Stu, the Trust were/still are seeking meaningful dialogue with the club about the outline strategy (not every detail nor commercial confidences) as, in the past, Charlton enjoyed great success with such a model, it strengthened the connection between owners and fans through thick and thin and we all mutually benefited. Some might say it became a positive part of our culture.
The current owners dismissed this, only wanting our input re "building attendances" and operational issues re fans' forum. We have been providing this all along where asked, but in the end, the whole thing really needs to go hand-in-hand, doesn't it?
It is difficult to help with initiatives on attendance if you don't know the priorities eg fill the Valley no matter the price or bring in younger supporters and not bother re older supporters or attract new fans from SW London or promote the club as edgy/sexy etc etc. What exactly are the objectives?
The Trust were not consulted at all re season tickets nor were any other fan groups to my knowledge, which is a shame, as once again we are left with some of our most loyal fans feeling as though their support is not valued.
I don't want to stir up trouble but they did ask for the Trust's help but the Trust declined anything other than an audience with the very senior management team.
Katrien mentioned this at Ashford last week and gave the impression that she thought it was a snub by the Trust.
I know views differ but had the Trust turned up to the meeting they might have been told what you say you would need to know. Asking for the CEO of a multi-million pound company to explain that to you before you decided to help, or not, makes you (those that declined the opportunity) look arrogant.
Just my view.
More misinformation I'm afraid. The Trust did not decline a meeting with CAFC staff about building attendances. The Trust have attended two such meetings with CAFC staff on that subject. It is just that the Trust chair did not attend.
I'm not doubting you but that is exactly what Katrien said.
Ah, the off the record briefing by a Charlton director that turns out not to be true. Some things haven't changed then.
I don't think I have made any secret about how much I believe of what we are told, but it would be wrong of me to pretend she didn't say it.
As things are getting, dangerously, close to liable and slander I'm, now, choosing my words very carefully.
It ought not to have been written that Katrien said at the meeting that the trust wouldn't meet with her with regard to helping with attendances, and that she thought it was a snub, because it isn't true is it?
'There was a question about the Trust and she was very dismissive of them and said that they asked for a meeting and she asked them to meet with her development team and they said no. She gave the impression that, in her view, that meant that they didn't want to be involved with the club. she didn't say as much but she did seems completely horrified that they wouldn't get involved in helping the club. I have nothing further to add to this, and accept that I might have, completely, misread the situation.'
OK if the above is true Katrien judges the desire of the Trust to be involved with the club in relation to the Trust people meeting her development team. I really can't believe this can be true. Katrien gave an interview to the Trust news, and she is savvy enough to realise the objectives of the trust. On the face of it, it looks like she is dismissive of the Trust as a whole because of an issue regarding a meeting, which wasn't an issue at all according to Pico. Maybe the meeting with the development team happening/not happening is a smokescreen to justify not engaging with the Trust.
So who from the Supporters' Trust IS meeting with the club's development team? We have been told who isn't so who is?
What is being discussed?
What initiatives have been suggested or analysed?
How is the relationship developing?
Are CAST being listened to?
Is this a foot in the door that could give CAST an opprtunity to prove its worth to KM and so blossom into a deeper, wider and more strategic relationship?
Did KM make the offer with the above in mind
or are CAST ideas, as Prague Addick has claimed, being rejected as the club staff feel that that they should have come up with the ideas that CAST have and feel that they are being undermined.
OK if the above is true Katrien judges the desire of the Trust to be involved with the club in relation to the Trust people meeting her development team. I really can't believe this can be true. Katrien gave an interview to the Trust news, and she is savvy enough to realise the objectives of the trust. On the face of it, it looks like she is dismissive of the Trust as a whole because of an issue regarding a meeting, which wasn't an issue at all according to Pico. Maybe the meeting with the development team happening/not happening is a smokescreen to justify not engaging with the Trust.
Seth, I am only speculating, but it is possible that there will be a period of 'distance' between the club and the Trust while both parties adjust to the 'call to arms' that the Trust's meeting in Woolwich could have been interpreted as.
