Since I was on the board already, I am freely admitting collective responsibility. We know that certain members of the management team were neither competent nor helpful to us - and they have departed - but nobody likes to be lectured on their job by outsiders. That was my point to SR.
No one likes to be lectured at. So why do you do it?
Life is short @PragueAddick and it is clearly 100% your choice if you wish to distort the history of the relationship between the club and the Trust. Your Trust chairman has already put you straight on the fact that nothing is black and white but still you carry on with selective and isolated criticisms which are impossible to defend?
It may appear ironic for me to be suggesting to you what you should and shouldn't post on a message board... the difference is that I am no longer on the Trust Board and clearly speak for myself. You however are on the Trust board and show no judgment and no restraint in what you post.
The last six months has been non stop insult and innuendo against the new set up from you. So how about removing the plank from thine own eye before commenting on a speck of dust in someone elses?
I know quite a few folk who gave up season tickets because of the shit football over the last two seasons, get it right on the pitch and the lost 2 thousand will come back.
I was shocked at how empty the south end of the west stand looked in those David Whyte photos. I've been in L block for a while now and had no idea how few people there were on the other side of the hospitality seats. I think the Premier League years might have slightly distorted expectations. An average of about 16000 is good for us IMO.
Has anyone ever considered that all this wretched and totally needless public sniping just wears people down and that they end up thinking to hell with this football malarkey, I've got better things to spend my money on? We, for example, are enjoying life as pikeys in the S of France, we weren't enjoying life at the Valley, sometimes things are really quite simple.
Obviously an unrealistic suggestion but I'd shut all the upper tiers and fill up the east and lower tiers. It would look better, and maybe save on stewarding costs as no one would need to be working in that part of the stands. Might even help improve the atmosphere.
Has anyone ever considered that all this wretched and totally needless public sniping just wears people down and that they end up thinking to hell with this football malarkey, I've got better things to spend my money on? We, for example, are enjoying life as pikeys in the S of France, we weren't enjoying life at the Valley, sometimes things are really quite simple.
You might have to elaborate a bit there. What public sniping?
I have got used to seeing the West Stand a bit sparse (from my seat in East Stand Block G) but it really is noticeable how many gaps there are in the North Lower. I guess quite a number from there have relocated to East Stand Block A but I can't see that from my seat. Is that the case?
I can't blame people for not renewing their season tickets after a sub standard pitch and team , everything about last season stank , for any reading this who haven't been to the valley yet this season because they were totally hacked off , give it a go , they've even got wifi so you can check your dream team whilst the goals are flying in at the valley :-0
Clearly you haven't read the latest TNT. Your description of my attitude towards the current set up- I presume you mean the club- is based on pure fantasy.
Now, out of respect to @stilladdicted, I'll leave it there. And apologies to her and everyone else.
I've not looked at the crowd figures in detail but I expect we are up a little on last season but way down on two years back - before price rises and two years of mainly dire football. So prices are back down and we are top six...the missing ingredient is promotion. Not looked beyond Wolves and Boro at home but we need something big around home games in a month or two. There's a very clear statement in the standard, almost a challenge - "if we are chasing promotion AND there's a good vibe then we will strengthen the squad" Perhaps fan organisations with thousands of contacts should work with the club to fill some of those 8,000 empty seats?
Only read as far as your post, SR & have to agree with you about "something big " in the near future.
You suggest assistance from fan organisations with "thousands of contacts" might help put bums on seats but I think you are over egging the number of supporters that have been involved with SGs in recent years....hundreds maybe but IMHO, def not thousands.
As far as freebies/kids for a quid etc initiatives, the Club has stated time & again that it is mindful of season ticket holders' up front investments and the requirement to NOT invalidate the value of these. A balancing act indeed...
However, at the FF mtg recently, we were introduced to the Club's new Development manager, Lisa Squires who most will know as the VG administrator. Lisa's role is exactly what we are calling for - to bring in more fans to The Valley. She stated that she would welcome input from anyone who has constructive suggestions to make so time to put on our thinking caps & get in touch.
For anyone concerned that I have divulged any information in advance of the minutes being posted on the OS link, I would state that it is ALWAYS my only intention to assist with anything that might help our Club & its supporters and I hope that everyone concerned is aware of this.
