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The 2015 General Election

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  • edited October 2014

    Andy Burnham, shadow health secretary will face a tricky election, then.
    In 2009 he made the pledge that the NHS is not for sale. Not now not ever.

    By Feb 2010 when the only public bidder for Hinchingbrooke dropped out, he went ahead and outsourced it. It was subsequently taken over by private equity owned Circle Health. This is where the divisions started - perhaps people should think of this as they peddle the myth that the future of the NHS is safe with Labour any more than the tories.

    Circle will be seeking to take advantage of future competitions, especially if their mate Burnham gets into power.

    Whatever changes to the law made by the next government, they will still face the prospect of EU law. Labour stated at their conference that they want to sign international trade agreements with the US (and probably the Tories will too), and that will see private healthcare companies seeking redress in European courts if they see the NHS being 'preferred' to them.

    Labour are just as much a threat as the tories to the NHS. Some people need to take their blinkers off. See my post on Labour PFI figures, above.

    you seem to be obsessed with 'tories are right, labour are wrong' argument. when it comes to the nhs (or the economy or that matter) neither party come out with much glory in recent years. the main difference is probably that the tories are more blatant about selling things off.

    the reality is that the nhs has a huge funding hole that needs to be resolved. the question is how? do you go for the privatised, capitalist model, keep the existing model and look for efficiency or something in between. a number of health trusts are now community interest companies which gives them access to other funding.

    whatever happens, there will be a different funding model for the nhs in the future. but what do we put as the main priority? the patient or the shareholder?
    Not at all Henry.
    I'm merely countering the 'Tories carve up the nhs' crap on here when, as I have tried to show, is not the whole story. You can't ignore the 63 billion PFI burden handed to the nhs by labour can you?
    And if you read my posts you will see I am equally sceptical about the Tories. Only on here it is a very one sided dismissal of one bunch of self servers whilst the people the critics support are just as bad, in fact worse.
    You're presumably aware the public health function was transfered out of the NHS and placed within the control of local authorities last year? Yes the budget was ringfenced for a couple of years (up to the election funnily enough IIRC) but then what? Already those involved in long term planning for improvements in the UK's health are talking of the ringfenced budget being used to plug gaps in related (and some seemingly unrelated) services by councils.

    Are preventative services and longer term public health planning going to get better or worse by getting lumped into the bunfight that is local authority budgeting? Or by being disconnected from those services that provide treatment at the other end of the timeframe? Seems to me to be eminently more sensible to have those working to prevent illness and promote a long term healthy lifestyle working alongside those providing treatment but then again maybe it's just more "crap".

    See. I didn't even point out that maybe the reason behind this may also be because there's no money to be made out of running a tobacco reduction campaign......doh!
  • Addickted said:

    Addickted said:

    aliwibble said:

    Most of these were announced this week weren't they?

    Any details of how they would be funded?

    That's a very good point. And how are the Tories going to fund the £7bn cost of the tax cuts they've promised today?
    I suspect the £25bn of planned spending cuts in the first two years of the next Government would make a sizeable hole in that.

    "Somebody working a 30-hour week on the minimum wage would pay no income tax: nothing, zero, zilch."

    "Increasing the personal allowance would take one million of the lowest-paid out of income tax and give a tax cut to 30 million more".

    Can't see what's not to like with that.

    Great! Some people get a few more quid to put towards paying for rising fuel bills, housing costs, food, transport, etc...
    30 million? Some?

    Addickted said:

    aliwibble said:

    Most of these were announced this week weren't they?

    Any details of how they would be funded?

    That's a very good point. And how are the Tories going to fund the £7bn cost of the tax cuts they've promised today?
    I suspect the £25bn of planned spending cuts in the first two years of the next Government would make a sizeable hole in that.

    "Somebody working a 30-hour week on the minimum wage would pay no income tax: nothing, zero, zilch."

