Hmmm... Its very tough to make an articulate argument as we have so little information to go on... I have fears that RD is trying to break even with the club as per the comments coming from the Burnley chairman I think it was, now to do that is very simple, fire everyone and cut all wages off the bottom line, but obviously we would get relegated, so how close to the bone to go whilst still maintaining our championship status, I also have some nagging feeling he will o this until the fair play boys come hunting the Cardiff's of this world an qpr's who's have overspent in view of this giving us some kind of advantage... BUT this is all speculation of course hence why these conversations go round and round...
So for this season I don't expect much at all, a relegation battle for sure, and us not breaking the into the top half of the table, we have a very likable but inexperience manager who would come very cheap an a squad that has been smashed to bits, and a chairman who's spending budget will be in the bottom 5 in the division...
Also have sponsors all over our shirts makes me despair... losing class by the week...
Not sure I'd use the term Tipping Point, but for me the end of the forthcoming season will be a good time to take stock. By then we'll have had four full seasons under "external ownership" rather than the previous "fan friendly" regime and the second runner with the Baton will be well into his stride.
In my mind there are a wide range of possible outcomes. At the positive end of the spectrum, we'll have survived another season in the Championship and the Club will be in significantly better shape, both on and off the field, than it has been since relegation from the Premier League, perhaps with the beginnings of an exciting young team playing more attractive football than we've seen for some time. On the other hand, we could be back in Division One and looking at a complete train wreck.
For me, the Jury is out, but I feel that a positive verdict is the more likely outcome. Next season could well be a bumpy ride though and no doubt there'll be opportunity for both optimists and pessimists to have their day in the sun. Unfortunately, for us and Roland Duchatelet, small margins can and likely will make a huge difference to the outcome. A good signing versus a disappointment, Harry Lennon comes good or he doesn't. A penalty or two at key moments. Etc. I do think we'll need Duchatelet to get a bit lucky.
Didn't know which thread to put this in - but what is confusing me a bit is that contract negotiations seem (we dont know for sure) to be the stumbling block (hamer, morro, COG, poyet?). Surely as an owner of a club in an unknown league you'd spend the 6 months you had until the end of the season (or preferably before you bought the club) getting a sense as to how much players at other clubs in the champ are being payed in wages (this must be available if you're on the inside) and then base your decisions on that. Either it's a stubbornness from RD that he won't pay above a certain amount (in that case I guess we can expect lots of foreign imports on lower wages who may or may not be up to the standard) or he genuinely underestimated how much it costs to build a team capable of being comfortable in the champ and he won't/can't pay the required amounts. I can't see him luring players with the 'I'll pay you less but look at what a great club you're coming to' given the media releases around CP, Riga, Dyer and Hamer and how he has been portrayed as handling that. I guess the next few weeks/months will tell - my stance at the moment is quietly cautious!
Am currently on the negative side of the coin (if you hadn't guessed!) For Roland to switch me over I need to see the pros outweighing the cons. They are not doing that at the moment and as soon as they do I will be a little optimistic flower
Am currently on the negative side of the coin (if you hadn't guessed!) For Roland to switch me over I need to see the pros outweighing the cons. They are not doing that at the moment and as soon as they do I will be a little optimistic flower
I'm a don't know at present so I'm there for tipping, however there are a couple of things in Mutts arguement with which I take exception
the sales of two of our best players - assume this to be Yann and Stephens, in the case of Stephens he was replaced by Poyet which IMHO improved the team so a good move as we got a fee for a contract about to expire. In the case of Yann yes they did get it wrong as they underestimated the skill level of our league and replaced him with inferior players, a mistake which they now admit.
Hamer and Dervite claiming they were made laughable offers - this is not a known fact and until we know of their replacements (if any) it is hard to judge, and anyway was Hamer that good a goalie and whilst I was an admirer of Dervite quite a few of us were not.
To me the most negative thing done by the new regime was not to keep Riga, but then again I have no idea what Peeters is like except my first impression from his photo is a thug, sorry Mr P but first impressions do count.
However I am going to try and not tip one way or the other until 10 games into the new season, but having said that I am uneasy about the state of our club but the reason for that can be laid as much at the door of the Slater/Jemenez regime as it can at the Belgian experiment. It just doesn't feel like my Charlton anymore and please don't ask me to define "my Charlton" because I can't, it is just an uneasy feeling within me about the way the club is going. I do applaud the shirt sponsorship deal and the new pitch but as for the academy that is a Varney plan and I don't believe a cost to the Belgiums.