I think the Trust did the right thing calling for the meeting but I would have thought that the immediate outcome would have been a little reluctance by the club to speak to the Trust.
I see that you can still not see the new season ticket prices at cafc.co.uk, and on the 'buy season ticket' link they are still showing half season tickets.
I have a feeling that there might be a development on this, in light of the 'frozen' promise that is not, realistically, what they said it is.
I see that you can still not see the new season ticket prices at cafc.co.uk, and on the 'buy season ticket' link they are still showing half season tickets.
I have a feeling that there might be a development on this, in light of the 'frozen' promise that is not, realistically, what they said it is.
agree, I just tried to find the full list and realised it not on the website
I see that you can still not see the new season ticket prices at cafc.co.uk, and on the 'buy season ticket' link they are still showing half season tickets.
I have a feeling that there might be a development on this, in light of the 'frozen' promise that is not, realistically, what they said it is.
"Renewal forms will not be sent out to supporters unless specifically requested."
I doubt if that's sensible. The mail-out is costly, but it's a major sales opportunity against income of about £2m.
In effect, existing season-ticket holders can't buy a £175 season ticket unless they were in A block last year. I can see why that makes sense to the club; I am not convinced 1) that it is enforceable, given people can apply in any name they like and the club will be none the wiser and 2) that it will be seen as fair by some existing season-ticket holders that new supporters get a better deal. It's what insurance firms often do, but I suspect many people don't regard Charlton in the same way as they do their insurance company.
"Fans can secure their place in SE7 in 2015/16 from just £175 adults" - this is a misleading, bordering on dishonest, statement given the above.
The documentation says nothing that clarifies the over 60s issue that I can see, even though the club is now saying it's only for new applicants as seniors. Expect some angry season-ticket holders about to or recently turned 60 and another U-turn shortly. Additional season ticket revenue from this will be zilch.
M&N block in the upper west have been shafted and the publicity on that is misleading. The U11s announcement was disingenuous, since the total cost is unchanged.
Valley Express pricing consistent with a £10 fare.
I can't see the programme vouchers amounting to much, especially as you still have to play hunt the seller.
I do think the technology investment is a good thing and to be welcomed, assuming it works, but it is not really a key element of the experience for supporters. Prices remain good value, notwithstanding all the above.
"Renewal forms will not be sent out to supporters unless specifically requested."
I was about to post this.
Season tickets are now on sale with application forms being available from the Valley Ticket Office. Alternatively fans can download an application form by clicking here and return it in the post or in person. Renewal forms will not be sent out to supporters unless specifically requested.
Not all season ticket holders will be aware of this as they do not use the internet, nor buy a programme.
Please note that block H in the lower tier of the West Stand will only be available to new season-ticket purchases, however tickets will not be on sale in this block until Block A in the East Stand is sold out.
That is, my guess, to stop people downgrading then. We'll see how well that works in practice.
Man walks up to ticket office window
"Two season tickets in block H please, great price for me and my kid"
"Sorry, you can't buy them but we've got a couple of singles in A block"
"No, i want two together in H Block as the name brings back vivid memories of time in Ulster"
"Er, sorry, can't sell them to you yet. Can you come back in a couple of months and if we've sold out A block you can have some"
"but I'm here now with my money"
"Sorry, by the way, did you have a season ticket last season?
"yes, but I'm short of cash since the divorce and wanted a cheaper option and to spend some time with my son"
"Oh, well you can't buy one anyway. How about a lounge pass"
So last year they send everybody's season ticket renewal forms to the wrong address and this year they solve the problem by not sending out any renewal forms at all?!!
'To ensure best value for money fans should submit their application forms before Friday, April 10th which is the deadline for the first phase of season-ticket prices.'
This suggests that the price might go up after 10th April. However, they haven't said it will which gives them the scope to make up their mind once they get to the 11th and see what the take up is.
There are a few old gits (even older than me!!) in and around where I sit.
If I bet any time other than on pearls of wisdom emanating from Guru @PeanutsMolloy on here then I'd lump on a good number of them not being regular internet users or internet users at all so how are they supposed to renew / find out about the renewal process?
