All this about being inexperienced Is a bag of crap, they have been playing football for many years, if at there ages they don't know how to tackle, pass, positioning etc then sorry they are not good enough as they should of learnt it all by now they are professionals training daily it's obviously a too higher level for them.
TBH has been hugely at fault for the same/more conceded goals than Pope or Fox have, and he's supposed to be the quality defender with the experienced head. So we have to drop him too? Defensive options are looking a bit thin if we drop those who have made bad mistakes recently Pretty soon there'll be no one left for people to change their minds about on a game by game basis.
Some of our older supporters may remember a goalkeeper we had named Frank Reed, very similar to Nick Pope! Hope I'm wrong!
Most certainly do especially when Sam Lawrie nutmegged him from the kick off v Plymouth with a pass back in the early sixties to gift the visitors a 1-0 lead. Think we won it 6-4 or 5-2, some silly score in the end.
Some of our older supporters may remember a goalkeeper we had named Frank Reed, very similar to Nick Pope! Hope I'm wrong!
Most certainly do especially when Sam Lawrie nutmegged him from the kick off v Plymouth with a pass back in the early sixties to gift the visitors a 1-0 lead. Think we won it 6-4 or 5-2, some silly score in the end.
I remember that one, terrible start to the match, was that the year we beat them 6-4 then lost 6-4 at Home Park?
Some of our older supporters may remember a goalkeeper we had named Frank Reed, very similar to Nick Pope! Hope I'm wrong!
Most certainly do especially when Sam Lawrie nutmegged him from the kick off v Plymouth with a pass back in the early sixties to gift the visitors a 1-0 lead. Think we won it 6-4 or 5-2, some silly score in the end.
I remember that one, terrible start to the match, was that the year we beat them 6-4 then lost 6-4 at Home Park?
Could have been, those two games 10-10 on aggregate, were over a holiday period I think either Xmas or Easter, it's getting a bit of a blur though these days Lancs. ;-)
Edit; here you go @lancashirelad 26 Dec 1960 Charlton Athletic v Plymouth Argyle W 6-4 League Division Two 27 Dec 1960 Plymouth Argyle v Charlton Athletic L 6-4 League Division Two
Some of our older supporters may remember a goalkeeper we had named Frank Reed, very similar to Nick Pope! Hope I'm wrong!
Most certainly do especially when Sam Lawrie nutmegged him from the kick off v Plymouth with a pass back in the early sixties to gift the visitors a 1-0 lead. Think we won it 6-4 or 5-2, some silly score in the end.
I remember that one, terrible start to the match, was that the year we beat them 6-4 then lost 6-4 at Home Park?</</b>blockquote>
Up until last week I thought Pope had performed superbly. I think it was Millwall he came in for (not Reading as listed above, that was Henderson). Didn't go y'day but my dad and said he pulled off 4 very good saves. Yes he was at fault for the Blackpool goals but on the whole I've been very impressed.
Fox I am a little less sure about, but I believe that it is completely unfair for us to be writing him off so soon. I think it was mentioned in the other thread about him that this is his first real run of games. Yep the mistake against Ipswich was poor, he's not as good as Wiggins going forward, but we gotta give the guy a chance. It's now confidence that's affecting his performance.
If he has to come out the team, I believe the answer is Solly LB, Gomez RB. Solly is class and is able to perform at LB in the interim
We are currently in the classic position of a club that has a small squad. All hunky dory when everyone is fit and in form but as soon as the coach needs to shuffle the pack the lack of quality in depth is cruelly exposed.
We have good players in most positions but it's hard to expect those key players to perform at the top of their game over the course of a season. That's when a manager needs to use the squad.
I feel for Bob because it's obvious for everyone to see he's playing with a very limited hand. If we get in a couple of decent quality players in January and get our injured players back I think we will see a big difference in form and results.
I also think we might have to get used to seasons like this for quite a while. Balancing the books and improving the squad is going to be a very up and down process.