So in summary my tipping point will be 10 games into the new season, I hope.
No idea what to think until I see what sort of squad we have and how the new coach handles himself ... at the moment there are just too many variables to make a judgement. Everyone should have an idea of where they expect to stand by the time the season starts or soon after ...
I have concerns but am looking for positives. I don't think we can completely judge RD on just 6 months. This time 3 years ago we had signed Hollands, Pritchard and Sullivan, most signings came in late June and early July. Some had made up their mind that there was no way Powell could take us up.
It's clear to everyone the transfer activity in January wasn't good enough and I'd expect RD and his people to have seen that. They must surely know if they get it wrong we'll be lucky to stay in this league. There's no benefit to anyone in sending us more players like Nego and Thuram who either aren't suited to English football and/or don't have the quality required.
On O'Grady I can understand why RD wouldn't want to overpay. To move south I would imagine he wants a long term contract (say 3 or 4 years) and a decent Championship wage. Along with the transfer fee that's a lot on a player that should do well but has only proven himself at this level in the last year or two.
Wait and see for me, hopefully we'll start to see players come in soon and that should give us an idea of the direction we're heading.
The massive positive is that the club exists, and does not seem to be about to go into administration. Given that Roland wasn't the only possibility it may have been the case under any new regime. I also harbour a notion that to try to break even is a good thing. I mean is it really a good idea to ask a rich person to give all their dosh to Charlton for my benefit? Of course promotion to the premier league pays it all off at a stroke...or does it? Cardiff will have a very interesting balance sheet over the past two seasons, even Crystal Palace will eventually have to face up to the Selhurst Park issue which won't be cheap. We remain (more than we anticipated) a rich mans plaything, and are as dependent on Roland as chicks in a nest. Indeed we need Roland to be right about his plans. The analysis of Roland's actions, both from abroad and what has happened at Charlton will continue, but our Belgium friends have already warned us that we won't understand his decision making anyway. Perhaps it will all boil down to results, and seeing as how Mr Bob has only a one year contract it signals that those results have to materialise on a pretty tight time frame.
I'm on the verge of tipping point already, as some of you (if not most!) have witnessed on here already since January!
But…to make me completely suicidal we'd have to let Morrison and Poyet go without experienced and adequate, if not better (difficult in both cases) replacements. The easiest thing to do is sign those two up. Charlton are not going to be able to attract a better Championship centre half than Morrison (I doubt Gomez is ready yet but he could prove me wrong this season) and we certainly won't be able to get better than Poyet, because we'd have to spend money to do so - something Duchatelet seems extremely reluctant to do unless it's a sub standard Polish forward who isn't even god enough for the U21s.
Fully expecting red shorts for the new home kit today as well. Although there are much bigger problems here than the colour of our shorts, it is still that tiny bit of tradition slowly being stripped away.
I do not get to as many games as most of you but to me Morrison is not the best of defenders, I agree that he is good at clearing the ball but he tends to clear it to the opposition unlike Dervite who tried to set up an attack. I'm sure that there are other central defenders as good or better. If Poyet goes it will be as much the fault of the previous regime when didn't sign him up for longer as it is of this one in not convincing him to stay.
Morrison going would be a big blow for me, I've accepted Poyet is off. I think off the pitch things look like they are being run reasonably well and we seem stable, but I'm far from convinced there is much to be positive about on it. Inexperienced coach with short contract, lack of quality in the squad and no clue who is directing things from a football perspective. Think we'll know after 4 or 5 games whether we'll be competitive or not.
For me, I thoroughly applaud RD's stated goal of getting the club to break even, based on producing our own young players and letting them play. In terms of the concept of 'my Charlton', this is, to me, exactly what Charlton has always been about. We should not continue to expect to keep finding some random billionaire to keep putting his hand in his pocket each year to subsidise millionaire players and massive financial losses. Of course, in terms of 'tipping points' the difficulty is that this is a very long-term ambition, so hard to judge. So, all I can say is that as long as I see what I would consider to be the infrastructure of the club (youth set-up, finances, ground, facilities etc) invested in and progressed, then I will continue to be happy. I would, however, also like to see the manager/head coach/director of football firmly in place as a mouth-piece, to the fans, for the organisation. I it is inevitable that we will see more bad press as RD attempts to drive down the wage bill - I completely understand that players will be 'offended' by the contracts offered, but everyone in football will have to get used to that under FFP. My fear does not come from RD or from anyone within the club, but from the FA and the prospect that they might water FFP down in some way. How, for example, is it possible that Bolton, a club in absolutely massive debt, and losing more each year, can outbid us or, indeed, anyone on a contract? Why are they not desperately cutting their wage bill? Are they really gambling everything on being promoted to the Premiership this season, because that does not seem very likely.