"Renewal forms will not be sent out to supporters unless specifically requested."
I was about to post this.
Season tickets are now on sale with application forms being available from the Valley Ticket Office. Alternatively fans can download an application form by clicking here and return it in the post or in person. Renewal forms will not be sent out to supporters unless specifically requested.
Not all season ticket holders will be aware of this as they do not use the internet, nor buy a programme.
I'll be starting a Chinese whisper ( no offence meant, Jessie!) in row K, East Stand, Block E tomorrow evening which, by the time it gets back to me will ensure EVERYONE present is fully informed about this.
However, there is a danger that fans might be confused to hear that new worm farms will be set up to support the useless, specially tested method of aerating the pitch with forks.
"Renewal forms will not be sent out to supporters unless specifically requested."
I was about to post this.
Season tickets are now on sale with application forms being available from the Valley Ticket Office. Alternatively fans can download an application form by clicking here and return it in the post or in person. Renewal forms will not be sent out to supporters unless specifically requested.
Not all season ticket holders will be aware of this as they do not use the internet, nor buy a programme.
The club will argue, reasonably, that it has four matches to create awareness before April 10th and that existing holders will be there. Just to mail ST holders is going to cost about £10k and you would usually target other supporters, so could easily spend £15-£20k. However, I think a minority of people will expect the club to have the courtesy to contact them in return for a purchase of several hundred pounds and the club may find it becomes the tipping point if those people are already doubtful about renewing. You can also never underestimate how hard it is to get to 100 per cent of purchasers - and certainly to would-be purchasers.
So Katrien lied at the East Kent meeting which no-one wants to talk about?
No I don't believe she lied. She certainly wasn't correct in what she said but I think there's a fair explanation. When she made the invitation to Barnie, she copied the Development Officer who replied to tell her he could join the regular meeting I already have with her. She's busy and I imagine Barnie declining might have had a bigger impact on her than the fact it was already happening, given the context.
Had she recalled that mail, she'd know that her words could simply be debunked, so I'm happy to believe she'd forgotten she'd been told that, or simply missed it in what I'm sure is a full postbag.
@Henry Irving To answer your question as far as I believe I'm free to, I've personally met a couple of times with various people involved in club development, and there's more in the diary now KM's given the green light to us working at this level. It's below the strategic level we feel supporters should be involved, the level you were once involved indeed. After all these guys have to work with the challenges that come with misaligned if well-intentioned business decisions - not easy to sell a season ticket to someone feeling disenfranchised, for example - but it's fair to say it's also a level above where the Fans' Forum is working to. For the avoidance of doubt, it is definitely not supplanting or undermining the FF and that's something I'm determined to avoid. It's been relatively informal to date to be fair, we've discussed some initiatives and some challenges - but it is early days.
I can't believe that they will not post out applications. It would be close to suicide not to.
I have to confess that I'm looking forward to getting the credit card ticket. It will make it much easier to ditch the 'man bag' when I don't have to worry about two of those booklets.
There are a few old gits (even older than me!!) in and around where I sit.
If I bet any time other than on pearls of wisdom emanating from Guru @PeanutsMolloy on here then I'd lump on a good number of them not being regular internet users or internet users at all so how are they supposed to renew / find out about the renewal process?
I would imagine details will be in the programme, on the big screen, on the TVs in the ground, posters in the bogs and on the walls behind the stands, on the red matrix sign above the ticket office, announced before and at half time by BDL and word of mouth from fellow fans. But apart from that Len, I'm stumped.
"Renewal forms will not be sent out to supporters unless specifically requested."
I was about to post this.
Season tickets are now on sale with application forms being available from the Valley Ticket Office. Alternatively fans can download an application form by clicking here and return it in the post or in person. Renewal forms will not be sent out to supporters unless specifically requested.
Not all season ticket holders will be aware of this as they do not use the internet, nor buy a programme.