Interesting times.
I think this is a spot on assessment of where we stand as a club a the moment.
Is it not possible that Fox is under instructions not to bomb forward or overlap?
Well Wiggins was under instructions not to bomb forward by the manager but with a request from me and no doubt others he ignored it and made a couple of assists in the week before he got injured. Wish i hadn't said stay fit as well. ("break a leg")
He stood up to the task at Forest but his confidence is low at the moment for sure and his hesitancy has cost us in the last two games. Massive decision for BP and Ben Roberts whether they risk smashing his confidence completely by favouring Etheridge v Cardiff. Assuming Henderson still not available.
After the Millwall game someone started a thread on 'Pope or Henderson'. The consensus was that Henderson should reclaim his position when fit, but that Pope was a good goalkeeper too.
The latter view was no doubt influenced by his performance against Millwall – the Statbank gave him an average of 7.18 and this was the fourth highest in the team. The next two games he also played well: against Ipswich, 7.06, 3rd; against Forest, 7.53, 1st. Then by all accounts he was at fault with both goals against Blackpool and rated bottom.
That brings us to the game against Blackburn. This was a game I saw and I don't share the view that he played badly. He was clearly lacking in confidence early on, no doubt a consequence of the Blackpool experience, and undoubtedly made mistakes during this period. However, later in the first half he made a terrific save and this seemed to restore his confidence. From then on he gave an assured performance. My own ratings put him third, but I acknowledge that others were critical of him.
Summing all this up, I believe that he has played well in four of his last five games. And yet the current thread 'Pope and Fox' while containing a number of supportive posts also includes the following comments:
“Can't play against Cardiff ... these two have struggled and in Pope case costing us points”
“I'm gonna be pissed off if I ended up seeing both of these playing again when we go to Ipswich“
“anyone with any sort of footballing brain can see the problems [Pope and Fox] bring the team”
“[Pope} is League One quality at a push”
“I agree with you and am gutted at how poor Pope has been this season “
If a young player is criticised in this way even when his performance has not been poor, then it will make it much harder for him to make a success of his career at the club.
There's a legitimate question in there though on the tough balancing call in giving an inexperienced player game time to settle and improve, or to take them out the firing line.
Is now the right time for one, both or neither?
Not at the moment dan dropping him now could cause more harm. He's not been playing badly IMO just part of a slowly getting dodgier defence and everyone people deciding he's at fault. Tbh partly at fault for ipshit goal , at fault against Blackburn y'day. The 2nd goal against Blackpool he was also culpable . Fox not had a proper left sided midfielder in front of him to help defend down that side either ,
I would expect to see Solly at left back and we all want to see Henderson back asap. Hopefully Bikey and Ben Haim can show their best again but this isn't the real issue is it? @dickplumb has hit the nail on the head. We need more quality in the front six. I've not seen enough of Bulot to comment but all the others plus the absence of a number nine has led to us having one of the lowest shots on goal targets in the whole division.
I really hope this is resolved in the January window so we can aspire to stay in the top half then step up again over the summer.
The the title sounds like an Aesop fable: the moral of the story is .. neither are good enough for the first team and are there because of circumstances beyond their control ..
We arent going up this season, so as long as we dont go down it's worth giving these players time. If we had any threat at the other end it would take pressure off the defense anyway. At the moment it's like we're there for the other team to train against as there's no outlet so it just keeps coming back.
Both goals were partly Pope's fault on Saturday and he has made a few high profile errors, but he is still young and needs us behind him rather than against him. Like it or not, he is our only decent choice until Hendo is back, unless you'd like a Keeper that not even Oldham want to touch?????
Fox is a different story, I honestly think he's in the Basey mould, too slow and not good enough for this level....BUT, he is young and we need him at the moment. With experience they will both improve so let's support them both until Wiggins and Hendo are back.
Can't play against Cardiff ... I know we want to give the young players a go and I suppport that but these two have struggled and in Pope case costing us points .
