Cole should have gone. I would liked Terry to have gone because our centre backs are crap and he does well with Cahill,but he's retired so nothing we could do about it anyway.
Yes, Terry "retired". So much for his big heart, leadership qualities, blah blah blah...
be fair, he thought his Chelsea career was done, he's 33 and he's got over 70 caps for his country.
i said there was nothing we could do about it but it actually wouldn't surprise me if Roy came calling then he would play, but the FA and Hodgson don't want him.
Terry would have been just as flummoxed by the cross/header for Uruguay's first as Jagielka was, most CBs would have been undone by such a beautiful pass and even if he spotted the danger he is much too slow to have reacted in time. Cahill is essentially a younger, faster Terry, and less of a prick to boot. Jagielka is the weakness for me, I like him but an international class CB he most certainly is not. Roy was right to give the likes of Baines, Barkley etc a chance to learn from experience - he could really have done the same at CB with Curtis Davies (who has improved a LOT) or Caulker, who looked good even in Cardiff's defence.
Terry would have been just as flummoxed by the cross/header for Uruguay's first as Jagielka was, most CBs would have been undone by such a beautiful pass and even if he spotted the danger he is much too slow to have reacted in time. Cahill is essentially a younger, faster Terry, and less of a prick to boot. Jagielka is the weakness for me, I like him but an international class CB he most certainly is not. Roy was right to give the likes of Baines, Barkley etc a chance to learn from experience - he could really have done the same at CB with Curtis Davies (who has improved a LOT) or Caulker, who looked good even in Cardiff's defence.
I think the point of taking Terry would be to play him next to Cahill.
Two 30+ players missing aren't the reason England are failing. It may well have got us a point last night and maybe through to the next round but our problems are deep rooted and will only get worse with the progress other countries are making.
Yes, Terry "retired". So much for his big heart, leadership qualities, blah blah blah...
be fair, he thought his Chelsea career was done, he's 33 and he's got over 70 caps for his country.
i said there was nothing we could do about it but it actually wouldn't surprise me if Roy came calling then he would play, but the FA and Hodgson don't want him.
Wasn't aiming my sarcasm specifically at you Gary, but Gerrard is also 33, has even more caps, and its harder to keep up a Gerrard type game at 33 (as we sadly saw this tourno) than it is a centre back game.
My point is aimed at all this big heart bollocks which I heard endlessly last night from nobs like Eamon Dunphy. Terry took his decision for one reason only. To max out his earnings in the FAPL in his twilight years. Thats how big his heart is.
Trouble is we've put ourselves in this position... Leighton Baines has been challenging Cole for a good number of tournaments now but has never been risked because even when we've Qualified for the knockout rounds before the final match we've not given Baines a go because losing to whoever would result in a back lash for the Manager, the result is that coming into this World Cup its Baines' first even major tournament so is gonna be inexperienced.
Should Italy fail to beat Costa Rica then we need to start Shaw and some of the Youngsters, doesnt matter if we go home with zero points what'll matter is that we ensure some of these kids can get experience for the next time
i.e. Its all well and good blooding these kids in Qualifiers and Friendlies at Wembley but those games are at home and they're in their comfort zone... take them out of that and thats when you know if they're good enough
I think people are missing the point.What we need is a root and branch overhaul of football in this country. We need a limit to the amount of Foreign players playing in our teams. Also a limit to the number of Foreign youngsters in our academies. We need to look at the German model of coaching youngsters. More emphasis needs to be placed on technique and passing. We need the best coaches working in our Academies. This is going to take a long while to bear fruit but the FA and Premier League need to comply to make it work.
The fact that we are even discussing JT and AC shows us the problem. It is simply not about our chances of improving in this tournament with the addition of two 30+ defenders, one of who struggles to make his club side btw.
We have to stop this attitude of looking at the squad and thinking that player or this player should be in because they may be marginally less crap than the next one and focus on why they are all a bit crap in the first place?
In month or two the Premiership will be back, Chile will have won the World Cup and everyone will carry on as before raving about how wonderful the standard of English football is. We will be having the same argument in 4 years time sadly. Except by that stage, if we don't do something NOW it's highly likely that the pool of top English talent will be mostly playing in the Championship or at best Chelsea, Liverpool, Man U development squads.
We have some talented younger players who may perform better in 2016 but after that I can only see it getting worse.
The Premier league argument may well be valid but before the Premier league we had; '70 (qf lose after being 2 up), '74 didn't make, ditto'78, 82( went out through lack goals), 86 (we were rubish and fluked our way throug to the QF where we were undone by Argentina, '90 (our best run in a finals but most for get about the games leading up to Germany in the SF and the Prem years '94 ditto 74& 78, , '98 we couldn't take penalties, '02 1 up playing 10 men we defend. '06 cant remember '10 the Gearmans gave us a footballing lesson.