The club will argue, reasonably, that it has four matches to create awareness before April 10th and that existing holders will be there. Just to mail ST holders is going to cost about £10k and you would usually target other supporters, so could easily spend £15-£20k. However, I think a minority of people will expect the club to have the courtesy to contact them in return for a purchase of several hundred pounds and the club may find it becomes the tipping point if those people are already doubtful about renewing. You can also never underestimate how hard it is to get to 100 per cent of purchasers - and certainly to would-be purchasers.
The club is in possession of season ticket holders' email addresses (for the vast majority?). Would it not actually be prudent to send out a pdf application form attached to an email? They send us all sorts of other guff electronically don't they?
'To ensure best value for money fans should submit their application forms before Friday, April 10th which is the deadline for the first phase of season-ticket prices.'
This suggests that the price might go up after 10th April. However, they haven't said it will which gives them the scope to make up their mind once they get to the 11th and see what the take up is.
The front page of the pdf says "Buy early for the best value. Prices will rise after April 10th" (my emphasis).
"Renewal forms will not be sent out to supporters unless specifically requested."
I was about to post this.
Season tickets are now on sale with application forms being available from the Valley Ticket Office. Alternatively fans can download an application form by clicking here and return it in the post or in person. Renewal forms will not be sent out to supporters unless specifically requested.
Not all season ticket holders will be aware of this as they do not use the internet, nor buy a programme.
The club will argue, reasonably, that it has four matches to create awareness before April 10th and that existing holders will be there. Just to mail ST holders is going to cost about £10k and you would usually target other supporters, so could easily spend £15-£20k. However, I think a minority of people will expect the club to have the courtesy to contact them in return for a purchase of several hundred pounds and the club may find it becomes the tipping point if those people are already doubtful about renewing. You can also never underestimate how hard it is to get to 100 per cent of purchasers - and certainly to would-be purchasers.
That is true, although not all season ticket holders may attend, nor may they take note of the big screen or advertisments around the ground. Most will be expecting a renewal pack to drop through their door in the next couple of weeks.
£20k equates to 66 season ticket holders (using an average of £300 a season ticket). So they could easily make that money back in a morning's worth of renewals. The club could find themselves losing more money by not sending out renewal forms and losing more potential fans not renewing next season.
Comments
As things are getting, dangerously, close to liable and slander I'm, now, choosing my words very carefully.
'There was a question about the Trust and she was very dismissive of them and said that they asked for a meeting and she asked them to meet with her development team and they said no. She gave the impression that, in her view, that meant that they didn't want to be involved with the club. she didn't say as much but she did seems completely horrified that they wouldn't get involved in helping the club. I have nothing further to add to this, and accept that I might have, completely, misread the situation.'
So it is about who meets with who.
I really can't believe this can be true. Katrien gave an interview to the Trust news, and she is savvy enough to realise the objectives of the trust. On the face of it, it looks like she is dismissive of the Trust as a whole because of an issue regarding a meeting, which wasn't an issue at all according to Pico.
Maybe the meeting with the development team happening/not happening is a smokescreen to justify not engaging with the Trust.
What is being discussed?
What initiatives have been suggested or analysed?
How is the relationship developing?
Are CAST being listened to?
Is this a foot in the door that could give CAST an opprtunity to prove its worth to KM and so blossom into a deeper, wider and more strategic relationship?
Did KM make the offer with the above in mind
or are CAST ideas, as Prague Addick has claimed, being rejected as the club staff feel that that they should have come up with the ideas that CAST have and feel that they are being undermined.
I think the Trust did the right thing calling for the meeting but I would have thought that the immediate outcome would have been a little reluctance by the club to speak to the Trust.
I have a feeling that there might be a development on this, in light of the 'frozen' promise that is not, realistically, what they said it is.
http://www.cafc.co.uk/news/article/pick-up-your-201516-season-ticket-now-2306831.aspx
No renewal brochure being sent in post.
Full details here.
http://www.cafc.co.uk/documents/st-brochure-20151683-2306797.pdf
I doubt if that's sensible. The mail-out is costly, but it's a major sales opportunity against income of about £2m.