In terms of performance on the pitch, he could still change my opinion. The evidence so far has been overwhelmingly negative, but I have to acknowledge that his other clubs seem to be performing to a satisfactory level. Maybe he underestimated the standard of player required in the Championship to start with and we'll see better players coming in this summer than the ones brought in so far. I'm not optimistic, and we need to not be in a relegation battle next season (at the very least) in order for my opinion to change.
In terms of identity, he has lost me completely. Chris Powell gave us our Charlton back, and Duchatelet has rapidly set about taking it away again. Players remembered with the fondness that we recall the likes of Rufus, Kinsella, Kiely, Powell and more recently Kermorgant (to name just a very small selection), players who clearly cherish representing Charlton and see it as more than just a wage, do not arrive on loan from Standard Liege reserves.
The "heavy lifting" to get us back into the championship and keep us there has been done and the club has been able to let go many players who helped the journey but won't be able to help so much next season. We are also well ahead of the curve on FFP and all those clubs signing our players are overspending - Leicester, Bolton, Bournemouth are all losing a fortune which makes it both hard for their owners to exit and sooner or later they will have to cut back - this may well be Bournemouth's last active window for a while and the average age of their squad is over 28.
So we have a fresh start and ideally Duchatelet and Meire are fully aware of the calibre of player required and the budgets. No one thinks we will get into the top 8 but success for me would be the middle 8 well away from relegation and more reductions in losses to stay ahead of the FFP limits which will be coming down every season.
I believe there are plenty of 25 year olds around Europe who can do a job for us and really hope Poyet and Gomez sign up. CAFC is the academy plus a few contractors coming in to help out. I try not to get too worried if some of these players want out as others pay more. As long as the academy keeps winning the u18 league then I know there will be more talent arriving in SE7 every season.
So if Gomez signs, Pope can carry it off and we sign four or five decent players (like the Liege midfielder) then I'm good. Especially if the crowds increase (due to lower prices) and we can see Ajdarevic and Sordell come back.
As others have stated we will know by end September how we are doing. However if we are destined to finish below this season's 18th then that is a fail for me. We need our young squad to be developing and winning games not fighting relegation.
60-40 against this current regime at the moment (which is an improvement on the last lot). Ultimately, and obviously, results will play the main part in me tipping. If we're in the bottom six by November I will conclude that RD is bad news for us. If we're playing well, Big Bob looks like he knows what he's doing and we are comfortably mid-table then I will probably accept the new order of things. For me, Charlton is mainly about the the old routines and spending time with my daughter. On that basis I even enjoyed last season.
no tipping point but i find myself moving from the "RD saved us and give him full support" to the " this isnt CAFC any more"
i cant see that Poyet will sign with a nobody as our new manager ---"blah blah never seen him manage boolx" and the same for Morrison --we just wont pay the money
We all know that we will sign 10 ---whoTheFuckAreTheys "blah blah never seen them play bollox" ----and HOPE that in some way we will survive-----shit close season to follow a shit season with a shit season to look forward to, and a shit kit.
Ever watch a programme called Wheeler dealers? Mike brewer buys an old car gives to his mechanic Ed to fix up and they sell it on for a profit. I still think RD maybe doing this with us. He is reducing expenditure, improving the ground and once we are stable in the championship will cash out and take his bit of profit.
Interested to see that some of the more vocal pro RD posters have swerved this thread altogether?
I think it's all too easy for anyone to take it personally and then perhaps dish it out. The thing is that RD has deep pockets so he can commit to new capex overnight like the pitch. And the academy cat 1 plan will need underwriting plus funding for additional coaches etc. But CAFC is leaving far too many fans guessing about what's next - what I can see is that we've dodged a bullet or two over the last seven years and there is potential to climb the league... Which I think will pay for itself with better crowds and bigger transfer fees coming in.
I understand why there are conflicting views expressed with such passion. But I am happy to wait and see regardless of the negative and the positive views expressed on CL. Things have changed but we have been saved from the slippery path set by the previous owners, we stayed up and the pitch is being restored. Endless rumour and speculation keeps the site busy but doesn't answer any questions. I for one accept that patience is now required and, for me, any futher judgements will only be made when the squad has been brought together and the season started. Boring I know but that's how I see it.
I admire those who have patience and are willing to see out the season or get to Christmas before judging. I would love to be in that camp as negativity is not my default mode.
