If Katrien is not prepared to sit down & talk the issue through with AB, I wonder whether she might be persuaded to take some of her valuable time ( no sarcasm intended) to study a "business plan" that he provides ? ie making a case for the continuation/expansion of VEX with facts & figures & the benefit of having been there, done that & wearing the T shirt.
Another option might be to put VEX on the agenda of the next FF meeting, scheduled for 2nd April with a request for AB to be present to present said case /answer questions put by both KM and FF members on behalf of interested supporters.
This could be the way to expanding the Club/fans' dialogue within an existing structure whilst utilising the undoubted expertise of supporters which would otherwise be missed.
It's always my preference to set out the business case in a document and then have others challenge it. Collaborative processes add value, in my experience. I've offered this to Katrien, most recently in September. She was very clear that she did not want a document. You were at the FF meeting, but I believe she reiterated her position as that the club woud rather lose the ticket revenue than subsidise coaches.
Since she isn't stupid, I would suggest there are two underlying reasons she is not open to the rationale: 1) she does not understand why we target areas up to 60 miles from the ground and 2) the owner decides, so the business case is irrelevant to her. There was some evidence for both in what she said to me.
You'll appreciate fans need to know about the future of VEX before buying season tickets, but what you are really proposing is what the Target 10k/40k groups did. I am happy to assist in any way I can and Katrien knows that. Her standard response to anyone with expertise and experience to offer is that she must listen to everyone, which sounds wonderful but is not really the best way to add value to the business.
It isn't difficult to grasp that in her position one option is to seek to co-opt your critics, especially if they know things you don't.
When I occasionally go on the away coaches, there's usually a football scratch card, which is always full before it reaches the back of the coach.
Many people like a little gamble, with a chance to win.
If you did one on the way and one on the way back, surely you could raise £50 plus.
If they were sold, emphasiing the need, I'm confident they would sell well.
I don't know how many coaches we operate, but if there's 10 coaches x £50 = £500 per match.
£500 x 23 = £11,500. Simple & easy.
Failing that, park up at Gillingham FC, between 12.30 & 13.00 and see if you catch some strays.
No prize money? I agree you couid chip away with this but you'd get some displacement from existing jackpot sales. Really the club needs to embrace the business case for VEX and run with it, improving the service for current users in the process, rather than scratch around at the margins.
never fail to understand the screwed up way football operates.
Away from the football side, screw the margin as tightly as possible. Look to end a loss that may run to a few thousand a year but essentially helps bring hundreds of people through the turnstiles every game and act as an advertisement and attraction to the club outside of its catchment area.
Haggling over a few grand, when unsuitable players get dumped upon us (and on our wage) that may be costing the club 200k+ a year, for example.
Always interesting when football clubs, which are probably the worst run business in the country with too often only a passing nod at common sense, start worrying about a few thousand here and there when, as you say, still paying underperforming and too often mediocre players the same in a week as all the coaches lose in a season ...
Is that not the case in most businesses, where management keep their six figure salaries, the big company cars and lunch on expenses. But the guy working four hours a day twice a week has to go to save the company a few quid?
Agree with that, but most businesses make money but shed staff so they can make even more. Football clubs seem to exist to burn cash and lose huge amounts. Cutting a coach or two to save jobs just seems short-sighted and bizarre given that
Surely put the prices up so it breaks even and don't run half filled coaches If you you put it up to £10 that's still half the price of the train from kent
It's not as simple as that. Each route is different and so is each game. On some coaches there will be no breakeven point because as the price increases the number of passengers will go down, requiring a further increase and driving away more people.
The club's concern is entirely financial. It's been telling people all season that Valley Express lost £19k in 2013/14. But if it's concern is financial it's no good saving that £19k on coaches but losing £50k in ticket sales because fewer people attend.
The missing piece of the jigsaw is that Valley Express has always been about increasing ticket revenue, by enabling people who would not otherwise come, to attend. It is not a charity operation by the club or a favour to supporters who use it and it has always paid its way. Unfortunately the club no longer understands that.
This! You would think that with catering and the club shop outsourced the remaining operations would be a lot simpler to manage and understand! I think there is a third possibility as to why KM and others do not wish to take advice from fans, be they ex staffers or not. It is complex and one could write in depth but essentially the management might not wish to become beholden to a fans body for a number of reasons, even when it leads to making mistakes which are both embarrassing and costly. When particular fans continually state they have no confidence in the management team, is it surprising that those managers are somewhat reluctant to engage?!