    "Increasing the personal allowance would take one million of the lowest-paid out of income tax and give a tax cut to 30 million more".

    Can't see what's not to like with that.

    so what if it means our councils for example can't afford to run days centres for the elderly, repair our schools, look after our mentally ill, inspect our takeaways, clean our parks, repair our roads and the 1000's of other things large and small we take for granted until they're not there.
    I must have missed all these things happening? Will I get a refund on my council tax?
    Just checked what those Tory bastards at KCC were getting rid of in 2014/15. This does't include Medway, or what you Local Council spends either

    Day Centres for the elderly? Nope, still there. £95m
    Repairing schools? No, they're still doing that. £28.7m
    Mentally ill? Thought that was the NHS, but guess what? £224.1m on Nursing and residential care
    Dodgy takeaways? £57.1m on Public Health
    No dog shit in the park? Nope that's gone when the grass was cut. £16.2m
    Potholes - God how we Charlton fans hate pot holes. Nope. another £46.4 on our Highways

    You need to be more specific about the other 1,000s of things those evil facists have got rid of.

    Or are you just scaremongering? Or is it just Dorset where this has all happened?


    http://www.kent.gov.uk/__data/assets/excel_doc/0011/7958/Budget-summary-2014-15.xls

    local.gov.uk/media-releases/-/journal_content/56/10180/5636691/NEWS

    ...it's a year old but hey, you know what, things haven't got any better in the meantime.
  • Addickted said:

    Addickted said:

    aliwibble said:

    Most of these were announced this week weren't they?

    Any details of how they would be funded?

    That's a very good point. And how are the Tories going to fund the £7bn cost of the tax cuts they've promised today?
    I suspect the £25bn of planned spending cuts in the first two years of the next Government would make a sizeable hole in that.

    "Somebody working a 30-hour week on the minimum wage would pay no income tax: nothing, zero, zilch."

    "Increasing the personal allowance would take one million of the lowest-paid out of income tax and give a tax cut to 30 million more".

    Can't see what's not to like with that.

    Great! Some people get a few more quid to put towards paying for rising fuel bills, housing costs, food, transport, etc...
    30 million? Some?

    Addickted said:

    aliwibble said:

    Most of these were announced this week weren't they?

    Any details of how they would be funded?

    That's a very good point. And how are the Tories going to fund the £7bn cost of the tax cuts they've promised today?
    I suspect the £25bn of planned spending cuts in the first two years of the next Government would make a sizeable hole in that.

    "Somebody working a 30-hour week on the minimum wage would pay no income tax: nothing, zero, zilch."

    "Increasing the personal allowance would take one million of the lowest-paid out of income tax and give a tax cut to 30 million more".

    Can't see what's not to like with that.

    so what if it means our councils for example can't afford to run days centres for the elderly, repair our schools, look after our mentally ill, inspect our takeaways, clean our parks, repair our roads and the 1000's of other things large and small we take for granted until they're not there.
    I must have missed all these things happening? Will I get a refund on my council tax?
    Just checked what those Tory bastards at KCC were getting rid of in 2014/15. This does't include Medway, or what you Local Council spends either

    Day Centres for the elderly? Nope, still there. £95m
    Repairing schools? No, they're still doing that. £28.7m
    Mentally ill? Thought that was the NHS, but guess what? £224.1m on Nursing and residential care
    Dodgy takeaways? £57.1m on Public Health
    No dog shit in the park? Nope that's gone when the grass was cut. £16.2m
    Potholes - God how we Charlton fans hate pot holes. Nope. another £46.4 on our Highways

    You need to be more specific about the other 1,000s of things those evil facists have got rid of.

    Or are you just scaremongering? Or is it just Dorset where this has all happened?


    http://www.kent.gov.uk/__data/assets/excel_doc/0011/7958/Budget-summary-2014-15.xls
    local.gov.uk/media-releases/-/journal_content/56/10180/5636691/NEWS

    ...it's a year old but hey, you know what, things haven't got any better in the meantime.