Covered End Upper is one area that is pretty full. So why antagonise and alienate those who buy their season tickets there by suggesting closing it? Unless you are a troll of course in which case ok I've bitten!
The "asset sweater" already antagonised hundreds of season ticket holders with his Cross Bar idea. Don't we ever learn? We want to attract more season ticket holders not alienate the valuable ones we have.
You don't gain more "customers" (the word that seems in vogue) by antagonising and alienating those that have remained loyal to you.
You gain more "customers" by:
1) Improving the product on the park which, in fairness, is happening. The next stage is overcoming the natural cynicism of gnarled old Charlton fans convinced that any improvement in form is just a "flash in the pan."
2) Don't treat us with contempt. Exemplified by the disgusting treatment of ME14 Addick and her family in a supposed "premium" part of the ground. We know the Club regards us as "customers" until they have our money when we revert to being "punters" when it comes to the service aspect or, in other words, actually giving us what we have paid for.
The Club consider it acceptable that "customers" miss 15 minutes or more of a match if they want food or drink at halftime. That is a fact because they have made absolutely no effort to improve the situation over many years. When money is tight the casual visitor simply will not stand for being "mugged off."
3) Same as 2) but relates to tickets. Not everybody wants to plan their lives to the nth degree and decide weeks or months in advance that they are going to a football match. Sometimes, like yesterday, it's a nice sunny day and one thinks I fancy a game of football. Queuing for what seems like hours for tickets and missing the kick off and thus, in yesterday's instance, the only goal of the game is not calculated to win friends and influence people.
4) Don't tinker with the history and heritage of the Club eg Red, Red Robin. We are a family club. Such things are handed from generation to generation. Recognise and embrace that rather than fight it.
In summary "customer service" and "value for money" rather than "asset sweating."
I realise such views are an anachronism in the 21st Century and deserve to be ignored but here they are anyway should there be a smidgin of interest.
I think that, outside the big clubs in the Premier League, the public's appetite for football is becoming a little dulled. That is probably due to a number of factors, including the amount of live football on Sky and BT (including a raft of La Liga games every weekend) and the poor press that some of the top players and the administrators get (much of it deserved), The ridiculous amount of money washing around the Premier League engenders a feeling of cynicism and probably makes some people feel disconnected from the game, while the 'celebrity culture' and desire for instant gratification in modern life - of which Sky are big proponents - hardly encourages youngsters to go along and see their local Football League team. Of course, many people have been priced out of the top level games, but what does that matter if Sky can convert them into armchair fans ? It's also probably right to say that these things tend to go in cycles, although in the face of this onslaught, gates in the Football League have held up pretty well.
We all know it will be a long road back for our club and I cannot realistically see us achieving 20,000 regularly in this division - not that we have ever done so in my living memory (in fact, I think we only managed in twice - once the season after we went down and nearly came back in 57/58 and once again in the 1930s). Our home support has been slipping over the last two years as people have become disaffected with the club's direction and the general trauma of last season. Roland is certainly doing his utmost to turn things around and if we can continue to make a decent fist of it on the pitch, I'm confident that we'll attract back some former regulars.
The Community Scheme is important in helping to try and convert youngsters to the cause, but it's not a panacea and pulling kids in is probably a more difficult task now than it once was.
Whilst results on the pitch will always be the biggest determinant, what's probably needed - as others have suggested - is, say, a modern day 'Target 20,000' group, where Katrien and her colleagues can have the benefit of views from the Trust, the Fans Forum and others, with a view to formulating a plan and then implementing it to try and get our core home support up. It certainly worked in the past, so I cannot see any good reason why the club would not wish to give it another go.
In terms of immediate action points, I agree with Kap 10 that we really should be advertising our range of very competitive match day prices to try and tempt people along.
In my opinion the pricing for north lower is all wrong! This should be second cheapest in the ground after the A block. Would be far better to have that area full than the upper north. Look better on TV too. Why is it as expensive to sit behind a goal as to sit in the east or west with a much better view?
In my opinion the pricing for north lower is all wrong! This should be second cheapest in the ground after the A block. Would be far better to have that area full than the upper north. Look better on TV too. Why is it as expensive to sit behind a goal as to sit in the east or west with a much better view?
