At the moment, out of the top 40 clubs in the country there are the big five/six, another few and then 20-25 clubs who are either: 1) in the Premier league facing possible relegation, 2) in the Championship with parachute money or 3) like us with no parachute money but on the way back up. Aside from QPR and Cardiff most of those clubs supported FFP and it is therefore reasonable to suggest that they might also support a more equitable distribution of the premier league tv rights in terms of solidarity payments into the Championship or some other way forwards? However I cannot see the rationale of why the clubs nor the FAPL would ever consider folding everything back into the FA. And Greg Dyke / the next Sports minister are not going to die in a ditch trying to force that through because the angry brigade get on a soapbox and say boo to rich clubs! I have mentioned before that the premier league is one of the top three global sports media deals and this didn't happen because the bumbling FA played a hand! It didn't happen by accident and there is 20 years of strategic planning and execution to bring this about. So let's not bite the hand we want to feed us and let us understand that people like M.Duchatelet are attracted to buying clubs like us precisely because of the £125m on offer for winning the play-offs. That money can go towards paying ex-directors(£10m), pushing through a category 1 academy and retaining the best players / acquiring some more - all mentioned in this thread. Once we go up there's no reason why the club shouldn't be structured so as to always have parachute monies when relegated, I.e. Never do a CAFC of 2007 or all the rest of the clubs which Fulham are desperately trying to emulate this season. Solid positive foundations are needed and good business sense rather than rants against the establishment!
I don't think you could have picked a worse example, a game in which a team of our ilk humbled one of the biggest clubs in the world. Of course that's what we strive for.
Aside from QPR and Cardiff most of those clubs supported FFP and it is therefore reasonable to suggest that they might also support a more equitable distribution of the premier league tv rights in terms of solidarity payments into the Championship or some other way forwards?
Well why don't you ask Richard Murray (or Peter Varney) for his experience with that. I cannot remember the exact figure but no more than six clubs including us were in favour of Premiership 2, (when it was discussed during our time in the FAPL) which would be the most sensible and equitable way to spread the money down, and make the Championship less suicidally dangerous for club owners. As the Germans have done.
However I cannot see the rationale of why the clubs nor the FAPL would ever consider folding everything back into the FA.
Of course they won't. Turkeys, Christmas, etc. However English professional football's interests are not necessarily those of Abramovic, sundry Arabs or the Glaziers
I have mentioned before that the premier league is one of the top three global sports media deals and this didn't happen because the bumbling FA played a hand! It didn't happen by accident and there is 20 years of strategic planning and execution to bring this about.
Nice bit of "populist" FA bashing there. Fact is, Scudamore is a great advertising sales man. He's no "strategist". If the FA had hired him, or someone similar, he'd have got the same results. What motivates him is his bonus. As evidence, note that the Bundesliga has steadily increased the size of its own TV deal in the last few years, despite being under the "bumbling" German FA. They however spread the money down more evenly - there is now a Bundesliga 3.
So let's not bite the hand we want to feed us and let us understand that people like M.Duchatelet are attracted to buying clubs like us precisely because of the £125m on offer for winning the play-offs.
The point is that the "£125m" would not disappear. It would simply be spread out over a longer period, and with less of a steep drop off on relegation. If RD knew that Premiership 2 being introduced would mean that our TV money would be guaranteed minimum £10m, rather than the current £3m, he would still be interested; that is more than Standard will get in a season unless they get past the UCL group stages. I cannot be sure of his answer, but I hope to be able to one day ask RD which TV football model he prefers, the English one or the German one. I'd be quietly confident he'd opt for the German one.
The top flight is where all clubs should aspire to be. RD will hopefully take us there. The chances of surviving up there are pretty good these days too.
Aside from QPR and Cardiff most of those clubs supported FFP and it is therefore reasonable to suggest that they might also support a more equitable distribution of the premier league tv rights in terms of solidarity payments into the Championship or some other way forwards?
Well why don't you ask Richard Murray (or Peter Varney) for his experience with that. I cannot remember the exact figure but no more than six clubs including us were in favour of Premiership 2, (when it was discussed during our time in the FAPL) which would be the most sensible and equitable way to spread the money down, and make the Championship less suicidally dangerous for club owners. As the Germans have done.