@Fanny Fanackapan will be familiar with the season ticket consultation and this was another area where more discussion would have avoided mistakes. There was a plan mapped out for discussion and publicity around the launch. However the Trust were unable to participate because the club insisted on proposing to forcibly move 500 fans at the front of the North Upper. This decision was only reversed on the morning of the launch after heavy lobbying.
Opening changes up to criticism does not make one weak and the fact that there is no meaningful engagement with the supporters Trust indicates that there is a fear of loss of control. In fact the only clear area of fan participation is the museum. No coincidence that the museum is completely irrelevant to the day to day running of the club.
Coincidentally I've just had a linked in invite from the chair of Ipswich Town supporters club as she works in my industry. Transpires she is a non executive director of the club!
There are many different forms of customer and fan participation. And perhaps the various fans involved in this should just sit down and agree how to tale this forwards. For at the moment the landscape is overly complex which allows the club to pick and choose and also leads to petty jealousies and squabbling which erupts on here from time to time.
As regards Valley Express, it's a no brainer! Far more important is to look at how to fill some of the empty seats while we remain in this division.
If Katrien is not prepared to sit down & talk the issue through with AB, I wonder whether she might be persuaded to take some of her valuable time ( no sarcasm intended) to study a "business plan" that he provides ? ie making a case for the continuation/expansion of VEX with facts & figures & the benefit of having been there, done that & wearing the T shirt.
Another option might be to put VEX on the agenda of the next FF meeting, scheduled for 2nd April with a request for AB to be present to present said case /answer questions put by both KM and FF members on behalf of interested supporters.
This could be the way to expanding the Club/fans' dialogue within an existing structure whilst utilising the undoubted expertise of supporters which would otherwise be missed.
Great post. I would love to see this happen, although a dialogue is better than a series of emails. Who sets the FF agenda?
Is there anyone who has a good working relationship from the fans side? I understand that AB is the font of knowledge on this subject but I can imagine that the club see him with suspicion and that is not trying to have a dig at him.
Also, what about Murray, is there any likelihood that he can be involved - honest broker - after all VEX is a product of his stewardship? If he does not want to get involved, if he is not interested then what is the point of him?
I feel that if they don't keep Valley Express they will find even less season tickets will be renewed. Those who depend on this service to get there and home again will not fork out while there is any doubt about its future. So saving a few grand could cost them a hell of a lot more. Their choice as Katrien is keen to remind us!
I feel that if they don't keep Valley Express they will find even less season tickets will be renewed. Those who depend on this service to get there and home again will not fork out while there is any doubt about its future. So saving a few grand could cost them a hell of a lot more. Their choice as Katrien is keen to remind us!
But not everyone who travels in on Valley express is a season ticket holder and this is an issue with the club. The club are looking into finding ways to fund the shortfall, i can only assume that the over riding factor in this issue is that the club will not subsidise coach travel after this season. I might be wrong but i guess we will have to wait and see.
Simple answer is a joint matchday ticket with Valley Express included (at a different price to normal tickets). Subsidy gone, problem solved... Now getting back to replacing Kermorgant!
I feel that if they don't keep Valley Express they will find even less season tickets will be renewed. Those who depend on this service to get there and home again will not fork out while there is any doubt about its future. So saving a few grand could cost them a hell of a lot more. Their choice as Katrien is keen to remind us!
But not everyone who travels in on Valley express is a season ticket holder and this is an issue with the club. The club are looking into finding ways to fund the shortfall, i can only assume that the over riding factor in this issue is that the club will not subsidise coach travel after this season. I might be wrong but i guess we will have to wait and see.
No, but they already get more revenue from people who are not, because match tickets are dearer than season tickets per match (or should be). If you want to run a successful business you have to take on a degree of risk and manage it, which is what empty seats represent. They are looking to eliminate that risk by taking a larger, guaranteed reduction in overall revenue. That's insane!
since retiring I use the VEX from whitstable and the coach is usually pretty full. I meet my granson who lives in bromley at the valley. For me to drive to the valley park and walk long distances would make it difficult for me to attend . there is no easy direct transport routes.This would me mean giving up my season tiket and my grandson would also give up his. Meaning loss to the club at every match of 2 tickets 2 programmes 2 pies and 4 drinks plus the the odd purchase in club shop .