It allows the club to charge the away fans more in the Jimmy Seed as they have to charge the away fans the same price as the equivalent stand for away games. The fact it is cheaper in the North Upper shows the club playing the rules
In my opinion the pricing for north lower is all wrong! This should be second cheapest in the ground after the A block. Would be far better to have that area full than the upper north. Look better on TV too. Why is it as expensive to sit behind a goal as to sit in the east or west with a much better view?
It allows the club to charge the away fans more in the Jimmy Seed as they have to charge the away fans the same price as the equivalent stand for away games. The fact it is cheaper in the North Upper shows the club playing the rules
Not sure this sentence makes sense, can you please elaborate, and is this the actual rules? Don't Arsenal get away with charging away fans £90 or something silly?
In my opinion the pricing for north lower is all wrong! This should be second cheapest in the ground after the A block. Would be far better to have that area full than the upper north. Look better on TV too. Why is it as expensive to sit behind a goal as to sit in the east or west with a much better view?
Because the rules are that you can't charge the away fans more than you charge the home fans for equivilent areas.
In our case that is the covered end lower and Jimmy Seed
The STs for the lower nth were much cheaper then the rest of the ground to compensate for this. That differential has gone with the A and B blocks.
I'm biased but a new updated version of T40k is one of the ways forward IMO.
The FF is great (again I'm biased) but it is a general purpose group to raise a wide range of issues.
T40k was a specific issue group. That allowed it to focus on detail and consider confidential commercial info.
Its other function was to make detailed costed recommendations direct to the board which were more than often taken up.
With a much smaller board decision making would be much easier.
I would suggest the new T27k focus group consist of KM, Lisa Squires (Dev Mngr), commercial manager, new operations manager, John Little (safety officer as ideas have to be practical), Dave Coghlan (ticket office) and three or four fans with knowledge of the area.
Those fans shouldn't be there to represent any group (although they may be officers or members of groups) but there for their knowledge and/or experience of business development and marketing.
Anyone called Ben or Hayes shouldn't be allowed nor should anyone who says "we need to think outside the box" without actually coming up with solid costed proposals.
I wonder if the club will do another 'Jackson 5' or 'Yanntastic 4' type offer?
I'd love to come to more games than I do (and spend more money than I do), but I can't justify an ST any more for time/finance reasons, and the matchday prices just don't offer too much value for money - certainly considering the last couple of seasons. I don't expect every game to be an absolute belter, but since it only takes one decent game to make up for a number of dire ones, I'd see it as a lower risk to shell out for a small block of discounted games.
FWIW I wouldn't pay for a seat in the North Lower when the view from the North Upper (where I used to have a ST) is far superior, and it's cheaper. I'm sure the club has priced the seats according to historical demand, so perhaps I'm in the minority there.
In my opinion the pricing for north lower is all wrong! This should be second cheapest in the ground after the A block. Would be far better to have that area full than the upper north. Look better on TV too. Why is it as expensive to sit behind a goal as to sit in the east or west with a much better view?
It allows the club to charge the away fans more in the Jimmy Seed as they have to charge the away fans the same price as the equivalent stand for away games. The fact it is cheaper in the North Upper shows the club playing the rules
Not sure this sentence makes sense, can you please elaborate, and is this the actual rules? Don't Arsenal get away with charging away fans £90 or something silly?
What I mean is that instead of charging the away fans £20 which is the price of the North Upper, they instead charge £24 (£28 for Gold games) the same price as the North Lower
In my opinion the pricing for north lower is all wrong! This should be second cheapest in the ground after the A block. Would be far better to have that area full than the upper north. Look better on TV too. Why is it as expensive to sit behind a goal as to sit in the east or west with a much better view?
It allows the club to charge the away fans more in the Jimmy Seed as they have to charge the away fans the same price as the equivalent stand for away games. The fact it is cheaper in the North Upper shows the club playing the rules
Not sure this sentence makes sense, can you please elaborate, and is this the actual rules? Don't Arsenal get away with charging away fans £90 or something silly?
What I mean is that instead of charging the away fans £20 which is the price of the North Upper, they instead charge £24 (£28 for Gold games) the same price as the North Lower
Got it, that makes sense.
Since the cameras face the West Stand, surely if you want to look good for TV then they should be the cheapest seats?