However I cannot see the rationale of why the clubs nor the FAPL would ever consider folding everything back into the FA.
Of course they won't. Turkeys, Christmas, etc. However English professional football's interests are not necessarily those of Abramovic, sundry Arabs or the Glaziers
I have mentioned before that the premier league is one of the top three global sports media deals and this didn't happen because the bumbling FA played a hand! It didn't happen by accident and there is 20 years of strategic planning and execution to bring this about.
Nice bit of "populist" FA bashing there. Fact is, Scudamore is a great advertising sales man. He's no "strategist". If the FA had hired him, or someone similar, he'd have got the same results. What motivates him is his bonus. As evidence, note that the Bundesliga has steadily increased the size of its own TV deal in the last few years, despite being under the "bumbling" German FA. They however spread the money down more evenly - there is now a Bundesliga 3.
So let's not bite the hand we want to feed us and let us understand that people like M.Duchatelet are attracted to buying clubs like us precisely because of the £125m on offer for winning the play-offs.
The point is that the "£125m" would not disappear. It would simply be spread out over a longer period, and with less of a steep drop off on relegation. If RD knew that Premiership 2 being introduced would mean that our TV money would be guaranteed minimum £10m, rather than the current £3m, he would still be interested; that is more than Standard will get in a season unless they get past the UCL group stages. I cannot be sure of his answer, but I hope to be able to one day ask RD which TV football model he prefers, the English one or the German one. I'd be quietly confident he'd opt for the German one.
The opportunity to achieve this would be at the renegotiation of TV deals. Assuming the numbers continue to creep up, you could increase the Premiership pot by a little but increase distribution of the rest of the monies throughout the Football League, which ultimately would strengthen the Premiership as a competition because there would be less risk in relegation and clubs could aim higher than 'get through the 40 point barrier'.
Then it's not turkeys voting for Christmas - but all the time the clubs are motivated by greed rather than the greater good, and led by individuals like Scudamore who are the perfect microcosm, it's sadly a pipe dream.
The Bundesliga has more chance of achieving these sorts of things because of their club ownership model.
In my opinion the Premier League is the place to be! Millions of pounds would come our way. And the Valley with a capacity of 27,000 or so, would be sold out. Maybe it would even be enlarged? Built for a larger capacity? I read currently there are about 17,000 at home games. Not bad, all due respect. But still, the Premiership would mean a lot of season ticket holders and a lot of notoriety in the media. More money, for additional players. In my opinion that's worth going for.
In my opinion the Premier League is the place to be! Millions of pounds would come our way. And the Valley with a capacity of 27,000 or so, would be sold out. Maybe it would even be enlarged? Built for a larger capacity? I read currently there are about 17,000 at home games. Not bad, all due respect. But still, the Premiership would mean a lot of season ticket holders and a lot of notoriety in the media. More money, for additional players. In my opinion that's worth going for.
Yeah, you could go back to shipping 'fans' in from the sticks again who come to watch the opposition. And you wouldn't have to give away thousands of tickets to locals who don't give a shit about charlton or sell season tickets for 150 quid a pop to keep up the pretence that you're a big club.
In my opinion the Premier League is the place to be! Millions of pounds would come our way. And the Valley with a capacity of 27,000 or so, would be sold out. Maybe it would even be enlarged? Built for a larger capacity? I read currently there are about 17,000 at home games. Not bad, all due respect. But still, the Premiership would mean a lot of season ticket holders and a lot of notoriety in the media. More money, for additional players. In my opinion that's worth going for.
Yeah, you could go back to shipping 'fans' in from the sticks again who come to watch the opposition. And you wouldn't have to give away thousands of tickets to locals who don't give a shit about charlton or sell season tickets for 150 quid a pop to keep up the pretence that you're a big club.
On the other hand, we could offer free Stone Island vouchers and Frank Harper box sets coupled with a meet and greet with Kellie Maloney.....
@PragueAddick Thanks for your constructive response - bit short of time but here are some thoughts (and perhaps just in time given MillwallFan's contribution!)
On Premier League 2 - perhaps it is already evolving but in a different way to Richard Murray's proposal from 15 years back. With four year parachute deals instead of two, the number of clubs on parachute money is expanding slowly - probably about ten now in the Championship are on the payroll - some do well and some are basket cases - t'was ever thus! Forest are having a serious crack at overspending and joining the club just like Cardiff did a while back and Boro looked good on TV last night.