Can Bikey and Ben Haim play? They've also been at fault for a fair goals in recent weeks.
We are currently in the classic position of a club that has a small squad. All hunky dory when everyone is fit and in form but as soon as the coach needs to shuffle the pack the lack of quality in depth is cruelly exposed.
We have good players in most positions but it's hard to expect those key players to perform at the top of their game over the course of a season. That's when a manager needs to use the squad.
I feel for Bob because it's obvious for everyone to see he's playing with a very limited hand. If we get in a couple of decent quality players in January and get our injured players back I think we will see a big difference in form and results.
I also think we might have to get used to seasons like this for quite a while. Balancing the books and improving the squad is going to be a very up and down process.
Interesting times.
I think this is a spot on assessment of where we stand as a club a the moment.
Pope looks to me like long term he has a very good future at least Championship level but not yet. I would take him out for his own good. Fox is an honest pro but IMHO will be plying his trade in division one before too long.
i wouldnt' say Pope is a quality keeper, but the goals at the weekend are not only down to him. The radio and updates were all over what a mistake he made for both, but when i saw the goals on FLS Ben Haim left him exposed for the 2nd (not making TBH a scapegoat just pointing the error out). I've only seen Pope play live a handful of times. he looks inexperienced, but he needs some support from his defence as well.
Pope pulled off some good saves at the weekend and pulled off a few others in other games as well. Yes he was at fault for the Blackpool last minute equaliser, but i think harsh to blame him solely for many of the others. Would i prefer for Henderson to be in goal? yes of course i would. but i think pointing him and Fox out as causes of our recent results is very harsh.
I am not huge fan of Fox, but he is also not the reason we are not winning games.
Playing people out of position is a big factor at the moment. If Peeters hasn't got faith in the back ups that he has in the positions where he is having to make these bizarre changes (wtf is Solly doing in midfield and why are we playing our shortest player up front?) then he needs to make RD and KM aware and demand resources in January. Hopefully that will happen. Or he needs to change the formation to cater for what he has got faith in. 3 strikers on the bench and he puts Harriott up top? I agree with a lot of others Tucudean might not be a goalscorer but when he played alongside Vetokele, Vetokele got goals. Or play Piggott alongside Vetokele. I like Harriot but he is a winger.
Hopefully see some re-inforcements in early January.
Don't matter of a keeper makes 4/5 great saves one mistake and you have lost 1-0 anx that's what you get remembed for that's the hard facts of being a keeper ...... His confidence is shot and also the defence have lost confidence in him that's why your seeing TBH and Bikey looking a little nervous ...... Pope will come back big it's time to take him out the limelight a little ....... As for Jackson we have not missed him He would have made no diff to the outcone of either game unless he could play in goal .... The player we do miss from midfield is Francis Coq
Jesus how can you say we have not missed Jackson. Its clear to everyone we have missed him driving the team on.
Granted we're missing Coquelin but its so clear we're missing Jackson even a blind man could see....
Gudmundsson is having to fill Jackson's spot (not working)... Solly is covering Gudmundsson AND act as Captain (Great player) but doesn't have the leadership skills that Jacko has on the pitch... the ONLY good thing we're seeing from Jackson's injury is the fact we're getting to enjoy the talent that is Joe Gomez a bit more
Comments
Neither are any better or worse than I'd expect at this stage of their careers. The problem is our lack of cutting edge other than a 50% fit Vetokele.
Frank Reed, very similar to Nick Pope! Hope I'm wrong!
Edit; here you go @lancashirelad
26 Dec 1960 Charlton Athletic v Plymouth Argyle W 6-4 League Division Two
27 Dec 1960 Plymouth Argyle v Charlton Athletic L 6-4 League Division Two
Fox I am a little less sure about, but I believe that it is completely unfair for us to be writing him off so soon. I think it was mentioned in the other thread about him that this is his first real run of games. Yep the mistake against Ipswich was poor, he's not as good as Wiggins going forward, but we gotta give the guy a chance. It's now confidence that's affecting his performance.
