There was an interesting discussion on, I think as I only tuned in midway, Start the Week.
A lady panellist, who has no particular religious axe to grind, suggested that many abhorrent acts carried out in the name of Islam were in fact committed by secularists rather than devout Muslims.
Her thesis essentially is that an element of men love to fight and that "war" however you define it is inevitable. Religion is used as a convenient cloak / justification in the propaganda battle.
It was an interesting perspective which made some sense and I wish I'd heard the full discussion to set it in complete context.
I think that's a very pertinent point. A lot of wars are undertaken in the name of a certain religion or religions. Very few could ever say they were acting in a "holy" manner.
I listened to it as well Len but felt that she had made some rather sweeping generalisations. But essentially she was saying religion can do positive things as well as negative things and it wasn't reasonable to argue that religion was the cause of war and cited the two world wars as an example of this. All a bit washy washy at the end to be honest.
Breaking news on Sky and it sounds like the Kurdish forces requested our first involvement. (Sky source) Which is positive in that it means there's a certain amount of awareness and communications regarding friendly forces on the ground, whereas the US were criticised for a lack of communication which ultimately ended with anti-ISIS forces (including an ambulance) being bombed in Syria.
The RAF engaged ISIS forces in Iraq at around 1pm, after a request from Kurdish Peshmerga forces who were being threatened by a heavy weapons position and an armed pick-up truck.
Interestingly, the Cypriot government had to issue a statement over the weekend - asking it's citizens not to worry about ISIS retaliation over the RAF basing their operations from Cyprus. (Sky)
This also comes as that prize idiot Anjem Choudary (along with a select group of chums) being arrested. There's an interesting article by The Gatestone Institute about some of the bile this man has been spreading, although it comes as no surprise. In the hours leading up to his arrest he was, ironically, preaching his rubbish on twitter - which hopefully adds some more weight to any case against him. (Telegraph)
How easy would it be for the government to issue an ultimatum that we wouldn't allow any persons who wish to go to these areas a way of getting back into our country, being journos or aid workers or future jihadists, surely that way the media coverage would be watered down so not to encourage future freedom fighters and to force the localised countries into fighting their own battles, especially if the US did the same too
As I'm posting from Dalaman airport, I have to say your idea really sucks.
Why do you say that Stu and what has Dalaman airport got to do with it? Why are the countries neighbouring the affected areas not trying to sort it out? Why do we (UK) and the US have to get involved thus putting ourselves at risk of these brainwashed savages?
My understanding is that most going to join the fighting go through Turkey, so my passport will have the exact same stamps as someone travelling to fight.
A lady panellist, who has no particular religious axe to grind, suggested that many abhorrent acts carried out in the name of Islam were in fact committed by secularists rather than devout Muslims.
It really anoys me that religious apologists are given air time in this country to spout this kind of nonsense. Which abhorent acts carried out in the name of Islam in the last 20 years does she think have been carried out by secularists. 9/11?, Lee Rigby?, the beheadings and crucifixions over the last few weeks by ISIS?
Yes, the two World Wars had nothing to do with Religion. Yes, there have been many conflicts over the last 50 years where religion is unfairly blamed for being the cause when it just happens to be a label that can be attached to groups in conflict with one another. The conflict in Northern Ireland had absolutely nothing to do with religion. It was just one of an endless list of conflicts that saw small countries fight for independence against the old european colonial powers. The Palestinian conflict has nothing to do with Religion. It is simply about a population being forcibly ejected from their own land by another small state but one backed by super powers. You could argue that the conflict after the partition of India was not about religion but about land and power. The Hindus and Muslims in this conflict were simply different tribes and the minority did not want to be ruled by the majority. Many of the conflicts in Africa, and the one in the Balkans, similarly are not really about religion (even though religious labels can be used to identify the different sides) but about land, power and hegemony.
But, make no mistake, just as a disaffected German people were consumed by an hysterical mass evil ideology in the 30s the young disaffected, uneducated, ignorant masses in the world today, aided by social media, are falling under the spell of the evil poisonous ideology that is radical Islam. Unspeakable acts were commited in the name of christianity during the crusade wars 3-400 years ago. Should we not refer to them or create feeble arguments about how it wasn't really Christians who commited those acts in case we offend today's Christians?
This also comes as that prize idiot Anjem Choudary (along with a select group of chums) being arrested. There's an interesting article by The Gatestone Institute about some of the bile this man has been spreading, although it comes as no surprise. In the hours leading up to his arrest he was, ironically, preaching his rubbish on twitter - which hopefully adds some more weight to any case against him. (Telegraph)
Anjem Choudary went to the same junior school as my wife. Mulgrave in Woolwich, 50 yards from where Lee Rigby was murdered.