Therefore, the fact that I am feeling so concerned is a worry on a personal level. I am trying not to read negative things in every soundbite I hear, story that is leaked or signing that doesn't come off. I want to be posting about how excited I am under the new regime, about how confident I feel in RD and his approach and how much I am looking forward to a new manager at the helm who has earned the job.
But as every day passes, I worry more. I question whether I am deliberately looking for faults. Does the amount of white on the new shirt suggest a further shift from our roots and history? Probably not, but such doubts present themselves and linger.
Comments
So for this season I don't expect much at all, a relegation battle for sure, and us not breaking the into the top half of the table, we have a very likable but inexperience manager who would come very cheap an a squad that has been smashed to bits, and a chairman who's spending budget will be in the bottom 5 in the division...
Also have sponsors all over our shirts makes me despair... losing class by the week...
So I spose reading that I'm pretty negative...
And people say he doesn't read CL or care what we think
In my mind there are a wide range of possible outcomes. At the positive end of the spectrum, we'll have survived another season in the Championship and the Club will be in significantly better shape, both on and off the field, than it has been since relegation from the Premier League, perhaps with the beginnings of an exciting young team playing more attractive football than we've seen for some time. On the other hand, we could be back in Division One and looking at a complete train wreck.
For me, the Jury is out, but I feel that a positive verdict is the more likely outcome. Next season could well be a bumpy ride though and no doubt there'll be opportunity for both optimists and pessimists to have their day in the sun. Unfortunately, for us and Roland Duchatelet, small margins can and likely will make a huge difference to the outcome. A good signing versus a disappointment, Harry Lennon comes good or he doesn't. A penalty or two at key moments. Etc. I do think we'll need Duchatelet to get a bit lucky.
I can't see him luring players with the 'I'll pay you less but look at what a great club you're coming to' given the media releases around CP, Riga, Dyer and Hamer and how he has been portrayed as handling that.
I guess the next few weeks/months will tell - my stance at the moment is quietly cautious!
the sales of two of our best players - assume this to be Yann and Stephens, in the case of Stephens he was replaced by Poyet which IMHO improved the team so a good move as we got a fee for a contract about to expire. In the case of Yann yes they did get it wrong as they underestimated the skill level of our league and replaced him with inferior players, a mistake which they now admit.
Hamer and Dervite claiming they were made laughable offers - this is not a known fact and until we know of their replacements (if any) it is hard to judge, and anyway was Hamer that good a goalie and whilst I was an admirer of Dervite quite a few of us were not.
To me the most negative thing done by the new regime was not to keep Riga, but then again I have no idea what Peeters is like except my first impression from his photo is a thug, sorry Mr P but first impressions do count.
However I am going to try and not tip one way or the other until 10 games into the new season, but having said that I am uneasy about the state of our club but the reason for that can be laid as much at the door of the Slater/Jemenez regime as it can at the Belgian experiment. It just doesn't feel like my Charlton anymore and please don't ask me to define "my Charlton" because I can't, it is just an uneasy feeling within me about the way the club is going. I do applaud the shirt sponsorship deal and the new pitch but as for the academy that is a Varney plan and I don't believe a cost to the Belgiums.
So in summary my tipping point will be 10 games into the new season, I hope.
It's clear to everyone the transfer activity in January wasn't good enough and I'd expect RD and his people to have seen that. They must surely know if they get it wrong we'll be lucky to stay in this league. There's no benefit to anyone in sending us more players like Nego and Thuram who either aren't suited to English football and/or don't have the quality required.
On O'Grady I can understand why RD wouldn't want to overpay. To move south I would imagine he wants a long term contract (say 3 or 4 years) and a decent Championship wage. Along with the transfer fee that's a lot on a player that should do well but has only proven himself at this level in the last year or two.
Wait and see for me, hopefully we'll start to see players come in soon and that should give us an idea of the direction we're heading.
I also harbour a notion that to try to break even is a good thing. I mean is it really a good idea to ask a rich person to give all their dosh to Charlton for my benefit?
Of course promotion to the premier league pays it all off at a stroke...or does it? Cardiff will have a very interesting balance sheet over the past two seasons, even Crystal Palace will eventually have to face up to the Selhurst Park issue which won't be cheap.
We remain (more than we anticipated) a rich mans plaything, and are as dependent on Roland as chicks in a nest. Indeed we need Roland to be right about his plans.
The analysis of Roland's actions, both from abroad and what has happened at Charlton will continue, but our Belgium friends have already warned us that we won't understand his decision making anyway.
