Not meant to be insulting at all, just saying that you can get stuck in your old ways, and not open to change and have the mentality that 'that is not the CAFC way'.
Just because another club does or doesn't do something it doesn't make it right, although just because we don't, doesn't make it wrong.
The ideal is to have both experience and new perspectives surely?
Of course, although not everyone appears open to new ideas, and for that reason I would go with the 'Live and learn' option over the 'round in circles' option
I absolutely agree with the idea that you need new ideas. The funny thing is that what you actually get with people from other football clubs is precisely the "round in circles" options. What we did at Charlton was try to develop support by getting more people into the ground at basic prices and sometimes for nothing. Particularly in the 1990s this worked well for us and allowed us to build support very quickly when the football was inconsistent. In the 2000s we used different approaches to sell seats for £10 that we could not sell on the open market even in the Premier League. It wasn't rocket science, but it worked and the reason it worked is that supporters were heavily engaged with it and helped make it work.
Other clubs have followed us, but generally speaking commercial people still don't want to get their hands dirty with supporters and basic ticket sales, they want to sell lounges and hospitality places with high unit value. So that is where they put resources, which is fine of itself, but even if it works it still leaves you with thousands of empty seats bringing in no revenue. My view is that you start at the bottom and work up by filling the seats. That in turn will allow you to build up the other areas of the business, because 1) you potentially have a bigger pool to draw on and 2) everybody prefers to be in a packed ground, including hospitality customers.
If I have a criticism of KM, it would be that when she says at the Q&A that we can't give tickets away "every week" because it devalues the season tickets that is absolutely at odds with selling season tickets for £150 and completely contrary to our experience over many years. But what you need to have is a structure and a narrative around it.
In a large and well structured organisation the marketing plans and their results going back at least the last 20 years will have been meticulously recorded and stored, so that future management can use it, and hopefully learn from past mistakes. I doubt that most football clubs are sufficiently large or well organised to do this. However it is quite obvious that @Airman Brown has done this himself because he frequently intervenes in discussions on here with strong historical fact based arguments. In big companies marketing managers come and go but market research people tend to stay because they are valued as the keepers of all that knowledge. Similarly the strength of the British Civil service is that they are able to point out to the ambitious new Minister that his brilliant 'new' scheme was tried before 15 years ago and resulted in the resignation of the minister at the time when it all went wrong. It's that kind of knowledge base that has been discarded. However since the keepers of that knowledge are still very much around, I hope that in some way and over time, they can be re-engaged, even if new faces make the final decisions.
I entirely agree that experience has been lost, which is a shame, but I also believe that its a great opportunity to take it forward.
It annoys me that when the club gets something wrong currently, there is very much an 'I told you so' or 'I wouldn't have done it that way' feel about this place....
I cannot wait until a new, exciting (and successful) initiative is put in to place, as I will be interested to hear the responses then.... 'I would have thought of that', 'I told them to do it years ago', ' Anyone could have attracted that extra revenue now that we have a pitch to be proud of, and a manager who likes to play football, and a couple of attacking players that can now score'
I will not be holding my breath for a 'well done'
That works both ways too. Plenty of people are ready to shout down anyone who brings a note of caution to their optimism over untried business models, managers and players. Should we win the league by the end of March they will be saying "I told you so", and if it goes wrong very few of them will be on here with their tail between their legs admitting their mistake - it will more likely be a defiant "Well at least I was positive about it" and possibly blaming the negativity of some other fans for that failure...
Fingers crossed it's the former and we can all be happy with the outcome.
I entirely agree that experience has been lost, which is a shame, but I also believe that its a great opportunity to take it forward.
It annoys me that when the club gets something wrong currently, there is very much an 'I told you so' or 'I wouldn't have done it that way' feel about this place....
I cannot wait until a new, exciting (and successful) initiative is put in to place, as I will be interested to hear the responses then.... 'I would have thought of that', 'I told them to do it years ago', ' Anyone could have attracted that extra revenue now that we have a pitch to be proud of, and a manager who likes to play football, and a couple of attacking players that can now score'
I will not be holding my breath for a 'well done'
That works both ways too. Plenty of people are ready to shout down anyone who brings a note of caution to their optimism over untried business models, managers and players. Should we win the league by the end of March they will be saying "I told you so", and if it goes wrong very few of them will be on here with their tail between their legs admitting their mistake - it will more likely be a defiant "Well at least I was positive about it" and possibly blaming the negativity of some other fans for that failure...