    Exactly.

    The LGA saying don't cut our budgets anymore - bit like turkeys pleading for Christmas to be banned. They probably saved £50k PA by getting rid of the press officer, which is why you don't have a report for this year.

    The KCC Budget figures are for this year - and everything you say is going to go has it's own budgetry heading - not as much as we may all like, but it's still there.

    So what exactly is wrong about making 30 million tax payers have a few more bob in their pocket?

    Why just the constant stream of scaremongering?
  • Addickted said:

    Addickted said:

    Addickted said:

    aliwibble said:

    Most of these were announced this week weren't they?

    Any details of how they would be funded?

    That's a very good point. And how are the Tories going to fund the £7bn cost of the tax cuts they've promised today?
    I suspect the £25bn of planned spending cuts in the first two years of the next Government would make a sizeable hole in that.

    "Somebody working a 30-hour week on the minimum wage would pay no income tax: nothing, zero, zilch."

    "Increasing the personal allowance would take one million of the lowest-paid out of income tax and give a tax cut to 30 million more".

    Can't see what's not to like with that.

    Great! Some people get a few more quid to put towards paying for rising fuel bills, housing costs, food, transport, etc...
    30 million? Some?

    Addickted said:

    aliwibble said:

    Most of these were announced this week weren't they?

    Any details of how they would be funded?

    That's a very good point. And how are the Tories going to fund the £7bn cost of the tax cuts they've promised today?
    I suspect the £25bn of planned spending cuts in the first two years of the next Government would make a sizeable hole in that.

    "Somebody working a 30-hour week on the minimum wage would pay no income tax: nothing, zero, zilch."

    "Increasing the personal allowance would take one million of the lowest-paid out of income tax and give a tax cut to 30 million more".

    Can't see what's not to like with that.

    so what if it means our councils for example can't afford to run days centres for the elderly, repair our schools, look after our mentally ill, inspect our takeaways, clean our parks, repair our roads and the 1000's of other things large and small we take for granted until they're not there.
    I must have missed all these things happening? Will I get a refund on my council tax?
    Just checked what those Tory bastards at KCC were getting rid of in 2014/15. This does't include Medway, or what you Local Council spends either

    Day Centres for the elderly? Nope, still there. £95m
    Repairing schools? No, they're still doing that. £28.7m
    Mentally ill? Thought that was the NHS, but guess what? £224.1m on Nursing and residential care
    Dodgy takeaways? £57.1m on Public Health
    No dog shit in the park? Nope that's gone when the grass was cut. £16.2m
    Potholes - God how we Charlton fans hate pot holes. Nope. another £46.4 on our Highways

    You need to be more specific about the other 1,000s of things those evil facists have got rid of.

    Or are you just scaremongering? Or is it just Dorset where this has all happened?


    http://www.kent.gov.uk/__data/assets/excel_doc/0011/7958/Budget-summary-2014-15.xls
    local.gov.uk/media-releases/-/journal_content/56/10180/5636691/NEWS

    ...it's a year old but hey, you know what, things haven't got any better in the meantime.
    Exactly.

    The LGA saying don't cut our budgets anymore - bit like turkeys pleading for Christmas to be banned. They probably saved £50k PA by getting rid of the press officer, which is why you don't have a report for this year.

    The KCC Budget figures are for this year - and everything you say is going to go has it's own budgetry heading - not as much as we may all like, but it's still there.

    So what exactly is wrong about making 30 million tax payers have a few more bob in their pocket?

    Why just the constant stream of scaremongering?

    your list is, for most part, a statutory requirement for LAs and county councils to provide. that is why they are still there.

    cameron's promises today was just playing to the gallery. unlikely to happen because there won't be enough money to do so. they are struggling to find further areas to cut without removing funding from things their core voters support. but they are desperate as it is likely they won't win the next election so now playing the popular card. dangerous game because when challenged their economics fall to pieces
  • Addickted said:

    Addickted said:

    aliwibble said:

    Most of these were announced this week weren't they?