I am sure I am not the only one who would be effected in this way
since retiring I use the VEX from whitstable and the coach is usually pretty full. I meet my granson who lives in bromley at the valley. For me to drive to the valley park and walk long distances would make it difficult for me to attend . there is no easy direct transport routes.This would me mean giving up my season tiket and my grandson would also give up his. Meaning loss to the club at every match of 2 tickets 2 programmes 2 pies and 4 drinks plus the the odd purchase in club shop .
I am sure I am not the only one who would be effected in this way
Your example should be put in front of Meire and Duchatelet, then perhaps they could see the error of their ways.
since retiring I use the VEX from whitstable and the coach is usually pretty full. I meet my granson who lives in bromley at the valley. For me to drive to the valley park and walk long distances would make it difficult for me to attend . there is no easy direct transport routes.This would me mean giving up my season tiket and my grandson would also give up his. Meaning loss to the club at every match of 2 tickets 2 programmes 2 pies and 4 drinks plus the the odd purchase in club shop .
I am sure I am not the only one who would be effected in this way
Your example should be put in front of Meire and Duchatelet, then perhaps they could see the error of their ways.
In fact I would ask others to relate their own situation as @DPFC has done, and we can add these "qualitative" comments to the results of the surveys. Good research practice, which answers what we might call the "PL54 objection".
Similar to DPFC from Whitstable. I live in Herne Bay and would not want to drive up, Valley Express is vital for me to carry on with my season ticket. Sure most others from the Herne Bay - Whitstable area feel the same!
If the club can not afford to meet the loss on VEX, how come the were able to renew to seats in the covered end, the money would have been better spent on bringing fans to the Valley, seems RD/KM want the seats to look nice and new on the TV as they are empty, if fans were sitting on them the faded colour would not notice.
I've not read the whole thread but has the cost of a return trip been raised yet ? I recently had to use the VE service having just had an eye operation and not being able to drive to the Valley as per usual. I live in Swanley and although the pick up & set down points, as well as the times could not be argued about , the costs certainly could. We joined the Worthing coach (at Swanley) and It cost me & my son £8.50 each, the same as it did for those getting on at the start in Worthing. Surely there should be staggered costs, maybe at 20 or 25 mile intervals as it didn't seem fair paying the same as those travelling 3 times the distance,
Similar to DPFC from Whitstable. I live in Herne Bay and would not want to drive up, Valley Express is vital for me to carry on with my season ticket. Sure most others from the Herne Bay - Whitstable area feel the same!
so you are only going to the Valley if Charlton give you cheap travel,think that is well sad
If Katrien is not prepared to sit down & talk the issue through with AB, I wonder whether she might be persuaded to take some of her valuable time ( no sarcasm intended) to study a "business plan" that he provides ? ie making a case for the continuation/expansion of VEX with facts & figures & the benefit of having been there, done that & wearing the T shirt.
Another option might be to put VEX on the agenda of the next FF meeting, scheduled for 2nd April with a request for AB to be present to present said case /answer questions put by both KM and FF members on behalf of interested supporters.
This could be the way to expanding the Club/fans' dialogue within an existing structure whilst utilising the undoubted expertise of supporters which would otherwise be missed.
Great post. I would love to see this happen, although a dialogue is better than a series of emails. Who sets the FF agenda?
FF members are asked for agenda items a week or 2 prior to meetings.
There was an email address on the FF link on the OS which fans could use for comments etc and would be ideal for requests re the next agenda BUT John Commerford who set this up & monitored reponses has given up his place due to ill health with another member of his SG taking his place. I was told that John had closed this address so I contacted the Comms team to ask for it to be deleted from the FF link accordingly.
I'd be happy to email the other members to see if anyone would volunteer to take over this role /set up a new address to be advertised on said link - something I feel should be taken on by a member who has no other responsibilities, unlike myself and Ian (POTY/Museum) and razil ( CASTRUST)
Just wondering whether any Lifers had used said link when it was live ?
I get the coach from Faversham and my grandad gets it from Orpington. If they were to stupidly get rid of the service, it would be very likely that we wouldn't be able to go anymore.