Fingers crossed it's the former and we can all be happy with the outcome.
Correct, I have already told anyone at work that will listen (and most of the people that won't listen) that we are going to romp the league, smash all kinds of records etc.
That is what being a fan is about.
Here, we are not talking necessarily about being a fan, but an employee in a business.
I entirely agree that experience has been lost, which is a shame, but I also believe that its a great opportunity to take it forward.
It annoys me that when the club gets something wrong currently, there is very much an 'I told you so' or 'I wouldn't have done it that way' feel about this place....
I cannot wait until a new, exciting (and successful) initiative is put in to place, as I will be interested to hear the responses then.... 'I would have thought of that', 'I told them to do it years ago', ' Anyone could have attracted that extra revenue now that we have a pitch to be proud of, and a manager who likes to play football, and a couple of attacking players that can now score'
I will not be holding my breath for a 'well done'
That works both ways too. Plenty of people are ready to shout down anyone who brings a note of caution to their optimism over untried business models, managers and players. Should we win the league by the end of March they will be saying "I told you so", and if it goes wrong very few of them will be on here with their tail between their legs admitting their mistake - it will more likely be a defiant "Well at least I was positive about it" and possibly blaming the negativity of some other fans for that failure...
Fingers crossed it's the former and we can all be happy with the outcome.
Correct, I have already told anyone at work that will listen (and most of the people that won't listen) that we are going to romp the league, smash all kinds of records etc.
That is what being a fan is about.
Here, we are not talking necessarily about being a fan, but an employee in a business.
The crossbars idea has merit but forcibly moving fans did not. It was unfortunate (to put it mildly) that the decision to reverse that aspect was taken after the ST launch and not before...but at least it was taken. The £150 season tickets were a limited edition and have sold out. I think this was a great idea as it removes the excuse that someone can't afford it... I'm more interested in how the £250 (now £275) tickets go... If the team is as good on our new pitch as it is on paper then I can see the club promoting these and selling a lot more to new and returning fans. And a final point: the growth of the 90s was remarkable as we weren't always so good on the pitch. But the attraction of new fans since we were relegated from the Premier league has been very poor - as bad as the Selhurst years in terms of only 1% of the fanbase first came to the Valley in each season. Contrast that to 3% in the 90s and premier league seasons. Or 1,000 new fans each and every year as opposed to 350. Essentially now that the direction of travel has changed it shouldn't be too hard for the new management team to leverage the database and rebuild the average gate...after all its not rocket science. Not had a chance to watch the video but look forward to seeing it.
The crossbars idea has merit but forcibly moving fans did not. It was unfortunate (to put it mildly) that the decision to reverse that aspect was taken after the ST launch and not before...but at least it was taken. The £150 season tickets were a limited edition and have sold out. I think this was a great idea as it removes the excuse that someone can't afford it... I'm more interested in how the £250 (now £275) tickets go... If the team is as good on our new pitch as it is on paper then I can see the club promoting these and selling a lot more to new and returning fans. And a final point: the growth of the 90s was remarkable as we weren't always so good on the pitch. But the attraction of new fans since we were relegated from the Premier league has been very poor - as bad as the Selhurst years in terms of only 1% of the fanbase first came to the Valley in each season. Contrast that to 3% in the 90s and premier league seasons. Or 1,000 new fans each and every year as opposed to 350. Essentially now that the direction of travel has changed it shouldn't be too hard for the new management team to leverage the database and rebuild the average gate...after all its not rocket science. Not had a chance to watch the video but look forward to seeing it.
if u watch the video it was mentioned about tickets being given to the trust. They don't want to devalue the season ticket though otherwise there is no incentive to buy one,its common sense if you think about it. I think the club is aware that they need to start attracting more youth/families to the valley and im sure once we start playing better football then the attendances will increase. Even if we do get to the premiership in 2,3,5 yrs I do not think 27000 is a bad attendance personally.
If a few season tickets have to move and few marketing promotions fall flat who really cares as long as that 11 ain't as shit as they have been previously thats the bottom line.