If he has to come out the team, I believe the answer is Solly LB, Gomez RB. Solly is class and is able to perform at LB in the interim
others he ignored it and made a couple of assists in the week before he got injured.
Wish i hadn't said stay fit as well. ("break a leg")
The latter view was no doubt influenced by his performance against Millwall – the Statbank gave him an average of 7.18 and this was the fourth highest in the team. The next two games he also played well: against Ipswich, 7.06, 3rd; against Forest, 7.53, 1st. Then by all accounts he was at fault with both goals against Blackpool and rated bottom.
That brings us to the game against Blackburn. This was a game I saw and I don't share the view that he played badly. He was clearly lacking in confidence early on, no doubt a consequence of the Blackpool experience, and undoubtedly made mistakes during this period. However, later in the first half he made a terrific save and this seemed to restore his confidence. From then on he gave an assured performance. My own ratings put him third, but I acknowledge that others were critical of him.
Summing all this up, I believe that he has played well in four of his last five games. And yet the current thread 'Pope and Fox' while containing a number of supportive posts also includes the following comments:
“Can't play against Cardiff ... these two have struggled and in Pope case costing us points”
“I'm gonna be pissed off if I ended up seeing both of these playing again when we go to Ipswich“
“anyone with any sort of footballing brain can see the problems [Pope and Fox] bring the team”
“[Pope} is League One quality at a push”
“I agree with you and am gutted at how poor Pope has been this season “
If a young player is criticised in this way even when his performance has not been poor, then it will make it much harder for him to make a success of his career at the club.
Not at the moment dan dropping him now could cause more harm. He's not been playing badly IMO just part of a slowly getting dodgier defence and everyone people deciding he's at fault. Tbh partly at fault for ipshit goal , at fault against Blackburn y'day. The 2nd goal against Blackpool he was also culpable . Fox not had a proper left sided midfielder in front of him to help defend down that side either ,
@dickplumb has hit the nail on the head. We need more quality in the front six. I've not seen enough of Bulot to comment but all the others plus the absence of a number nine has led to us having one of the lowest shots on goal targets in the whole division.
I really hope this is resolved in the January window so we can aspire to stay in the top half then step up again over the summer.
Fox is a different story, I honestly think he's in the Basey mould, too slow and not good enough for this level....BUT, he is young and we need him at the moment. With experience they will both improve so let's support them both until Wiggins and Hendo are back.
And the finger wouldn't be pointed so harshly at young inexperienced players learning their game.
Pope pulled off some good saves at the weekend and pulled off a few others in other games as well. Yes he was at fault for the Blackpool last minute equaliser, but i think harsh to blame him solely for many of the others. Would i prefer for Henderson to be in goal? yes of course i would. but i think pointing him and Fox out as causes of our recent results is very harsh.
I am not huge fan of Fox, but he is also not the reason we are not winning games.
Playing people out of position is a big factor at the moment. If Peeters hasn't got faith in the back ups that he has in the positions where he is having to make these bizarre changes (wtf is Solly doing in midfield and why are we playing our shortest player up front?) then he needs to make RD and KM aware and demand resources in January. Hopefully that will happen. Or he needs to change the formation to cater for what he has got faith in. 3 strikers on the bench and he puts Harriott up top? I agree with a lot of others Tucudean might not be a goalscorer but when he played alongside Vetokele, Vetokele got goals. Or play Piggott alongside Vetokele. I like Harriot but he is a winger.
Hopefully see some re-inforcements in early January.
Gudmundsson is having to fill Jackson's spot (not working)... Solly is covering Gudmundsson AND act as Captain (Great player) but doesn't have the leadership skills that Jacko has on the pitch... the ONLY good thing we're seeing from Jackson's injury is the fact we're getting to enjoy the talent that is Joe Gomez a bit more