A lady panellist, who has no particular religious axe to grind, suggested that many abhorrent acts carried out in the name of Islam were in fact committed by secularists rather than devout Muslims.
It really anoys me that religious apologists are given air time in this country to spout this kind of nonsense. Which abhorent acts carried out in the name of Islam in the last 20 years does she think have been carried out by secularists. 9/11?, Lee Rigby?, the beheadings and crucifixions over the last few weeks by ISIS?
Yes, the two World Wars had nothing to do with Religion. Yes, there have been many conflicts over the last 50 years where religion is unfairly blamed for being the cause when it just happens to be a label that can be attached to groups in conflict with one another. The conflict in Northern Ireland had absolutely nothing to do with religion. It was just one of an endless list of conflicts that saw small countries fight for independence against the old european colonial powers. The Palestinian conflict has nothing to do with Religion. It is simply about a population being forcibly ejected from their own land by another small state but one backed by super powers. You could argue that the conflict after the partition of India was not about religion but about land and power. The Hindus and Muslims in this conflict were simply different tribes and the minority did not want to be ruled by the majority. Many of the conflicts in Africa, and the one in the Balkans, similarly are not really about religion (even though religious labels can be used to identify the different sides) but about land, power and hegemony.
But, make no mistake, just as a disaffected German people were consumed by an hysterical mass evil ideology in the 30s the young disaffected, uneducated, ignorant masses in the world today, aided by social media, are falling under the spell of the evil poisonous ideology that is radical Islam. Unspeakable acts were commited in the name of christianity during the crusade wars 3-400 years ago. Should we not refer to them or create feeble arguments about how it wasn't really Christians who commited those acts in case we offend today's Christians?
There was an interesting discussion on, I think as I only tuned in midway, Start the Week.
A lady panellist, who has no particular religious axe to grind, suggested that many abhorrent acts carried out in the name of Islam were in fact committed by secularists rather than devout Muslims.
Her thesis essentially is that an element of men love to fight and that "war" however you define it is inevitable. Religion is used as a convenient cloak / justification in the propaganda battle.
It was an interesting perspective which made some sense and I wish I'd heard the full discussion to set it in complete context.
Saying these people are secularists is just ludcrous. They say very clearly that they are fighting for an Islamic state.
What is true, howvere, is that many of them are not all that devout. They identify with Mulsims tribally as a group rather than as a religion. Chris Morris' Four Lions makes this point brilliantly.
. You could argue that the conflict after the partition of India was not about religion but about land and power. The Hindus and Muslims in this conflict were simply different tribes and the minority did not want to be ruled by the majority.
This is completely untrue. There were hardly any ethnic differences in the partitioned areas. Bengali Muslims and Bengali Hindus were all Bengali; Punjabi Sikhs, Muslims and Hindus were all Punjabi; Kashmiri Hindus and Muslims were all Kashmiri.
Indian Muslims were not immigrants to India. They were indigenous converts.
Any chance we can leave NI out of this conversation?
Why though? Do you have a reason for asking that? After all the thread is entitled "...severe terror threats". It's not jihadist specific is it?
Northern Ireland is part of the UK and the threat level there has been at "severe" for donkeys years.
These are extracts from the Report to the House of Commons for last year on the NI security threat:
The threat level in Northern Ireland and Great Britain has remained unchanged since my last statement to Parliament in July 2013. All threat levels, of course, are kept under constant review.
There were 30 national security attacks in Northern Ireland during 2013, over half of which took place between October and December. Had it not been for the tremendous efforts of the PSNI and their security partners in disrupting and preventing further attacks, this figure would undoubtedly have been higher. I thank the PSNI, MIS and An Garda Siochana (AGS), for their relentless and effective pursuit of the very small, but violent, minority who favour terrorism over democracy. I also wish to pay tribute to army technical officers whose expertise and courage has undoubtedly prevented injury in recent months.
As in previous years, attacks have varied in their level of sophistication. Police officers and military personnel have continued to be primary targets for dissident groups. PSNI officers in particular have faced relentless targeting.
The so-called “new IRA” has continued to pose a significant threat over the last six months and has repeatedly demonstrated its lethal intent. In the north-west, the group has been responsible for a number of low-level attacks as well as an attempted mortar attack on a PSNI station. In Belfast it has claimed responsibility for the murder of Kevin Kearney, and conducted a shooting attack against police. However, the actions of this group have been severely hampered by the security forces. Arrests, searches, and seizures of terrorist materiel both north and south of the border have slowed the group’s development and prevented many more attacks. Security force successes have constrained the threat posed by this group.