My grandad especially wouldn't be able to manage the walk to the ground so wouldn't renew. Like others this would also have a knock on effect for refreshments, programmes and other bits.
I'd imagine there are hundreds of others like this.
I've not read the whole thread but has the cost of a return trip been raised yet ? I recently had to use the VE service having just had an eye operation and not being able to drive to the Valley as per usual. I live in Swanley and although the pick up & set down points, as well as the times could not be argued about , the costs certainly could. We joined the Worthing coach (at Swanley) and It cost me & my son £8.50 each, the same as it did for those getting on at the start in Worthing. Surely there should be staggered costs, maybe at 20 or 25 mile intervals as it didn't seem fair paying the same as those travelling 3 times the distance,
There are very few local users of Valley Express, Swanley being probably the most popular local pick-up. If you have differential fares then it may be in the club's interests to exclude local users altogether because potentially you are denying a seat to someone who would pay more to travel from further out without any cost saving, while the coach still travels the same route, is out of the depot just as long and the driver still works the same hours. Equally, if the club is to fill otherwise empty seats locally at a lower fare it has to know how many there are in advance to take the booking.
A local coach would never pay its way, since even if it was full the hire cost would still be likely to be £7/£8 per head. So £8.50 reflects that fairly, but is unlikely to be seen as reasonable (as you say). Our limited experiment in Bromley at £5 during the PL days suggested no demand at all, so I doubt there is a case to be made based on ticket revenue either.
Similar to DPFC from Whitstable. I live in Herne Bay and would not want to drive up, Valley Express is vital for me to carry on with my season ticket. Sure most others from the Herne Bay - Whitstable area feel the same!
so you are only going to the Valley if Charlton give you cheap travel,think that is well sad
I assume your happy to take advantage of Charltons cheap season tickets or match day tickets?
Similar to DPFC from Whitstable. I live in Herne Bay and would not want to drive up, Valley Express is vital for me to carry on with my season ticket. Sure most others from the Herne Bay - Whitstable area feel the same!
so you are only going to the Valley if Charlton give you cheap travel,think that is well sad
I have not said i will only go to the valley if they offer cheap travel. in my case if they stop the VEX no other option is seriously possible
I probably don't get it and will be educated, but if a coach only picks up 15 fans on average and in total they have paid say £4k in season tickets and a coach probably costs £8k for the season, isn't it as if the club were giving away 15 season tickets? What are they losing by giving up £4k in revenue and £8k in expenditure, isn't it a net saving of £4k. If you had a rotating number of different fans making up 15 every week it closes the gap, but I doubt if this actually happens.
So is it right to be hard on the club if these loss making coaches are cancelled? I used to use the Hants/Surrey one which has been dropped so not happy at all, but I rather thought I understood why it was happening and thought it wrong if I was being subsidised.
Nobody would argue that a coach averaging 15 people should be subsidised. However, a coach with 35 people on it will yield 35 x 23 x £8.50 in fares, give or take the discount for season pass holders. That's £6842.50 over the season. If the coach hire is £450 per match that's £10,350 - a shortfall of £3,500 in round numbers.
Divided by 805 journeys, that's £4.35 subsidy per passenger (and this is a worst case scenario based on what I believe is the weakest route). If the average yield per spectator at the stadium is £15 then you'd only need 10 out of 35 people to be dependent on that coach running to attend to make it viable to operate. And most routes operating now will have much better numbers than that and always have had.
Reluctantly, if the club are not willing to subsidise the shortfall, then the price should be increased to £12.50/£13.
Hopefully, the fans that use this service, which they find invaluable, will have to understand and take it on the chin.
Possibly, some of those fans, that cannot afford an extra £4.50/£5, can reduce their costs elsewhere by not purchasing programmes, food, club shop items or get a cheaper S/T.
Overall the club could be worse off, but if the club are not willing to look at the overall impact, then so be it.
Anyway, the club will have no way of knowing about additional purchases, apart from S/T's.
Not ideal, but if there are no other options given......
What the club MUST NOT DO, IS WITHDRAW THE SERVICE WITHOUT EXPLORING ALTERNATIVES.
I probably don't get it and will be educated, but if a coach only picks up 15 fans on average and in total they have paid say £4k in season tickets and a coach probably costs £8k for the season, isn't it as if the club were giving away 15 season tickets? What are they losing by giving up £4k in revenue and £8k in expenditure, isn't it a net saving of £4k. If you had a rotating number of different fans making up 15 every week it closes the gap, but I doubt if this actually happens.
