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Question re: Luzon

newyorkaddicknewyorkaddick
in General Charlton
Many clubs that replace their manager have a short-term 'bounce' in form (which may not have anything to do with the new manager but anyhow).

We do not appear to have had the same effect in the case of Luzon which probably reflects just how poor we were in the final few games under Peeters ie. it would be unrealistic to expect any discernible improvement yet. He has however clearly made multiple changes to the team which hopefully reflects understandable initial experimentation rather than some preference for manic squad rotation.

However having not seen any of his four games, I'm curious to know from those that have whether there is nonetheless any discernible change in playing style which would at least suggest he has made some impact on the training ground? For example are we trying to pass it more or maybe being more direct? Are we perhaps pressing the opposition more energetically than we did under Peeters?

Or most worryingly, is there no discernible change whatsoever?
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Comments

  • MrLargoMrLargo
    I would say that under Peeters towards the end we looked demoralised and devoid of any creativity. The game plan seemed to be to put all the focus on just trying to get a clean sheet and just pray that divine intervention would provide us with a goal of our own.

    Under Luzon, the players look low on confidence and lacking in direction. Credit where it's due, they came out fired up last night, and for the first 10 minutes we harrassed their defence repeatedly (Igor in particular), unfortunately to little effect. We've lost all of the defensive resilience that saw us through the first half of the season but look ever so slightly more likely to get a goal. Don't be deceived by the close scoreline last night, Norwich cut through us time after time, our marking was atrocious, we could easily have been thrashed last night.
  • seth plumseth plum
    We play 442, run around in a masquerade of effectiveness, and play continual long balls forward and run around some more. He has clearly tried to work on corners, probably some imagined hare brained idea that players have had to repeat over and over in training, and the corners are still utterly ineffective.
  • CafcWestCafcWest
    newyorkaddick said:

    Many clubs that replace their manager have a short-term 'bounce' in form (which may not have anything to do with the new manager but anyhow).

    The 'bounce' relies on the players feeling that the new manager will strengthen the morale, boost their confidence and give new opportunities. That they feel the new man has fresh ideas, creativity and that they can believe in him - he's "done it before" or he inspires confidence. If none of that comes with the 'new face' then no bounce...probably just an increased sinking feeling.
  • swords_aliveswords_alive
    i think also it's patently obvious that Buyens, and possibly Ben Haim still bear grudges from their time at Liege. Buyens plays like he wouldn't mind getting sent off so he can escape short term at least.
  • souladdicksouladdick
    First half was woeful, second not much better. Only positive from the game is that Vetokele and Watt finally played together and both scored. If these two can combine to get a few goals we may yet turn the corner stay up.
  • seriously_redseriously_red
    Most clubs who replace their coach or manager due to underperformance tend to strengthen their squads.
    We swapped Watt for Tucudean and brought in Lepoint and a new reserve keeper.
    For whatever reason Watt never starts a game.
    Ben Haim distribution was appalling last night. Their first two goals of their goals came from giving the ball away in our own half.

    I've seen Watford, Rotherham and last night - too many soft goals conceded but can't nail the reason for that.
  • OaksterOakster
    Pedro45 said:

    There has been a change, but unfortunately not for the better. Despite the Peters tenure ending in a lack of wins, we did still try to play the same tactics each game; pass it around and build slowly from the back, while being dangerous on the counter attack.

    Now we have no discernable style at all!

    Yes, we have tried some new corner routines (which consist of the odd dummy run) but none of them have even close to come off. They look like old and stale routines to me! As for throw in, nobody has a clue!

    The main tactic though is that he is trying to get the defence to play the ball forward earlier than Peters did, but this is stupid, because we have nobody up front to hang on to it and they are usually marked by two or three defenders. He has insisted (so far) of playing one forward, and a wide attacker (Harriot or Bulot, or Church at Boro). What Igor desperately needs is someone alongside him - he was at his best when Tucadean played in August and last night when Watt joined him (at last!).

    We still have problems with the midfield not supporting the forwards and also not protecting the defence when attacks break down quickly, but that is more personnel than tactics, and can be blamed firmly on Roland.

    I've seen Charlton relegated six times, but cannot remember the team playing with such poor preparation. We are now playing each week as we did at our worst in the Parky relegation season, and the Nelson/Bailey bad days.

    The coach has no idea of the oppo, and did nothing to stop Hoolahan when he came on last night; hence the winning goal came through him. I doubt he has heard of Wes, though almost every Charlton fan knows all about how good he can be...so sad, and annoying!