    Any details of how they would be funded?

    That's a very good point. And how are the Tories going to fund the £7bn cost of the tax cuts they've promised today?
    I suspect the £25bn of planned spending cuts in the first two years of the next Government would make a sizeable hole in that.

    "Somebody working a 30-hour week on the minimum wage would pay no income tax: nothing, zero, zilch."

    "Increasing the personal allowance would take one million of the lowest-paid out of income tax and give a tax cut to 30 million more".

    Can't see what's not to like with that.

    Great! Some people get a few more quid to put towards paying for rising fuel bills, housing costs, food, transport, etc...
    30 million? Some?

    Addickted said:

    aliwibble said:

    Most of these were announced this week weren't they?

    Any details of how they would be funded?

    That's a very good point. And how are the Tories going to fund the £7bn cost of the tax cuts they've promised today?
    I suspect the £25bn of planned spending cuts in the first two years of the next Government would make a sizeable hole in that.

    "Somebody working a 30-hour week on the minimum wage would pay no income tax: nothing, zero, zilch."

    "Increasing the personal allowance would take one million of the lowest-paid out of income tax and give a tax cut to 30 million more".

    Can't see what's not to like with that.

    so what if it means our councils for example can't afford to run days centres for the elderly, repair our schools, look after our mentally ill, inspect our takeaways, clean our parks, repair our roads and the 1000's of other things large and small we take for granted until they're not there.
    I must have missed all these things happening? Will I get a refund on my council tax?
    Just checked what those Tory bastards at KCC were getting rid of in 2014/15. This does't include Medway, or what you Local Council spends either

    Day Centres for the elderly? Nope, still there. £95m
    Repairing schools? No, they're still doing that. £28.7m
    Mentally ill? Thought that was the NHS, but guess what? £224.1m on Nursing and residential care
    Dodgy takeaways? £57.1m on Public Health
    No dog shit in the park? Nope that's gone when the grass was cut. £16.2m
    Potholes - God how we Charlton fans hate pot holes. Nope. another £46.4 on our Highways

    You need to be more specific about the other 1,000s of things those evil facists have got rid of.

    Or are you just scaremongering? Or is it just Dorset where this has all happened?


    http://www.kent.gov.uk/__data/assets/excel_doc/0011/7958/Budget-summary-2014-15.xls
    local.gov.uk/media-releases/-/journal_content/56/10180/5636691/NEWS

    ...it's a year old but hey, you know what, things haven't got any better in the meantime.

    Exactly.

    The LGA saying don't cut our budgets anymore - bit like turkeys pleading for Christmas to be banned. They probably saved £50k PA by getting rid of the press officer, which is why you don't have a report for this year.

    The KCC Budget figures are for this year - and everything you say is going to go has it's own budgetry heading - not as much as we may all like, but it's still there.

    So what exactly is wrong about making 30 million tax payers have a few more bob in their pocket?

    Why just the constant stream of scaremongering?

    Jeez. Firstly it was the first link that popped up that wasn't to a newspaper that you would discount as left wing scaremongering if you even bothered to read it. Secondly it was to the LGA i.e. not a council staff organisation but that of the employers/councillors across all parties. Thirdly, I expect there will be a similar statement along very soon now the party conference seasons over. Forthly, you quote big numbers for KCC but as far as I can remember it is one of the largest LA's in the UK so no surprises really and you may want to remember the size of those budgets when discussing the renumeration of public sector senior management. Lastly, you show an almost a willful ignorance of how local government services are arranged and what services it provides e.g your example linking Environmental Health to the Public Health budget.