Perhaps it will all boil down to results, and seeing as how Mr Bob has only a one year contract it signals that those results have to materialise on a pretty tight time frame.
But…to make me completely suicidal we'd have to let Morrison and Poyet go without experienced and adequate, if not better (difficult in both cases) replacements. The easiest thing to do is sign those two up. Charlton are not going to be able to attract a better Championship centre half than Morrison (I doubt Gomez is ready yet but he could prove me wrong this season) and we certainly won't be able to get better than Poyet, because we'd have to spend money to do so - something Duchatelet seems extremely reluctant to do unless it's a sub standard Polish forward who isn't even god enough for the U21s.
Fully expecting red shorts for the new home kit today as well. Although there are much bigger problems here than the colour of our shorts, it is still that tiny bit of tradition slowly being stripped away.
**stands by for more abuse**
Of course, in terms of 'tipping points' the difficulty is that this is a very long-term ambition, so hard to judge. So, all I can say is that as long as I see what I would consider to be the infrastructure of the club (youth set-up, finances, ground, facilities etc) invested in and progressed, then I will continue to be happy.
I would, however, also like to see the manager/head coach/director of football firmly in place as a mouth-piece, to the fans, for the organisation.
I it is inevitable that we will see more bad press as RD attempts to drive down the wage bill - I completely understand that players will be 'offended' by the contracts offered, but everyone in football will have to get used to that under FFP.
My fear does not come from RD or from anyone within the club, but from the FA and the prospect that they might water FFP down in some way. How, for example, is it possible that Bolton, a club in absolutely massive debt, and losing more each year, can outbid us or, indeed, anyone on a contract? Why are they not desperately cutting their wage bill? Are they really gambling everything on being promoted to the Premiership this season, because that does not seem very likely.
In terms of identity, he has lost me completely. Chris Powell gave us our Charlton back, and Duchatelet has rapidly set about taking it away again. Players remembered with the fondness that we recall the likes of Rufus, Kinsella, Kiely, Powell and more recently Kermorgant (to name just a very small selection), players who clearly cherish representing Charlton and see it as more than just a wage, do not arrive on loan from Standard Liege reserves.
We are also well ahead of the curve on FFP and all those clubs signing our players are overspending - Leicester, Bolton, Bournemouth are all losing a fortune which makes it both hard for their owners to exit and sooner or later they will have to cut back - this may well be Bournemouth's last active window for a while and the average age of their squad is over 28.
So we have a fresh start and ideally Duchatelet and Meire are fully aware of the calibre of player required and the budgets. No one thinks we will get into the top 8 but success for me would be the middle 8 well away from relegation and more reductions in losses to stay ahead of the FFP limits which will be coming down every season.
I believe there are plenty of 25 year olds around Europe who can do a job for us and really hope Poyet and Gomez sign up. CAFC is the academy plus a few contractors coming in to help out. I try not to get too worried if some of these players want out as others pay more. As long as the academy keeps winning the u18 league then I know there will be more talent arriving in SE7 every season.
So if Gomez signs, Pope can carry it off and we sign four or five decent players (like the Liege midfielder) then I'm good. Especially if the crowds increase (due to lower prices) and we can see Ajdarevic and Sordell come back.
As others have stated we will know by end September how we are doing. However if we are destined to finish below this season's 18th then that is a fail for me. We need our young squad to be developing and winning games not fighting relegation.
For me, Charlton is mainly about the the old routines and spending time with my daughter. On that basis I even enjoyed last season.
i cant see that Poyet will sign with a nobody as our new manager ---"blah blah never seen him manage boolx" and the same for Morrison --we just wont pay the money
We all know that we will sign 10 ---whoTheFuckAreTheys "blah blah never seen them play bollox" ----and HOPE that in some way we will survive-----shit close season to follow a shit season with a shit season to look forward to, and a shit kit.
But CAFC is leaving far too many fans guessing about what's next - what I can see is that we've dodged a bullet or two over the last seven years and there is potential to climb the league... Which I think will pay for itself with better crowds and bigger transfer fees coming in.
Therefore, the fact that I am feeling so concerned is a worry on a personal level. I am trying not to read negative things in every soundbite I hear, story that is leaked or signing that doesn't come off. I want to be posting about how excited I am under the new regime, about how confident I feel in RD and his approach and how much I am looking forward to a new manager at the helm who has earned the job.
But as every day passes, I worry more. I question whether I am deliberately looking for faults. Does the amount of white on the new shirt suggest a further shift from our roots and history? Probably not, but such doubts present themselves and linger.