Oglaigh na hEireann (ONH) was particularly active in the latter half of 2013, demonstrating both its recklessness and its lethal intent with IED attacks against commercial premises in Belfast, and shooting attacks and IEDs against PSNI officers. The group has claimed responsibility for three particularly significant attacks: a vehicle-borne IED which partially functioned close to Victoria square shopping centre; a small IED which functioned in the cathedral quarter on a busy Friday evening; and an under vehicle IED found under a former police officer’s car by the officer and his daughter. Terrorists in Northern Ireland persist in their belief that warning calls somehow absolve them of responsibility for their indiscriminate and dangerous actions. This is not the case and these attacks, with their inadequate and inaccurate warnings, brought us dangerously close to yet another tragic loss of life.
Over the last year, CIRA has continued to splinter into competing factions. Several of these pose a localised threat to security forces, though many are more focused primarily on criminality than terrorism. One particular group in Belfast has caused extensive disruption with a number of hoaxes and pipe bombs. These frustrate the local population, damage local businesses and disrupt lives.
These groups continue to engage in a range of criminal activity including fuel laundering, smuggling, drug dealing, robbery and extortion.
Loyalist paramilitary groups
There remain individuals associated with loyalist paramilitary organisations who continue to be involved in a range of criminal activity, including paramilitary assaults, organised crime such as drug dealing, and intimidation. Continued tensions within and between the two main loyalist paramilitary groups (UVF and UDA) also remain a cause for concern. During 2013 we have witnessed loyalist-related public disorder including protests and security incidents that have taken place outside the offices of democratically elected representatives. There have also been attempts by paramilitaries to gain greater influence and control within loyalist communities.
I appreciate what you're saying about NI falling in to the "Severe Terror Attacks" bracket; and quite rightly - NI has indeed lived with a "Severe" status for years. There was a quote I read recently that put is as "If the stuff that happens every day on the streets of Northern Ireland was happening in London, Birmingham or Manchester then the prime minister would never leave COBRA meetings."; it is a valid comparison, at least in some ways.
However, what I think A-R-T-H-U-R is getting at, and I'm inclined to agree personally, is that we will most likely have members whom served over there (and, if during particular years, that also suggests losing friends.), as well as members who were potentially displaced from their hometowns over it. Not to mention the incidents that happened on our own doorsteps - Chelsea Barracks and Deal Barracks are but two. These factors result in a lot of passion and a topic that is always going to border on the tipping point of polite discussion.
It's also a situation that, staggeringly - considering the geography involved, is actually steeped in myth and legend and a fair amount of ignorance. Combined with the passion mentioned above, this results in an even hotter potato so to speak.
It must also be said that being a football forum, it's a slippery slope before some utter twerp brings Scottish football in to it - or even bases their views on the sympathies of football teams. Something you would hope was comedicaly far-fetched - but in actual fact is ripe; I've had to un-follow silly little kids (and men older than I) on Twitter who spout vile comments about The Troubles despite never having set foot in Ireland (be it Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland). All they base it on is colour of a Scottish football teams shirt.
I think the quality of the discussion so far has been top notch - really quite entertaining, and I wouldn't want to see a good discussion go south for no reason.
I appreciate what you're saying about NI falling in to the "Severe Terror Attacks" bracket; and quite rightly - NI has indeed lived with a "Severe" status for years. There was a quote I read recently that put is as "If the stuff that happens every day on the streets of Northern Ireland was happening in London, Birmingham or Manchester then the prime minister would never leave COBRA meetings."; it is a valid comparison, at least in some ways.
However, what I think A-R-T-H-U-R is getting at, and I'm inclined to agree personally, is that we will most likely have members whom served over there (and, if during particular years, that also suggests losing friends.), as well as members who were potentially displaced from their hometowns over it. Not to mention the incidents that happened on our own doorsteps - Chelsea Barracks and Deal Barracks are but two. These factors result in a lot of passion and a topic that is always going to border on the tipping point of polite discussion.
It's also a situation that, staggeringly - considering the geography involved, is actually steeped in myth and legend and a fair amount of ignorance. Combined with the passion mentioned above, this results in an even hotter potato so to speak.