They will live and learn by there mistakes just like every other person when they were new to a new role
The crossbars idea has merit but forcibly moving fans did not. It was unfortunate (to put it mildly) that the decision to reverse that aspect was taken after the ST launch and not before...but at least it was taken. The £150 season tickets were a limited edition and have sold out. I think this was a great idea as it removes the excuse that someone can't afford it... I'm more interested in how the £250 (now £275) tickets go... If the team is as good on our new pitch as it is on paper then I can see the club promoting these and selling a lot more to new and returning fans. And a final point: the growth of the 90s was remarkable as we weren't always so good on the pitch. But the attraction of new fans since we were relegated from the Premier league has been very poor - as bad as the Selhurst years in terms of only 1% of the fanbase first came to the Valley in each season. Contrast that to 3% in the 90s and premier league seasons. Or 1,000 new fans each and every year as opposed to 350. Essentially now that the direction of travel has changed it shouldn't be too hard for the new management team to leverage the database and rebuild the average gate...after all its not rocket science. Not had a chance to watch the video but look forward to seeing it.
You can't put lipstick on a pig. However, the task in 2007-2011 was retention; to hold on to as many existing fans - and especially season-ticket holders - as we could, despite the poor football, which for example was achieved with a miniscule 0.7% reduction in season ticket sales in the season following relegation from the Premier League. That's seven tenths of one percent. Although you have previously claimed otherwise, with no actual information, we also reversed the trend of reducing season ticket sales in 2011/12 and 2012/13.
Interesting where this discussion is going. For me it points to a glaringly obvious aspect of Charlton which absolutely everybody would agree with. Bums on seats. Supporters like it, players like it, media like it, owners like it, caterers like it...everyone positively connected with Charlton ought to be united in trying to get people in. I heed what Airman has said about a development person being more turned on by corporates sales than moving seats in the wings of the West Upper. If this were true, and the nitty gritty support base building would not seem so sexy to a development person, then we have the wrong person. I get the numbers, one corporate sale for £800 would take less effort and sheer grind than the effort 1600 £5 promotional tickets would need to get shifted, and it would also be more glamorous to be involved in probably. However a packed executive box at the back of the East Stand is less impactful on atmosphere, the players and the match than 1600 bodies in the stands. Airman in my view is absolutely right in saying that support at Charlton needs to be built from the base up. The £150 season tickets is a good start, but in my view it is much better for a development person to expend energy in filling the ground as a priority over executive boxes. To make that case, especially to a constituency of people who possibly occupy the 'executive box world', is the main challenge for a development person at Charlton who is sincere about long term and sustained growth. We can surely all buy in to filling the Valley, and that is where a lot of potential for uniting all interest groups at Charlton rests. Of course if we win all the time I suppose the Valley will fill itself.
The crossbars idea has merit but forcibly moving fans did not. It was unfortunate (to put it mildly) that the decision to reverse that aspect was taken after the ST launch and not before...but at least it was taken. The £150 season tickets were a limited edition and have sold out. I think this was a great idea as it removes the excuse that someone can't afford it... I'm more interested in how the £250 (now £275) tickets go... If the team is as good on our new pitch as it is on paper then I can see the club promoting these and selling a lot more to new and returning fans. And a final point: the growth of the 90s was remarkable as we weren't always so good on the pitch. But the attraction of new fans since we were relegated from the Premier league has been very poor - as bad as the Selhurst years in terms of only 1% of the fanbase first came to the Valley in each season. Contrast that to 3% in the 90s and premier league seasons. Or 1,000 new fans each and every year as opposed to 350. Essentially now that the direction of travel has changed it shouldn't be too hard for the new management team to leverage the database and rebuild the average gate...after all its not rocket science. Not had a chance to watch the video but look forward to seeing it.
if u watch the video it was mentioned about tickets being given to the trust. They don't want to devalue the season ticket though otherwise there is no incentive to buy one,its common sense if you think about it. I think the club is aware that they need to start attracting more youth/families to the valley and im sure once we start playing better football then the attendances will increase. Even if we do get to the premiership in 2,3,5 yrs I do not think 27000 is a bad attendance personally.
I agree 100% and selling out the current capacity is a big ask - putting us firmly at #5 in London as per the other thread.