If one argues that all Championship clubs should be on equal TV money then one simply pushes the bar down to the relegation fight to League 1 where failing to avoid the drop risks crashing the club! And you give out free money for no effort... which will just go on players and agents! I expect most of the parachute monies go on players who were responsible for the clubs relegation but this is part of why the Premier League works...It attracts players from around the world.
To qualify for parachute payments is a meritocratic process - top two or win the play-offs. I saw Palace beat Watford at Wembley the other year and we can do the same... just like 1998. The problem for me is when two of the clubs going up run up massive losses and can do this with a view to paying a fine later... so far the idea of continuous financial monitoring has been declined but FFP rules will hopefully evolve.
The German FA is far from bumbling - different ethos, they won the world cup and they have a very high number of qualified coaches throughout the game - someone quoted the numbers in England, Spain and Germany and ours are rediculously low! Thing is that it is entirely within the gift of the FA to shift that number over say five years by using grants, discounts and scholarships to double the numbers and double it again. The FA is, I agree, a soft target because of the failings... Wembley cost double any other stadium and took years and other major projects suffer delays. The FA needs root and branch reform before it is given any additional responsibility IMHO.
On TV models - German is good, English is filthy rich but lets not forget Italy and Spain where individual clubs negotiate rights - I admire your principles but they are unfortunately isolated from the reality which suggest that the bigger clubs have millions of fans worldwide and are in a position to force through a completely different deal if it they see it as their only / best course of action. As Mourinho pointed out recently, at least there are six or seven clubs in with a shout every season as opposed to Spain.
Foreign ownership interest: only recently I discovered that US sports are forbidden from gearing up - hence US owners come over here and try it on - all good when you're winning but Man Utd are in trouble unless they get back to the Champions League sooner rather than later... and Fulham lol! M. Duchatelet isn't going to pay £14M for CAFC to get £4M of TV money per year when the operating losses are £5-6M ... Unless there is a big reward... and that is obviously one year in the Premier League plus parachute money after. Whisper it quietly but he appears to be shifting resources our way - hopefully agent Luzon will fall out with Di Camargo in December and the striker will suddenly jump on Eurostar to seek asylum in SE7!
If we were starting from scratch then there is obviously merit in what you suggest but we're not and there are complex interests at play. Clubs in the Premier League have racked up outlandish amounts of debt and none of them will vote for less cash... the irony is that the increase in media revenues every three years has mainly gone to players and agents, not the clubs nor the FA. This has happened because of the uber competitive nature of the Premier League which in turn has driven up the media rights. People have a pop at corruption in sport which is fair but I'm not sure we want the whole thing to unravel?
So I take on board all that you say Prague but I became a pragmatist a long, long time ago! For me I just want a trip to Wembley for another play-off final. We win and the roller coaster slips into an even higher gear but at least we get to watch top footballers in a sold out Valley again... and that was something we could only dream of as kids.
The main incentive for getting back into the Premiership is so the Valley can be rendered beautifully in a FIFA game. Everything else barely matters in comparison. Look at fans of clubs in the Premier League, they're not happy. Yeah they have full stadiums (also rendered in FIFA), vegetarian cheese and Andy Carroll, but they're not happy. Drawing with Rotherham away, that's the kind of action I like to see.
The main incentive for getting back into the Premiership is so the Valley can be rendered beautifully in a FIFA game. Everything else barely matters in comparison. Look at fans of clubs in the Premier League, they're not happy. Yeah they have full stadiums (also rendered in FIFA), vegetarian cheese and Andy Carroll, but they're not happy. Drawing with Rotherham away, that's the kind of action I like to see.
A draw was good, because if we had won we could have been in the top three and then we would have really been on that slippery slope to the top!
We beat Arsenal 4-2 away from home and unlike Leicester we actually played better than the opposition in that match, plus that was in Arsenal's heyday. For any team outside of the top half of the PL to beat Man Utd would have been impressive 5 years ago, now the list of teams beating Man Utd in any competition in the last 2 years is getting pretty silly. MK Dons for crying out loud!
We were also the only English team to beat Mourinho at Stamford Bridge and Chelsea were top of the PL at the time. True, it wasn't a league game but we did have a Premier League squad at the time.