    Frankly, you should be very worried about your local services because if you're lucky enough not to have been effected so far you've been very lucky or you've chosen not to notice.
  • Firstly - I read the link.
    Secondly - I know exactly what the LGA is. I work with them every day.
    Thirdly - And I expect that KCC will still provide budget provision for all the issues you appear so concerned about.
    Fourthly - No one has mentioned public sector senior management - not sure why you threw in that red herring.
    I know exactlly how Environmental Health works in a LA - I was an EHO for four years.

    And no - I honestly can't think of a single Local Authority or Statutory Authority cut that has effected me or my family at all - except probably the fortnightly bin collection and that's no hardship.
  • edited October 2014
    I'm glad you read the link but what do you think about the content? You say that you can't think of a single cut that has effected you (apart from the example you go on to give) and that's a good thing as it shows that your council is protecting front line services where it can. But are you seriously suggesting that a local authority service can continue to take cuts to their budget of 40, 50, 60 percent without this being reflected in the quality/quantity provided?

    As an ex-EHO you might be interested to note that some council regulatory services will have been cut by more than 80% over the course of this parliament. You might be lucky and never need to make a complaint or seek advice from them but if not then there would be a real impact (ignoring the proactive/preventative element, that you may never see, totally of course).

    Env Health is not going to be within the figures you quoted for Public Health in KCC, as you well know, making the takeaway inspection a very small, everyday example of the austerity policy still relevent imo...but I suspect you wanted to put a big juicy figure next to something seemingly quite trivial to emphasise your point.
  • red_murph said:

    How was David not elected over him?!

    Both party members and sitting MPs voted heavily in favour of David. Ed got the job because he was heavily supported by Trade Union members' individual preferences (not a block vote by the way). I suppose the Labour Party members and MPs wanted the more pragmatic sensible brother but that Ed had the better true socialist credentials. Hence the "Red Ed" nickname.

    Addickted said:

    aliwibble said:

    Most of these were announced this week weren't they?

    Any details of how they would be funded?

    That's a very good point. And how are the Tories going to fund the £7bn cost of the tax cuts they've promised today?

    ...maybe the cuts to our already struggling public services is a bit of a clue as to "what's not to like"?
    Many of "the cuts" you talk about are merely putting things back to how they more properly should be. During the tenure of the last Govt. approx. an EXTRA 1,000,000 public sector jobs were created. In percentage terms, that's around an additional 16% of the public sector workforce. However much value you place on those additional workers, that level of increase was clearly unsustainable, unaffordable and reckless. Particularly so if you factor in the on-going burden of paying their pensions. If public sector workers wonder why they have not been getting pay rises, they need look no further than the mess made by the last administration. (And perhaps ask whether they want many of the individuals responsible back in power and, in particular, the utterly hopeless Ed Balls as Chancellor of the Exchequer).


  • UKIP's recent by-election victory means the party is on course to win a majority.

    But not at the next election. Based on the fact they have risen from zero MPs to one in 21 years, if they continue addiing one MP every 21 years, they will be the majority party in 8860AD.

    So, we have just over six and a half thousand years to stop them.
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  • edited October 2014
    Chizz said:

    UKIP's recent by-election victory means the party is on course to win a majority.

    But not at the next election. Based on the fact they have risen from zero MPs to one in 21 years, if they continue addiing one MP every 21 years, they will be the majority party in 8860AD.

    So, we have just over six and a half thousand years to stop them.

    They have gone from 3% to 25% polling in 4 years. So by your rationale they will be the only party in 15 years.

    We get it, you don't like UKIP :-)

    On another note they have just announced the format of debates. ITV will allow them on with lib dem labour and Tories. BBC are going labour Tory lib dem, whereas sky and C4 are going to be Ed v Dave.
  • Find it strange they are not having all the leaders on each debate.
    Clegg must be annoyed that Sky/Channel 4 debate is just gonna be Big Dave and Red Ed.
  • MrOneLung said:

    Find it strange they are not having all the leaders on each debate.
    Clegg must be annoyed that Sky/Channel 4 debate is just gonna be Big Dave and Red Ed.

