. Saying that, and as a former member of the trust, I wish them well in the future.
For example, personally I think the club are probably right to seek to influence our culture to ensure that it is relevant to younger supporters, if that is indeed what they are doing, but how much more effective would it be if that was with supporters rather than doing it to them? It might avoid, perhaps, losing older generations who - let's face it - are the ones bringing the younger ones along and paying for them. More and more season ticket holders are not coming to the games, despite the up turn in form - why wouldn't the club be asking supporters, why is that happening, how can we arrest it?
Meetings with supporters clubs and even the VIPs is essentially a personal appearance. Fans are given the chance to question and hear an answer, but that is not comparable with an ongoing conversation between two groups of people aimed at mutual developmental benefit.
Incidentally, the Supporters' Trust hasn't said anywhere that it is the only group that KM can or should meet. Right now, though, it seems it's the only one she's refusing to meet - and I believe that's because it will feel a more threatening prospect. But actually we want to help her and help the club develop, and hope that she would recognise that what happens at an operational level is heavily constrained by the decisions taken by the CEO and the owner. If the influence can be at that level as well then there's everything to gain and little to lose, isn't there?
I hope that answers the question. It's probably easier to answer these yourself if you park any preconceptions and see us as we actually are: a bunch of volunteers trying to help the club and its supporters, imperfectly, in our spare time, but with a passion arising from believing everyone can win if the club was genuinely wanting to work together for a better future rather than looking for a good PR message.
did KM offer the Trust another staff member whom they could engage with?
did the Trust take her up on this offer?
http://www.supporters-direct.org/homepage/what-we-do/links/supporters-trusts
....and in that context they are a level or two beyond the 'ad hoc'.
The Trust is credible because it is an attempt to be a body of Charlton fans trying to strengthen not weaken the existence of Charlton Athletic. A lot of businesses actively want engagement with their customers (supporters), and those self same customers usually don't have to go looking for it either.
I don't see however why people/a person you heard shouting in the street ruins my point.
I have also heard some unsavoury chanting and comments from our support, but that does not invalidate the support as a whole.
It certainly seems high on someone's agenda.
As the post above indicates, it was one of the 4 points on your survey.
I think you mean the Trusts survey...not that I am against a range of questions on a survey.
As for clutching at straws, well repeating what you have witnessed for yourself is not exactly a solid foundation to make much of a case against the Trust when compared with the actual researchable facts that exist.