    Undoubtedly Luzon is absolutely clueless regarding the Championship and English football in general - however he will have people like Mathews there to advise him. You would hope he listens and briefs the team accordingly - back in the days when there was a gym at The Valley and you used the home changing rooms to get ready - there would often be the tactics on a white board still up from the previous game. These were always interesting to look at and would always details who was supposed to mark who at set pieces etc
  • newyorkaddicknewyorkaddick
    cafc-west said:

    newyorkaddick said:

    Many clubs that replace their manager have a short-term 'bounce' in form (which may not have anything to do with the new manager but anyhow).

    The 'bounce' relies on the players feeling that the new manager will strengthen the morale, boost their confidence and give new opportunities. That they feel the new man has fresh ideas, creativity and that they can believe in him - he's "done it before" or he inspires confidence. If none of that comes with the 'new face' then no bounce...probably just an increased sinking feeling.
    My sense is that often the 'bounce' is simply explained by mean reversion ie. a Board overreacts to short-term form and then explains the inevitable subseqent bounce on their brilliant managerial decision (when the bounce would likely have occurred anyhow!).
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  • ross1ross1
    We got a draw in both his first two official games didn't we? that is better than the last two
  • AddickFC81AddickFC81
    By and large we responded well in the second half.
  • UboatUboat
    Is the bounce actually a real thing? I seem to remember reading an analysis by Simon Kuper or Daniel Finkelstein or someone like that showing that it was a myth.
  • soapboxsamsoapboxsam
    Uboat said:

    Is the bounce actually a real thing? I seem to remember reading an analysis by Simon Kuper or Daniel Finkelstein or someone like that showing that it was a myth.

    Off the top of my head, did we not win most of CP first 4 games before going on a losing run of 5, plus we won our 1st 3 home matches under Bob.

    You may be right thou U boat because just like betting, people only show their betting slips when they've won or nearly won.

    If all punters showed their losing betting slip on line the system would crash.
  • Mendonca In AsdasMendonca In Asdas
    edited February 2015
    Who is the equivalent of Karel Freye at charlton, as does Guy have an assistant at the moment as Riga did?
  • MartinCAFCMartinCAFC
    In addition to what everybody else has said, what's changed is that Solly has clearly been instructed to be Luzon's long ball distributor. All it needed was Kermo up front last night and you could have been mistaken for thinking it was last season all over again.
  • mogodonmogodon
    MrLargo said:

    I would say that under Peeters towards the end we looked demoralised and devoid of any creativity. The game plan seemed to be to put all the focus on just trying to get a clean sheet and just pray that divine intervention would provide us with a goal of our own.

    Under Luzon, the players look low on confidence and lacking in direction. Credit where it's due, they came out fired up last night, and for the first 10 minutes we harrassed their defence repeatedly (Igor in particular), unfortunately to little effect. We've lost all of the defensive resilience that saw us through the first half of the season but look ever so slightly more likely to get a goal. Don't be deceived by the close scoreline last night, Norwich cut through us time after time, our marking was atrocious, we could easily have been thrashed last night.

    Agree, nobody could fault our chasing players down in the first 15 minutes but that was as good as it got. Norwich at times played with us as we huffed and puffed after them. Defensively we were poor, and even before their winner we gave Johnson a free header from eight yards out ...
  • vffvff
    swords_alive said:

    i think also it's patently obvious that Buyens, and possibly Ben Haim still bear grudges from their time at Liege. Buyens plays like he wouldn't mind getting sent off so he can escape short term at least.

    He got himself sent off in the Blackburn game as well. Clearly does not want to be at the club and play under Luzon.
  • LawrieAbrahamsLawrieAbrahams
    First half we pumped it long to Vetokele, who is not very tall, and he was on his own. There was no organisation and it was easy for Norwich to pass through us. I recall one attack where there were four unmarked Norwich players on the East side of the box. If their finishing had been better it could have been four or five at half time. The second half wasn't much better but we somehow conjured a goal out of the blue and that lifted the confidence and then we scored again. I didn't think it was a rousing second half rally after a half time team talk, Watt came on for the ineffectual Bulot and that gave us a bit more threat. My other concern is that Luzon is making too many changes in a frantic search to find a team that works. Watt and Church started on Saturday but last night it was Igor on his own and Church wasn't even on the bench. At least under Peeters we tried to pass the ball and keep possession. I read on here that Luzon likes to play it long but we don't have the right sort of players to play that way. Also under Peeters we defended well but since Luzon took over we have conceded far too many, even if you exclude Watford.
  • Fanny FanackapanFanny Fanackapan
    seriously_red said:

    Most clubs who replace their coach or manager due to underperformance tend to strengthen their squads.
    We swapped Watt for Tucudean and brought in Lepoint and a new reserve keeper.
    For whatever reason Watt never starts a game.
    Ben Haim distribution was appalling last night. Their first two goals of their goals came from giving the ball away in our own half.

    I've seen Watford, Rotherham and last night - too many soft goals conceded but can't nail the reason for that.

    Tony Watt's dad was at Boro' last Saturday & someone asked if his lad was fit enough to play 90 mins.