    It's a difficult decision. There's one side of the argument that says all four leaders should be in all the debates. And there's the total opposite that says that Farage shouldn't be there at all because he's not even an MP.

    For my money, I think they've got it about right.

  • The greens must be spitting feathers.

    Or do they realise they really are an irrelevance?
  • Surely after the next election the Lib Dems will be more of an irrelevance than the Greens?
  • they will be the king makers if no majority is obtained....

  • Seems a strange decision to have someone who is not an MP on a debate but yet exclude the Green Party, that being said i would have Farage on all the debates, as the more we actually attempt to get him speaking in a serious way about his parties policies the more hope more people see through his drivel.

    Although i fear too many people don't want to know facts when it comes to something as important as who they vote for.
  • The leader of the Green Party is not an MP either.
  • Gretna - if someone like Branson or Sugar threw their hat into the ring to form a party and polled 20% ratings, they should not be invited because they were not an M.P. ?
  • Very clever headlines this morning from Nigel Farage pledging to keep the Tories in power in order to achieve the referendum on Europe. I read that as 'don't worry Tory voters, your vote for Ukip will not be wasted' .
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  • Conservative / UKIP coalition ? Means Dave getting into bed with a party he has even less respect for than the Lib Dems.
  • Granpa said:

    Very clever headlines this morning from Nigel Farage pledging to keep the Tories in power in order to achieve the referendum on Europe. I read that as 'don't worry Tory voters, your vote for Ukip will not be wasted' .

    This is very clever, a number of Tory MP's are worried about losing their gravy train. If they switch to UKIP they probably have a better chance of holding their marginal seats but also can continue to support Tories in goverenment
  • Conservative / UKIP coalition ? Means Dave getting into bed with a party he has even less respect for than the Lib Dems.

    never thought i'd see "respect for" and "lib dems" in the same sentence. At least labour have an ideology, even if it is in cloud cookoo land
  • Fair points, what i said was kind silly i take it back, i was just blowing off steam as last night i attended a friends wedding, got stuck at table with a couple who proudly boast a plan to vote UKIP, when i questioned them on why, all i got in response was they are not the other 3 & a bunch of Daily Mail/Sun headline sound bites with so little basis in fact they belong in Narnia.

    Im sure plenty of decent honest people do believe in UKIP but my worry is still their that they don't really know what they are voting for and how bad this country will be if UKIP ever got any serious say on how we govern things.

    I can have some respect for anyones political views if they truly believe in them and if they actually understand them but i have yet to meet a UKIP voter who does understand, so with their continued success it is very worrying for me, not as a labour/tory/lib dem voter, i wont say which i am but as someone who does not want to see our country that im proud of, go down a path of ill thought out disaster because of one man that has got a certain percentage of the masses excited for once about politics.
  • Fair points, what i said was kind silly i take it back, i was just blowing off steam as last night i attended a friends wedding, got stuck at table with a couple who proudly boast a plan to vote UKIP, when i questioned them on why, all i got in response was they are not the other 3 & a bunch of Daily Mail/Sun headline sound bites with so little basis in fact they belong in Narnia.

    Im sure plenty of decent honest people do believe in UKIP but my worry is still their that they don't really know what they are voting for and how bad this country will be if UKIP ever got any serious say on how we govern things.

    I can have some respect for anyones political views if they truly believe in them and if they actually understand them but i have yet to meet a UKIP voter who does understand, so with their continued success it is very worrying for me, not as a labour/tory/lib dem voter, i wont say which i am but as someone who does not want to see our country that im proud of, go down a path of ill thought out disaster because of one man that has got a certain percentage of the masses excited for once about politics.

    The trouble is that we are already seeing the next potential government lurch to the right on some issues NOT because it something they believe in IMO or think ultimately is in the UK's interests but because they are chasing votes. Look at the recent plans to ignore ECHR rulings and withdraw from the convention. Putting us on par with Belarus for gods sake.