The Premier league argument may well be valid but before the Premier league we had; '70 (qf lose after being 2 up), '74 didn't make, ditto'78, 82( went out through lack goals), 86 (we were rubish and fluked our way throug to the QF where we were undone by Argentina, '90 (our best run in a finals but most for get about the games leading up to Germany in the SF and the Prem years '94 ditto 74& 78, , '98 we couldn't take penalties, '02 1 up playing 10 men we defend. '06 cant remember '10 the Gearmans gave us a footballing lesson.
Dont want to get into blaming anyone, and I do rate Jagielka and Baines, but anyone with any knowledge of football can see that Terry and Cole would have been better choices in defence, even if they arnt the 'future'
Trouble is we've put ourselves in this position... Leighton Baines has been challenging Cole for a good number of tournaments now but has never been risked because even when we've Qualified for the knockout rounds before the final match we've not given Baines a go because losing to whoever would result in a back lash for the Manager, the result is that coming into this World Cup its Baines' first even major tournament so is gonna be inexperienced.
Should Italy fail to beat Costa Rica then we need to start Shaw and some of the Youngsters, doesnt matter if we go home with zero points what'll matter is that we ensure some of these kids can get experience for the next time
i.e. Its all well and good blooding these kids in Qualifiers and Friendlies at Wembley but those games are at home and they're in their comfort zone... take them out of that and thats when you know if they're good enough
Agree with this.
Have said it to a few people that England just don't have a transitional period like other teams. Which then leads to people wanting to go back on tried and tested players who still would not have saved them.
The whole system in England is just not there to benefit the national team. Until something changes dramatically, then that is the way it will stay. A pointless B league is the best idea thus far.....says it all really.
The tactics and lack of decent ability England players have is why they do not perform. Not because Godin didn't get sent off, or Terry didn't play. The shell of the money ridden Premiership has put the players in a state of thinking they must be great as they are apparently playing in 'the best league in the world',when they simply aren't good enough.
The Premier league argument may well be valid but before the Premier league we had; '70 (qf lose after being 2 up), '74 didn't make, ditto'78, 82( went out through lack goals), 86 (we were rubish and fluked our way throug to the QF where we were undone by Argentina, '90 (our best run in a finals but most for get about the games leading up to Germany in the SF and the Prem years '94 ditto 74& 78, , '98 we couldn't take penalties, '02 1 up playing 10 men we defend. '06 cant remember '10 the Gearmans gave us a footballing lesson.
We have never been that good.
I see you conveniently left out Euro 96.
Well did we do well then?
1-1 against the Swiss 2-1 against the UK B team 4-1 v the Dutch, stand out moment for us in the last 50 years. Beat Spain on pens but really were second best throughout that game Home nation out on pens.
Apart from that the Euros have been worse than our world cup record.
Surely we should be conditioned to failure at Football internationally by now in this country , our Fifa ranking is 10, Uruguay's is 7 , we're there for a reason . something needs to change , but will it?
I think if we can keep bringing the youngsters through , in 2 years time we could be half decent , and fare better in the Euros, but we do need about 5 or 6 players , i really don't rate Glen Johnson defensively , sorry, and think we must get that placed nailed down , before we can be seen to be taken seriously , we haven't got enough quality in depth , Gerrard looks a shadow of the player he was 2 years ago at the Euro's , whether its age has caught up with him / he's playing through an injury , or season fatigue , i don't know , but 4 weeks ago i saw Suarez being wheeled out of a hospital in a wheelchair on Sky Sports News , and i thought he has no chance of making it, let alone scoring 2 goals against England , never underestimate the opposition i guess.
See this is one of the problems we have with English football. We can't balance the desire for a well-rounded team with the hunger for success. The last few years, particularly after the horror show against Germnay in Bloemfontein, we've been talking about casting out the Golden generation. Terry was horrifically exposed by fast young Germans, Barry was nowhere to be seen, Gerrard and Lampard yet again failed to play together. Admittedly the only player to come out with any credit, as always, was Ashley Cole. But then four years later when we've mostly cleared out the muck of perennial international failures we slip up in the group stage and have people clamouring to bring back the old players whose only contribution in an England shirt has been failure.