So is it right to be hard on the club if these loss making coaches are cancelled? I used to use the Hants/Surrey one which has been dropped so not happy at all, but I rather thought I understood why it was happening and thought it wrong if I was being subsidised.
Nobody would argue that a coach averaging 15 people should be subsidised. However, a coach with 35 people on it will yield 35 x 23 x £8.50 in fares, give or take the discount for season pass holders. That's £6842.50 over the season. If the coach hire is £450 per match that's £10,350 - a shortfall of £3,500 in round numbers.
Divided by 805 journeys, that's £4.35 subsidy per passenger (and this is a worst case scenario based on what I believe is the weakest route). If the average yield per spectator at the stadium is £15 then you'd only need 10 out of 35 people to be dependent on that coach running to attend to make it viable to operate. And most routes operating now will have much better numbers than that and always have had.
Reluctantly, if the club are not willing to subsidise the shortfall, then the price should be increased to £12.50/£13.
Hopefully, the fans that use this service, which they find invaluable, will have to understand and take it on the chin.
Possibly, some of those fans, that cannot afford an extra £4.50/£5, can reduce their costs elsewhere by not purchasing programmes, food, club shop items or get a cheaper S/T.
Overall the club could be worse off, but if the club are not willing to look at the overall impact, then so be it.
Anyway, the club will have no way of knowing about additional purchases, apart from S/T's.
Not ideal, but if there is no other options given.
It won't work, because what that does is price in car-sharing for those that are able to arrange it and willing to do it. The price increase from £7 to £8.50 last season damaged numbers and a bump of the scale you suggest would destroy all but the busiest routes and be entirely counter-productive.
I totally understand the view from people who don't use the coach service that others should be prepared to pay much more, but it's not the point. Some would, some wouldn't. What matters is the overall financial impact on the club.
When we introduced the coach service we changed the financial and time equation for many people, particularly those living on the coast, by making attending more viable than it had been before. That's why it works and has continued to work even during the League One years.
The club cannot assume if it changes that equation back those people will still put the time and effort in to attend. More to the point, it would kill stone dead the value for money appeal to a much wider community that at one point had an average of 40 coaches per match (2,000 people) travelling to The Valley, making a six-figure positive annual contribution to the club's finances.
If people want to build the club up, as opposed to wind it down, that's mad.
How many coaches per match, run now, on average & how many fans, per match, are on those coaches on average ?
Probably nine or ten now. The club claimed an average of 500 people last year, but I'd guess it's probably down to nearer 400, especially taking into account midweek games. That's a bit fewer than we had in League One, but this season they have throttled Maidstone in particular.
only even used Valley Express once, which was Brighton this season, because of parking my football driver(brother) decided Valley Express would be the be easier
no issues with it, was a good service, picked us up from The Valley and was not to expensive either
Comments
Since she isn't stupid, I would suggest there are two underlying reasons she is not open to the rationale: 1) she does not understand why we target areas up to 60 miles from the ground and 2) the owner decides, so the business case is irrelevant to her. There was some evidence for both in what she said to me.
You'll appreciate fans need to know about the future of VEX before buying season tickets, but what you are really proposing is what the Target 10k/40k groups did. I am happy to assist in any way I can and Katrien knows that. Her standard response to anyone with expertise and experience to offer is that she must listen to everyone, which sounds wonderful but is not really the best way to add value to the business.
It isn't difficult to grasp that in her position one option is to seek to co-opt your critics, especially if they know things you don't.
You would think that with catering and the club shop outsourced the remaining operations would be a lot simpler to manage and understand!
I think there is a third possibility as to why KM and others do not wish to take advice from fans, be they ex staffers or not. It is complex and one could write in depth but essentially the management might not wish to become beholden to a fans body for a number of reasons, even when it leads to making mistakes which are both embarrassing and costly.
When particular fans continually state they have no confidence in the management team, is it surprising that those managers are somewhat reluctant to engage?!
@Fanny Fanackapan will be familiar with the season ticket consultation and this was another area where more discussion would have avoided mistakes. There was a plan mapped out for discussion and publicity around the launch. However the Trust were unable to participate because the club insisted on proposing to forcibly move 500 fans at the front of the North Upper. This decision was only reversed on the morning of the launch after heavy lobbying.