    Yeah, there's been grumblings and mumblings in the press from time to time when a (rare) case is lost and the "PC gone mad" line is trotted out but there's no sensible, legal reason why the UK should turn its back on such an important piece of constitutional law. And I don't believe it was ever seriously on the table for discussion until UKIP started giving the Tories a scare.
  • Fair points, what i said was kind silly i take it back, i was just blowing off steam as last night i attended a friends wedding, got stuck at table with a couple who proudly boast a plan to vote UKIP, when i questioned them on why, all i got in response was they are not the other 3 & a bunch of Daily Mail/Sun headline sound bites with so little basis in fact they belong in Narnia.

    Im sure plenty of decent honest people do believe in UKIP but my worry is still their that they don't really know what they are voting for and how bad this country will be if UKIP ever got any serious say on how we govern things.

    I can have some respect for anyones political views if they truly believe in them and if they actually understand them but i have yet to meet a UKIP voter who does understand, so with their continued success it is very worrying for me, not as a labour/tory/lib dem voter, i wont say which i am but as someone who does not want to see our country that im proud of, go down a path of ill thought out disaster because of one man that has got a certain percentage of the masses excited for once about politics.

    The trouble is that we are already seeing the next potential government lurch to the right on some issues NOT because it something they believe in IMO or think ultimately is in the UK's interests but because they are chasing votes.
    it's almost as if we live in a democratic society
  • Yes. God forbid our politicians actually do what the majority of the electorate want and not what they want.
  • Yes. God forbid our politicians actually do what the majority of the electorate want and not what they want.

    You like your leaders to follow instead of leading?
  • You like your leaders to follow instead of leading?

    Have a look at what the leaders are offering/promising in the approach of an election, and then tell me that the leaders are not following and offering the things which they think will bring them the votes. That is not leadership.
  • edited October 2014

    Fair points, what i said was kind silly i take it back, i was just blowing off steam as last night i attended a friends wedding, got stuck at table with a couple who proudly boast a plan to vote UKIP, when i questioned them on why, all i got in response was they are not the other 3 & a bunch of Daily Mail/Sun headline sound bites with so little basis in fact they belong in Narnia.

    Im sure plenty of decent honest people do believe in UKIP but my worry is still their that they don't really know what they are voting for and how bad this country will be if UKIP ever got any serious say on how we govern things.

    I can have some respect for anyones political views if they truly believe in them and if they actually understand them but i have yet to meet a UKIP voter who does understand, so with their continued success it is very worrying for me, not as a labour/tory/lib dem voter, i wont say which i am but as someone who does not want to see our country that im proud of, go down a path of ill thought out disaster because of one man that has got a certain percentage of the masses excited for once about politics.

    The trouble is that we are already seeing the next potential government lurch to the right on some issues NOT because it something they believe in IMO or think ultimately is in the UK's interests but because they are chasing votes.
    it's almost as if we live in a democratic society
    Ha, ha. I see your point but the fact is this has never seriously been an option until now. The reason for that is that it is utter nonsense from every viewpoint other than it appeasing a lot of the public whose view of it is formed exclusively by a mainstream media who like nothing better to highlight seemingly bizarre decisions when in actual fact it upholds the UK courts in by far the vast majority of cases it considers.

    Their own Attorney General had been telling them their plans are a nonsense but rather than actually spell out the reality of the situation for the electorate i.e it's served justice pretty well but it's not perfect and there will be some situations you may not agree with, however it ensures some important rights for each and every one of us...they are chasing UKIP votes instead with a populist policy many voters will not have any understanding of beyond it a few radical preachers using it to fight extradition.

    Sorry, but I happen to believe that the right to a fair trial for instance is too important a subject to be used as a political points scoring exercise designed to win back a few disaffected voters to one party.
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Roland Out Forever!