I think the reference to the trust is to the Community Trust - I have heard from various people at the club, including Ben Kensell that they would like more young fans brought in via the schools links enjoyed by that set up
Getting some of the old fans back and winning new ones is certainly the way forwards - just watched some of the video and the key takeaways for me are: 1) The young academy players are a year older - RM 2) The squad will be supplemented by signings from around Europe - KM 3) Vetokele and Gudmundsson look something special - RM on the Portsmouth game 4) Growing the gates will be attempted off the back of a better team and better pitch - KM 5) Further development of the ground was agreed re. planning but this is expensive - the focus will be on building an ST waiting list first so adding to the 27,111 is in reality a long way off. RM 6) They are not specific on when / how to get to the Premier League but a lot will be learnt this season with this fresh start - Both 7) The championship is competitive and known weaknesses in the squad have been addressed - they have landed the players they wanted AND put them on long term deals - KM
Interesting where this discussion is going. For me it points to a glaringly obvious aspect of Charlton which absolutely everybody would agree with. Bums on seats. Supporters like it, players like it, media like it, owners like it, caterers like it...everyone positively connected with Charlton ought to be united in trying to get people in. I heed what Airman has said about a development person being more turned on by corporates sales than moving seats in the wings of the West Upper. If this were true, and the nitty gritty support base building would not seem so sexy to a development person, then we have the wrong person. I get the numbers, one corporate sale for £800 would take less effort and sheer grind than the effort 1600 £5 promotional tickets would need to get shifted, and it would also be more glamorous to be involved in probably. However a packed executive box at the back of the East Stand is less impactful on atmosphere, the players and the match than 1600 bodies in the stands. Airman in my view is absolutely right in saying that support at Charlton needs to be built from the base up. The £150 season tickets is a good start, but in my view it is much better for a development person to expend energy in filling the ground as a priority over executive boxes. To make that case, especially to a constituency of people who possibly occupy the 'executive box world', is the main challenge for a development person at Charlton who is sincere about long term and sustained growth. We can surely all buy in to filling the Valley, and that is where a lot of potential for uniting all interest groups at Charlton rests. Of course if we win all the time I suppose the Valley will fill itself.
All good points. However, I suspect that the difficulty in attracting new supporters is caused by two main factors. Firstly, the admission charges: Even with a reduction in some season ticket prices there appears to be a decrease in sales, yet evidently 'football for a fiver' fills the ground. Is there scope for reducing the walk-up charges? Secondly, and probably more importantly, the quality of the afternoon's entertainment: It's difficult if not impossible to persuade potential fans that our dreary performances over the last two seasons were worth paying much to watch.
I sincerely hope that this season is infinitely better than the last one, it felt like the soul was being wrung out from the club, I hated it , it was not fun at all, too much excitement for the wrong reasons.
In a large and well structured organisation the marketing plans and their results going back at least the last 20 years will have been meticulously recorded and stored, so that future management can use it, and hopefully learn from past mistakes. I doubt that most football clubs are sufficiently large or well organised to do this. However it is quite obvious that @Airman Brown has done this himself because he frequently intervenes in discussions on here with strong historical fact based arguments. In big companies marketing managers come and go but market research people tend to stay because they are valued as the keepers of all that knowledge. Similarly the strength of the British Civil service is that they are able to point out to the ambitious new Minister that his brilliant 'new' scheme was tried before 15 years ago and resulted in the resignation of the minister at the time when it all went wrong. It's that kind of knowledge base that has been discarded. However since the keepers of that knowledge are still very much around, I hope that in some way and over time, they can be re-engaged, even if new faces make the final decisions.
So true about the Civil Service, this is indeed how Sir Humphrey managed to keep his politicians in check in the classic Yes Minister!
I think it is gonna be soooo much harder to increase attendances now than it was in the 90s and obviously we're starting from a higher number There is now pure saturation of the game on TV and I think there is general apathy towards it I've said for a while that I don't think our attendances will improve much more even if the football does , it will prolly halt the slide I don't think we will average 16k of "home" fans even in a promotion season , the Prem is where it will pick up and then hopefully we get a new bunch Addickted for life Good luck to those trying to increase numbers and I'm fully behind all efforts but I don't believe the interest is out there in us for the time being
How did/do those 5 year s/t holders fair in comparison to buying each year? There was talk a while ago that after being promised they'd make a saving but when you actually worked it out, they would be out of pocket.