The main incentive for getting back into the Premiership is so the Valley can be rendered beautifully in a FIFA game. Everything else barely matters in comparison. Look at fans of clubs in the Premier League, they're not happy. Yeah they have full stadiums (also rendered in FIFA), vegetarian cheese and Andy Carroll, but they're not happy. Drawing with Rotherham away, that's the kind of action I like to see.
30 years of football games, never played at The Valley. But tomorrow I can play at The Meccano Set Stadium Selhurst Park.
It just ain't right. I wish they'd at least give me a stadium editor so I can do it myself.
The main incentive for getting back into the Premiership is so the Valley can be rendered beautifully in a FIFA game. Everything else barely matters in comparison. Look at fans of clubs in the Premier League, they're not happy. Yeah they have full stadiums (also rendered in FIFA), vegetarian cheese and Andy Carroll, but they're not happy. Drawing with Rotherham away, that's the kind of action I like to see.
30 years of football games, never played at The Valley. But tomorrow I can play at The Meccano Set Stadium Selhurst Park.
It just ain't right. I wish they'd at least give me a stadium editor so I can do it myself.
With the inclusion of Selhurt Park, FIFA 15 must be the first ever video game to include an explorable virtual replica of a working donkey sanctuary.
What I wish for Charlton is to play entertaining football especially at home and to have regular good cup runs. Given the circumstances of football today, that would be success enough for me.
The PL has become too much about money and is damaging the game and the national team.
If we can do the above and stay out of the PL I won't be unhappy.
Comments
1) in the Premier league facing possible relegation,
2) in the Championship with parachute money or 3) like us with no parachute money but on the way back up.
Aside from QPR and Cardiff most of those clubs supported FFP and it is therefore reasonable to suggest that they might also support a more equitable distribution of the premier league tv rights in terms of solidarity payments into the Championship or some other way forwards?
However I cannot see the rationale of why the clubs nor the FAPL would ever consider folding everything back into the FA. And Greg Dyke / the next Sports minister are not going to die in a ditch trying to force that through because the angry brigade get on a soapbox and say boo to rich clubs!
I have mentioned before that the premier league is one of the top three global sports media deals and this didn't happen because the bumbling FA played a hand! It didn't happen by accident and there is 20 years of strategic planning and execution to bring this about. So let's not bite the hand we want to feed us and let us understand that people like M.Duchatelet are attracted to buying clubs like us precisely because of the £125m on offer for winning the play-offs.
That money can go towards paying ex-directors(£10m), pushing through a category 1 academy and retaining the best players / acquiring some more - all mentioned in this thread.
Once we go up there's no reason why the club shouldn't be structured so as to always have parachute monies when relegated, I.e. Never do a CAFC of 2007 or all the rest of the clubs which Fulham are desperately trying to emulate this season.
Solid positive foundations are needed and good business sense rather than rants against the establishment!
( Will ALWAYS be the last game on !)
Of course that's what we strive for.
However I cannot see the rationale of why the clubs nor the FAPL would ever consider folding everything back into the FA.
Of course they won't. Turkeys, Christmas, etc. However English professional football's interests are not necessarily those of Abramovic, sundry Arabs or the Glaziers
I have mentioned before that the premier league is one of the top three global sports media deals and this didn't happen because the bumbling FA played a hand! It didn't happen by accident and there is 20 years of strategic planning and execution to bring this about.
Nice bit of "populist" FA bashing there. Fact is, Scudamore is a great advertising sales man. He's no "strategist". If the FA had hired him, or someone similar, he'd have got the same results. What motivates him is his bonus. As evidence, note that the Bundesliga has steadily increased the size of its own TV deal in the last few years, despite being under the "bumbling" German FA. They however spread the money down more evenly - there is now a Bundesliga 3.
So let's not bite the hand we want to feed us and let us understand that people like M.Duchatelet are attracted to buying clubs like us precisely because of the £125m on offer for winning the play-offs.
The point is that the "£125m" would not disappear. It would simply be spread out over a longer period, and with less of a steep drop off on relegation. If RD knew that Premiership 2 being introduced would mean that our TV money would be guaranteed minimum £10m, rather than the current £3m, he would still be interested; that is more than Standard will get in a season unless they get past the UCL group stages. I cannot be sure of his answer, but I hope to be able to one day ask RD which TV football model he prefers, the English one or the German one. I'd be quietly confident he'd opt for the German one.