In my opinion the pricing for north lower is all wrong! This should be second cheapest in the ground after the A block. Would be far better to have that area full than the upper north. Look better on TV too. Why is it as expensive to sit behind a goal as to sit in the east or west with a much better view?
It allows the club to charge the away fans more in the Jimmy Seed as they have to charge the away fans the same price as the equivalent stand for away games. The fact it is cheaper in the North Upper shows the club playing the rules
Not sure this sentence makes sense, can you please elaborate, and is this the actual rules? Don't Arsenal get away with charging away fans £90 or something silly?
Arsenal do also charge home fans £90 upwards for their gold games
The one snag with the A block offer, is that it's in the one stand that can't be seen from the TV cameras!
I remember Millwall have this problem, in that the upper tiers behind the goals are more popular than the lower tiers, so that even if they have (an occasional) good attendance, none of them are visible to the main TV cameras!
They should have done the £150 season ticket offer in the North Lower, i think more would have taken it up.
The £150 offer was for around 4-500 seats whereas the North Lower holds up to 3,000.
I'm sure there are an awful lot of lapsed season ticket holders since 2007 as well as new fans who might be attracted back in at the right price, promotion and product.
We have the product now at long, long last. Perhaps word will spread and certainly the media coverage is more positive.
Perhaps the club will consult with fans in a meaningful way to sound out ideas as well as build on a sense of involvement but that process can be fraught. Just saying
Just come back, we promise we won't call you plastic fans any more, or if you leave ten mins from the end when we are losing i won't shout loyal supporter at you. yes i know you were only there to watch the prem stars but we are on the way up, and we are getting into the habit of winning again.
Comments
So why do you do it?
Life is short @PragueAddick and it is clearly 100% your choice if you wish to distort the history of the relationship between the club and the Trust. Your Trust chairman has already put you straight on the fact that nothing is black and white but still you carry on with selective and isolated criticisms which are impossible to defend?
It may appear ironic for me to be suggesting to you what you should and shouldn't post on a message board... the difference is that I am no longer on the Trust Board and clearly speak for myself. You however are on the Trust board and show no judgment and no restraint in what you post.
The last six months has been non stop insult and innuendo against the new set up from you. So how about removing the plank from thine own eye before commenting on a speck of dust in someone elses?
I think the Premier League years might have slightly distorted expectations. An average of about 16000 is good for us IMO.
Premier League Football.
Clearly you haven't read the latest TNT. Your description of my attitude towards the current set up- I presume you mean the club- is based on pure fantasy.
Now, out of respect to @stilladdicted, I'll leave it there. And apologies to her and everyone else.
You suggest assistance from fan organisations with "thousands of contacts" might help put bums on seats but I think you are over egging the number of supporters that have been involved with SGs in recent years....hundreds maybe but IMHO, def not thousands.
As far as freebies/kids for a quid etc initiatives, the Club has stated time & again that it is mindful of season ticket holders' up front investments and the requirement to NOT invalidate the value of these. A balancing act indeed...
However, at the FF mtg recently, we were introduced to the Club's new Development manager, Lisa Squires who most will know as the VG administrator. Lisa's role is exactly what we are calling for - to bring in more fans to The Valley. She stated that she would welcome input from anyone who has constructive suggestions to make so time to put on our thinking caps & get in touch.
For anyone concerned that I have divulged any information in advance of the minutes being posted on the OS link, I would state that it is ALWAYS my only intention to assist with anything that might help our Club & its supporters and I hope that everyone concerned is aware of this.
The "asset sweater" already antagonised hundreds of season ticket holders with his Cross Bar idea. Don't we ever learn? We want to attract more season ticket holders not alienate the valuable ones we have.
You don't gain more "customers" (the word that seems in vogue) by antagonising and alienating those that have remained loyal to you.
You gain more "customers" by:
1) Improving the product on the park which, in fairness, is happening. The next stage is overcoming the natural cynicism of gnarled old Charlton fans convinced that any improvement in form is just a "flash in the pan."
2) Don't treat us with contempt. Exemplified by the disgusting treatment of ME14 Addick and her family in a supposed "premium" part of the ground. We know the Club regards us as "customers" until they have our money when we revert to being "punters" when it comes to the service aspect or, in other words, actually giving us what we have paid for.