I think it is gonna be soooo much harder to increase attendances now than it was in the 90s and obviously we're starting from a higher number There is now pure saturation of the game on TV and I think there is general apathy towards it I've said for a while that I don't think our attendances will improve much more even if the football does , it will prolly halt the slide I don't think we will average 16k of "home" fans even in a promotion season , the Prem is where it will pick up and then hopefully we get a new bunch Addickted for life Good luck to those trying to increase numbers and I'm fully behind all efforts but I don't believe the interest is out there in us for the time being
that's been my view for a couple of seasons oohaah, the opportunity to increase floating / neutrals is that more difficult to 20 years ago due to a host of different reasons.
It could steadily improve on minor things, like this a block experiment increasing the atmosphere and a decent season, but it will need either promotion or a Wembley day out before we see anything major. That's why that missed semi fina opportunity last year hurt so much
I think it is gonna be soooo much harder to increase attendances now than it was in the 90s and obviously we're starting from a higher number There is now pure saturation of the game on TV and I think there is general apathy towards it I've said for a while that I don't think our attendances will improve much more even if the football does , it will prolly halt the slide I don't think we will average 16k of "home" fans even in a promotion season , the Prem is where it will pick up and then hopefully we get a new bunch Addickted for life Good luck to those trying to increase numbers and I'm fully behind all efforts but I don't believe the interest is out there in us for the time being
that's been my view for a couple of seasons oohaah, the opportunity to increase floating / neutrals is that more difficult to 20 years ago due to a host of different reasons.
It could steadily improve on minor things, like this a block experiment increasing the atmosphere and a decent season, but it will need either promotion or a Wembley day out before we see anything major. That's why that missed semi fina opportunity last year hurt so much
I agree too. I think the football bubble is ever so slowly bursting. I am much less interested generally than I was, say ten years ago and my kids are not even remotely interested. Neither are a lot of their mates. I largely ducked out of the World Cup and I'll watch MOTD on sky plus nowadays and only watch a live game on telly if I have nothing else to do. Ten years ago I'd have watched a kick about in my local park. I am still more than fascinated by/addicted to Charlton and have renewed my ST after ducking out last season. But I have a decision to make when and if we ever reach the "holy grail" of the premier league which I have grown to despise. There are many more like me. I just don't think there is the interest out there these days. What Charlton have done this year to their credit is to make it affordable, even in a game to game basis and even if you don't sit in a poor seat. Laudable but could end up being a rod for their own backs if the fans don't come back. Let's see what happens if we start winning.
How did/do those 5 year s/t holders fair in comparison to buying each year? There was talk a while ago that after being promised they'd make a saving but when you actually worked it out, they would be out of pocket.
I have finished up out of pocket and think after this seasons prices were announced most people in the scheme were. Personally not bother about the money as I never bought it to make a profit and the priority on away games is not to be sniffed at.
Only jarring thing about the loss was the that the club did state (via / Steve Kavangah) that no one would end up out of pocket. When raised at the Q&A back in March Richard Murray was flippant in response to the question and appeared to take us all for granted. He acted as if he knew very little about the origins of the scheme (e.g claimed we were in the Championship when it started) despite the fact he was Chairman when the the scheme was brought in
Comments
Other clubs have followed us, but generally speaking commercial people still don't want to get their hands dirty with supporters and basic ticket sales, they want to sell lounges and hospitality places with high unit value. So that is where they put resources, which is fine of itself, but even if it works it still leaves you with thousands of empty seats bringing in no revenue. My view is that you start at the bottom and work up by filling the seats. That in turn will allow you to build up the other areas of the business, because 1) you potentially have a bigger pool to draw on and 2) everybody prefers to be in a packed ground, including hospitality customers.
If I have a criticism of KM, it would be that when she says at the Q&A that we can't give tickets away "every week" because it devalues the season tickets that is absolutely at odds with selling season tickets for £150 and completely contrary to our experience over many years. But what you need to have is a structure and a narrative around it.
Fingers crossed it's the former and we can all be happy with the outcome.
That is what being a fan is about.