I'd go for la liga
Is this a choice if not prem prem prem
The chances of surviving up there are pretty good these days too.
Then it's not turkeys voting for Christmas - but all the time the clubs are motivated by greed rather than the greater good, and led by individuals like Scudamore who are the perfect microcosm, it's sadly a pipe dream.
The Bundesliga has more chance of achieving these sorts of things because of their club ownership model.
Thanks for your constructive response - bit short of time but here are some thoughts (and perhaps just in time given MillwallFan's contribution!)
On Premier League 2 - perhaps it is already evolving but in a different way to Richard Murray's proposal from 15 years back. With four year parachute deals instead of two, the number of clubs on parachute money is expanding slowly - probably about ten now in the Championship are on the payroll - some do well and some are basket cases - t'was ever thus! Forest are having a serious crack at overspending and joining the club just like Cardiff did a while back and Boro looked good on TV last night.
If one argues that all Championship clubs should be on equal TV money then one simply pushes the bar down to the relegation fight to League 1 where failing to avoid the drop risks crashing the club! And you give out free money for no effort... which will just go on players and agents! I expect most of the parachute monies go on players who were responsible for the clubs relegation but this is part of why the Premier League works...It attracts players from around the world.
To qualify for parachute payments is a meritocratic process - top two or win the play-offs. I saw Palace beat Watford at Wembley the other year and we can do the same... just like 1998. The problem for me is when two of the clubs going up run up massive losses and can do this with a view to paying a fine later... so far the idea of continuous financial monitoring has been declined but FFP rules will hopefully evolve.
The German FA is far from bumbling - different ethos, they won the world cup and they have a very high number of qualified coaches throughout the game - someone quoted the numbers in England, Spain and Germany and ours are rediculously low! Thing is that it is entirely within the gift of the FA to shift that number over say five years by using grants, discounts and scholarships to double the numbers and double it again. The FA is, I agree, a soft target because of the failings... Wembley cost double any other stadium and took years and other major projects suffer delays. The FA needs root and branch reform before it is given any additional responsibility IMHO.
On TV models - German is good, English is filthy rich but lets not forget Italy and Spain where individual clubs negotiate rights - I admire your principles but they are unfortunately isolated from the reality which suggest that the bigger clubs have millions of fans worldwide and are in a position to force through a completely different deal if it they see it as their only / best course of action. As Mourinho pointed out recently, at least there are six or seven clubs in with a shout every season as opposed to Spain.
Foreign ownership interest: only recently I discovered that US sports are forbidden from gearing up - hence US owners come over here and try it on - all good when you're winning but Man Utd are in trouble unless they get back to the Champions League sooner rather than later... and Fulham lol! M. Duchatelet isn't going to pay £14M for CAFC to get £4M of TV money per year when the operating losses are £5-6M ... Unless there is a big reward... and that is obviously one year in the Premier League plus parachute money after. Whisper it quietly but he appears to be shifting resources our way - hopefully agent Luzon will fall out with Di Camargo in December and the striker will suddenly jump on Eurostar to seek asylum in SE7!
If we were starting from scratch then there is obviously merit in what you suggest but we're not and there are complex interests at play. Clubs in the Premier League have racked up outlandish amounts of debt and none of them will vote for less cash... the irony is that the increase in media revenues every three years has mainly gone to players and agents, not the clubs nor the FA. This has happened because of the uber competitive nature of the Premier League which in turn has driven up the media rights. People have a pop at corruption in sport which is fair but I'm not sure we want the whole thing to unravel?
So I take on board all that you say Prague but I became a pragmatist a long, long time ago! For me I just want a trip to Wembley for another play-off final. We win and the roller coaster slips into an even higher gear but at least we get to watch top footballers in a sold out Valley again... and that was something we could only dream of as kids.
We were also the only English team to beat Mourinho at Stamford Bridge and Chelsea were top of the PL at the time. True, it wasn't a league game but we did have a Premier League squad at the time.
It just ain't right. I wish they'd at least give me a stadium editor so I can do it myself.
The PL has become too much about money and is damaging the game and the national team.
If we can do the above and stay out of the PL I won't be unhappy.