The Club consider it acceptable that "customers" miss 15 minutes or more of a match if they want food or drink at halftime. That is a fact because they have made absolutely no effort to improve the situation over many years. When money is tight the casual visitor simply will not stand for being "mugged off."
3) Same as 2) but relates to tickets. Not everybody wants to plan their lives to the nth degree and decide weeks or months in advance that they are going to a football match. Sometimes, like yesterday, it's a nice sunny day and one thinks I fancy a game of football. Queuing for what seems like hours for tickets and missing the kick off and thus, in yesterday's instance, the only goal of the game is not calculated to win friends and influence people.
4) Don't tinker with the history and heritage of the Club eg Red, Red Robin. We are a family club. Such things are handed from generation to generation. Recognise and embrace that rather than fight it.
In summary "customer service" and "value for money" rather than "asset sweating."
I realise such views are an anachronism in the 21st Century and deserve to be ignored but here they are anyway should there be a smidgin of interest.
We all know it will be a long road back for our club and I cannot realistically see us achieving 20,000 regularly in this division - not that we have ever done so in my living memory (in fact, I think we only managed in twice - once the season after we went down and nearly came back in 57/58 and once again in the 1930s). Our home support has been slipping over the last two years as people have become disaffected with the club's direction and the general trauma of last season. Roland is certainly doing his utmost to turn things around and if we can continue to make a decent fist of it on the pitch, I'm confident that we'll attract back some former regulars.
The Community Scheme is important in helping to try and convert youngsters to the cause, but it's not a panacea and pulling kids in is probably a more difficult task now than it once was.
Whilst results on the pitch will always be the biggest determinant, what's probably needed - as others have suggested - is, say, a modern day 'Target 20,000' group, where Katrien and her colleagues can have the benefit of views from the Trust, the Fans Forum and others, with a view to formulating a plan and then implementing it to try and get our core home support up. It certainly worked in the past, so I cannot see any good reason why the club would not wish to give it another go.
In terms of immediate action points, I agree with Kap 10 that we really should be advertising our range of very competitive match day prices to try and tempt people along.
In our case that is the covered end lower and Jimmy Seed
The STs for the lower nth were much cheaper then the rest of the ground to compensate for this. That differential has gone with the A and B blocks.
I'm biased but a new updated version of T40k is one of the ways forward IMO.
The FF is great (again I'm biased) but it is a general purpose group to raise a wide range of issues.
T40k was a specific issue group. That allowed it to focus on detail and consider confidential commercial info.
Its other function was to make detailed costed recommendations direct to the board which were more than often taken up.
With a much smaller board decision making would be much easier.
I would suggest the new T27k focus group consist of KM, Lisa Squires (Dev Mngr), commercial manager, new operations manager, John Little (safety officer as ideas have to be practical), Dave Coghlan (ticket office) and three or four fans with knowledge of the area.
Those fans shouldn't be there to represent any group (although they may be officers or members of groups) but there for their knowledge and/or experience of business development and marketing.
Anyone called Ben or Hayes shouldn't be allowed nor should anyone who says "we need to think outside the box" without actually coming up with solid costed proposals.
I'd love to come to more games than I do (and spend more money than I do), but I can't justify an ST any more for time/finance reasons, and the matchday prices just don't offer too much value for money - certainly considering the last couple of seasons. I don't expect every game to be an absolute belter, but since it only takes one decent game to make up for a number of dire ones, I'd see it as a lower risk to shell out for a small block of discounted games.
FWIW I wouldn't pay for a seat in the North Lower when the view from the North Upper (where I used to have a ST) is far superior, and it's cheaper. I'm sure the club has priced the seats according to historical demand, so perhaps I'm in the minority there.
Section 34.2.8 refers
Since the cameras face the West Stand, surely if you want to look good for TV then they should be the cheapest seats?
I remember Millwall have this problem, in that the upper tiers behind the goals are more popular than the lower tiers, so that even if they have (an occasional) good attendance, none of them are visible to the main TV cameras!
I'm sure there are an awful lot of lapsed season ticket holders since 2007 as well as new fans who might be attracted back in at the right price, promotion and product.
We have the product now at long, long last. Perhaps word will spread and certainly the media coverage is more positive.
Perhaps the club will consult with fans in a meaningful way to sound out ideas as well as build on a sense of involvement but that process can be fraught. Just saying
Come back you know it makes sense.