Here, we are not talking necessarily about being a fan, but an employee in a business.
The £150 season tickets were a limited edition and have sold out. I think this was a great idea as it removes the excuse that someone can't afford it...
I'm more interested in how the £250 (now £275) tickets go... If the team is as good on our new pitch as it is on paper then I can see the club promoting these and selling a lot more to new and returning fans.
And a final point: the growth of the 90s was remarkable as we weren't always so good on the pitch. But the attraction of new fans since we were relegated from the Premier league has been very poor - as bad as the Selhurst years in terms of only 1% of the fanbase first came to the Valley in each season. Contrast that to 3% in the 90s and premier league seasons. Or 1,000 new fans each and every year as opposed to 350.
Essentially now that the direction of travel has changed it shouldn't be too hard for the new management team to leverage the database and rebuild the average gate...after all its not rocket science.
Not had a chance to watch the video but look forward to seeing it.
Is it the best you've EVER seen it?
They will live and learn by there mistakes just like every other person when they were new to a new role
Still a smart idea
Bums on seats.
Supporters like it, players like it, media like it, owners like it, caterers like it...everyone positively connected with Charlton ought to be united in trying to get people in.
I heed what Airman has said about a development person being more turned on by corporates sales than moving seats in the wings of the West Upper. If this were true, and the nitty gritty support base building would not seem so sexy to a development person, then we have the wrong person.
I get the numbers, one corporate sale for £800 would take less effort and sheer grind than the effort 1600 £5 promotional tickets would need to get shifted, and it would also be more glamorous to be involved in probably.
However a packed executive box at the back of the East Stand is less impactful on atmosphere, the players and the match than 1600 bodies in the stands. Airman in my view is absolutely right in saying that support at Charlton needs to be built from the base up.
The £150 season tickets is a good start, but in my view it is much better for a development person to expend energy in filling the ground as a priority over executive boxes.
To make that case, especially to a constituency of people who possibly occupy the 'executive box world', is the main challenge for a development person at Charlton who is sincere about long term and sustained growth.
We can surely all buy in to filling the Valley, and that is where a lot of potential for uniting all interest groups at Charlton rests.
Of course if we win all the time I suppose the Valley will fill itself.
I think the reference to the trust is to the Community Trust - I have heard from various people at the club, including Ben Kensell that they would like more young fans brought in via the schools links enjoyed by that set up
Getting some of the old fans back and winning new ones is certainly the way forwards - just watched some of the video and the key takeaways for me are:
1) The young academy players are a year older - RM
2) The squad will be supplemented by signings from around Europe - KM
3) Vetokele and Gudmundsson look something special - RM on the Portsmouth game
4) Growing the gates will be attempted off the back of a better team and better pitch - KM
5) Further development of the ground was agreed re. planning but this is expensive - the focus will be on building an ST waiting list first so adding to the 27,111 is in reality a long way off. RM
6) They are not specific on when / how to get to the Premier League but a lot will be learnt this season with this fresh start - Both
7) The championship is competitive and known weaknesses in the squad have been addressed - they have landed the players they wanted AND put them on long term deals - KM
There is now pure saturation of the game on TV and I think there is general apathy towards it
I've said for a while that I don't think our attendances will improve much more even if the football does , it will prolly halt the slide
I don't think we will average 16k of "home" fans even in a promotion season , the Prem is where it will pick up and then hopefully we get a new bunch Addickted for life
Good luck to those trying to increase numbers and I'm fully behind all efforts but I don't believe the interest is out there in us for the time being
There was talk a while ago that after being promised they'd make a saving but when you actually worked it out, they would be out of pocket.
It could steadily improve on minor things, like this a block experiment increasing the atmosphere and a decent season, but it will need either promotion or a Wembley day out before we see anything major. That's why that missed semi fina opportunity last year hurt so much
Only jarring thing about the loss was the that the club did state (via /
Steve Kavangah) that no one would end up out of pocket. When raised at the Q&A back in March Richard Murray was flippant in response to the question and appeared to take us all for granted. He acted as if he knew very little about the origins of the scheme (e.g claimed we were in the Championship when it started) despite the fact he was Chairman when the the scheme was brought in
Might be hard to explain that to the missus though if she looks at my search history.