For me the big problem last night was Gerrard; he got caught putting in a weak tackle for their first (but oddly hasn't faced anywhere near the abuse Beckham did for pulling out of a tackle against Brazil in 2002) and lobbed a perfect through ball for Suarez for their second. He didn't hold the midfield, he didn't create, he didn't do much of anything. But he is undroppable and unsubbable. I was hoping he'd be brought off long before the second Suarez goal but Roy will never bring him off no matter how much of a liability he is. And that's the way it always is; if we play the kids people call for the experienced players, if we play the experienced players people moan that we're not planning for the future. There's never a point where anyone stops and points out the holes and tries to fix them. No cohesion through the age groups, no tactical strategy beyond crowbarring the 'biggest' players into the starting 11. I mean, a midfield two of Henderson and Gerrard?? We deserve what we get.
Comments
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02191f7
i said there was nothing we could do about it but it actually wouldn't surprise me if Roy came calling then he would play, but the FA and Hodgson don't want him.
My point is aimed at all this big heart bollocks which I heard endlessly last night from nobs like Eamon Dunphy. Terry took his decision for one reason only. To max out his earnings in the FAPL in his twilight years. Thats how big his heart is.
Should Italy fail to beat Costa Rica then we need to start Shaw and some of the Youngsters, doesnt matter if we go home with zero points what'll matter is that we ensure some of these kids can get experience for the next time
i.e. Its all well and good blooding these kids in Qualifiers and Friendlies at Wembley but those games are at home and they're in their comfort zone... take them out of that and thats when you know if they're good enough
I assumed he was injured.
Unfortunately, the horse has bolted and there isn't a lot we can do now.
We have to stop this attitude of looking at the squad and thinking that player or this player should be in because they may be marginally less crap than the next one and focus on why they are all a bit crap in the first place?
In month or two the Premiership will be back, Chile will have won the World Cup and everyone will carry on as before raving about how wonderful the standard of English football is. We will be having the same argument in 4 years time sadly. Except by that stage, if we don't do something NOW it's highly likely that the pool of top English talent will be mostly playing in the Championship or at best Chelsea, Liverpool, Man U development squads.
We have some talented younger players who may perform better in 2016 but after that I can only see it getting worse.
Genuinely think the other 21 players will still be in contention for euro 2016.
'70 (qf lose after being 2 up),
'74 didn't make,
ditto'78,
82( went out through lack goals),
86 (we were rubish and fluked our way throug to the QF where we were undone by Argentina,
'90 (our best run in a finals but most for get about the games leading up to Germany in the SF
and the Prem years '94 ditto 74& 78, ,
'98 we couldn't take penalties,
'02 1 up playing 10 men we defend.
'06 cant remember
'10 the Gearmans gave us a footballing lesson.
We have never been that good.
Have said it to a few people that England just don't have a transitional period like other teams. Which then leads to people wanting to go back on tried and tested players who still would not have saved them.
The whole system in England is just not there to benefit the national team. Until something changes dramatically, then that is the way it will stay. A pointless B league is the best idea thus far.....says it all really.
The tactics and lack of decent ability England players have is why they do not perform. Not because Godin didn't get sent off, or Terry didn't play. The shell of the money ridden Premiership has put the players in a state of thinking they must be great as they are apparently playing in 'the best league in the world',when they simply aren't good enough.
Well did we do well then?
1-1 against the Swiss
2-1 against the UK B team
4-1 v the Dutch, stand out moment for us in the last 50 years.
Beat Spain on pens but really were second best throughout that game
Home nation out on pens.
Apart from that the Euros have been worse than our world cup record.
I think if we can keep bringing the youngsters through , in 2 years time we could be half decent , and fare better in the Euros, but we do need about 5 or 6 players , i really don't rate Glen Johnson defensively , sorry, and think we must get that placed nailed down , before we can be seen to be taken seriously , we haven't got enough quality in depth , Gerrard looks a shadow of the player he was 2 years ago at the Euro's , whether its age has caught up with him / he's playing through an injury , or season fatigue , i don't know , but 4 weeks ago i saw Suarez being wheeled out of a hospital in a wheelchair on Sky Sports News , and i thought he has no chance of making it, let alone scoring 2 goals against England , never underestimate the opposition i guess.
For me the big problem last night was Gerrard; he got caught putting in a weak tackle for their first (but oddly hasn't faced anywhere near the abuse Beckham did for pulling out of a tackle against Brazil in 2002) and lobbed a perfect through ball for Suarez for their second. He didn't hold the midfield, he didn't create, he didn't do much of anything. But he is undroppable and unsubbable. I was hoping he'd be brought off long before the second Suarez goal but Roy will never bring him off no matter how much of a liability he is. And that's the way it always is; if we play the kids people call for the experienced players, if we play the experienced players people moan that we're not planning for the future. There's never a point where anyone stops and points out the holes and tries to fix them. No cohesion through the age groups, no tactical strategy beyond crowbarring the 'biggest' players into the starting 11. I mean, a midfield two of Henderson and Gerrard?? We deserve what we get.