It must also be said that being a football forum, it's a slippery slope before some utter twerp brings Scottish football in to it - or even bases their views on the sympathies of football teams. Something you would hope was comedicaly far-fetched - but in actual fact is ripe; I've had to un-follow silly little kids (and men older than I) on Twitter who spout vile comments about The Troubles despite never having set foot in Ireland (be it Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland). All they base it on is colour of a Scottish football teams shirt.
I think the quality of the discussion so far has been top notch - really quite entertaining, and I wouldn't want to see a good discussion go south for no reason.
Really really well said, though I do think it is relevant here, and can be discussed if done so with the sense and thought shown in the majority of posts on here.
Good post LR but I do slightly disagree. I think there is a comparison to be had between the two. If people here or elsewhere want to get into throwing insults or saying offensive things then that's different and they should have their posts taken down and banned but it shouldn't be a reason to not discuss what happened/is happening in NI and to draw any parallels with what is going on in the rest of the world.
in 1993 The Major government gave Jihad John's Father asylum from Egypt. He was one of Bin Laden's generals. This man has recently been found guilty of murdering 224 people in bombings of embassies in Africa. Jihad John is a direct result of those sick people who run our country regardless of their parties.
I have full sympathy for the man's family however, and this is in no way condoning the disgusting actions of IS, but if you are heading off to a war zone then you have to be fully prepared that this could happen. It is horrible yes and I have enormous respect for anyone willing to do such a thing but it is hardly a surprise.
I just can not understand how they could kill a man who was helping their fellow muslims. He left his family, to provide aid and comfort to muslims in times of trouble, and this is how they who claim to be loyal muslims repay him. Not only does it do them no good, it also causes further harm to muslims in the region because any other aid workers will now think twice about going over there, thus denying those in need of help! May i also say that i think they are w***ers!! RIP Alan Henning
Comments
There was an interesting discussion on, I think as I only tuned in midway, Start the Week.
A lady panellist, who has no particular religious axe to grind, suggested that many abhorrent acts carried out in the name of Islam were in fact committed by secularists rather than devout Muslims.
Her thesis essentially is that an element of men love to fight and that "war" however you define it is inevitable. Religion is used as a convenient cloak / justification in the propaganda battle.
It was an interesting perspective which made some sense and I wish I'd heard the full discussion to set it in complete context.
The RAF engaged ISIS forces in Iraq at around 1pm, after a request from Kurdish Peshmerga forces who were being threatened by a heavy weapons position and an armed pick-up truck.
Interestingly, the Cypriot government had to issue a statement over the weekend - asking it's citizens not to worry about ISIS retaliation over the RAF basing their operations from Cyprus. (Sky)
This also comes as that prize idiot Anjem Choudary (along with a select group of chums) being arrested. There's an interesting article by The Gatestone Institute about some of the bile this man has been spreading, although it comes as no surprise. In the hours leading up to his arrest he was, ironically, preaching his rubbish on twitter - which hopefully adds some more weight to any case against him. (Telegraph)
Yes, the two World Wars had nothing to do with Religion. Yes, there have been many conflicts over the last 50 years where religion is unfairly blamed for being the cause when it just happens to be a label that can be attached to groups in conflict with one another. The conflict in Northern Ireland had absolutely nothing to do with religion. It was just one of an endless list of conflicts that saw small countries fight for independence against the old european colonial powers. The Palestinian conflict has nothing to do with Religion. It is simply about a population being forcibly ejected from their own land by another small state but one backed by super powers. You could argue that the conflict after the partition of India was not about religion but about land and power. The Hindus and Muslims in this conflict were simply different tribes and the minority did not want to be ruled by the majority. Many of the conflicts in Africa, and the one in the Balkans, similarly are not really about religion (even though religious labels can be used to identify the different sides) but about land, power and hegemony.
But, make no mistake, just as a disaffected German people were consumed by an hysterical mass evil ideology in the 30s the young disaffected, uneducated, ignorant masses in the world today, aided by social media, are falling under the spell of the evil poisonous ideology that is radical Islam. Unspeakable acts were commited in the name of christianity during the crusade wars 3-400 years ago. Should we not refer to them or create feeble arguments about how it wasn't really Christians who commited those acts in case we offend today's Christians?
What is true, howvere, is that many of them are not all that devout. They identify with Mulsims tribally as a group rather than as a religion. Chris Morris' Four Lions makes this point brilliantly.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=AUjHb4C7b94
WARNING there are some horrific scenes in it
After all the thread is entitled "...severe terror threats". It's not jihadist specific is it?
Northern Ireland is part of the UK and the threat level there has been at "severe" for donkeys years.