Opening changes up to criticism does not make one weak and the fact that there is no meaningful engagement with the supporters Trust indicates that there is a fear of loss of control. In fact the only clear area of fan participation is the museum. No coincidence that the museum is completely irrelevant to the day to day running of the club.
Coincidentally I've just had a linked in invite from the chair of Ipswich Town supporters club as she works in my industry. Transpires she is a non executive director of the club!
There are many different forms of customer and fan participation. And perhaps the various fans involved in this should just sit down and agree how to tale this forwards. For at the moment the landscape is overly complex which allows the club to pick and choose and also leads to petty jealousies and squabbling which erupts on here from time to time.
As regards Valley Express, it's a no brainer! Far more important is to look at how to fill some of the empty seats while we remain in this division.
Also, what about Murray, is there any likelihood that he can be involved - honest broker - after all VEX is a product of his stewardship? If he does not want to get involved, if he is not interested then what is the point of him?
I am sure I am not the only one who would be effected in this way
Valley Express is vital for me to carry on with my season ticket.
Sure most others from the Herne Bay - Whitstable area feel the same!
There was an email address on the FF link on the OS which fans could use for comments etc and would be ideal for requests re the next agenda BUT John Commerford who set this up & monitored reponses has given up his place due to ill health with another member of his SG taking his place. I was told that John had closed this address so I contacted the Comms team to ask for it to be deleted from the FF link accordingly.
I'd be happy to email the other members to see if anyone would volunteer to take over this role /set up a new address to be advertised on said link - something I feel should be taken on by a member who has no other responsibilities, unlike myself and Ian (POTY/Museum) and razil ( CASTRUST)
Just wondering whether any Lifers had used said link when it was live ?
My grandad especially wouldn't be able to manage the walk to the ground so wouldn't renew. Like others this would also have a knock on effect for refreshments, programmes and other bits.
I'd imagine there are hundreds of others like this.
Surely the club can't be that short sighted?
A local coach would never pay its way, since even if it was full the hire cost would still be likely to be £7/£8 per head. So £8.50 reflects that fairly, but is unlikely to be seen as reasonable (as you say). Our limited experiment in Bromley at £5 during the PL days suggested no demand at all, so I doubt there is a case to be made based on ticket revenue either.
As previously though if anyone wants something mentioned CAS trust are more than happy to get it on the agenda, please email secretary@castrust.org
doronron Member
5:44PM
Jensenwasclass said:
Similar to DPFC from Whitstable. I live in Herne Bay and would not want to drive up,
Valley Express is vital for me to carry on with my season ticket.
Sure most others from the Herne Bay - Whitstable area feel the same!
so you are only going to the Valley if Charlton give you cheap travel,think that is well sad
I have not said i will only go to the valley if they offer cheap travel.
in my case if they stop the VEX no other option is seriously possible
Hopefully, the fans that use this service, which they find invaluable, will have to understand and take it on the chin.
Possibly, some of those fans, that cannot afford an extra £4.50/£5, can reduce their costs elsewhere by not purchasing programmes, food, club shop items or get a cheaper S/T.
Overall the club could be worse off, but if the club are not willing to look at the overall impact, then so be it.
Anyway, the club will have no way of knowing about additional purchases, apart from S/T's.
Not ideal, but if there are no other options given......
What the club MUST NOT DO, IS WITHDRAW THE SERVICE WITHOUT EXPLORING ALTERNATIVES.
I totally understand the view from people who don't use the coach service that others should be prepared to pay much more, but it's not the point. Some would, some wouldn't. What matters is the overall financial impact on the club.
When we introduced the coach service we changed the financial and time equation for many people, particularly those living on the coast, by making attending more viable than it had been before. That's why it works and has continued to work even during the League One years.
The club cannot assume if it changes that equation back those people will still put the time and effort in to attend. More to the point, it would kill stone dead the value for money appeal to a much wider community that at one point had an average of 40 coaches per match (2,000 people) travelling to The Valley, making a six-figure positive annual contribution to the club's finances.
If people want to build the club up, as opposed to wind it down, that's mad.
no issues with it, was a good service, picked us up from The Valley and was not to expensive either