In effect, existing season-ticket holders can't buy a £175 season ticket unless they were in A block last year. I can see why that makes sense to the club; I am not convinced 1) that it is enforceable, given people can apply in any name they like and the club will be none the wiser and 2) that it will be seen as fair by some existing season-ticket holders that new supporters get a better deal. It's what insurance firms often do, but I suspect many people don't regard Charlton in the same way as they do their insurance company.
"Fans can secure their place in SE7 in 2015/16 from just £175 adults" - this is a misleading, bordering on dishonest, statement given the above.
The documentation says nothing that clarifies the over 60s issue that I can see, even though the club is now saying it's only for new applicants as seniors. Expect some angry season-ticket holders about to or recently turned 60 and another U-turn shortly. Additional season ticket revenue from this will be zilch.
M&N block in the upper west have been shafted and the publicity on that is misleading. The U11s announcement was disingenuous, since the total cost is unchanged.
Valley Express pricing consistent with a £10 fare.
I can't see the programme vouchers amounting to much, especially as you still have to play hunt the seller.
I do think the technology investment is a good thing and to be welcomed, assuming it works, but it is not really a key element of the experience for supporters. Prices remain good value, notwithstanding all the above.
Season tickets are now on sale with application forms being available from the Valley Ticket Office. Alternatively fans can download an application form by clicking here and return it in the post or in person. Renewal forms will not be sent out to supporters unless specifically requested.
Not all season ticket holders will be aware of this as they do not use the internet, nor buy a programme.
Please note that block H in the lower tier of the West Stand will only be available to new season-ticket purchases, however tickets will not be on sale in this block until Block A in the East Stand is sold out.
That is, my guess, to stop people downgrading then. We'll see how well that works in practice.
Man walks up to ticket office window
"Two season tickets in block H please, great price for me and my kid"
"Sorry, you can't buy them but we've got a couple of singles in A block"
"No, i want two together in H Block as the name brings back vivid memories of time in Ulster"
"Er, sorry, can't sell them to you yet. Can you come back in a couple of months and if we've sold out A block you can have some"
"but I'm here now with my money"
"Sorry, by the way, did you have a season ticket last season?
"yes, but I'm short of cash since the divorce and wanted a cheaper option and to spend some time with my son"
"Oh, well you can't buy one anyway. How about a lounge pass"
"*&%$ *&%£ where the sun don't shine"
This suggests that the price might go up after 10th April. However, they haven't said it will which gives them the scope to make up their mind once they get to the 11th and see what the take up is.
If I bet any time other than on pearls of wisdom emanating from Guru @PeanutsMolloy on here then I'd lump on a good number of them not being regular internet users or internet users at all so how are they supposed to renew / find out about the renewal process?
However, there is a danger that fans might be confused to hear that new worm farms will be set up to support the useless, specially tested method of aerating the pitch with forks.
( Think I'll stick to the day job
Had she recalled that mail, she'd know that her words could simply be debunked, so I'm happy to believe she'd forgotten she'd been told that, or simply missed it in what I'm sure is a full postbag.
@Henry Irving To answer your question as far as I believe I'm free to, I've personally met a couple of times with various people involved in club development, and there's more in the diary now KM's given the green light to us working at this level. It's below the strategic level we feel supporters should be involved, the level you were once involved indeed. After all these guys have to work with the challenges that come with misaligned if well-intentioned business decisions - not easy to sell a season ticket to someone feeling disenfranchised, for example - but it's fair to say it's also a level above where the Fans' Forum is working to. For the avoidance of doubt, it is definitely not supplanting or undermining the FF and that's something I'm determined to avoid. It's been relatively informal to date to be fair, we've discussed some initiatives and some challenges - but it is early days.
I have to confess that I'm looking forward to getting the credit card ticket. It will make it much easier to ditch the 'man bag' when I don't have to worry about two of those booklets.
But apart from that Len, I'm stumped.
£20k equates to 66 season ticket holders (using an average of £300 a season ticket). So they could easily make that money back in a morning's worth of renewals. The club could find themselves losing more money by not sending out renewal forms and losing more potential fans not renewing next season.