These are extracts from the Report to the House of Commons for last year on the NI security threat:
The threat level in Northern Ireland and Great Britain has remained unchanged since my last statement to Parliament in July 2013. All threat levels, of course, are kept under constant review.
There were 30 national security attacks in Northern Ireland during 2013, over half of which took place between October and December. Had it not been for the tremendous efforts of the PSNI and their security partners in disrupting and preventing further attacks, this figure would undoubtedly have been higher. I thank the PSNI, MIS and An Garda Siochana (AGS), for their relentless and effective pursuit of the very small, but violent, minority who favour terrorism over democracy. I also wish to pay tribute to army technical officers whose expertise and courage has undoubtedly prevented injury in recent months.
As in previous years, attacks have varied in their level of sophistication. Police officers and military personnel have continued to be primary targets for dissident groups. PSNI officers in particular have faced relentless targeting.
The so-called “new IRA” has continued to pose a significant threat over the last six months and has repeatedly demonstrated its lethal intent. In the north-west, the group has been responsible for a number of low-level attacks as well as an attempted mortar attack on a PSNI station. In Belfast it has claimed responsibility for the murder of Kevin Kearney, and conducted a shooting attack against police. However, the actions of this group have been severely hampered by the security forces. Arrests, searches, and seizures of terrorist materiel both north and south of the border have slowed the group’s development and prevented many more attacks. Security force successes have constrained the threat posed by this group.
Oglaigh na hEireann (ONH) was particularly active in the latter half of 2013, demonstrating both its recklessness and its lethal intent with IED attacks against commercial premises in Belfast, and shooting attacks and IEDs against PSNI officers. The group has claimed responsibility for three particularly significant attacks: a vehicle-borne IED which partially functioned close to Victoria square shopping centre; a small IED which functioned in the cathedral quarter on a busy Friday evening; and an under vehicle IED found under a former police officer’s car by the officer and his daughter. Terrorists in Northern Ireland persist in their belief that warning calls somehow absolve them of responsibility for their indiscriminate and dangerous actions. This is not the case and these attacks, with their inadequate and inaccurate warnings, brought us dangerously close to yet another tragic loss of life.
Over the last year, CIRA has continued to splinter into competing factions. Several of these pose a localised threat to security forces, though many are more focused primarily on criminality than terrorism. One particular group in Belfast has caused extensive disruption with a number of hoaxes and pipe bombs. These frustrate the local population, damage local businesses and disrupt lives.
These groups continue to engage in a range of criminal activity including fuel laundering, smuggling, drug dealing, robbery and extortion.
Loyalist paramilitary groups
There remain individuals associated with loyalist paramilitary organisations who continue to be involved in a range of criminal activity, including paramilitary assaults, organised crime such as drug dealing, and intimidation. Continued tensions within and between the two main loyalist paramilitary groups (UVF and UDA) also remain a cause for concern. During 2013 we have witnessed loyalist-related public disorder including protests and security incidents that have taken place outside the offices of democratically elected representatives. There have also been attempts by paramilitaries to gain greater influence and control within loyalist communities.
Is that not worthy of discussion?
However, what I think A-R-T-H-U-R is getting at, and I'm inclined to agree personally, is that we will most likely have members whom served over there (and, if during particular years, that also suggests losing friends.), as well as members who were potentially displaced from their hometowns over it. Not to mention the incidents that happened on our own doorsteps - Chelsea Barracks and Deal Barracks are but two. These factors result in a lot of passion and a topic that is always going to border on the tipping point of polite discussion.
It's also a situation that, staggeringly - considering the geography involved, is actually steeped in myth and legend and a fair amount of ignorance. Combined with the passion mentioned above, this results in an even hotter potato so to speak.
It must also be said that being a football forum, it's a slippery slope before some utter twerp brings Scottish football in to it - or even bases their views on the sympathies of football teams. Something you would hope was comedicaly far-fetched - but in actual fact is ripe; I've had to un-follow silly little kids (and men older than I) on Twitter who spout vile comments about The Troubles despite never having set foot in Ireland (be it Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland). All they base it on is colour of a Scottish football teams shirt.
I think the quality of the discussion so far has been top notch - really quite entertaining, and I wouldn't want to see a good discussion go south for no reason.
Much appreciated.
RIP Alan Henning
RIP a man with a heart and soul murdered by scum who have no shred of humanity
RIP Alan.
Not only does it do them no good, it also causes further harm to muslims in the region because any other aid workers will now think twice about going over there, thus denying those in need of help!
May i also say that i think they are w***ers!!
RIP Alan Henning
RIP Alan and thank you for trying to help in a way that most of us couldn't even contemplate.