    His reply was to the effect that Tony IS fit but GL won't "play him" .....presumably indicating that there are some "afters" from their time together at SL.

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  • UboatUboat
    Well that's just great.
  • soapboxsamsoapboxsam
    After Tony goal last night, he will play Saturday along side Igor.
    Luzon can't be that much of a plum not to realise his shocking mistake last night.

    If i was Damien Matthew i would of insisted, but maybe Damien still got a mortgage he's paying off and wants to keep his job.
  • charltonbobcharltonbob
    Maybe it's not helping by English not being his first language but Luzon can hardly be motivating anybody can he?

    Incidently after the fall out of the players with Peeters has anybody heard what the players think of our latest head coach ?
  • soapboxsamsoapboxsam
    You don't think Tal ben is telling the players the complete opposite of what Guy is telling him Because he feels that Luzon is a tuches Lecker. (i'm sure you can work it without google)
  • _nam11_nam11
    Regardless of tactics, if the morale in a squad is as sours as ours is. You have no hope.
  • SimonsenSimonsen
    Uboat said:

    Is the bounce actually a real thing? I seem to remember reading an analysis by Simon Kuper or Daniel Finkelstein or someone like that showing that it was a myth.

    In their first seasons....
    Lawrence...bit of bounce.
    Gritt/Curbishley....bounce
    Dowie....no bounce.
    Reed.....no bounce.
    Pardew.....bit of bounce then slide.
    Parkinson....no bounce.
    Powell....bounce then slide.
    Riga....bit of bounce.
    Peeters....bit of bounce and then big slide.
    Luzon.....no bounce.

    Probably a bit of a myth.
  • Covered EndCovered End
    edited February 2015
    Fanny Fanackapan said:



    seriously_red said:

    Most clubs who replace their coach or manager due to underperformance tend to strengthen their squads.
    We swapped Watt for Tucudean and brought in Lepoint and a new reserve keeper.
    For whatever reason Watt never starts a game.
    Ben Haim distribution was appalling last night. Their first two goals of their goals came from giving the ball away in our own half.

    I've seen Watford, Rotherham and last night - too many soft goals conceded but can't nail the reason for that.

    Tony Watt's dad was at Boro' last Saturday & someone asked if his lad was fit enough to play 90 mins.

    His reply was to the effect that Tony IS fit but GL won't "play him" .....presumably indicating that there are some "afters" from their time together at SL.

    TBf I think I'm correct in saying that Watt hasn't played a full 90 mins for years.

    I don't think he did at Liege or Celtic.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Watt
  • MartinCAFCMartinCAFC
    Simonsen said:

    Uboat said:

    Is the bounce actually a real thing? I seem to remember reading an analysis by Simon Kuper or Daniel Finkelstein or someone like that showing that it was a myth.

    In their first seasons....
    Lawrence...bit of bounce.
    Gritt/Curbishley....bounce
    Dowie....no bounce.
    Reed.....no bounce.
    Pardew.....bit of bounce then slide.
    Parkinson....no bounce.
    Powell....bounce then slide.
    Riga....bit of bounce.
    Peeters....bit of bounce and then big slide.
    Luzon.....no bounce.

    Probably a bit of a myth.
    Dowie....no bounce. Sacked after 3 months
    Reed.....no bounce. Sacked after 8 games?
    Parkinson....no bounce. RM couldn't afford anybody else
    Luzon......no bounce. Here for 25+ years like Alex Ferguson? Or will RD realise he's another of the above having sacked him once already too...?
  • HandGHandG
    charltonbob said:

    Maybe it's not helping by English not being his first language but Luzon can hardly be motivating anybody can he?

    Incidently after the fall out of the players with Peeters has anybody heard what the players think of our latest head coach ?

    I've heard third hand that he's made a pretty bad impression with the players-very shouty and odd training methods and players have walked out. Only hearsay but it rings pretty true looking at the performances in the last few games.....
  • ValleyMickValleyMick
    HandG said:

    charltonbob said:

    Maybe it's not helping by English not being his first language but Luzon can hardly be motivating anybody can he?

    Incidently after the fall out of the players with Peeters has anybody heard what the players think of our latest head coach ?

    I've heard third hand that he's made a pretty bad impression with the players-very shouty and odd training methods and players have walked out. Only hearsay but it rings pretty true looking at the performances in the last few games.....
    On a separate thread Airman has pretty much said this too. I'm a ST holder in Upper West and watch the coach/ player interaction closely. Luzon was pretty much ignored by the players against Rotherham and it doesn't seem to have got better.

    It's clear that Luzon hasn't really lost the dressing room and crowd, he never had it in the first place. Second rate appointment by a clueless owner. How can transfer value be created when the players are so unhappy. Relegation is inevitable now.
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